As much as I like Cortana as a character, there's no need for her to be a naked blue woman in Halo 4. I much preferred her original look.
Minor nitpick, but her original look has her naked as well.
There is a big difference, though. While she was naked originally too, she had less the appearance of a naked human, and was certainly nowhere near as sexualised as she appears in later games.
It's the texturing. The texturing in 1-3 make her appear like an ephemeral hologram. The texturing in 4 makes it look like a woman wearing a skintight jumpsuit.
Proportionally, Cortana 4 is the only one that looks like a real (albeit heavily sexualized) human being. The other 3 all have comic book proportions (super long legs that never touch, slightly curved back to emphasis breats, very high breasts, etc.). That might be partially why she looks so sexual in 4.
Again, along the same lines as having them all wear clothes, let's assume similar texturization. Does this change the narrative any?
As much as I like Cortana as a character, there's no need for her to be a naked blue woman in Halo 4. I much preferred her original look.
Minor nitpick, but her original look has her naked as well.
There is a big difference, though. While she was naked originally too, she had less the appearance of a naked human, and was certainly nowhere near as sexualised as she appears in later games.
It's the texturing. The texturing in 1-3 make her appear like an ephemeral hologram. The texturing in 4 makes it look like a woman wearing a skintight jumpsuit.
Proportionally, Cortana 4 is the only one that looks like a real (albeit heavily sexualized) human being. The other 3 all have comic book proportions (super long legs that never touch, slightly curved back to emphasis breats, very high breasts, etc.). That might be partially why she looks so sexual in 4.
Again, along the same lines as having them all wear clothes, let's assume similar texturization. Does this change the narrative any?
There was no value judgement in my statement. I was just presenting my opinion as to why some find 4 worse than 1. There's no reason why they couldn't just use a head instead of an entire body. Or going back further into Bungie's days, the AIs had no physical form in the Marathon series, and the game did not suffer for it.
Seems to me the comic was more inspired by the attitude caused by the shitstorm, not the actual series at the center of it. It's replying directly to the idea that there is no sexism in the industry and guys are just as objectified. It doesn't actually call out or mention this other comic at all. The overall message is very very general. It would be different if names were named but they weren't. I can find hundreds of posts saying the exact same thing as the "fat/balding/unattractive guy". You know, the guy talking to the short dumpy woman with bad hair. Funny how they didn;t mention that either.
Do you mean the woman with a prominent clavicle and defined jaw line, big breasts, large eyes, a button nose and a hair style that perfectly frames her head? I think we have different definitions of short and dumpy
As much as I like Cortana as a character, there's no need for her to be a naked blue woman in Halo 4. I much preferred her original look.
Minor nitpick, but her original look has her naked as well.
There is a big difference, though. While she was naked originally too, she had less the appearance of a naked human, and was certainly nowhere near as sexualised as she appears in later games.
It's the texturing. The texturing in 1-3 make her appear like an ephemeral hologram. The texturing in 4 makes it look like a woman wearing a skintight jumpsuit.
Proportionally, Cortana 4 is the only one that looks like a real (albeit heavily sexualized) human being. The other 3 all have comic book proportions (super long legs that never touch, slightly curved back to emphasis breats, very high breasts, etc.). That might be partially why she looks so sexual in 4.
Again, along the same lines as having them all wear clothes, let's assume similar texturization. Does this change the narrative any?
There was no value judgement in my statement. I was just presenting my opinion as to why some find 4 worse than 1. There's no reason why they couldn't just use a head instead of an entire body. Or going back further into Bungie's days, the AIs had no physical form in the Marathon series, and the game did not suffer for it.
I'm not disagreeing with the particulars of this post, nor am I really trying to push on you or darleysam. The main reason why I am rephrasing the argument is so that people who might not get what the real underlying problems are will be forced to think about things beyond how things are textured or the existence or non-existence of clothes.
Seems to me the comic was more inspired by the attitude caused by the shitstorm, not the actual series at the center of it. It's replying directly to the idea that there is no sexism in the industry and guys are just as objectified. It doesn't actually call out or mention this other comic at all. The overall message is very very general. It would be different if names were named but they weren't. I can find hundreds of posts saying the exact same thing as the "fat/balding/unattractive guy". You know, the guy talking to the short dumpy woman with bad hair. Funny how they didn;t mention that either.
Do you mean the woman with a prominent clavicle and defined jaw line, big breasts, large eyes, a button nose and a hair style that perfectly frames her head? I think we have different definitions of short and dumpy
And of fat balding and unattractive, I'm sure.
Also, those large eyes are coke bottle lens glasses, those are NOT big breasts no matter what definition you use and hair that hides parts of your face does not perfectly frame anything.
Cortana in 4 is awkward because she looks like an actual naked woman, with a well-defined body, toes, not to mention increasingly large breasts. In Halo 1 she's thin and naked (which is certainly ridiculous for a military AI), but she looks less sexualized and less human. More "Barbie doll" than "voluptuous, naked woman".
Cortana in 4 is awkward because she looks like an actual naked woman, with a well-defined body, toes, not to mention increasingly large breasts. In Halo 1 she's thin and naked (which is certainly ridiculous for a military AI), but she looks less sexualized and less human. More "Barbie doll" than "voluptuous, naked woman".
If she got a shirt in Halo 5, I would not object.
Or if Roland was shirtless the whole time. ;-)
Editted because she doesn't really look non-human in her original iteration if I'm to be honest.
Did someone say Chainmail bikinis? Man, am I tired of that shit. I love video games, but I play them less and less because I always feel like I'm being pandered too. "Oh, you're a young man, I bet you would love to have fucking ridiculously proportioned tits and ass shoved in your face!" Back when I was a kid I'd always get real embarrassed whenever my mom/dad older sisters walked in on me playing a game, because all the female characters looked like they were designed by horny 12 year olds.
I mean, yes, I will admit that when I actually was 12 that appealed to me a great deal. I played a lot of soul calibur 2 as a kid. But by the time I was I want to say 15 I couldn't play it anymore because I just couldn't stand all those giant titties flopping around. It's like if every movie you watched had Bayformers-style ass-shots every five seconds. It's incredibly juvenile. and it isn't even sexy. when I think of sexy women in video games I think of Alyx Vance and the default female Shepard from Mass Effect 3.
She looks like a... Real woman? What a novel concept!
Thank you for contacting me; I am George Kamitani from Vanillaware.
I’ll go into detail about the reasons behind some of Dragon’s Crown design concepts.
I believe that the basic fantasy motifs seen in Dungeons & Dragons and the work of J.R.R. Tolkien have a style that is very attractive, and I chose to use some orthodox ones in my basic designs. However, if I left those designs as is, they won’t stand out amongst the many fantasy designs already in the video game/comic/movie/etc. space. Because of that, I decided to exaggerate all of my character designs in a cartoonish fashion.
I exaggerated the silhouettes of all the masculine features in the male characters, the feminine features in female characters, and the monster-like features in the monsters from many different angles until each had a unique feel to them. I apologize to those who were made uncomfortable by the art’s appearance, and did not see the same light-hearted fantasy in my designs.
I don’t harbor any ill-will to Jason Schreier for the article he originally posted about the Sorceress or his follow-up. Although it may be negative feedback, I am very thankful for having one of our titles being covered. I do understand what Jason and the rest of the discussions on the internet are saying for the most part. I am not sure if I can implement the critiques from him and others around the internet into my future artistic creations, but I will definitely keep in mind that these opinions are out there and affect people on a personal level. I feel that any form of media content faces death when it doesn’t receive attention at all. So, be it criticism or support, I am truly thankful for the people talking about Dragon’s Crown and the people discovering Vanillaware for the first time.
In regards to the Dwarf image I posted on my Facebook page: This image was never intended to attack Jason. Originally, it was a promotional image that I created for my fan base in Japan, which I posted to the official Vanillaware Twitter account earlier.
We receive many requests from companies to create publicity illustrations for the game, but we never received any requests for the Dwarf. Also, as the game’s street date nears, most retail shops start requesting exclusive art for their retailer-exclusive bonus items. In Japan, these illustration requests can even be as specific as something like female characters in swimwear. In these requests as well, the Dwarf was nowhere to be seen.
So, I decided to unofficially draw a sweaty Dwarf in a bathing suit, with a bit of cynicism towards those retailer requests. I drew 3 of them to show that there are character color variations available.
However, this image is something I created on my own, and will not see the light of day in any publication. I felt it was a shame to just throw it out, and thought I’d just post it on my own Facebook. That’s when I remembered Jason’s article and thought that I’d post it as a little joke with a comment. I used an automated translator to try and make a lighthearted joke in English, but clearly that wasn’t the case. I was very surprised to see the crazy aftermath.
It’s okay if it was just me who was criticized, but it is not my intention to cause problems for Dragon’s Crown publisher (ATLUS) and all the other people who are involved in this project. From now on, I will limit myself about transmitting something personal out in the public.
Also, it would be very appreciated if you could please contact Index Digital Media, Inc. if you plan to make anything related to this matter, including this e-mail, into an article.
Lastly, please tell Jason that I am sorry for causing him trouble, and also to please don’t let my actions cause him to shy away from Vanillaware products…
Good bye, and thank you.
i especially like this part:
I do understand what Jason and the rest of the discussions on the internet are saying for the most part. I am not sure if I can implement the critiques from him and others around the internet into my future artistic creations, but I will definitely keep in mind that these opinions are out there and affect people on a personal level.
awareness raised, high-fives all around
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
I was reading the PA report about Dragon's Crown I realized how unnerving it is to see Tycho praise the game when his art is so much better than the imagery DC uses and that Vanillaware's Art is so much better than DC's. I enjoyed Shadow over Mysteria as well and would enjoy that gameplay.....but.
I do understand what Jason and the rest of the discussions on the internet are saying for the most part. I am not sure if I can implement the critiques from him and others around the internet into my future artistic creations, but I will definitely keep in mind that these opinions are out there and affect people on a personal level.
awareness raised, high-fives all around
That part stood out to me, too, but for a slightly different reason.
I do understand what Jason and the rest of the discussions on the internet are saying for the most part. I am not sure if I can implement the critiques from him and others around the internet into my future artistic creations, but I will definitely keep in mind that these opinions are out there and affect people on a personal level.
"I'm not sure I could just not draw FFF cup women buttfucking their staff, man. I just don't know."
So what do you guys think it would take to get the games media to report on actual instances of sexism in the game industry instead of the "lol chainmail bikinis are kind of unrealistic guys" stories that we've been getting for the last decade or so?
It shouldn't be hard to find those stories, right? The nearest I've seen in recent days is the Crossassault thing, and the FGC just seems like an easy target.
I literally answered this exact question from youyesterday.
Well, you were asking why we see a lot more stories going "ugh these boobs are pretty ridic you guys" instead of "sexism in the industry: still a thing (yes still)." And a good portion of that answer is that the industry stories can't exist without input from devs -- and they have some pretty substantial reasons to not want to put their neck on the line there.
I honestly don't think most journalists would hesitate one second if they could put a good story about industry discrimination together, even if they might only do it because those stories get hits, as Levinsky mentioned.
I'm glad you addressed this line of thought. You're pretty much spot-on. You alluded to it in your posts, but part of the reason we don't see a lot of coverage of sexism in the workforce of the games industry is that stories of the sort are actually pretty hard to construct. They need a great deal of detail if they're going to be at all meaningful and compelling. "Anonymous employee at unspecified company alleges vague mistreatment based on gender" is not much of a story.
A good comparison to this would be the Tales from the Trenches. They're all anonymous and contain only details related to the incidents and to move upon the audience the trials of the testers. But without names and locations, it's hard to combine them into a subtle narrative.
I do understand what Jason and the rest of the discussions on the internet are saying for the most part. I am not sure if I can implement the critiques from him and others around the internet into my future artistic creations, but I will definitely keep in mind that these opinions are out there and affect people on a personal level.
awareness raised, high-fives all around
That part stood out to me, too, but for a slightly different reason.
I do understand what Jason and the rest of the discussions on the internet are saying for the most part. I am not sure if I can implement the critiques from him and others around the internet into my future artistic creations, but I will definitely keep in mind that these opinions are out there and affect people on a personal level.
"I'm not sure I could just not draw FFF cup women buttfucking their staff, man. I just don't know."
It's
Slightly more complicated than that
I lay a lot of blame at the artist's feet, but they do work under direction, not in a vacuum. His contrition could be very honest and very real, but it won't matter if his directors and producers want him to draw a certain way. To a certain degree it's out of his hands.
Yes, he could refuse the work. I'm saying that it's not entirely his fault.
EDIT: I'm leaving this post as is, but I have been corrected - if the man is the art director then yes, it's mostly his fault
Are people implying that it is impossible to both objectify women and to respect them? That the two are mutually exclusive?
I mean...I sat in on Wil Wheaton's keynote at PAX Prime years ago and heard him talk about his son playing Grand Theft Auto and questioning 'Do you know the difference between games and real life? Because having sex with a hooker and then beating her up to get your money back is not ok.'
I will stand up as an older gamer, quickly approaching my 30's when this kind of imagery shouldn't be as powerful to me. I'm married, 11 years such, and I have 6 year old daughter. That gives some perspective, I hope, because no dad wants to raise a Playmate (I don't want my kid to be seen naked by anybody...probably not even the guy/gal that she'll marry someday).
I actively seek out these kinds of images, and it will color my decision to purchase a game or watch some form of media. I can find the imagery associated with certain characters in games attractive and not go brain dead. I also work and interact with women everyday and don't feel as though they are less intelligent because BREASTS. In the end, I equate the sexism and misogyny to weak minded people the same way I equate violent and angry people to their interactions with video games. Don't get me wrong here, I absolutely think this kind of imagery can lead a person to be a butt to women and such, but it also took that person being a butt beforehand.
If you are of the mindset that because I like boobs that makes me somehow dumber, then I don't know that I can change your opinion of that. But it's what I like, and a lot of other people like it too. I just choose to not be an idiot and assume that women are walking fun bags with vaginas and no brains.
+5
Niceguyeddie616All you feed me is PUFFINS!I need NOURISHMENT!Registered Userregular
I'm just glad he gave a decent response to it instead of just leaving it at "lol you're gay." Given how mature lots of devs in our own country like to appear, he's at least appearing to take the public response into consideration.
Maybe next time we'll only see an EE cup sorceress. It's a push in the right direction! :P
... because no dad wants to raise a Playmate (I don't want my kid to be seen naked by anybody...probably not even the guy/gal that she'll marry someday).
That's kind of a weird thing to say. Like, I can understand a parent not wanting their child to be exploited or objectified, and I can understand someone having reservations about a child participating in and contributing to a part of the culture that projects a very narrow and unrealistic standard of beauty. I can even understand feeling kind of weird about considering the sexual agency of someone whom you love in a totally non-sexual way. Where you lose me is with the idea that a child growing into sexual agency and taking control of her body, its portrayal, and the people she shares it with is somehow a bad thing, or something to be avoided.
If you are of the mindset that because I like boobs that makes me somehow dumber, then I don't know that I can change your opinion of that. But it's what I like, and a lot of other people like it too. I just choose to not be an idiot and assume that women are walking fun bags with vaginas and no brains.
Nobody is saying you are dumber for liking sexy images.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
So what do you guys think it would take to get the games media to report on actual instances of sexism in the game industry instead of the "lol chainmail bikinis are kind of unrealistic guys" stories that we've been getting for the last decade or so?
It shouldn't be hard to find those stories, right? The nearest I've seen in recent days is the Crossassault thing, and the FGC just seems like an easy target.
It's not hard at all. The first link when you google "sexism in the game industry" is this:
Similar behavior has been directed at me for years. Back in 2007 at my very first GDC, I was starry-eyed and overwhelmed to be in the midst of so many people I idolized. So when a drunken CEO of a then-startup pointed to my midsection and said “I want to have my babies in there,” I laughed. I did the same next year when another developer told me that he “didn’t recognize me with my clothes on” after meeting me the night prior at a formal event (to which I wore a cocktail dress). The trend continued for years, and I took it silently each and every time.
It got so bad that one of my Game Informer coworkers had to sit me down and convince me to file a complaint against a massive publisher, after one of their PR leads repeatedly commented about how much he “loved my tits” at a party. Each time I laughed it off and internalized my embarrassment, cementing a fixed smile on my face while fighting back tears. Why? Because I was afraid to rock the boat. I was afraid to perpetuate rumors that I was uptight, difficult, or had no sense of humor. I was afraid of what I’d heard being said about other women being said about me. So I would stick up for others, but never for myself. Sticking up for others was the right thing to do. I had to be careful not to stick my neck out too far, though.
I’m ashamed to admit my lack of courage has continued to this day. While on a press tour in Europe late last year I sat alone with an interviewer while he set up his camera. PR was talking to another member of the press just out of earshot. I asked the journalist what his readers would like to know about me first, per the introduction he outlined earlier. He responded nonchalantly, “Well, they’d really like to see you naked.” I was so shocked I didn’t even register what he said, and I defaulted to my uncomfortable chuckle and frozen smile. I conducted the interview as if nothing had happened. I should have walked out of the room then and there. I should have immediately reported it to PR. But I didn’t, because I was afraid.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Unless we're petitioning some government body to step in, we are not trying to censor.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
If Dragon's Crown existed in a vacuum, no one would care.
"Women are sexy and meant to elicit boners" is the default design mode of a startling portion of the industry, though. It can't be judged in a vacuum because it does not exist in one
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Full-blown male power fantasies filled with gore and wenches wearing chainmail bikinis. A jiggling set of tits is fine there but perhaps not a medieval-themed beat 'em up.
Are people implying that it is impossible to both objectify women and to respect them? That the two are mutually exclusive?
Yes. It's impossible to do both at the same time.
Objectify: to treat as an object
I don't respect too many objects.
This is not to say that someone can't objectify one woman while respecting another. But it's impossible to respect someone you treat as an object.
When I started at my current job I had a supervisor who is, in fact, a younger woman. For her age, she was highly ranked. She was also a well proportioned woman. The misogyny was there doubting her abilities from other people. When I met her I did my standard assessment, thought to myself "hey, she's kind of a sexy lady" and then continued my work with her with an ability to fully respect the fact that she was super smart, and a fantastic leader.
You see, I can look and say "sexy lady" which is objectification, and then continue to interact with her and see her as a capable woman who deserves my respect.
Don't apply the strict definition of objectification, because I don't think anybody looks at a person they find attractive and see them as an inanimate fuck-doll. Unless that's what everybody else does and apparently I don't objectify women.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Unless we're petitioning some government body to step in, we are not trying to censor.
Censorship isn't just blocking a thing. It comes in a lot of forms.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Full-blown male power fantasies filled with gore and wenches wearing chainmail bikinis. A jiggling set of tits is fine there but perhaps not a medieval-themed beat 'em up.
People keep saying such-and-such in Dragon's Crown is a male power fantasy. How is a medieval-themed beam'em up not a male power fantasy? I've been lead to believe violence and swing a big sword is a male power fantasy.
Are people implying that it is impossible to both objectify women and to respect them? That the two are mutually exclusive?
Yes. It's impossible to do both at the same time.
Objectify: to treat as an object
I don't respect too many objects.
This is not to say that someone can't objectify one woman while respecting another. But it's impossible to respect someone you treat as an object.
When I started at my current job I had a supervisor who is, in fact, a younger woman. For her age, she was highly ranked. She was also a well proportioned woman. The misogyny was there doubting her abilities from other people. When I met her I did my standard assessment, thought to myself "hey, she's kind of a sexy lady" and then continued my work with her with an ability to fully respect the fact that she was super smart, and a fantastic leader.
You see, I can look and say "sexy lady" which is objectification, and then continue to interact with her and see her as a capable woman who deserves my respect.
Don't apply the strict definition of objectification, because I don't think anybody looks at a person they find attractive and see them as an inanimate fuck-doll. Unless that's what everybody else does and apparently I don't objectify women.
Saying or thinking someone is attractive isn't objectification. Saying or thinking that all someone is good for is your own pleasure to use as you will is objectification.
So yes, you're in the clear, what you were doing wasn't objectification. You weren't defining your coworker by only her looks. Apparently your coworkers were. They were objectifying her, you weren't.
This is a perfect example of someone getting a strawman in their head and not realizing what's actually being argued isn't something that even applies to you.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Unless we're petitioning some government body to step in, we are not trying to censor.
Censorship isn't just blocking a thing. It comes in a lot of forms.
Censorship has a very specific meaning in this context
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Unless we're petitioning some government body to step in, we are not trying to censor.
Censorship isn't just blocking a thing. It comes in a lot of forms.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Full-blown male power fantasies filled with gore and wenches wearing chainmail bikinis. A jiggling set of tits is fine there but perhaps not a medieval-themed beat 'em up.
People keep saying such-and-such in Dragon's Crown is a male power fantasy. How is a medieval-themed beam'em up not a male power fantasy?
If I don't buy A:CM and talk loudly about how awful the game is, am I censoring Gearbox?
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Unless we're petitioning some government body to step in, we are not trying to censor.
Censorship isn't just blocking a thing. It comes in a lot of forms.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Full-blown male power fantasies filled with gore and wenches wearing chainmail bikinis. A jiggling set of tits is fine there but perhaps not a medieval-themed beat 'em up.
People keep saying such-and-such in Dragon's Crown is a male power fantasy. How is a medieval-themed beam'em up not a male power fantasy?
If I don't buy A:CM and talk loudly about how awful the game is, am I censoring Gearbox?
Did I hush their voices?
Maybe censorship is the wrong word but there definitely seems to be a conflict between the "we just want more variety" compared to the "we want him to change his style".
Are people implying that it is impossible to both objectify women and to respect them? That the two are mutually exclusive?
Yes. It's impossible to do both at the same time.
Objectify: to treat as an object
I don't respect too many objects.
This is not to say that someone can't objectify one woman while respecting another. But it's impossible to respect someone you treat as an object.
When I started at my current job I had a supervisor who is, in fact, a younger woman. For her age, she was highly ranked. She was also a well proportioned woman. The misogyny was there doubting her abilities from other people. When I met her I did my standard assessment, thought to myself "hey, she's kind of a sexy lady" and then continued my work with her with an ability to fully respect the fact that she was super smart, and a fantastic leader.
You see, I can look and say "sexy lady" which is objectification, and then continue to interact with her and see her as a capable woman who deserves my respect.
Don't apply the strict definition of objectification, because I don't think anybody looks at a person they find attractive and see them as an inanimate fuck-doll. Unless that's what everybody else does and apparently I don't objectify women.
Saying or thinking someone is attractive isn't objectification. Saying or thinking that all someone is good for is your own pleasure to use as you will is objectification.
So yes, you're in the clear, what you were doing wasn't objectification. You weren't defining your coworker by only her looks. Apparently your coworkers were. They were objectifying her, you weren't.
This is a perfect example of someone getting a strawman in their head and not realizing what's actually being argued isn't something that even applies to you.
Then doesn't this apply to games as well? I can like HHH tits (I don't btw, those game images are seriously outlandish) but not treat women like shit. I guess my argument still stands if you just take the idea of enjoying those images in your gaming experience and not taking it to a level of objectifying.
This is why I think the games/images aren't the problem, but the dickbags who treat women like this are.
Are people implying that it is impossible to both objectify women and to respect them? That the two are mutually exclusive?
Yes. It's impossible to do both at the same time.
Objectify: to treat as an object
I don't respect too many objects.
This is not to say that someone can't objectify one woman while respecting another. But it's impossible to respect someone you treat as an object.
When I started at my current job I had a supervisor who is, in fact, a younger woman. For her age, she was highly ranked. She was also a well proportioned woman. The misogyny was there doubting her abilities from other people. When I met her I did my standard assessment, thought to myself "hey, she's kind of a sexy lady" and then continued my work with her with an ability to fully respect the fact that she was super smart, and a fantastic leader.
You see, I can look and say "sexy lady" which is objectification, and then continue to interact with her and see her as a capable woman who deserves my respect.
Don't apply the strict definition of objectification, because I don't think anybody looks at a person they find attractive and see them as an inanimate fuck-doll. Unless that's what everybody else does and apparently I don't objectify women.
Saying or thinking someone is attractive isn't objectification. Saying or thinking that all someone is good for is your own pleasure to use as you will is objectification.
So yes, you're in the clear, what you were doing wasn't objectification. You weren't defining your coworker by only her looks. Apparently your coworkers were. They were objectifying her, you weren't.
This is a perfect example of someone getting a strawman in their head and not realizing what's actually being argued isn't something that even applies to you.
Then doesn't this apply to games as well? I can like HHH tits (I don't btw, those game images are seriously outlandish) but not treat women like shit. I guess my argument still stands if you just take the idea of enjoying those images in your gaming experience and not taking it to a level of objectifying.
This is why I think the games/images aren't the problem, but the dickbags who treat women like this are.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
The Dragon's Crown thing is a two-fold issue:
The first was when the art was initially posted. At which point the reaction was a collective statement of, "Given the prevalence of sexual objectification, this only adds to the problem. I'm really sick and tired of seeing the same exaggerated body parts." It's worth noting along with this that while the art may be of niche style, it still incorporates the same propagated body image that a lot of other over-sexualized female characters possess in other art styles.
The second was the art director's reaction to this collective statement, found here. (Caution: Kotaku) This shows that he is(was) somewhat ignorant of the issue that is being presented to him.
Compounding the first with the second is when things really began to heat up a little as at that point if nothing is said in response than it is just the status quo as usual. More discussion on situations like this creates more awareness.
I haven't posted in this thread at all because the sooner we reach 99 pages the sooner it's over, but:
1) Censor and censure are two different things. Anyone who thinks we've been arguing for the former is incorrect. We have been arguing for the latter. But this would be clear to anyone who had read the previous thread. @Cucco Leader we want the artist to change his style not because it's objectively wrong to ever draw sexy women but because in our society women are needlessly sexualized in all media everywhere forever and it's harmful. In the hypothetical non-sexist future, maybe Dragon's Crown would be fine because it would be "that weird game that has sexy women for some reason" or "that game that's reminding us all how ridiculously sexist Frank Frazetta was" but in today's industry Dragon's Crown is "that game whose women are notable because their breasts are even larger than your average video game character and are thus literally the size of watermelons."
2) Objectification is a complicated issue and I think it would be better to replace the term with "making video games where women are sexy not because there's any good reason for it but because sexy women are the norm in video games" or something similar. Nobody wants a world where there aren't any sexy drawings of anyone ever. We're just looking for more balance in games and we're also looking for games that use sex for legitimate reasons, not because the assumption is that games are made for men and that women in games are made for men to ogle. Cortana is a good example.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Unless we're petitioning some government body to step in, we are not trying to censor.
Censorship isn't just blocking a thing. It comes in a lot of forms.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Full-blown male power fantasies filled with gore and wenches wearing chainmail bikinis. A jiggling set of tits is fine there but perhaps not a medieval-themed beat 'em up.
People keep saying such-and-such in Dragon's Crown is a male power fantasy. How is a medieval-themed beam'em up not a male power fantasy?
If I don't buy A:CM and talk loudly about how awful the game is, am I censoring Gearbox?
Did I hush their voices?
Maybe censorship is the wrong word but there definitely seems to be a conflict between the "we just want more variety" compared to the "we want him to change his style".
"A standard method of interaction with people who produce consumer products"
"Voicing moderated opinions in an attempt to come to a new consensus agreement"
"Attempting to communicate with another human being"
all of these are bold new ways to express the tame shit you're hand-wringing about because it's more fun to never have been wrong than to address reasonable problems in a sedate manner
Do what you can to elect Harris/Walz and downticket Dem candidates in your area by doorknocking, phonebanking, or postcarding: https://www.mobilize.us/
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Unless we're petitioning some government body to step in, we are not trying to censor.
Censorship isn't just blocking a thing. It comes in a lot of forms.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Full-blown male power fantasies filled with gore and wenches wearing chainmail bikinis. A jiggling set of tits is fine there but perhaps not a medieval-themed beat 'em up.
People keep saying such-and-such in Dragon's Crown is a male power fantasy. How is a medieval-themed beam'em up not a male power fantasy?
If I don't buy A:CM and talk loudly about how awful the game is, am I censoring Gearbox?
Did I hush their voices?
Maybe censorship is the wrong word but there definitely seems to be a conflict between the "we just want more variety" compared to the "we want him to change his style".
The word you're looking for is criticism. We're criticizing a work, letting it be known what we don't like about it. And until a point comes where they are forced by an outside body (and by forced I mean not allowed to do otherwise) to listen to our criticism, no one is being censored. Even changing market forces isn't censoring someone. All it does it make it no longer financially viable to release their product, because there's no more demand for it.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Unless we're petitioning some government body to step in, we are not trying to censor.
Censorship isn't just blocking a thing. It comes in a lot of forms.
Is it though? I keep hearing the "we aren't trying to censor, we just want more variety" argument and Dragon's Crown is definitely niche. If these things can't exist in a niche game, where can they?
Full-blown male power fantasies filled with gore and wenches wearing chainmail bikinis. A jiggling set of tits is fine there but perhaps not a medieval-themed beat 'em up.
People keep saying such-and-such in Dragon's Crown is a male power fantasy. How is a medieval-themed beam'em up not a male power fantasy?
If I don't buy A:CM and talk loudly about how awful the game is, am I censoring Gearbox?
Did I hush their voices?
Maybe censorship is the wrong word but there definitely seems to be a conflict between the "we just want more variety" compared to the "we want him to change his style".
What is the conflict? If we say that the art style in Dragon's Crown is an exaggeration of traditional (already cartoonish) style seen in a lot of games, then the variety it brings is minimal, at best.
The exception was when men high in sexism viewed pictures of sexually dressed women. These pictures did not activate the mPFC for sexist males. This suggests that these men's brains did not perceive these women as fully human.
The men who didn't activate the portion of the brain for recognizing humans were already rated high in sexism. Brain chemistry is something I, technically speaking, know little to nothing about but find incredibly fascinating. The chemicals that effect brain function have some carry-over effect, supported by that article. Maybe I don't have that function in my brain, but it seems like people are either dicks, or not dicks.
Posts
Again, along the same lines as having them all wear clothes, let's assume similar texturization. Does this change the narrative any?
FFXIV - Milliardo Beoulve/Sargatanas
There was no value judgement in my statement. I was just presenting my opinion as to why some find 4 worse than 1. There's no reason why they couldn't just use a head instead of an entire body. Or going back further into Bungie's days, the AIs had no physical form in the Marathon series, and the game did not suffer for it.
Do you mean the woman with a prominent clavicle and defined jaw line, big breasts, large eyes, a button nose and a hair style that perfectly frames her head? I think we have different definitions of short and dumpy
I'm not disagreeing with the particulars of this post, nor am I really trying to push on you or darleysam. The main reason why I am rephrasing the argument is so that people who might not get what the real underlying problems are will be forced to think about things beyond how things are textured or the existence or non-existence of clothes.
FFXIV - Milliardo Beoulve/Sargatanas
And of fat balding and unattractive, I'm sure.
Also, those large eyes are coke bottle lens glasses, those are NOT big breasts no matter what definition you use and hair that hides parts of your face does not perfectly frame anything.
If she got a shirt in Halo 5, I would not object.
Editted because she doesn't really look non-human in her original iteration if I'm to be honest.
FFXIV - Milliardo Beoulve/Sargatanas
I mean, yes, I will admit that when I actually was 12 that appealed to me a great deal. I played a lot of soul calibur 2 as a kid. But by the time I was I want to say 15 I couldn't play it anymore because I just couldn't stand all those giant titties flopping around. It's like if every movie you watched had Bayformers-style ass-shots every five seconds. It's incredibly juvenile. and it isn't even sexy. when I think of sexy women in video games I think of Alyx Vance and the default female Shepard from Mass Effect 3.
She looks like a... Real woman? What a novel concept!
http://kotaku.com/the-artist-behind-dragons-crown-explains-his-exaggerat-482450927
i especially like this part:
awareness raised, high-fives all around
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
"I'm not sure I could just not draw FFF cup women buttfucking their staff, man. I just don't know."
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
- Link
I JUST CAN'T NOT DO IT
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
It's
Slightly more complicated than that
I lay a lot of blame at the artist's feet, but they do work under direction, not in a vacuum. His contrition could be very honest and very real, but it won't matter if his directors and producers want him to draw a certain way. To a certain degree it's out of his hands.
Yes, he could refuse the work. I'm saying that it's not entirely his fault.
EDIT: I'm leaving this post as is, but I have been corrected - if the man is the art director then yes, it's mostly his fault
he is the boss man for how it looks
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
I mean...I sat in on Wil Wheaton's keynote at PAX Prime years ago and heard him talk about his son playing Grand Theft Auto and questioning 'Do you know the difference between games and real life? Because having sex with a hooker and then beating her up to get your money back is not ok.'
I will stand up as an older gamer, quickly approaching my 30's when this kind of imagery shouldn't be as powerful to me. I'm married, 11 years such, and I have 6 year old daughter. That gives some perspective, I hope, because no dad wants to raise a Playmate (I don't want my kid to be seen naked by anybody...probably not even the guy/gal that she'll marry someday).
I actively seek out these kinds of images, and it will color my decision to purchase a game or watch some form of media. I can find the imagery associated with certain characters in games attractive and not go brain dead. I also work and interact with women everyday and don't feel as though they are less intelligent because BREASTS. In the end, I equate the sexism and misogyny to weak minded people the same way I equate violent and angry people to their interactions with video games. Don't get me wrong here, I absolutely think this kind of imagery can lead a person to be a butt to women and such, but it also took that person being a butt beforehand.
If you are of the mindset that because I like boobs that makes me somehow dumber, then I don't know that I can change your opinion of that. But it's what I like, and a lot of other people like it too. I just choose to not be an idiot and assume that women are walking fun bags with vaginas and no brains.
Maybe next time we'll only see an EE cup sorceress. It's a push in the right direction! :P
Yes. It's impossible to do both at the same time.
Objectify: to treat as an object
I don't respect too many objects.
This is not to say that someone can't objectify one woman while respecting another. But it's impossible to respect someone you treat as an object.
Nobody is saying you are dumber for liking sexy images.
Everyone likes sexy images.
It's not hard at all. The first link when you google "sexism in the game industry" is this:
http://www.businessinsider.com/story-of-gaming-industry-sexism-2013-3
Relating a story from here:
http://meagan-marie.tumblr.com/post/46396481491/what-would-you-do-if-you-werent-afraid
From link number three, about this very hashtag.
There's more out there, but I have a meeting to go to. I shall return!
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
Unless we're petitioning some government body to step in, we are not trying to censor.
If Dragon's Crown existed in a vacuum, no one would care.
"Women are sexy and meant to elicit boners" is the default design mode of a startling portion of the industry, though. It can't be judged in a vacuum because it does not exist in one
Full-blown male power fantasies filled with gore and wenches wearing chainmail bikinis. A jiggling set of tits is fine there but perhaps not a medieval-themed beat 'em up.
When I started at my current job I had a supervisor who is, in fact, a younger woman. For her age, she was highly ranked. She was also a well proportioned woman. The misogyny was there doubting her abilities from other people. When I met her I did my standard assessment, thought to myself "hey, she's kind of a sexy lady" and then continued my work with her with an ability to fully respect the fact that she was super smart, and a fantastic leader.
You see, I can look and say "sexy lady" which is objectification, and then continue to interact with her and see her as a capable woman who deserves my respect.
Don't apply the strict definition of objectification, because I don't think anybody looks at a person they find attractive and see them as an inanimate fuck-doll. Unless that's what everybody else does and apparently I don't objectify women.
Censorship isn't just blocking a thing. It comes in a lot of forms.
People keep saying such-and-such in Dragon's Crown is a male power fantasy. How is a medieval-themed beam'em up not a male power fantasy? I've been lead to believe violence and swing a big sword is a male power fantasy.
Saying or thinking someone is attractive isn't objectification. Saying or thinking that all someone is good for is your own pleasure to use as you will is objectification.
So yes, you're in the clear, what you were doing wasn't objectification. You weren't defining your coworker by only her looks. Apparently your coworkers were. They were objectifying her, you weren't.
This is a perfect example of someone getting a strawman in their head and not realizing what's actually being argued isn't something that even applies to you.
Censorship has a very specific meaning in this context
If I don't buy A:CM and talk loudly about how awful the game is, am I censoring Gearbox?
Did I hush their voices?
Maybe censorship is the wrong word but there definitely seems to be a conflict between the "we just want more variety" compared to the "we want him to change his style".
Then doesn't this apply to games as well? I can like HHH tits (I don't btw, those game images are seriously outlandish) but not treat women like shit. I guess my argument still stands if you just take the idea of enjoying those images in your gaming experience and not taking it to a level of objectifying.
This is why I think the games/images aren't the problem, but the dickbags who treat women like this are.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-big-questions/201008/sexualized-women-are-seen-objects-studies-find
Images that feed into that perceptions, if they are the norm, are absolutely part of the problem.
The Dragon's Crown thing is a two-fold issue:
The first was when the art was initially posted. At which point the reaction was a collective statement of, "Given the prevalence of sexual objectification, this only adds to the problem. I'm really sick and tired of seeing the same exaggerated body parts." It's worth noting along with this that while the art may be of niche style, it still incorporates the same propagated body image that a lot of other over-sexualized female characters possess in other art styles.
The second was the art director's reaction to this collective statement, found here. (Caution: Kotaku) This shows that he is(was) somewhat ignorant of the issue that is being presented to him.
Compounding the first with the second is when things really began to heat up a little as at that point if nothing is said in response than it is just the status quo as usual. More discussion on situations like this creates more awareness.
FFXIV - Milliardo Beoulve/Sargatanas
1) Censor and censure are two different things. Anyone who thinks we've been arguing for the former is incorrect. We have been arguing for the latter. But this would be clear to anyone who had read the previous thread. @Cucco Leader we want the artist to change his style not because it's objectively wrong to ever draw sexy women but because in our society women are needlessly sexualized in all media everywhere forever and it's harmful. In the hypothetical non-sexist future, maybe Dragon's Crown would be fine because it would be "that weird game that has sexy women for some reason" or "that game that's reminding us all how ridiculously sexist Frank Frazetta was" but in today's industry Dragon's Crown is "that game whose women are notable because their breasts are even larger than your average video game character and are thus literally the size of watermelons."
2) Objectification is a complicated issue and I think it would be better to replace the term with "making video games where women are sexy not because there's any good reason for it but because sexy women are the norm in video games" or something similar. Nobody wants a world where there aren't any sexy drawings of anyone ever. We're just looking for more balance in games and we're also looking for games that use sex for legitimate reasons, not because the assumption is that games are made for men and that women in games are made for men to ogle. Cortana is a good example.
"A standard method of interaction with people who produce consumer products"
"Voicing moderated opinions in an attempt to come to a new consensus agreement"
"Attempting to communicate with another human being"
all of these are bold new ways to express the tame shit you're hand-wringing about because it's more fun to never have been wrong than to address reasonable problems in a sedate manner
The word you're looking for is criticism. We're criticizing a work, letting it be known what we don't like about it. And until a point comes where they are forced by an outside body (and by forced I mean not allowed to do otherwise) to listen to our criticism, no one is being censored. Even changing market forces isn't censoring someone. All it does it make it no longer financially viable to release their product, because there's no more demand for it.
What is the conflict? If we say that the art style in Dragon's Crown is an exaggeration of traditional (already cartoonish) style seen in a lot of games, then the variety it brings is minimal, at best.
The men who didn't activate the portion of the brain for recognizing humans were already rated high in sexism. Brain chemistry is something I, technically speaking, know little to nothing about but find incredibly fascinating. The chemicals that effect brain function have some carry-over effect, supported by that article. Maybe I don't have that function in my brain, but it seems like people are either dicks, or not dicks.