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I'm slightly confused on the conversation going on right now.
@TychoCelchuuu, are you really saying that there shouldn't be female enemies in games that are violent? And that having female enemies is perpetuating rape culture? If so, that seems a bit extreme to me.
Is there a limit to what you'd consider violent? Any game where you kill enemies? Or just ones that show extreme violence?
I've been following these two threads for quite a while, and have had my mind opened quite a bit because of them, but this idea is completely perplexing to me, and I'd like some further explanation.
Also it's completely possible I'm just tired and not understanding what you mean here.
What I'm still wondering is if you believe that violent video games have a place at all in modern culture, since that isn't clear yet.
Not if there's no way to make them without perpetuating rape culture. I think there probably is but some people aren't trying very hard. Team Fortress 2 actually does it pretty well.
Is it because they don't have females in the game? That was really the point I was trying to make, and I'm sorry I made you ruffle your feathers a bit.
Not really - Shootmania has women (or, if you prefer, 'females') and it does fine.
I guess I just don't understand how everybody can be fine with sexual women characters but then intensely object to actually showing it. And I will not allow you to lump me in with these lunkheads who just try to marginalise your general argument by facetiously calling you out with such an example. But this issue is far more complicated than that. And trying to spin every comment into a black and white context does neither side any benefit.
Different kinds of media intentionally use questionable content as a kind of statement about said uses. And intentional or not, what BioWare did should be about more than just the image. At no point did I ever see that cutscene and thought any less of Miranda as a result. And in fact, I never even thought of it as some kind of 'character moment' either. It was just an awkward camera angle.
I think the reason we got focused on Miranda in this case is because she's introduced to us as a clearly defined individual, who seems like she has her own thoughts and motives. But her sexuality comes into play as a function of the developer's/camera's choices. Before she's allowed to make it a part of the conversation on her own, it's just assumed to be up for grabs by a third party. At the very least it leaves that question hanging in the air of whether her costume choice is "natural" or another third party decision. But the crucial hangup here is when the agency seems to suddenly be taken away from a character you've become familiar with since their introduction. That stings a bit more, in my opinion.
That isn't to say it diminishes your other examples, it just makes it easier to talk about because Miranda literally has more script material to draw from than some of the supporting cast or NPCs of other games.
It does get complicated by the fact we're now talking film as a shorthand language for director's intent, which may not be the character designer's intent, and so on. But there's a distinction between director's shorthand and lazy process. One communicates an idea, another tries to get you from zero to feels as fast as possible. The emotion in question being "you want this."
Even if you assume justification matters (it doesn't), Miranda's doesn't even make sense. She's not a seductress. She's a professional lieutenant, calculating, ice-cold and ruthless to anyone who hasn't passed into her inner circle (which at the beginning of ME2 is like, two or three people). I guess the idea is that her catsuit will distract enemies, or something? Hard to imagine that's worth much in a world where the asari exist almost solely as strippers, mercs, or multiclassed stripper mercs. The actual reason Miranda is wearing a catsuit is because ME2 Cerberus is playing off James Bond tropes, and taking highly sexist source material as inspiration unsurprisingly has consequences.
Not that it matters. Context is something that exists when zoomed in. The problem is the big picture, zoomed out, where "sexually liberated" catsuit-wearing Strong Female Characters are just Yet Anothers.
I'm slightly confused on the conversation going on right now.
@TychoCelchuuu, are you really saying that there shouldn't be female enemies in games that are violent? And that having female enemies is perpetuating rape culture? If so, that seems a bit extreme to me.
Is there a limit to what you'd consider violent? Any game where you kill enemies? Or just ones that show extreme violence?
I've been following these two threads for quite a while, and have had my mind opened quite a bit because of them, but this idea is completely perplexing to me, and I'd like some further explanation.
Also it's completely possible I'm just tired and not understanding what you mean here.
What gendered violence is as opposed to violence against someone who happens to be of that gender is a very difficult line to draw in reality, although conceptually it's as easy as saying this: killing a woman is fine, killing someone because they are a woman (but not for any further reason, like, to make a statement about gendered violence) and doing so in a manner that expresses an attitude towards the killing that suggests it is in some way acceptable or titillating or deserved or whatever because of the woman's gender isn't really fine in our society right now. (This is not to say it wouldn't be fine [but creepy...] in a hypothetical non-sexist society.)
Any game where you kill enemies isn't necessarily violent - Hearts of Iron 3 is a good example of a nonviolent game with a shitton of killing.
Really, though, we don't need to get deep into what is and isn't okay (because it's a complex topic) - all we need to know is that stuff like the Dead Island torso statue is the norm in the industry today (the statue is perhaps the worst example but it's hardly alone) and that's what needs to change. We are in an industry when an entire team of people can think up, design, produce, and package with their game the Dead Island torso statue, and even keep it up after being called on it. So that's not okay.
In a thread where most people who object to me and others like me don't even bother to read the thread before objecting, let alone respond to our actual arguments, I'm not sure I'd bother going deep into what constitutes the kind of gendered violence that engenders rape culture, but let me put it this way: no game that matters, no game that anyone needs to give a shit about, is ever going to be worse if it takes a page from The Witcher 2 and eases up a bit on the rape and torture.
I would be surprised if people who could augment such a thing as a human brain would not fiddle with simpler things like external appearance like there was some sort of stringent budget. As far as the game goes, it's also complicated that Miranda is a romance option, so there is an incentive to make her sexually attractive as the human option. Same with Jacob.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
BTW, Death of Rats, I happened to stumble upon a burlesque show last night by accident. I only saw a bit of it, but I don't really understand how it's so much better than other examples of sexualization.
I'm slightly confused on the conversation going on right now.
@TychoCelchuuu, are you really saying that there shouldn't be female enemies in games that are violent? And that having female enemies is perpetuating rape culture? If so, that seems a bit extreme to me.
Is there a limit to what you'd consider violent? Any game where you kill enemies? Or just ones that show extreme violence?
I've been following these two threads for quite a while, and have had my mind opened quite a bit because of them, but this idea is completely perplexing to me, and I'd like some further explanation.
Also it's completely possible I'm just tired and not understanding what you mean here.
What gendered violence is as opposed to violence against someone who happens to be of that gender is a very difficult line to draw in reality, although conceptually it's as easy as saying this: killing a woman is fine, killing someone because they are a woman (but not for any further reason, like, to make a statement about gendered violence) and doing so in a manner that expresses an attitude towards the killing that suggests it is in some way acceptable or titillating or deserved or whatever because of the woman's gender isn't really fine in our society right now. (This is not to say it wouldn't be fine [but creepy...] in a hypothetical non-sexist society.)
Any game where you kill enemies isn't necessarily violent - Hearts of Iron 3 is a good example of a nonviolent game with a shitton of killing.
Really, though, we don't need to get deep into what is and isn't okay (because it's a complex topic) - all we need to know is that stuff like the Dead Island torso statue is the norm in the industry today (the statue is perhaps the worst example but it's hardly alone) and that's what needs to change. We are in an industry when an entire team of people can think up, design, produce, and package with their game the Dead Island torso statue, and even keep it up after being called on it. So that's not okay.
In a thread where most people who object to me and others like me don't even bother to read the thread before objecting, let alone respond to our actual arguments, I'm not sure I'd bother going deep into what constitutes the kind of gendered violence that engenders rape culture, but let me put it this way: no game that matters, no game that anyone needs to give a shit about, is ever going to be worse if it takes a page from The Witcher 2 and eases up a bit on the rape and torture.
I don't think the barfight in Saints Row 3 qualifies. Male and female innocent bystanders get killed in that game pretty much equally gruesomely. And they aren't killed because they are women, they're killed just because people die at random without reason in that game.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I would be surprised if people who could augment such a thing as a human brain would not fiddle with simpler things like external appearance like there was some sort of stringent budget. As far as the game goes, it's also complicated that Miranda is a romance option, so there is an incentive to make her sexually attractive as the human option. Same with Jacob.
This statement speaks to what I'm trying to get at. Different people are attracted to different things. That being the case, how exactly is Miranda's look within the game an advantage? This dialogue only makes sense if you assume that the stereotypical male sexual fantasy is the only acceptable physically attractive form that would give her an advantage.
It won't be my power fantasy until we get a game about a guy who gets bullied by others gaining powers that allow him to get comeuppance against them. It won't be my sexy lady fantasy until we get a game where your romantic interest can be a mousy, adorkable pear-shaped nerd girl.
BTW, Death of Rats, I happened to stumble upon a burlesque show last night by accident. I only saw a bit of it, but I don't really understand how it's so much better than other examples of sexualization.
That may be my bad. I went to an amateur burlesque show a few years ago, and before the show the host was talking about how a lot of the people who were participating were generally shy about their sexuality, and were using participation as a way to express their sexuality in a very personal but public manner. In other words, on their terms. With agency.
Which is the big difference between something being sexualized and something being sexy. It's the difference between watching a movie with a girl/guy stripping instead of having someone in real life do it because they want to.
Not to equate burlesque with a strip tease. Burlesque can be an expression of sexuality, but doesn't have to be sexualized.
I'm not sure if my experience at a burlesque show is necessarily the norm, however. It could be that I was attributing something special to burlesque that was actually very specific to that show. I just thought it was a good metric to define what people actually mean when they say people/characters can be sexy without being sexualized or objectified. It comes from within the person or character, an expression of their sexuality, not just a generic "tits and ass" sexuality.
I haven't played Saint's Row 3 but my impression is that violence against everyone in that game is treated as no big deal, and I think t hat gets fairly problematic when women are involved because culture already tells us that violence against women is no big deal in so many ways. There's a sort of factual question as to whether violence against women int he context of violence against everyone leads to the same sort of reinforcement of rape culture as specifically gendered violence against women - one option is that it does, because the problem with violence against women is that they are dehumanized and stuff like Saint's Row 3 dehumanizes everyone, and it's only a stroke of luck for dudes that their occasional dehumanization in violent media doesn't bleed over into the real world with anywhere near the degree of virulence that it does for women. The other option is that dehumanization only reinforces rape culture when it is specifically targeted at women in some way in the media in question, such that we could have 100 Saints Row 3s and they would all be fine because they are equal opportunity sources of violence. I don't know what the answer is (although I lean towards #1). I think the safest option is just to move towards making video games like we make movies: maybe every game doesn't have to be a fucking murder simulator where you literally kill hundreds of people. It's just stupid. Video games can be so much better than that. I haven't played Bioshock Infinite but from what I can tell there's nothing about the story it tells that needs to be wedded to a gruesome murder simulation engine.
I would be surprised if people who could augment such a thing as a human brain would not fiddle with simpler things like external appearance like there was some sort of stringent budget. As far as the game goes, it's also complicated that Miranda is a romance option, so there is an incentive to make her sexually attractive as the human option. Same with Jacob.
This statement speaks to what I'm trying to get at. Different people are attracted to different things. That being the case, how exactly is Miranda's look within the game an advantage? This dialogue only makes sense if you assume that the stereotypical male sexual fantasy is the only acceptable physically attractive form that would give her an advantage.
She is only the "perfect woman" as whoever designed her envisioned her. And story wise, this is not about the sentiment of the game designer, but in the fiat genetic designer who may or may not be the absolute authority on what perfect is. For all we know, her appearance wasn't touched, or it was made as a side project as a waste of resources attributed to an unrelated goal.
But that's meta-thinking science fiction, and if you don't go there, chances are you won't put too much stock into the whole "this is what perfect is" idea, since Miranda ends up not believing it herself.
This has been done before in the Fifth Element in a much more definite way, with Leeloo being the perfect woman under the authority of the universe.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Even if you assume justification matters (it doesn't), Miranda's doesn't even make sense. She's not a seductress. She's a professional lieutenant, calculating, ice-cold and ruthless to anyone who hasn't passed into her inner circle (which at the beginning of ME2 is like, two or three people). I guess the idea is that her catsuit will distract enemies, or something? Hard to imagine that's worth much in a world where the asari exist almost solely as strippers, mercs, or multiclassed stripper mercs. The actual reason Miranda is wearing a catsuit is because ME2 Cerberus is playing off James Bond tropes, and taking highly sexist source material as inspiration unsurprisingly has consequences.
Not that it matters. Context is something that exists when zoomed in. The problem is the big picture, zoomed out, where "sexually liberated" catsuit-wearing Strong Female Characters are just Yet Anothers.
You know, you don't even need to look at her outfit. I'm sure you could justify that some way in game or whatever.
But the constant ass-shot camera angles? It's just ridiculous. It exists solely for the viewer/player and for obvious reasons. It makes at least someone's intent there really really obvious.
i think the scaling up of violence has to do directly with improvement in graphics
video game death has gone from disappearing blips to chainsaw bifurcations, and as hardware allows for ever more realism, designers have felt the need to go beyond the physically possible to the completely ludicrous
overall, though, there needs to be more diversity in win conditions in gaming
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
I haven't played Saint's Row 3 but my impression is that violence against everyone in that game is treated as no big deal, and I think t hat gets fairly problematic when women are involved because culture already tells us that violence against women is no big deal in so many ways. There's a sort of factual question as to whether violence against women int he context of violence against everyone leads to the same sort of reinforcement of rape culture as specifically gendered violence against women - one option is that it does, because the problem with violence against women is that they are dehumanized and stuff like Saint's Row 3 dehumanizes everyone, and it's only a stroke of luck for dudes that their occasional dehumanization in violent media doesn't bleed over into the real world with anywhere near the degree of virulence that it does for women. The other option is that dehumanization only reinforces rape culture when it is specifically targeted at women in some way in the media in question, such that we could have 100 Saints Row 3s and they would all be fine because they are equal opportunity sources of violence. I don't know what the answer is (although I lean towards #1). I think the safest option is just to move towards making video games like we make movies: maybe every game doesn't have to be a fucking murder simulator where you literally kill hundreds of people. It's just stupid. Video games can be so much better than that. I haven't played Bioshock Infinite but from what I can tell there's nothing about the story it tells that needs to be wedded to a gruesome murder simulation engine.
Long story short, Booker is a gruesome murder engine for a very good reason. It actually plays very well into the plot, and there is one self-aware scene rare to shooters where the violent nature of the game is actually addressed.
Violence against people is complicated, because you could say that violence against men is no big deal as well under different parameters. We are more sensitive to women because they have less safeguards against violence, but both sexes are pretty big victims of violence.
Paladin on
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
As far as the game goes, it's also complicated that Miranda is a romance option, so there is an incentive to make her sexually attractive as the human option.
Sexually attractive for whom? Shepard as the avatar of the player? Which leads back into the two re-quotes.
As far as the game goes, it's also complicated that Miranda is a romance option, so there is an incentive to make her sexually attractive as the human option.
Sexually attractive for whom? Shepard as the avatar of the player? Which leads back into the two re-quotes.
Both. But this no longer has anything to do with being the "Perfect Woman" as it is a separate game design aspect of just making all romance options sexually attractive.
Paladin on
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
And yet, if I play as female Shepard, I still spend half the time looking at her ass.
It would be cool if the camera angles were dynamic based on your romantic level with the character. But they're not.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I haven't played Saint's Row 3 but my impression is that violence against everyone in that game is treated as no big deal, and I think t hat gets fairly problematic when women are involved because culture already tells us that violence against women is no big deal in so many ways. There's a sort of factual question as to whether violence against women int he context of violence against everyone leads to the same sort of reinforcement of rape culture as specifically gendered violence against women - one option is that it does, because the problem with violence against women is that they are dehumanized and stuff like Saint's Row 3 dehumanizes everyone, and it's only a stroke of luck for dudes that their occasional dehumanization in violent media doesn't bleed over into the real world with anywhere near the degree of virulence that it does for women. The other option is that dehumanization only reinforces rape culture when it is specifically targeted at women in some way in the media in question, such that we could have 100 Saints Row 3s and they would all be fine because they are equal opportunity sources of violence. I don't know what the answer is (although I lean towards #1). I think the safest option is just to move towards making video games like we make movies: maybe every game doesn't have to be a fucking murder simulator where you literally kill hundreds of people. It's just stupid. Video games can be so much better than that. I haven't played Bioshock Infinite but from what I can tell there's nothing about the story it tells that needs to be wedded to a gruesome murder simulation engine.
The violence actually dovetails with the character and narrative. I say that as someone who finds the casual depiction of violence distasteful.
And yet, if I play as female Shepard, I still spend half the time looking at her ass.
It would be cool if the camera angles were dynamic based on your romantic level with the character. But they're not.
It'd be better if they didn't use eye candy and sex as a substitute or end goal for romance.
I personally don't care but many people see sex portrayed tastefully in games as a step up in the maturity of the medium. The MPAA is still deciding on how much sex is okay to see.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
And yet, if I play as female Shepard, I still spend half the time looking at her ass.
It would be cool if the camera angles were dynamic based on your romantic level with the character. But they're not.
So then the camera angle has nothing to do with your in game romance.
And it's just a way to let the audience oggle some pixels, because apparently that's what the audience wants.
It becomes more of a technical issue where relationships aren't treated with as much finesse as they could have been. But then again, this goes for both sexes.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
And yet, if I play as female Shepard, I still spend half the time looking at her ass.
It would be cool if the camera angles were dynamic based on your romantic level with the character. But they're not.
It'd be better if they didn't use eye candy and sex as a substitute or end goal for romance.
I personally don't care but many people see sex portrayed tastefully in games as a step up in the maturity of the medium. The MPAA is still deciding on how much sex is okay to see.
I don't think you followed what I meant.
Sex isn't the reward you get for being in a romantic relationship with someone. Mass Effect uses the sex scenes as a reward for being in any of the romantic relationships. It's kinda odd.
And yet, if I play as female Shepard, I still spend half the time looking at her ass.
It would be cool if the camera angles were dynamic based on your romantic level with the character. But they're not.
So then the camera angle has nothing to do with your in game romance.
And it's just a way to let the audience oggle some pixels, because apparently that's what the audience wants.
It becomes more of a technical issue where relationships aren't treated with as much finesse as they could have been. But then again, this goes for both sexes.
It's not a technical issue here. It's an issue of "We have a cutscene to make, let's spend it trying to frame Miranda's ass as much as possible". It doesn't matter what character you play or how you play it. It's one cutscene for all. The intent is obvious.
And yet, if I play as female Shepard, I still spend half the time looking at her ass.
It would be cool if the camera angles were dynamic based on your romantic level with the character. But they're not.
So then the camera angle has nothing to do with your in game romance.
And it's just a way to let the audience oggle some pixels, because apparently that's what the audience wants.
Camera angles should be optional. "Press Y for Male Gaze! Press X for Female Gaze! Press B for Male Gaze/Female Gaze Split-Screen! Press A to Look At Someone in the Goddamn Face When They're Talking for Christ's Sake."
And yet, if I play as female Shepard, I still spend half the time looking at her ass.
It would be cool if the camera angles were dynamic based on your romantic level with the character. But they're not.
It'd be better if they didn't use eye candy and sex as a substitute or end goal for romance.
I personally don't care but many people see sex portrayed tastefully in games as a step up in the maturity of the medium. The MPAA is still deciding on how much sex is okay to see.
I don't think you followed what I meant.
Sex isn't the reward you get for being in a romantic relationship with someone. Mass Effect uses the sex scenes as a reward for being in any of the romantic relationships. It's kinda odd.
It is a sort of video-gamey way to approach relationships
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Mass Effect is part dating-sim, it's not unreasonable or out of place to try to make the romanceable characters in a dating sim seem sexually attractive. That's kind of the whole point.
0
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
The problem with "Miranda is just using all her advantages!" as an excuse for how sexualized she is the very assumptions that go in to that statement. Everything we know from a social sciences standpoint tells us that when a woman is viewed as sexy in our society she actually has it worse. Imagine if Miranda were male and he wore pants (potentially NSFW due to penis represented in fabric) like these. Would everyone be nodding their head about what a great advantage that guy has, by using his sexuality like that? No? Why do you think that is?
"excuse my French
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
And yet, if I play as female Shepard, I still spend half the time looking at her ass.
It would be cool if the camera angles were dynamic based on your romantic level with the character. But they're not.
It'd be better if they didn't use eye candy and sex as a substitute or end goal for romance.
I personally don't care but many people see sex portrayed tastefully in games as a step up in the maturity of the medium. The MPAA is still deciding on how much sex is okay to see.
I don't think you followed what I meant.
Sex isn't the reward you get for being in a romantic relationship with someone. Mass Effect uses the sex scenes as a reward for being in any of the romantic relationships. It's kinda odd.
It is a sort of video-gamey way to approach relationships
It's disturbing, but I wouldn't call it sexist cause it applies to all relationships. And apparently that's the way the fans want it or something?
I don't know, but it's not really relevant to the thread imo.
And yet, if I play as female Shepard, I still spend half the time looking at her ass.
It would be cool if the camera angles were dynamic based on your romantic level with the character. But they're not.
So then the camera angle has nothing to do with your in game romance.
And it's just a way to let the audience oggle some pixels, because apparently that's what the audience wants.
Camera angles should be optional. "Press Y for Male Gaze! Press X for Female Gaze! Press B for Male Gaze/Female Gaze Split-Screen! Press A to Look At Someone in the Goddamn Face When They're Talking for Christ's Sake."
Like Assassin's creed but for butts
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The problem with "Miranda is just using all her advantages!" as an excuse for how sexualized she is the very assumptions that go in to that statement. Everything we know from a social sciences standpoint tells us that when a woman is viewed as sexy in our society she actually has it worse. Imagine if Miranda were male and he wore pants (potentially NSFW due to penis represented in fabric) like these. Would everyone be nodding their head about what a great advantage that guy has, by using his sexuality like that? No? Why do you think that is?
The big problem here is that any display of the actual sex organ violates public decency. I'm also curious as to whether such a thing is generally titillating. Is there any viewable part of the male anatomy that is arousing to people who are sexually attracted to males? Cause nothing really stands out, except precisely the thing that can't be shown.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Mass Effect is part dating-sim, it's not unreasonable or out of place to try to make the romanceable characters in a dating sim seem sexually attractive. That's kind of the whole point.
I would really like you to start actually quoting these nonexistent complaints you keep arguing against.
The problem with "Miranda is just using all her advantages!" as an excuse for how sexualized she is the very assumptions that go in to that statement. Everything we know from a social sciences standpoint tells us that when a woman is viewed as sexy in our society she actually has it worse. Imagine if Miranda were male and he wore pants (potentially NSFW due to penis represented in fabric) like these. Would everyone be nodding their head about what a great advantage that guy has, by using his sexuality like that? No? Why do you think that is?
The big problem here is that any display of the actual sex organ violates public decency. I'm also curious as to whether such a thing is generally titillating. Is there any viewable part of the male anatomy that is arousing to people who are sexually attracted to males? Cause nothing really stands out, except precisely the thing that can't be shown.
The face?
0
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
The problem with "Miranda is just using all her advantages!" as an excuse for how sexualized she is the very assumptions that go in to that statement. Everything we know from a social sciences standpoint tells us that when a woman is viewed as sexy in our society she actually has it worse. Imagine if Miranda were male and he wore pants (potentially NSFW due to penis represented in fabric) like these. Would everyone be nodding their head about what a great advantage that guy has, by using his sexuality like that? No? Why do you think that is?
The big problem here is that any display of the actual sex organ violates public decency. I'm also curious as to whether such a thing is generally titillating. Is there any viewable part of the male anatomy that is arousing to people who are sexually attracted to males? Cause nothing really stands out, except precisely the thing that can't be shown.
Alternatively, then, you could have a male Miranda who wears a seemingly painted-on bodysuit like she does, making certain outlines vaguely visible. And you can't say they wouldn't do that one due to public decency, because there's more than one character with camel toe in Mass Effect.
Still, you're not answering the question: If sexuality is such a powerful tool, why don't powerful men use it in the exact same way as objectified females? Could it be that it's not quite so powerful after all, and this is just an excuse to show naked lady butts?
Cambiata on
"excuse my French
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
The problem with "Miranda is just using all her advantages!" as an excuse for how sexualized she is the very assumptions that go in to that statement. Everything we know from a social sciences standpoint tells us that when a woman is viewed as sexy in our society she actually has it worse. Imagine if Miranda were male and he wore pants (potentially NSFW due to penis represented in fabric) like these. Would everyone be nodding their head about what a great advantage that guy has, by using his sexuality like that? No? Why do you think that is?
The big problem here is that any display of the actual sex organ violates public decency. I'm also curious as to whether such a thing is generally titillating. Is there any viewable part of the male anatomy that is arousing to people who are sexually attracted to males? Cause nothing really stands out, except precisely the thing that can't be shown.
The face?
oh ok well that's easy
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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@TychoCelchuuu, are you really saying that there shouldn't be female enemies in games that are violent? And that having female enemies is perpetuating rape culture? If so, that seems a bit extreme to me.
Is there a limit to what you'd consider violent? Any game where you kill enemies? Or just ones that show extreme violence?
I've been following these two threads for quite a while, and have had my mind opened quite a bit because of them, but this idea is completely perplexing to me, and I'd like some further explanation.
Also it's completely possible I'm just tired and not understanding what you mean here.
I think the reason we got focused on Miranda in this case is because she's introduced to us as a clearly defined individual, who seems like she has her own thoughts and motives. But her sexuality comes into play as a function of the developer's/camera's choices. Before she's allowed to make it a part of the conversation on her own, it's just assumed to be up for grabs by a third party. At the very least it leaves that question hanging in the air of whether her costume choice is "natural" or another third party decision. But the crucial hangup here is when the agency seems to suddenly be taken away from a character you've become familiar with since their introduction. That stings a bit more, in my opinion.
That isn't to say it diminishes your other examples, it just makes it easier to talk about because Miranda literally has more script material to draw from than some of the supporting cast or NPCs of other games.
It does get complicated by the fact we're now talking film as a shorthand language for director's intent, which may not be the character designer's intent, and so on. But there's a distinction between director's shorthand and lazy process. One communicates an idea, another tries to get you from zero to feels as fast as possible. The emotion in question being "you want this."
Ka-Chung!
Ka-Chung!
Not that it matters. Context is something that exists when zoomed in. The problem is the big picture, zoomed out, where "sexually liberated" catsuit-wearing Strong Female Characters are just Yet Anothers.
Any game where you kill enemies isn't necessarily violent - Hearts of Iron 3 is a good example of a nonviolent game with a shitton of killing.
Really, though, we don't need to get deep into what is and isn't okay (because it's a complex topic) - all we need to know is that stuff like the Dead Island torso statue is the norm in the industry today (the statue is perhaps the worst example but it's hardly alone) and that's what needs to change. We are in an industry when an entire team of people can think up, design, produce, and package with their game the Dead Island torso statue, and even keep it up after being called on it. So that's not okay.
In a thread where most people who object to me and others like me don't even bother to read the thread before objecting, let alone respond to our actual arguments, I'm not sure I'd bother going deep into what constitutes the kind of gendered violence that engenders rape culture, but let me put it this way: no game that matters, no game that anyone needs to give a shit about, is ever going to be worse if it takes a page from The Witcher 2 and eases up a bit on the rape and torture.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I don't think the barfight in Saints Row 3 qualifies. Male and female innocent bystanders get killed in that game pretty much equally gruesomely. And they aren't killed because they are women, they're killed just because people die at random without reason in that game.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
FFXIV - Milliardo Beoulve/Sargatanas
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FFXIV - Milliardo Beoulve/Sargatanas
That may be my bad. I went to an amateur burlesque show a few years ago, and before the show the host was talking about how a lot of the people who were participating were generally shy about their sexuality, and were using participation as a way to express their sexuality in a very personal but public manner. In other words, on their terms. With agency.
Which is the big difference between something being sexualized and something being sexy. It's the difference between watching a movie with a girl/guy stripping instead of having someone in real life do it because they want to.
Not to equate burlesque with a strip tease. Burlesque can be an expression of sexuality, but doesn't have to be sexualized.
I'm not sure if my experience at a burlesque show is necessarily the norm, however. It could be that I was attributing something special to burlesque that was actually very specific to that show. I just thought it was a good metric to define what people actually mean when they say people/characters can be sexy without being sexualized or objectified. It comes from within the person or character, an expression of their sexuality, not just a generic "tits and ass" sexuality.
She is only the "perfect woman" as whoever designed her envisioned her. And story wise, this is not about the sentiment of the game designer, but in the fiat genetic designer who may or may not be the absolute authority on what perfect is. For all we know, her appearance wasn't touched, or it was made as a side project as a waste of resources attributed to an unrelated goal.
But that's meta-thinking science fiction, and if you don't go there, chances are you won't put too much stock into the whole "this is what perfect is" idea, since Miranda ends up not believing it herself.
This has been done before in the Fifth Element in a much more definite way, with Leeloo being the perfect woman under the authority of the universe.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
You know, you don't even need to look at her outfit. I'm sure you could justify that some way in game or whatever.
But the constant ass-shot camera angles? It's just ridiculous. It exists solely for the viewer/player and for obvious reasons. It makes at least someone's intent there really really obvious.
video game death has gone from disappearing blips to chainsaw bifurcations, and as hardware allows for ever more realism, designers have felt the need to go beyond the physically possible to the completely ludicrous
overall, though, there needs to be more diversity in win conditions in gaming
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
Long story short, Booker is a gruesome murder engine for a very good reason. It actually plays very well into the plot, and there is one self-aware scene rare to shooters where the violent nature of the game is actually addressed.
Violence against people is complicated, because you could say that violence against men is no big deal as well under different parameters. We are more sensitive to women because they have less safeguards against violence, but both sexes are pretty big victims of violence.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Sexually attractive for whom? Shepard as the avatar of the player? Which leads back into the two re-quotes.
FFXIV - Milliardo Beoulve/Sargatanas
Both. But this no longer has anything to do with being the "Perfect Woman" as it is a separate game design aspect of just making all romance options sexually attractive.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It would be cool if the camera angles were dynamic based on your romantic level with the character. But they're not.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It'd be better if they didn't use eye candy and sex as a substitute or end goal for romance.
The violence actually dovetails with the character and narrative. I say that as someone who finds the casual depiction of violence distasteful.
I personally don't care but many people see sex portrayed tastefully in games as a step up in the maturity of the medium. The MPAA is still deciding on how much sex is okay to see.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
So then the camera angle has nothing to do with your in game romance.
And it's just a way to let the audience oggle some pixels, because apparently that's what the audience wants.
It becomes more of a technical issue where relationships aren't treated with as much finesse as they could have been. But then again, this goes for both sexes.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I don't think you followed what I meant.
Sex isn't the reward you get for being in a romantic relationship with someone. Mass Effect uses the sex scenes as a reward for being in any of the romantic relationships. It's kinda odd.
It's not a technical issue here. It's an issue of "We have a cutscene to make, let's spend it trying to frame Miranda's ass as much as possible". It doesn't matter what character you play or how you play it. It's one cutscene for all. The intent is obvious.
Camera angles should be optional. "Press Y for Male Gaze! Press X for Female Gaze! Press B for Male Gaze/Female Gaze Split-Screen! Press A to Look At Someone in the Goddamn Face When They're Talking for Christ's Sake."
What romance was occurring twenty minutes in to the game?
It is a sort of video-gamey way to approach relationships
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
It's disturbing, but I wouldn't call it sexist cause it applies to all relationships. And apparently that's the way the fans want it or something?
I don't know, but it's not really relevant to the thread imo.
Like Assassin's creed but for butts
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The big problem here is that any display of the actual sex organ violates public decency. I'm also curious as to whether such a thing is generally titillating. Is there any viewable part of the male anatomy that is arousing to people who are sexually attracted to males? Cause nothing really stands out, except precisely the thing that can't be shown.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I would really like you to start actually quoting these nonexistent complaints you keep arguing against.
The face?
Alternatively, then, you could have a male Miranda who wears a seemingly painted-on bodysuit like she does, making certain outlines vaguely visible. And you can't say they wouldn't do that one due to public decency, because there's more than one character with camel toe in Mass Effect.
Still, you're not answering the question: If sexuality is such a powerful tool, why don't powerful men use it in the exact same way as objectified females? Could it be that it's not quite so powerful after all, and this is just an excuse to show naked lady butts?
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
oh ok well that's easy
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.