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Buying a Used Car

AlazullAlazull Your body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered User regular
Hey everyone! I'm thinking about buying a used car from not-Craigslist for the first time in my life, and could use some advice from those of you more experienced with things like responsibility. So, here we go!

What the hell do I even do to start? I've been looking at Cars.com for hours and found some hits I liked, but I've never been to a car dealership in my life. I'm also thinking about financing the vehicle, and have no idea how to even go about that without leaving myself to the tender mercies of the people trying to sell me the damn car for as much as they can get. No one I know can give me decent advice on what I should know before I even walk into the place, and ain't a damn one of them who can explain what I'm even supposed to do once I'm there besides drop trousers and grab my ankles.

So basically, how do I buy car?

User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.

Posts

  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Well, first of all you're going to need to know what you plan on doing with that car. Then you're going to need to know which cars are good at doing what you want, then which of those drives how you like, has the features and accessories that you want, and looks nice to you.

    Once you've narrowed that down to a couple of models (at most), do a bit of research into common faults with the cars you're looking at, make sure none of them are lemons.

    Then decide on a price you can comfortably afford, get your car loan from someone other than a dealer, and search around for the best example (re: condition, mileage, service history) in your price range.

    Buy that car with the finance you already have arranged, do not get anything else from the dealer. No aftermarket warranties, no paint protection, none of that shit.

    Donovan Puppyfucker on
  • AlazullAlazull Your body is not a temple, it's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.Registered User regular
    Okay, I actually did do some of that. I've been building up a portfolio of vehicles that satisfy my wants and needs, and found one in particular that stands out for not only looking pretty darn good, but also being in (seemingly) decent condition, getting good gas mileage, and being within my price range.

    Here it is, for sake of an example.

    Where would a good resource for research? I'm really flying by night here and outside of looking up reviews I really don't have a "trusted" source to judge these vehicles with.

    User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Hondas are generally very well engineered and assembled. Not being a 'Honda guy' myself, I'm not super knowledgeable about that exact models idiosyncracies, but a good place to start would be your local owners club. They will also be able to clue you into the good mechanics that can inspect a car before you buy to make sure nothing stupid has been done to it.

    Which is a thing you are definitely going to want to do. Civics are douchebag magnets, it seems that 9/10 Civic owners think they are Senna, and their car is an F1 weapon. The remaining 10% are the kind of folk who buy a car on reputation of reliability and then get it serviced twice as much as it needs to be.

  • ThundyrkatzThundyrkatz Registered User regular
    Lots of dealerships have cars posted on line, you can shop in anonymity and decide what you want in the comfort of your home. Then use resources like Kelly Blue book to find an estimate of what the car is worth, so you have an understanding of what to pay for the car.

    Also, i would suggest going to some local credit unions and securing a loan beforehand. If the dealership ends up with a better loan deal for you, you can go with theirs, otherwise you already have a loan deal your happy with.

    If they will let you take the car for a drive, you can line up a deal to take it to a garage you trust to do a quick inspection to see if the car has any issues that could sour your deal.

    Do you have a trade in? The general consensus is to deal with the trade in and the sale as separate transactions. Negotiate the price on the car w/o the trade in, then once you have settled on a price, you can negotiate the trade in value for your car.

    If you have hot a point where they can't come down on the price anymore, but you still think its too high. you can try negotiating on other things. Like a couple years of free oil changes or free service package, whatever.

    Good Luck!

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    How do you do your best to make sure you aren't getting screwed on the deal?

    I've helped other people buy used cars, and to the OP's point: One of those times we did research on the cars, took the car in question to a mechanic for an inspection, drove it off the lot and it died within the week. We ended up in a knock down, drag out fight with the dealer and still lost $500 on the deal, though we got the rest of the money back.

    What is this I don't even.
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Get a Carfax report (or a similar owner history report) on any car you are interested in. Most dealerships of repute will provide this for you for free when you look into the car, should they not automatically do so, request it. If they do not provide one, pass on the car. Essentially, the Carfax report will tell you the previous owner history, any and all repairs done, and previous buy and sell prices since ownership.

    I've had a lot of good experiences with Carmax as a used car dealership for a lot of reasons, but our local Carmax is well situated to have a large number of fleet cars from our local tourist and rental services so there is a lot to choose from. Some Carmax locations have nothing. From my own experience, you get a more honest deal since they don't vary their prices after you walk on the lot so you know how much you have to pay right up front, but at the same time you may be able to get a cheaper car from a smaller dealership if you have a lot of haggling abilities.

    Enc on
  • wmelonwmelon Registered User regular
    While everybody else is talking about which car to get and what to do once you get to the dealership, I'll tell you a little about financing.

    1) Go to your bank for financing.
    2) Go to your bank for financing.
    3) Do not finance through the dealer unless you're buying new and there's a really good reason not to. (e.g. 0% financing, thousands of dollars of rebates. etc.)
    4) Financing a car older than 7 years can be difficult, even at your bank.
    5) If you can get an account at a credit union, do it. They will usually have better deals and will work with you more on financing vehicles.

    Also don't forget to get insurance quotes on whatever car you're looking at before you decide to buy. You don't want to be surprised by a super high rate after you've already bought the car.

  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    Hondas are generally very well engineered and assembled. Not being a 'Honda guy' myself, I'm not super knowledgeable about that exact models idiosyncracies, but a good place to start would be your local owners club. They will also be able to clue you into the good mechanics that can inspect a car before you buy to make sure nothing stupid has been done to it.

    Which is a thing you are definitely going to want to do. Civics are douchebag magnets, it seems that 9/10 Civic owners think they are Senna, and their car is an F1 weapon. The remaining 10% are the kind of folk who buy a car on reputation of reliability and then get it serviced twice as much as it needs to be.

    I don't think that will be a problem with the HX. It was built and sold as a "high-efficiency" model - the dbags tend to like the base LX and the sporty Si models.

    Biggest thing for the OP is to not go to the dealer without financing. If the dealer beats what you get from a local credit union, then great, but it is highly unlikely.

    As far as negotiating, go in with as much information as possible. I like the Edmunds TMV as well, which says that car is worth somewhere around $3500-$4000. I definitely wouldn't pay much more than $4K for it.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    Get a Carfax report (or a similar owner history report) on any car you are interested in. Most dealerships of repute will provide this for you for free when you look into the car, should they not automatically do so, request it. If they do not provide one, pass on the car. Essentially, the Carfax report will tell you the previous owner history, any and all repairs done, and previous buy and sell prices since ownership.

    I've had a lot of good experiences with Carmax as a used car dealership for a lot of reasons, but our local Carmax is well situated to have a large number of fleet cars from our local tourist and rental services so there is a lot to choose from. Some Carmax locations have nothing. From my own experience, you get a more honest deal since they don't vary their prices after you walk on the lot so you know how much you have to pay right up front, but at the same time you may be able to get a cheaper car from a smaller dealership if you have a lot of haggling abilities.

    Those reports only work on stuff that was reported. If the car has a shady history, the report won't help at all.

    What is this I don't even.
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Get a Carfax report (or a similar owner history report) on any car you are interested in. Most dealerships of repute will provide this for you for free when you look into the car, should they not automatically do so, request it. If they do not provide one, pass on the car. Essentially, the Carfax report will tell you the previous owner history, any and all repairs done, and previous buy and sell prices since ownership.

    I've had a lot of good experiences with Carmax as a used car dealership for a lot of reasons, but our local Carmax is well situated to have a large number of fleet cars from our local tourist and rental services so there is a lot to choose from. Some Carmax locations have nothing. From my own experience, you get a more honest deal since they don't vary their prices after you walk on the lot so you know how much you have to pay right up front, but at the same time you may be able to get a cheaper car from a smaller dealership if you have a lot of haggling abilities.

    Those reports only work on stuff that was reported. If the car has a shady history, the report won't help at all.

    Exactly, that's reason enough not to buy the car. If there isn't a report, you have no control over what you are spending thousands of dollars on. When you have so much product out there, and there are an insane amount of used cars to pick from in any city of note, there is no sense in picking a car with unknowns.

  • ThundyrkatzThundyrkatz Registered User regular
    also, be careful about conversations about how much you want to pay per month. The dealers love to use this as a means to convince you that you can afford a car that you cant. You don't want to be paying for 72 months on a used car.

  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Protip: Never ever EVER buy an ex-rental car. Ever.

    Ex government and corporate fleet cars can be good sometimes.

    Not rentals. Rental cars are the red-headed step children of the automotive world, and get the everloving fuck thrashed out of them.

  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Protip: Never ever EVER buy an ex-rental car. Ever.

    Ex government and corporate fleet cars can be good sometimes.

    Not rentals. Rental cars are the red-headed step children of the automotive world, and get the everloving fuck thrashed out of them.

    I will second this. Our fleet car is from a corporate fleet and is in remarkable condition for the mileage. Rentals are probably the worst picks to go after, second only to the half rusted truck on cinder blocks.

  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    What's the best way to even narrow down what kind of car you want? I'm currently trying to save up for a down payment or an outright purchase, and I'm getting different advice from every person I talk to. My size is the first and most important factor for me - I don't want to own a car where I feel like I'm crammed in like a sardine, but most people don't seem to consider that when talking about cars.

    He/Him | "A boat is always safest in the harbor, but that’s not why we build boats." | "If you run, you gain one. If you move forward, you gain two." - Suletta Mercury, G-Witch
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Only you can determine what metrics you value most. For me, this is what I look for:

    -Utility (how much can I do with the car? Re: carrying friends and family, loading up a piece of furniture, traveling across country, etc)
    -Economy (how expensive is it to maintain, fuel?)
    -Price (Is it within my budget?)

    I don't really care about appearances of the car personally, for me it was more about what I could do with the car and for how much. I ended up getting a Dodge Calibur (though I was also looking at the Yaris and other comparable small hatch backs) due to their utility for what I need in my day to day life.

    I would think about what you will use the car for, and what the most valuable things you will need to do are. If you care about how your car looks, include that. If you absolutely must have a specific soundsystem or brand, include that. Just make a set of metrics before you shop and stick to them.

  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    Only you can determine what metrics you value most. For me, this is what I look for:

    -Utility (how much can I do with the car? Re: carrying friends and family, loading up a piece of furniture, traveling across country, etc)
    -Economy (how expensive is it to maintain, fuel?)
    -Price (Is it within my budget?)

    I don't really care about appearances of the car personally, for me it was more about what I could do with the car and for how much. I ended up getting a Dodge Calibur (though I was also looking at the Yaris and other comparable small hatch backs) due to their utility for what I need in my day to day life.

    I would think about what you will use the car for, and what the most valuable things you will need to do are. If you care about how your car looks, include that. If you absolutely must have a specific soundsystem or brand, include that. Just make a set of metrics before you shop and stick to them.

    Personally, Enc, when I went car shopping last year, the #1 item on my list was "Enjoyment." I treat cars as a long term part of my life (try to own one for 7 to 10 years minimum). That's a lot of time spent in the vehicle, and in my opinion, it should be time that you enjoy. Its pretty easy to find that car, too. When you take a test drive in the car, if the test drive comes to an end and you don't have a large smile on your face from the drive, then its not the right car.

    PSN|AspectVoid
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Only you can determine what metrics you value most. For me, this is what I look for:

    -Utility (how much can I do with the car? Re: carrying friends and family, loading up a piece of furniture, traveling across country, etc)
    -Economy (how expensive is it to maintain, fuel?)
    -Price (Is it within my budget?)

    I don't really care about appearances of the car personally, for me it was more about what I could do with the car and for how much. I ended up getting a Dodge Calibur (though I was also looking at the Yaris and other comparable small hatch backs) due to their utility for what I need in my day to day life.

    I would think about what you will use the car for, and what the most valuable things you will need to do are. If you care about how your car looks, include that. If you absolutely must have a specific soundsystem or brand, include that. Just make a set of metrics before you shop and stick to them.

    Personally, Enc, when I went car shopping last year, the #1 item on my list was "Enjoyment." I treat cars as a long term part of my life (try to own one for 7 to 10 years minimum). That's a lot of time spent in the vehicle, and in my opinion, it should be time that you enjoy. Its pretty easy to find that car, too. When you take a test drive in the car, if the test drive comes to an end and you don't have a large smile on your face from the drive, then its not the right car.

    Absolutely, everyone will have different metrics. What makes for effective purchasing is figuring out what you values in a car before you get out to the dealerships so you can make an informed decision and rank the cars you encounter based upon what your actual needs are.

  • zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Generally with a used car, what I have found to be effective is to essentially schedule a time slot with a mechanic and drive it over to their shop and put it on a lift. It'll cost you 50-100 bucks or so but you'll know a lot more about if you should buy the car or not. Car salesmen can be a bit resistant to that, but most of the time they'll wait patiently with you. In terms of price, edmonds can give you a good estimate but generally on a used car you can knock off 800-1000 bucks off the price they give you. Get financing before hand if you need it.

    zepherin on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    I'd advise to ask yourself if you're somebody who is assertive and willing to negotiate in a serious way, and if not, take somebody with you who will. You never ever ever need to pay anywhere near the price that's on a car at the dealership. My own personal advise is put as much down as you can on it too so you can have a very low payment. I like to buy cars that are a few years used, and pay them off in 2 years or as fast as I can manage by paying extra every month. I just don't like having a car payment all the time.

  • mightyjongyomightyjongyo Sour Crrm East Bay, CaliforniaRegistered User regular
    One thing to remember whenever going car shopping is to be willing to walk away if you don't agree with the price. Don't get sucked into the seller's pace.

  • xThanatoSxxThanatoSx Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    Protip: Never ever EVER buy an ex-rental car. Ever.

    Ex government and corporate fleet cars can be good sometimes.

    Not rentals. Rental cars are the red-headed step children of the automotive world, and get the everloving fuck thrashed out of them.

    I will second this. Our fleet car is from a corporate fleet and is in remarkable condition for the mileage. Rentals are probably the worst picks to go after, second only to the half rusted truck on cinder blocks.

    Hmmm... the last car my wife and I bought was an ex-rental that we picked up at Carmax and we haven't had any issues with it.

    So while YMMV on that, just because it's an ex-rental shouldn't immediately kick it into "not considering it."

    Granted, the car we picked up was a year old and had less than 9k miles on it at the time so it made the decision a bit easier.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    One thing to remember whenever going car shopping is to be willing to walk away if you don't agree with the price. Don't get sucked into the seller's pace.

    I have heard it argued that if you don't walk away at least once, even for a car you really want, you aren't doing it right.

    What is this I don't even.
  • DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    Look up the 4 square system dealers use. When negotiating price, try to notice if he is lowering the dollars per payment, but increasing the number of payments, instead of actually lowering the price of the car.

    If things dont smell right, walk. Do research on the dealer itself. Not all used car sellers are scammy, but it can be something you will run into.

    steam_sig.png
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    My 2 cents:
    1. Figure out the car(s) you want. Test drive a bunch, never give your phone number.
    2. Figure out what you want to pay for what options and condition.
    3. Find the candidates via cars.com, autotrader etc. etc.
    4. Mercilessly bargain, pitting car dealers against each other, until you have what you want for the price you want.

    Key things to remember:
    Car dealers are not nice people while they're dealing cars. They mostly work on commission and live and die by how much they screw you
    Car dealer finance people are even worse, as they barely talk to you and their pay is directly commensurate with how hard they screw you

    Note that there are nice car dealers, but they probably won't be working the used lot, and will typically work at dealers that don't move a lot on price. I say all this having multiple good friends who have worked in various capacities at dealerships. Regardless of dealership, all had the same stories.

  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    xThanatoSx wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Protip: Never ever EVER buy an ex-rental car. Ever.

    Ex government and corporate fleet cars can be good sometimes.

    Not rentals. Rental cars are the red-headed step children of the automotive world, and get the everloving fuck thrashed out of them.

    I will second this. Our fleet car is from a corporate fleet and is in remarkable condition for the mileage. Rentals are probably the worst picks to go after, second only to the half rusted truck on cinder blocks.

    Hmmm... the last car my wife and I bought was an ex-rental that we picked up at Carmax and we haven't had any issues with it.

    So while YMMV on that, just because it's an ex-rental shouldn't immediately kick it into "not considering it."

    Granted, the car we picked up was a year old and had less than 9k miles on it at the time so it made the decision a bit easier.

    Did you boil it after purchase?

  • kaliyamakaliyama Left to find less-moderated fora Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Buy the fighting chance newsletter. It explains the pricing structure and dealer incentives for every manufacturer and gives lots of advice on how to negotiate effectively.

    kaliyama on
    fwKS7.png?1
  • zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    One thing to remember whenever going car shopping is to be willing to walk away if you don't agree with the price. Don't get sucked into the seller's pace.

    I have heard it argued that if you don't walk away at least once, even for a car you really want, you aren't doing it right.
    Sometimes you can set the stage for getting the price right the first go about. I find that 3-5 percent is a reasonable profit for a car. Knowing what they paid or should have paid is a good way to go about that. They probably aren't going to give it to you for less than they paid, but paying invoice price is reasonable, you pay invoice they get the holdback, unless they are super shiesty with the holdback. The last car I bought they gave me slightly under invoice first price they handed me. I had checked edmunds, consumer reports and a few other sites before hand, had the information in my folder and it was a fast ordeal. I set the stage by discussing pricing and other acceptable and unacceptable charges during the test drive, He knew I had the cost of the vehicle in my hand and when it came time. It was just a 2 minute chat with his boss, and the price was accepted. Financing was already in hand so even that was non issue.

  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    I'd be leery of low mile rentals. I mean, why are they selling it? It makes no sense, the value prop for them is to hold on to it at least until the warranty expires. I could be put off from my 1st car which was a low mile rental and had dodgey brakes.

    You do not have to be particularly assertive, just stick to your price and walk if you don't get it. If you regret leaving you can always come back, though I'd wait 2-3 days and see if they call you. There was a cool Planet Money podcast where an FBI negotiator regales how he bought a car; was pretty cool. Generally you're better off being nice than a dick; only desperate people want to play ball with a dick.

    I'd recommend not signing anything as a pre-cursor to negotiations: this is a tactic to get you invested and on the defensive. If your salesman insists say you'll play ball with the sales/floor manager. And the 4-square is an utter con. I think I crossed out that shit and wrote "I'm paying this $X for the car" in each square when some jackhole tried to do that to me (granted I wasn't being real nice there, I just didn't want to deal with shenanigans).


    Edit: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/12/21/167802325/episode-425-an-fbi-hostage-negotiator-buys-a-car grain f salt, someone who has a lot of experience in high-tension negotiations are likely to be able to get a better deal than those who do not.

    Djeet on
  • Mercutio87Mercutio87 So build that wall and build it strong cause We'll be there before too longRegistered User regular
    For those with more experience, would something like this be helpful if your local credit union offers it? I couldn't use it with my first used car as it was too old to qualify, but I'm thinking about doing it through this for next time.

  • zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    Djeet wrote: »
    You do not have to be particularly assertive, just stick to your price and walk if you don't get it. If you regret leaving you can always come back, though I'd wait 2-3 days and see if they call you. There was a cool Planet Money podcast where an FBI negotiator regales how he bought a car; was pretty cool. Generally you're better off being nice than a dick; only desperate people want to play ball with a dick.
    I agree with this so much, even though what I say may sound aggressive and a bit dickish, generally I am very polite, firm but polite, and that sounds awesome. Time to listen to that right now.

  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    Djeet wrote: »
    You do not have to be particularly assertive, just stick to your price and walk if you don't get it. If you regret leaving you can always come back, though I'd wait 2-3 days and see if they call you. There was a cool Planet Money podcast where an FBI negotiator regales how he bought a car; was pretty cool. Generally you're better off being nice than a dick; only desperate people want to play ball with a dick.
    I agree with this so much, even though what I say may sound aggressive and a bit dickish, generally I am very polite, firm but polite, and that sounds awesome. Time to listen to that right now.

    Yep, you don't have to be a dick, just stick to your guns. You don't owe them anything beyond common courtesy. When my fiance and I were poking around cars, this happened: we had some guy try to give us the hard sell, which I then broke down into all his inconsistencies throughout the sales pitch and asked him if he thought I was an idiot. He replied no, and I asked why he kept treating me like one (lying about things like invoice etc., which take all of 10 seconds to look up on a smartphone). I wasn't mean, but I didn't take any shit.

  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    edited May 2013
    xThanatoSx wrote: »
    Hmmm... the last car my wife and I bought was an ex-rental that we picked up at Carmax and we haven't had any issues with it.

    So while YMMV on that, just because it's an ex-rental shouldn't immediately kick it into "not considering it."

    Granted, the car we picked up was a year old and had less than 9k miles on it at the time so it made the decision a bit easier.

    You may have gotten lucky. It's very rare, but it does happen. I'm a mechanic by trade, and my girlfriend was a used car salesperson for about 6 months, until she couldn't live with herself and quit to go work in a supermarket.

    Both of us have stories to tell about rental cars, none of them good. Like I said, you may have gotten lucky, but generally it's best to avoid ex-rental cars like a dirty syringe. Rentals are the cars we use to practice our heel-toe gearshifts, to see how much air we can get over those really big speedbumps, to see how long we can redline the engine for before it throws a fault code, to see what the absolute maximum mp/h per gear is, to practice blues brothers-style handbrake parking...

    Like I said, fucked hard and put away wet. Steer clear.

    Donovan Puppyfucker on
  • DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    It's good advice, as Foxworthy says "its like going to a house of ill repute to find a wife." and then yadda yadda anything ridden that long, that hard by that many people, etc etc.

    steam_sig.png
  • AlazullAlazull Your body is not a temple, it's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.Registered User regular
    Alright, waiting to hear back from my bank about the financing. Figured they were a good place to start since hopefully out of any source they'd probably give me the best deal.

    In the meantime still using cars.com as a jumping off point to see what my options are, but figure when I get there not to mention that I'd checked them out online and had a specific car in mind, as I figure that's salespeak for, "I will pay whatever you ask for this car."

    Thanks for all the advice guys, I feel ready to take this on now. I'll let you all know how it went (hopefully) soon enough!

    User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    I'd say that generally, letting your salesperson know you are informed (and on this car specifically) i not really a negative thing. I (and I'm sure it is not uncommon) used to think the way you did, but you should understand you are in complete control here. You have the money, they have an asset they don't want, they want your money.

    So you can go in there saying you love black 2001 accords and so long as you have a wall (e.g. $3500 no more) and you can keep to it, then YOU still define the transaction. There are hundreds of black accords out there for you to buy.

    Do not go in there fearing you're going to get fucked, that is the path to getting fucked. You go in, you want this car, you have a budget, and if they cannot meet it, you walk. You may have to do this a couple times. It may inform what you think the selling price is, but the methodology is the same.

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