Lets talk about this male power fantasy thing. Why does it sell? Because there are a lot of men that are powerless in their everyday life. From my perspective a big problem with feminism in general has been that it looks at the men at the top of society, and then uses that to make generalizations about the state of society, and the male experience in general. It ignores the fact that under those powerful men at the top of society is a lot of men that are completely powerless to change anything about their life, much moreso than the average woman is.
Women as a group of people have little trouble getting positive attention from men. The inverse is not true. Life is a female power fantasy. If a woman wants to feel powerful all she needs to do is dress up and go to a place where men will be. For the average man to feel powerful, he must look at a version of reality that is completely alien to his current life circumstances.
Men need power fantasies. That's why it sells. I honestly do not think that games about empowering women in the same ways that men are made to feel empowered will sell. The social and dating dynamics of our societies empower women, men have no equivalent.
All that means is that the "female power fantasy" will involve the woman being empowered in the ways in which society currently disempowers women.
So a woman admiral or CEO ballbuster perhaps instead of a muscular dude who has women fling themselves into his orbit.
Unless your premise is that society only empowers women and disempowers men which would be retarded so I'm going to assume you meant it the other way that at least has some sliver of truth to it.
My general premise is that the average woman is empowered by society relative to the average man. Additionally, I think the actual fantasies that women have are very different than we imagine them to be. I think if you look at the women that actually fantasize about being a CEO, your looking at an extreme minority of women. Heck, even if were talking about men, your looking at a very small percentage.
Women are empowered by their gender, whereas men are, if they are at all, are empowered by their careers. The fact of the matter is our economy is pyramid shaped, for every man in a position that makes him feel even marginally empowered, there are 10+ men in a position that makes them feel powerless. I think your average power fantasy for women is going to be one that is very different from a CEO or admiral. I think those are fundamentally male power fantasies.
Can you actually back that up in anyway?
Because getting (on average) lower wages for equal work, being less likely to be hired for a long term position (because every female will have this irresistible urge to quit, pop some babies, and never do anything else, ever), being constantly bombarded by media about how their self worth is dependent on their looks/spouse (men get that too, but less so), and lot higher change of getting raped (more often that not, by someone they know), does not sound all that awesome to me.
Women as a group of people have little trouble getting positive attention from men. The inverse is not true. Life is a female power fantasy. If a woman wants to feel powerful all she needs to do is dress up and go to a place where men will be.
Umm, what about women who don't fit cultural ideas of attractiveness? What about conventionally attractive women that get unwanted attention from men based on their looks constantly? I don't think sexualized statements and actions count as positive attention unless they are wanted.
I will agree that men can have it bad, too, but the degree of harm overall doesn't approach what women experience.
I think what he was getting at is the trend, which has been reported on in the media, and backed up by statistics, so please don't jawdrop and call me a liar, in which more and more women are choosing to go it alone and forge their own lives as working women and single mothers and not marrying.
It seems to be working out moderately well for them.
It doesn't work out so well for men, who literally don't live as long and get depressed a lot more if they try to go it alone without getting married.
So yeah, the current trend in romance and mating is bad for men. This does not mean "women, you have to get married because of the poor guys" so please don't strawman this statement all to hell.
Women are empowered by their gender, whereas men are, if they are at all, are empowered by their careers. The fact of the matter is our economy is pyramid shaped, for every man in a position that makes him feel even marginally empowered, there are 10+ men in a position that makes them feel powerless. I think your average power fantasy for women is going to be one that is very different from a CEO or admiral. I think those are fundamentally male power fantasies.
Because our culture portrays them as fundamentally male power fantasies.
Girls and women are told, constantly, that the most important thing that empowers them is the appearance.
Boys and men are also (increasingly) sent messages about their physical appearance, but not to nearly the same extent. But they're also given other, stronger, messages about how they can empower themselves in other ways like their careers.
Also, poverty is disempowering, period. Do you think that poor women don't feel powerless?
Lets talk about this male power fantasy thing. Why does it sell? Because there are a lot of men that are powerless in their everyday life. From my perspective a big problem with feminism in general has been that it looks at the men at the top of society, and then uses that to make generalizations about the state of society, and the male experience in general. It ignores the fact that under those powerful men at the top of society is a lot of men that are completely powerless to change anything about their life, much moreso than the average woman is.
Women as a group of people have little trouble getting positive attention from men. The inverse is not true. Life is a female power fantasy. If a woman wants to feel powerful all she needs to do is dress up and go to a place where men will be. For the average man to feel powerful, he must look at a version of reality that is completely alien to his current life circumstances.
Men need power fantasies. That's why it sells. I honestly do not think that games about empowering women in the same ways that men are made to feel empowered will sell. The social and dating dynamics of our societies empower women, men have no equivalent.
Women as a group of people have little trouble getting positive attention from men. The inverse is not true. Life is a female power fantasy. If a woman wants to feel powerful all she needs to do is dress up and go to a place where men will be. For the average man to feel powerful, he must look at a version of reality that is completely alien to his current life circumstances.
Edited for reality.
The idea that all attention from men is empowering to women is, frankly, like fifteen different flavors of fucked up and silly.
Because, you know, not all attention from men (or other women) is wanted or positive. Catcalls and insults and rape threats and threats of violence are certainly "attention" but they're not exactly empowering, are they?
Not to mention it implies that the only way a woman can or should feel powerful is by appealing to men.
Not to mention that it assumes all women, no matter their age, or race, or appearance, or sexual orientation, or ability, or any other aspect of their outward appearance or personality, can just dress up and parade in front of some dudes who will shower her with positive attention.
Men need power fantasies. That's why it sells. I honestly do not think that games about empowering women in the same ways that men are made to feel empowered will sell. The social and dating dynamics of our societies empower women, men have no equivalent.
Power fantasies aren't inherently bad, but they're not only needed (or wanted, to be more accurate) by one gender.
And the idea that society does nothing to empower men (or give them a sense of empowerment) is also, incredibly silly.
1: I didn't say all male attention is positive. What I said was that getting positive attention from the opposite sex is something that can easily be done by most women, the same is not true for most men.
2: Attractiveness plays a role, but your average women could easily get positive attention from a variety of men simply by being out in public while wearing clothes that accentuate her looks.
3: A lot of men genuinely need for their self esteem for at some point in their day to feel like they have some kind of power and influence over something, or that their needs and drives actually matter to anyone but themselves, and the only way that's going to happen is through a fantasy.
4: There are fundamental differences between how men and women are valued in our society. One of the main points I've been trying to make is that I believe female power fantasies are fundamentally different, I'm trying to make this point because I read posts earlier in this topic saying that women just want the same kinds of things they just want women doing them rather than men, and I think that is erroneous.
Women as a group of people have little trouble getting positive attention from men. The inverse is not true. Life is a female power fantasy. If a woman wants to feel powerful all she needs to do is dress up and go to a place where men will be.
Umm, what about women who don't fit cultural ideas of attractiveness? What about conventionally attractive women that get unwanted attention from men based on their looks constantly? I don't think sexualized statements and actions count as positive attention unless they are wanted.
I will agree that men can have it bad, too, but the degree of harm overall doesn't approach what women experience.
I think what he was getting at is the trend, which has been reported on in the media, and backed up by statistics, so please don't jawdrop and call me a liar, in which more and more women are choosing to go it alone and forge their own lives as working women and single mothers and not marrying.
It seems to be working out moderately well for them.
It doesn't work out so well for men, who literally don't live as long and get depressed a lot more if they try to go it alone without getting married.
So yeah, the current trend in romance and mating is bad for men. This does not mean "women, you have to get married because of the poor guys" so please don't strawman this statement all to hell.
I think your interpretation of his statements are overly charitable, but I agree that the cultural standards of dating are pretty terrible in that they help make women even more insecure about their appearance and make men feel insecure about being rejected. Putting the onus of attracting positive romantic attention entirely on women and making men entirely responsible for initiating romance is a recipe for unhealthy self-image and problematic attitudes towards the opposite sex.
1: I didn't say all male attention is positive. What I said was that getting positive attention from the opposite sex is something that can easily be done by most women, the same is not true for most men.
Again, younger, able-bodied, attractive women usually get attention from heterosexual men during their daily lives. The idea that this attention is mostly positive, or that it's seen as positive by the women themselves, or that women should be seeking out male attention as their primary way of empowering themselves, is more fantasy than reality.
2: Attractiveness plays a role, but your average women could easily get positive attention from a variety of men simply by being out in public while wearing clothes that accentuate her looks.
No, not really. And again, they'll also get a whole lot of negative attention as well.
Seriously, you think that the main way women should and do feel empowered is by dressing and acting in ways that are designed to appeal to other people?
By that logic, should men empower themselves by dressing up in something sexy and walking around the nearest gay neighborhood since obviously most men can get attention from gay men?
3: A lot of men genuinely need for their self esteem for at some point in their day to feel like they have some kind of power and influence over something, or that their needs and drives actually matter to anyone but themselves, and the only way that's going to happen is through a fantasy.
Why do only men feel they need to have agency in their lives?
Is this something biologically innate, or socially constructed?
4: There are fundamental differences between how men and women are valued in our society. One of the main points I've been trying to make is that I believe female power fantasies are fundamentally different, I'm trying to make this point because I read posts earlier in this topic saying that women just want the same kinds of things they just want women doing them rather than men, and I think that is erroneous.
Again, media doesn't just reflect social and cultural values, they promote and instill them.
If you have a media that tells young girls that they should primarily value their appearance and the attention they get from boys, and not bother with anything else, then it's not surprising that the vast majority of girls and women internalize those messages.
That "fundamental difference" is something the media created and perpetuated, and can also shift.
The problems are when only one form of positive attention is considered culturally acceptable (for example, young girls should focus on their appearance, not their grades or careers), or when the folks paying that attention feel they alone decide if that attention is positive.
Attractiveness plays a role, but your average women could easily get positive attention from a variety of men simply by being out in public while wearing clothes that accentuate her looks.
Or they could get unwanted attention, or they could get negative comments on their looks. Also, what if they don't care about such attention? Is there any alternate means of empowerment?
3: A lot of men genuinely need for their self esteem for at some point in their day to feel like they have some kind of power and influence over something, or that their needs and drives actually matter to anyone but themselves, and the only way that's going to happen is through a fantasy.
I'm pretty sure women like to feel like they have power and influence over things, bro.
I think your interpretation of his statements are overly charitable, but I agree that the cultural standards of dating are pretty terrible in that they help make women even more insecure about their appearance and make men feel insecure about being rejected. Putting the onus of attracting positive romantic attention entirely on women and making men entirely responsible for initiating romance is a recipe for unhealthy self-image and problematic attitudes towards the opposite sex.
Probably I am being charitable based on what has been posted since. However, I stand by my premise which is simply that the male power fantasy can't be gender swapped for women, but that there certainly are 'female power fantasies' to be had based on the way in which society disempowers women.
When we talk about sexism IRT women, the first thing that always comes is employment issues and the wage gap. So to me, the logical female power fantasy is something work related. So, maybe women would respond to a Tycoon style sim that is cast as being about women. Throw in some reverse Mad Men cut scenes where the player gets promoted over her douchey sexual harassing boss and fires his ass. Instant best seller?
The problems are when only one form of positive attention is considered culturally acceptable (for example, young girls should focus on their appearance, not their grades or careers), or when the folks paying that attention feel they alone decide if that attention is positive.
It can be but they're not synonymous is what I mean, I give my cat a lot of positive attention.
Lets talk about this male power fantasy thing. Why does it sell? Because there are a lot of men that are powerless in their everyday life. From my perspective a big problem with feminism in general has been that it looks at the men at the top of society, and then uses that to make generalizations about the state of society, and the male experience in general. It ignores the fact that under those powerful men at the top of society is a lot of men that are completely powerless to change anything about their life, much moreso than the average woman is.
Women as a group of people have little trouble getting positive attention from men. The inverse is not true. Life is a female power fantasy. If a woman wants to feel powerful all she needs to do is dress up and go to a place where men will be. For the average man to feel powerful, he must look at a version of reality that is completely alien to his current life circumstances.
Men need power fantasies. That's why it sells. I honestly do not think that games about empowering women in the same ways that men are made to feel empowered will sell. The social and dating dynamics of our societies empower women, men have no equivalent.
All that means is that the "female power fantasy" will involve the woman being empowered in the ways in which society currently disempowers women.
So a woman admiral or CEO ballbuster perhaps instead of a muscular dude who has women fling themselves into his orbit.
Unless your premise is that society only empowers women and disempowers men which would be retarded so I'm going to assume you meant it the other way that at least has some sliver of truth to it.
My general premise is that the average woman is empowered by society relative to the average man. Additionally, I think the actual fantasies that women have are very different than we imagine them to be. I think if you look at the women that actually fantasize about being a CEO, your looking at an extreme minority of women. Heck, even if were talking about men, your looking at a very small percentage.
Women are empowered by their gender, whereas men are, if they are at all, are empowered by their careers. The fact of the matter is our economy is pyramid shaped, for every man in a position that makes him feel even marginally empowered, there are 10+ men in a position that makes them feel powerless. I think your average power fantasy for women is going to be one that is very different from a CEO or admiral. I think those are fundamentally male power fantasies.
Can you actually back that up in anyway?
Because getting (on average) lower wages for equal work, being less likely to be hired for a long term position (because every female will have this irresistible urge to quit, pop some babies, and never do anything else, ever), being constantly bombarded by media about how their self worth is dependent on their looks/spouse (men get that too, but less so), and lot higher change of getting raped (more often that not, by someone they know), does not sound all that awesome to me.
Checkout the Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries Charts, page 8. Men account for 92 percent of workplace deaths.
When women have problems, men listen. When men have problems, they are told to quit their bellyaching. Positive attention is empowerment. It's empowerment to be heard, to be noticed. If men were empowered by society in any meaningful way, I don't see how they would make up the overwhelming majority of workplace deaths or how they would be significantly overrepresented in the homeless population.
Edit: The concept that men are being relegated to dangerous occupations due to male invisibility is a difficult assertion to support. In large part because it's incorrect.
Lets talk about this male power fantasy thing. Why does it sell? Because there are a lot of men that are powerless in their everyday life. From my perspective a big problem with feminism in general has been that it looks at the men at the top of society, and then uses that to make generalizations about the state of society, and the male experience in general. It ignores the fact that under those powerful men at the top of society is a lot of men that are completely powerless to change anything about their life, much moreso than the average woman is.
Women as a group of people have little trouble getting positive attention from men. The inverse is not true. Life is a female power fantasy. If a woman wants to feel powerful all she needs to do is dress up and go to a place where men will be. For the average man to feel powerful, he must look at a version of reality that is completely alien to his current life circumstances.
Men need power fantasies. That's why it sells. I honestly do not think that games about empowering women in the same ways that men are made to feel empowered will sell. The social and dating dynamics of our societies empower women, men have no equivalent.
All that means is that the "female power fantasy" will involve the woman being empowered in the ways in which society currently disempowers women.
So a woman admiral or CEO ballbuster perhaps instead of a muscular dude who has women fling themselves into his orbit.
Unless your premise is that society only empowers women and disempowers men which would be retarded so I'm going to assume you meant it the other way that at least has some sliver of truth to it.
My general premise is that the average woman is empowered by society relative to the average man. Additionally, I think the actual fantasies that women have are very different than we imagine them to be. I think if you look at the women that actually fantasize about being a CEO, your looking at an extreme minority of women. Heck, even if were talking about men, your looking at a very small percentage.
Women are empowered by their gender, whereas men are, if they are at all, are empowered by their careers. The fact of the matter is our economy is pyramid shaped, for every man in a position that makes him feel even marginally empowered, there are 10+ men in a position that makes them feel powerless. I think your average power fantasy for women is going to be one that is very different from a CEO or admiral. I think those are fundamentally male power fantasies.
Can you actually back that up in anyway?
Because getting (on average) lower wages for equal work, being less likely to be hired for a long term position (because every female will have this irresistible urge to quit, pop some babies, and never do anything else, ever), being constantly bombarded by media about how their self worth is dependent on their looks/spouse (men get that too, but less so), and lot higher change of getting raped (more often that not, by someone they know), does not sound all that awesome to me.
Checkout the Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries Charts, page 8. Men account for 92 percent of workplace deaths.
When women have problems, men listen. When men have problems, they are told to quit their bellyaching. Positive attention is empowerment. It's empowerment to be heard, to be noticed. If men were empowered by society in any meaningful way, I don't see how they would make up the overwhelming majority of workplace deaths or how they would be significantly overrepresented in the homeless population.
Regarding workplace deaths, that could be explained by many of those types of high-risk jobs are also seen as "man's work" and that women are discouraged from taking or maintaining those positions. If mostly men are lumberjacks than mostly men will get hurt or killed.
Regarding the homeless, it could be that men are less likely to ask for financial help from their family and friends. Many men value self-sufficiency and wouldn't want to know that they can't help themselves.
I don't understand what your definition of empowerment is, I mean in a situations where women aren't allowed to fight on the front lines of a war there's gonna be a lot of men dying in war and not a lot of women. That doesn't mean the women are being empowered.
If I cry as a man and someone tells me to suck it up what they're saying is "as a man you ought to be able to take action and fix this". Yeah it sucks, isnt necessarily the best advice and shouldn't be the default answer we go to for mens problems. But its not quite the same thing as being disempowered.
Edit: The concept that men are being relegated to dangerous occupations due to male invisibility is a difficult assertion to support. In large part because it's incorrect.
They aren't relegated to these positions. Is what i believe happens is that for the majority of men the only way they can feel empowered is through their career, and for a lot of men the only way to make a living that will allow them to support a family is by doing something that is dangerous. I believe men are much more willing to do the dangerous occupations because it's the only pathway to a positive male identity they can see.
Alternatively, how would you explain the fact that men die trying to make a living at much higher rates than women?
When women have problems, men listen. When men have problems, they are told to quit their bellyaching. Positive attention is empowerment. It's empowerment to be heard, to be noticed. If men were empowered by society in any meaningful way, I don't see how they would make up the overwhelming majority of workplace deaths or how they would be significantly overrepresented in the homeless population.
The concept of men always listening to women's problems can be disputed by one word: "feminism".
But to be less snarky, you're making a lot of really odd, unsupported logical leaps here.
First, yes, there are aspects of the culturally-approved definition of masculinity that are harmful to men, especially those who fall outside other cultural norms or are otherwise excluded from society.
This does not mean that men, as a group, are not empowered as a group, nor does it mean that women, as a group, are.
For example, women are more likely to be victims of sexual assault than men, just as homeless people are more likely to be men. How does that mean that men are not empowered by society but women are?
Edit: The concept that men are being relegated to dangerous occupations due to male invisibility is a difficult assertion to support. In large part because it's incorrect.
They aren't relegated to these positions. Is what i believe happens is that for the majority of men the only way they can feel empowered is through their career, and for a lot of men the only way to make a living that will allow them to support a family is by doing something that is dangerous. I believe men are much more willing to do the dangerous occupations because it's the only pathway to a positive male identity they can see.
Alternatively, how would you explain the fact that men die trying to make a living at much higher rates than women?
Surely what you're describing is disempowerment by way of your economic class then?
I mean women do shitty jobs too, but its more likely to be: maid, cleaner, waitress, ect
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
I disagree strongly about the power imbalance in dating. Women may have the upper hand when it comes to sex crazed high school boys, but in adult dating men usually hold the cards IMO. Well, as long as they have some confidence.
I would go so far as to say that the most important thing for a girl is to be pretty and the most important thing for a man is to be confident. Smarts, strength, sense of humor, etc. are all secondary.
When women have problems, men listen. When men have problems, they are told to quit their bellyaching. Positive attention is empowerment. It's empowerment to be heard, to be noticed. If men were empowered by society in any meaningful way, I don't see how they would make up the overwhelming majority of workplace deaths or how they would be significantly overrepresented in the homeless population.
The concept of men always listening to women's problems can be disputed by one word: "feminism".
But to be less snarky, you're making a lot of really odd, unsupported logical leaps here.
First, yes, there are aspects of the culturally-approved definition of masculinity that are harmful to men, especially those who fall outside other cultural norms or are otherwise excluded from society.
This does not mean that men, as a group, are not empowered as a group, nor does it mean that women, as a group, are.
For example, women are more likely to be victims of sexual assault than men, just as homeless people are more likely to be men. How does that mean that men are not empowered by society but women are?
Society has infinitely more power to determine who is homeless versus who gets raped. It's apples and oranges. If there was a simple fix to the rape problem we wouldn't have a rape problem.
Feminism has been wildly successful, I think it clearly illustrates that men listen to women's problems, at least when women can agree on what those problems are. The biggest problem feminism has ever faced in dealing with any issue, has been to get the majority of women to adopt a position.
Edit: SKFM... Your a well off lawyer. Your in the top 1% of men that really does have advantages above and beyond what exists for the vast majority of society. From what you've previously described, I believe you spend more on your wardrobe on a yearly basis than my car and everything I own is worth combined. I don't think what you experience is anything close to normal.
I mean, it's totally cool and all to talk about the endemic problems men face in society. There are a lot of them.
But to jump from there to conclude that women have it better off than men?
Even from my highly unorthodox position (see p.87) I can see that this is ridiculous. Problems aren't fake or exaggerated just because you have more trouble seeing them in your personal life.
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
Society has infinitely more power to determine who is homeless versus who gets raped. It's apples and oranges. If there was a simple fix to the rape problem we wouldn't have a rape problem.
So there's a simple fix to the problem of homelessness?
And what does the complexity of dealing with sexual assault have to do with this claim that women are "empowered" by society based on their gender.
Being paid less, harassed more, and being much more likely to be the victim of sexual assault sure doesn't sound "empowering" to me.
Feminism has been wildly successful, I think it clearly illustrates that men listen to women's problems, at least when women can agree on what those problems are. The biggest problem feminism has ever faced in dealing with any issue, has been to get the majority of women to adopt a position.
When women have problems, men listen. When men have problems, they are told to quit their bellyaching. Positive attention is empowerment. It's empowerment to be heard, to be noticed. If men were empowered by society in any meaningful way, I don't see how they would make up the overwhelming majority of workplace deaths or how they would be significantly overrepresented in the homeless population.
The concept of men always listening to women's problems can be disputed by one word: "feminism".
But to be less snarky, you're making a lot of really odd, unsupported logical leaps here.
First, yes, there are aspects of the culturally-approved definition of masculinity that are harmful to men, especially those who fall outside other cultural norms or are otherwise excluded from society.
This does not mean that men, as a group, are not empowered as a group, nor does it mean that women, as a group, are.
For example, women are more likely to be victims of sexual assault than men, just as homeless people are more likely to be men. How does that mean that men are not empowered by society but women are?
Society has infinitely more power to determine who is homeless versus who gets raped. It's apples and oranges. If there was a simple fix to the rape problem we wouldn't have a rape problem.
By the same logic if there were a simple way to fix the homeless problem there wouldn't be a homeless problem.
Also when women are raped they're not raped by someone "outside society".
I disagree strongly about the power imbalance in dating. Women may have the upper hand when it comes to sex crazed high school boys, but in adult dating men usually hold the cards IMO. Well, as long as they have some confidence.
I would go so far as to say that the most important thing for a girl is to be pretty and the most important thing for a man is to be confident. Smarts, strength, sense of humor, etc. are all secondary.
Indeed, a guy who goes around a bar hitting on women may be putting in more legwork than the women, but his role is active, not passive. He chooses who he approaches, they don't get to choose who approaches them.
Edit: SKFM... Your a well off lawyer. Your in the top 1% of men that really does have advantages above and beyond what exists for the vast majority of society. From what you've previously described, I believe you spend more on your wardrobe on a yearly basis than my car and everything I own is worth combined. I don't think what you experience is anything close to normal.
No, seriously, intersectionality. It's a pretty helpful concept to grasp.
Different social statuses and categories have overlapping influences. Class and gender are just two of them.
Wealthy men have different experiences than wealthy women, or poor men.
Pointing out that men on the severe lowest end of the economic ladder, to the point where they have essentially been rendered invisible to society, have it worse than people of either gender at the other end of the spectrum (and man, I don't think even SKFM is Romney Rich, but let's just assume he qualifies) doesn't make gender discrimination vanish.
I mean, it's totally cool and all to talk about the endemic problems men face in society. There are a lot of them.
But to jump from there to conclude that women have it better off than men?
Even from my highly unorthodox position (see p.87) I can see that this is ridiculous. Problems aren't fake or exaggerated just because you have more trouble seeing them in your personal life.
I haven't tried to say that women's problems are fake or exaggerated. The main point I've been trying to make is that the nature of these problems are fundamentally different. The average woman enjoy a degree of social power and influence that is very different from what the average man has. I think this has a big impact on what kinds of things appeal to men and women.
Edit: The concept that men are being relegated to dangerous occupations due to male invisibility is a difficult assertion to support. In large part because it's incorrect.
They aren't relegated to these positions. Is what i believe happens is that for the majority of men the only way they can feel empowered is through their career, and for a lot of men the only way to make a living that will allow them to support a family is by doing something that is dangerous. I believe men are much more willing to do the dangerous occupations because it's the only pathway to a positive male identity they can see.
Alternatively, how would you explain the fact that men die trying to make a living at much higher rates than women?
Surely what you're describing is disempowerment by way of your economic class then?
I mean women do shitty jobs too, but its more likely to be: maid, cleaner, waitress, ect
Where, instead of dying from mining accident (or something), they are instead sexually harassed by customers, employers, fellow employees.
So, yay?
This whole claim that women are somehow in better position than men just because they are women, and therefore get lot of attention from horny men and aren't forced (or, quite possibly, allowed) to work in mines is totally nonsensical to me.
Turning this into a general feminism thread is a really poor way to conclude what has been an otherwise mostly civil thread about video games and sexism.
My only suggestion for a new sexism in gaming thread is that it be titled either "Sexism In Gaming IV: A New Hope" or "Sexism In Gaming IV: Citizens On Patrol".
Turning this into a general feminism thread is a really poor way to conclude what has been an otherwise mostly civil thread about video games and sexism.
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Can you actually back that up in anyway?
Because getting (on average) lower wages for equal work, being less likely to be hired for a long term position (because every female will have this irresistible urge to quit, pop some babies, and never do anything else, ever), being constantly bombarded by media about how their self worth is dependent on their looks/spouse (men get that too, but less so), and lot higher change of getting raped (more often that not, by someone they know), does not sound all that awesome to me.
I think what he was getting at is the trend, which has been reported on in the media, and backed up by statistics, so please don't jawdrop and call me a liar, in which more and more women are choosing to go it alone and forge their own lives as working women and single mothers and not marrying.
It seems to be working out moderately well for them.
It doesn't work out so well for men, who literally don't live as long and get depressed a lot more if they try to go it alone without getting married.
So yeah, the current trend in romance and mating is bad for men. This does not mean "women, you have to get married because of the poor guys" so please don't strawman this statement all to hell.
Because our culture portrays them as fundamentally male power fantasies.
Girls and women are told, constantly, that the most important thing that empowers them is the appearance.
Boys and men are also (increasingly) sent messages about their physical appearance, but not to nearly the same extent. But they're also given other, stronger, messages about how they can empower themselves in other ways like their careers.
Also, poverty is disempowering, period. Do you think that poor women don't feel powerless?
Or, in academic jargon, intersectionality is a thing that exists.
Empowered in what way?
Positive attention isn't empowerment.
1: I didn't say all male attention is positive. What I said was that getting positive attention from the opposite sex is something that can easily be done by most women, the same is not true for most men.
2: Attractiveness plays a role, but your average women could easily get positive attention from a variety of men simply by being out in public while wearing clothes that accentuate her looks.
3: A lot of men genuinely need for their self esteem for at some point in their day to feel like they have some kind of power and influence over something, or that their needs and drives actually matter to anyone but themselves, and the only way that's going to happen is through a fantasy.
4: There are fundamental differences between how men and women are valued in our society. One of the main points I've been trying to make is that I believe female power fantasies are fundamentally different, I'm trying to make this point because I read posts earlier in this topic saying that women just want the same kinds of things they just want women doing them rather than men, and I think that is erroneous.
I think your interpretation of his statements are overly charitable, but I agree that the cultural standards of dating are pretty terrible in that they help make women even more insecure about their appearance and make men feel insecure about being rejected. Putting the onus of attracting positive romantic attention entirely on women and making men entirely responsible for initiating romance is a recipe for unhealthy self-image and problematic attitudes towards the opposite sex.
Again, younger, able-bodied, attractive women usually get attention from heterosexual men during their daily lives. The idea that this attention is mostly positive, or that it's seen as positive by the women themselves, or that women should be seeking out male attention as their primary way of empowering themselves, is more fantasy than reality.
No, not really. And again, they'll also get a whole lot of negative attention as well.
Seriously, you think that the main way women should and do feel empowered is by dressing and acting in ways that are designed to appeal to other people?
By that logic, should men empower themselves by dressing up in something sexy and walking around the nearest gay neighborhood since obviously most men can get attention from gay men?
Why do only men feel they need to have agency in their lives?
Is this something biologically innate, or socially constructed?
Again, media doesn't just reflect social and cultural values, they promote and instill them.
If you have a media that tells young girls that they should primarily value their appearance and the attention they get from boys, and not bother with anything else, then it's not surprising that the vast majority of girls and women internalize those messages.
That "fundamental difference" is something the media created and perpetuated, and can also shift.
It can be.
The problems are when only one form of positive attention is considered culturally acceptable (for example, young girls should focus on their appearance, not their grades or careers), or when the folks paying that attention feel they alone decide if that attention is positive.
Or they could get unwanted attention, or they could get negative comments on their looks. Also, what if they don't care about such attention? Is there any alternate means of empowerment?
I'm pretty sure women like to feel like they have power and influence over things, bro.
Probably I am being charitable based on what has been posted since. However, I stand by my premise which is simply that the male power fantasy can't be gender swapped for women, but that there certainly are 'female power fantasies' to be had based on the way in which society disempowers women.
When we talk about sexism IRT women, the first thing that always comes is employment issues and the wage gap. So to me, the logical female power fantasy is something work related. So, maybe women would respond to a Tycoon style sim that is cast as being about women. Throw in some reverse Mad Men cut scenes where the player gets promoted over her douchey sexual harassing boss and fires his ass. Instant best seller?
It can be but they're not synonymous is what I mean, I give my cat a lot of positive attention.
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/who.html
“However, 67.5% of the single homeless population is male and it is this single population that makes up 76% of the homeless populations surveyed ”
http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshcfoi1.htm
Checkout the Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries Charts, page 8. Men account for 92 percent of workplace deaths.
When women have problems, men listen. When men have problems, they are told to quit their bellyaching. Positive attention is empowerment. It's empowerment to be heard, to be noticed. If men were empowered by society in any meaningful way, I don't see how they would make up the overwhelming majority of workplace deaths or how they would be significantly overrepresented in the homeless population.
In fact, here's a game about that! Female Experience Simulator
Edit: The concept that men are being relegated to dangerous occupations due to male invisibility is a difficult assertion to support. In large part because it's incorrect.
Regarding workplace deaths, that could be explained by many of those types of high-risk jobs are also seen as "man's work" and that women are discouraged from taking or maintaining those positions. If mostly men are lumberjacks than mostly men will get hurt or killed.
Regarding the homeless, it could be that men are less likely to ask for financial help from their family and friends. Many men value self-sufficiency and wouldn't want to know that they can't help themselves.
If I cry as a man and someone tells me to suck it up what they're saying is "as a man you ought to be able to take action and fix this". Yeah it sucks, isnt necessarily the best advice and shouldn't be the default answer we go to for mens problems. But its not quite the same thing as being disempowered.
They aren't relegated to these positions. Is what i believe happens is that for the majority of men the only way they can feel empowered is through their career, and for a lot of men the only way to make a living that will allow them to support a family is by doing something that is dangerous. I believe men are much more willing to do the dangerous occupations because it's the only pathway to a positive male identity they can see.
Alternatively, how would you explain the fact that men die trying to make a living at much higher rates than women?
The concept of men always listening to women's problems can be disputed by one word: "feminism".
But to be less snarky, you're making a lot of really odd, unsupported logical leaps here.
First, yes, there are aspects of the culturally-approved definition of masculinity that are harmful to men, especially those who fall outside other cultural norms or are otherwise excluded from society.
This does not mean that men, as a group, are not empowered as a group, nor does it mean that women, as a group, are.
For example, women are more likely to be victims of sexual assault than men, just as homeless people are more likely to be men. How does that mean that men are not empowered by society but women are?
Surely what you're describing is disempowerment by way of your economic class then?
I mean women do shitty jobs too, but its more likely to be: maid, cleaner, waitress, ect
I would go so far as to say that the most important thing for a girl is to be pretty and the most important thing for a man is to be confident. Smarts, strength, sense of humor, etc. are all secondary.
Society has infinitely more power to determine who is homeless versus who gets raped. It's apples and oranges. If there was a simple fix to the rape problem we wouldn't have a rape problem.
Feminism has been wildly successful, I think it clearly illustrates that men listen to women's problems, at least when women can agree on what those problems are. The biggest problem feminism has ever faced in dealing with any issue, has been to get the majority of women to adopt a position.
Edit: SKFM... Your a well off lawyer. Your in the top 1% of men that really does have advantages above and beyond what exists for the vast majority of society. From what you've previously described, I believe you spend more on your wardrobe on a yearly basis than my car and everything I own is worth combined. I don't think what you experience is anything close to normal.
But to jump from there to conclude that women have it better off than men?
Even from my highly unorthodox position (see p.87) I can see that this is ridiculous. Problems aren't fake or exaggerated just because you have more trouble seeing them in your personal life.
So there's a simple fix to the problem of homelessness?
And what does the complexity of dealing with sexual assault have to do with this claim that women are "empowered" by society based on their gender.
Being paid less, harassed more, and being much more likely to be the victim of sexual assault sure doesn't sound "empowering" to me.
o_O
By the same logic if there were a simple way to fix the homeless problem there wouldn't be a homeless problem.
Also when women are raped they're not raped by someone "outside society".
Indeed, a guy who goes around a bar hitting on women may be putting in more legwork than the women, but his role is active, not passive. He chooses who he approaches, they don't get to choose who approaches them.
No, seriously, intersectionality. It's a pretty helpful concept to grasp.
Different social statuses and categories have overlapping influences. Class and gender are just two of them.
Wealthy men have different experiences than wealthy women, or poor men.
Pointing out that men on the severe lowest end of the economic ladder, to the point where they have essentially been rendered invisible to society, have it worse than people of either gender at the other end of the spectrum (and man, I don't think even SKFM is Romney Rich, but let's just assume he qualifies) doesn't make gender discrimination vanish.
I haven't tried to say that women's problems are fake or exaggerated. The main point I've been trying to make is that the nature of these problems are fundamentally different. The average woman enjoy a degree of social power and influence that is very different from what the average man has. I think this has a big impact on what kinds of things appeal to men and women.
Where, instead of dying from mining accident (or something), they are instead sexually harassed by customers, employers, fellow employees.
So, yay?
This whole claim that women are somehow in better position than men just because they are women, and therefore get lot of attention from horny men and aren't forced (or, quite possibly, allowed) to work in mines is totally nonsensical to me.
think she still has life in her?
if so, anyone want to volunteer to remake?
I think its inevitable to be honest.
New thread is up
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/181788/sexism-in-gaming-iv-forumers-on-patrol#latest
First post is still undergoing renovations.
geth, close the thread
geth, close the thread