Firefly wouldn't see as much conversation if upon every mention people didn't feel the need to go "you know, I actually didn't like Firefly. I think it's stupid. That's how different I am. That famous good thing isn't something I like. My tastes are rarified."
Is there a name for this? There has to be a psychology term for it at this point
I actually have a problem with how it lazily handled a supposedly multicultural futuristic society with off-handed references like bits and pieces of garbled Mandarin phrases, no substance to the Sino-American Alliance, the desperate rationalising I've seen people do in regards to this by coming up with non-canon explanations that are just easy sidesteps to a larger issue, a tiny proportion of actual Asian actors in speaking roles, and whedon awkwardly waving off these criticisms but okay sure
I actually have a problem with how it lazily handled a supposedly multicultural futuristic society with off-handed references like bits and pieces of garbled Mandarin phrases, no substance to the Sino-American Alliance, the desperate rationalising I've seen people do in regards to this by coming up with non-canon explanations that are just easy sidesteps to a larger issue, a tiny proportion of actual Asian actors in speaking roles, and whedon awkwardly waving off these criticisms but okay sure
I'm gonna go ahead and say that in a Space Opera, the evil badguys not having much substance to them is not exactly a thing exclusive to Firefly
Also if you're going to let a show that is about character relationships get spoiled by a non-follow-through on basically what is setting and background information... okay, that's your prerogative I guess
I'm kinda sick of "it's the future based on Asia! Yeah we don't have any Asian characters in major or significant roles, but look, people are saying stuff in Chinese and writing in it!"
Pretty much if you're going to imply I shouldn't be a little miffed about a real life culture not actually having a personal presence in a show about "character relations" that are so largely influenced and informed by the setting and background information then sure, keep on keeping on or whatever.
+4
AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
edited August 2013
i also think it's sexist and poorly written, and considering it got a movie, an rpg, merch, comic books, a video game, and jokey references in network sitcoms firefly fans can move from bargaining to acceptance especially because jesus, it was canned over a fucking decade ago
i also think it's sexist and poorly written, and considering it got a movie, an rpg, merch, comic books, a video game, and jokey references in network sitcoms firefly fans can move from bargaining to acceptance especially because jesus, it was canned over a fucking decade ago
I have genuinely never heard Joss Whedon described as sexist
i also think it's sexist and poorly written, and considering it got a movie, an rpg, merch, comic books, a video game, and jokey references in network sitcoms firefly fans can move from bargaining to acceptance especially because jesus, it was canned over a fucking decade ago
I have genuinely never heard Joss Whedon described as sexist
The poorly written part sure
There was a blog post doing the rounds a few years ago which accused him of being a misogynist, it was psychotic.
i also think it's sexist and poorly written, and considering it got a movie, an rpg, merch, comic books, a video game, and jokey references in network sitcoms firefly fans can move from bargaining to acceptance especially because jesus, it was canned over a fucking decade ago
I have genuinely never heard Joss Whedon described as sexist
The poorly written part sure
There was a blog post doing the rounds a few years ago which accused him of being a misogynist, it was psychotic.
Like
I can't think of a thing he's written for that didn't have a strong leading lady
His X-Men run is what made me actually start liking Kitty Pride
Edit: To be clear I'm not dismissing the claim and would like to hear why Anti thinks that, it just confused me
The ratio of people on this forum talking about Firefly to people complaining about people who talk about firefly is about 1:9. People will bitch about it for hours but I can't remember the last time I saw someone say "hey guys out of gas was a fun episode".
I don't like Firefly that much (I enjoyed it, it was neat) but I reject out of hand the idea that "browncoats" (ugh) are more strident and annoying than Firefly haters because the former don't really stray out of their own specialist websites and the latter are everywhere and want to let you know all the time that they don't like that show and wish people would stop going on about it.
+14
AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
well i mean there's the whole thing prostitution being a noble form of employment in firefly thing
I don't like Firefly that much (I enjoyed it, it was neat) but I reject out of hand the idea that "browncoats" (ugh) are more strident and annoying than Firefly haters because the former don't really stray out of their own specialist websites and the latter are everywhere and want to let you know all the time that they don't like that show and wish people would stop going on about it.
The only time I've seen that attitude is when people are talking about firefly, and then have criticisms or different opinions about it
Like almost every other piece of popular fiction
And I mean you're of course going to get more of the latter because they're not part of a club or specialist group, they're just people who came across the show and didn't like it and are of course going to chime in.
0
AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
well i mean there's the whole thing prostitution being a noble form of employment in firefly thing
Ok
I am going to ask this as delicately as possible
How is treating a person who chooses to make money with their sexuality like an equal more sexist than making it illegal and ostracizing them from society
Also I'm fairly certain Male Companions are mentioned in the series but I could be wrong
well i mean there's the whole thing prostitution being a noble form of employment in firefly thing
Ok
I am going to ask this as delicately as possible
How is treating a person who chooses to make money with their sexuality like an equal more sexist than making it illegal and ostracizing them from society
Also I'm fairly certain Male Companions are mentioned in the series but I could be wrong
well i mean there's the whole thing prostitution being a noble form of employment in firefly thing
Ok
I am going to ask this as delicately as possible
How is treating a person who chooses to make money with their sexuality like an equal more sexist than making it illegal and ostracizing them from society
Also I'm fairly certain Male Companions are mentioned in the series but I could be wrong
Yes there are male companions.
Is that in the TV show? The only ones I remember were at the Heart of Gold, which was unlicensed.
I know you see them in the movie, where Inara was hanging out before she rejoined the crew. I think they were mentioned in dialogue before that, but I'd have to rewatch the series to be sure.
UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
there have been two movies where my disdain for the shit on screen overwhelmed my consideration for anyone who might inexplicably be enjoying it, leading for me to make sarcastic comments during the film
Starship Troopers was one, and the D&D movie was the other.
there have been two movies where my disdain for the shit on screen overwhelmed my consideration for anyone who might inexplicably be enjoying it, leading for me to make sarcastic comments during the film
Starship Troopers was one, and the D&D movie was the other.
Weirdly, while the direct-to-dvd sequel for the D&D movie is not good, it is far more representative of a D&D game and I kind of enjoy it for that
I think it is possible to discuss the merits of Firefly without resorting to ad hominem, "people who don't like it are just trying to be unique opinion snowflakes"
I quite liked it for what it was, a schlocky sci-fi show featuring actors I love, some good character beats, and some problematic elements that are usually more nuanced than its critics give the show credit for. Companions showed prostitution in a "noble" light (even though the main character is a constant critic of the institution as inherently demeaning) by specifically and explicitly showing how it would need to be divorced from the sex trade as we know it.
Asian invisibility is a huge problem in the show, no real getting around it.
It is possible to be critical of something and still enjoy its entertainment value.
I've always gotten the impression that the director and a few of the actors (like NPH and Michael Ironside) "got it". They were in on the joke and the commentary and all that. The other actors were completely and blissfully unaware of anything other than the fact that they needed to act their little hearts out because this was their break. And they're all so terrible. I enjoy Starship Troopers just because of the sheer absurdity.
Also I will never, ever understand people who disdain Whedon dialogue for being "too clever."
It's ok not to like it, it's very distinct and stylised. I don't like Quentin Tarantino's dialogue, it makes my teeth itch. I wouldn't call it bad, it's unique and full of character. It's just not for me. Saying writing is "bad" is like calling a setting "generic". It doesn't really mean anything other than "it's not the thing I like".
+4
UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
a common complaint is "real people don't talk like that"
it gets applied to Brian Michael Bendis' comics dialogue a lot too
well, no shit. Real people don't speak very well at all. I read a thing on how to write dialogue once and it suggested reading the Watergate transcripts to get an idea of how "real people" talk, and why that isn't necessarily something to aspire to. "real" conversations are filled with "um"s, and "you know"s and is generally pretty messy.
A better complaint about both Whedon and Bendis is that they're not always good at giving their characters unique voices - everyone tends to sound the same, and Whedon relies a lot on the talent of the actors working for him to make distinctiveness where the dialogue provides little.
a common complaint is "real people don't talk like that"
it gets applied to Brian Michael Bendis' comics dialogue a lot too
well, no shit. Real people don't speak very well at all. I read a thing on how to write dialogue once and it suggested reading the Watergate transcripts to get an idea of how "real people" talk, and why that isn't necessarily something to aspire to. "real" conversations are filled with "um"s, and "you know"s and is generally pretty messy.
A better complaint about both Whedon and Bendis is that they're not always good at giving their characters unique voices - everyone tends to sound the same, and Whedon relies a lot on the talent of the actors working for him to make distinctiveness where the dialogue provides little.
That's definitely a complaint I have about both. Whedon's stuff typically turns out a little more diverse because of the actors, as you pointed out.
It's all to personal taste. Of the four people I most commonly hear that criticism leveraged against (Terantino, Diablo Cody, Whedon and Bendis) I love two and can't stand two
The ratio of people on this forum talking about Firefly to people complaining about people who talk about firefly is about 1:9. People will bitch about it for hours but I can't remember the last time I saw someone say "hey guys out of gas was a fun episode".
I don't like Firefly that much (I enjoyed it, it was neat) but I reject out of hand the idea that "browncoats" (ugh) are more strident and annoying than Firefly haters because the former don't really stray out of their own specialist websites and the latter are everywhere and want to let you know all the time that they don't like that show and wish people would stop going on about it.
You make it seem like the criticism of Firefly in this thread was disproportionate to the rest of the discussion and came out of nowhere, but it was in response to a page full of gushing praise for the show, including one person literally saying that Firefly was perfect in almost every way.
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
The way writing realistic dialogue was taught to me was all about learning what real dialogue was, ignoring that, and coming to terms with the fact that your dialogue will always sound fake to you. It needs to sound realistic in context and realistic to the wholly artificial character, nothing more.
Posts
Is there a name for this? There has to be a psychology term for it at this point
see
I'm gonna go ahead and say that in a Space Opera, the evil badguys not having much substance to them is not exactly a thing exclusive to Firefly
Also if you're going to let a show that is about character relationships get spoiled by a non-follow-through on basically what is setting and background information... okay, that's your prerogative I guess
Pretty much if you're going to imply I shouldn't be a little miffed about a real life culture not actually having a personal presence in a show about "character relations" that are so largely influenced and informed by the setting and background information then sure, keep on keeping on or whatever.
I have genuinely never heard Joss Whedon described as sexist
The poorly written part sure
There was a blog post doing the rounds a few years ago which accused him of being a misogynist, it was psychotic.
Like
I can't think of a thing he's written for that didn't have a strong leading lady
His X-Men run is what made me actually start liking Kitty Pride
Edit: To be clear I'm not dismissing the claim and would like to hear why Anti thinks that, it just confused me
I don't like Firefly that much (I enjoyed it, it was neat) but I reject out of hand the idea that "browncoats" (ugh) are more strident and annoying than Firefly haters because the former don't really stray out of their own specialist websites and the latter are everywhere and want to let you know all the time that they don't like that show and wish people would stop going on about it.
The only time I've seen that attitude is when people are talking about firefly, and then have criticisms or different opinions about it
Like almost every other piece of popular fiction
And I mean you're of course going to get more of the latter because they're not part of a club or specialist group, they're just people who came across the show and didn't like it and are of course going to chime in.
old superhero serial posters are weird
Ok
I am going to ask this as delicately as possible
How is treating a person who chooses to make money with their sexuality like an equal more sexist than making it illegal and ostracizing them from society
Also I'm fairly certain Male Companions are mentioned in the series but I could be wrong
It's like the cinnamon challenge except with ground up wizard.
I think Rifftrax is doing that one as we speak. There's even a clip on their site.
Yes there are male companions.
Is that in the TV show? The only ones I remember were at the Heart of Gold, which was unlicensed.
Steam ID - VeldrinD | SS Post | Wishlist
There are four Starship Troopers movies
There was a second one?
Apparently so
Steam ID - VeldrinD | SS Post | Wishlist
Starship Troopers was one, and the D&D movie was the other.
Weirdly, while the direct-to-dvd sequel for the D&D movie is not good, it is far more representative of a D&D game and I kind of enjoy it for that
I quite liked it for what it was, a schlocky sci-fi show featuring actors I love, some good character beats, and some problematic elements that are usually more nuanced than its critics give the show credit for. Companions showed prostitution in a "noble" light (even though the main character is a constant critic of the institution as inherently demeaning) by specifically and explicitly showing how it would need to be divorced from the sex trade as we know it.
Asian invisibility is a huge problem in the show, no real getting around it.
It is possible to be critical of something and still enjoy its entertainment value.
GoFund The Portland Trans Pride March, or Show It To People, or Else!
RE: Starship Troopers
I've always gotten the impression that the director and a few of the actors (like NPH and Michael Ironside) "got it". They were in on the joke and the commentary and all that. The other actors were completely and blissfully unaware of anything other than the fact that they needed to act their little hearts out because this was their break. And they're all so terrible. I enjoy Starship Troopers just because of the sheer absurdity.
the cartoon basically was
i mean it wasn't good, but "regular people involved in escapism actually interact with that escapism" happened.
GoFund The Portland Trans Pride March, or Show It To People, or Else!
It's ok not to like it, it's very distinct and stylised. I don't like Quentin Tarantino's dialogue, it makes my teeth itch. I wouldn't call it bad, it's unique and full of character. It's just not for me. Saying writing is "bad" is like calling a setting "generic". It doesn't really mean anything other than "it's not the thing I like".
it gets applied to Brian Michael Bendis' comics dialogue a lot too
well, no shit. Real people don't speak very well at all. I read a thing on how to write dialogue once and it suggested reading the Watergate transcripts to get an idea of how "real people" talk, and why that isn't necessarily something to aspire to. "real" conversations are filled with "um"s, and "you know"s and is generally pretty messy.
A better complaint about both Whedon and Bendis is that they're not always good at giving their characters unique voices - everyone tends to sound the same, and Whedon relies a lot on the talent of the actors working for him to make distinctiveness where the dialogue provides little.
That's definitely a complaint I have about both. Whedon's stuff typically turns out a little more diverse because of the actors, as you pointed out.
It's all to personal taste. Of the four people I most commonly hear that criticism leveraged against (Terantino, Diablo Cody, Whedon and Bendis) I love two and can't stand two
"Well fuck yeah I slugged him one, hold on a second this is the part where Michael Ironside's legs melt"
You make it seem like the criticism of Firefly in this thread was disproportionate to the rest of the discussion and came out of nowhere, but it was in response to a page full of gushing praise for the show, including one person literally saying that Firefly was perfect in almost every way.
I like it in Kevin Smith movies when people talk in paragraphs, liked Deadwood, am a fan of Spartacus...