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Sexism in Gaming IV Forumers on Patrol
Regina Fong
Allons-y, AlonsoRegistered User regular
Allons-y, AlonsoRegistered User regular
Sexism in Video Games IV
In the previous sexism in gaming thread we began with a review of Anita Sarkeesian's video series "Tropes vrs. Women" as well as Dragon's Crown and Saints Row IV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjImnqH_KwM
If you have not watched the videos, you should probably do so.
They are informative and entertaining, even if the argumentation isn't perfectly academic. If you decline to watch them, the world thanks you for not commenting on them.
Hopefully we can dispense with Dragon's Crown (we've discussed it at length) and Saints Row IV (The rectifier isn't exactly a sexism issue).
One of the issues discussed at length which is still being discussed at the end of the thread, is "What Women Want [in video games]".
Bonus points for you if you happen to be a woman gamer and have an opinion you'd like to share on this issue.
Other issues highlighted include a general dearth of female protagonists (this is generally agreed upon by all)
As well as problematic sexualization of female characters who do exist in games (it is not generally agreed upon how problematic this is)
What this is: A discussion of sexism in video games.
What this is not: A general sexism thread. Sometimes it's hard not to tangent or draw in examples from other media. This is mostly forgiven but try your best.
What this is absolutely not: A general feminism thread. This thread is not that. Do not bring those arguments in here they are not topical or wanted.
In the previous sexism in gaming thread we began with a review of Anita Sarkeesian's video series "Tropes vrs. Women" as well as Dragon's Crown and Saints Row IV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Qhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjImnqH_KwMIf you have not watched the videos, you should probably do so.
They are informative and entertaining, even if the argumentation isn't perfectly academic. If you decline to watch them, the world thanks you for not commenting on them.
Hopefully we can dispense with Dragon's Crown (we've discussed it at length) and Saints Row IV (The rectifier isn't exactly a sexism issue).
One of the issues discussed at length which is still being discussed at the end of the thread, is "What Women Want [in video games]".
Bonus points for you if you happen to be a woman gamer and have an opinion you'd like to share on this issue.
Other issues highlighted include a general dearth of female protagonists (this is generally agreed upon by all)
As well as problematic sexualization of female characters who do exist in games (it is not generally agreed upon how problematic this is)
What this is: A discussion of sexism in video games.
What this is not: A general sexism thread. Sometimes it's hard not to tangent or draw in examples from other media. This is mostly forgiven but try your best.
What this is absolutely not: A general feminism thread. This thread is not that. Do not bring those arguments in here they are not topical or wanted.
Regina Fong on
+2
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
They are targeted at girls, yes? A lot of the complaints are about what adult female gamers see lacking in games targeted at adults.
Aren't the majority of games targeted at a young audience? I wasn't aware that the objection was specifically towards games targeted specifically at adults.
HER interactive has expressed interest in branching out and making other games that appeal to women of various perspectives. Interestingly enough the first game they produced was a dating sim where you are a woman (this was in 1995). Their games are pretty popular among young women. For the most part they've kept their focus on the ND series because it's iconic and it's proven that it can sell.
Edit: According to a HER interactive representative thirty percent of their audience are adult women.
http://www.adventuregamers.com/articles/view/17834/page2
now i'm all pissy.
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
I think Nancy Drew is a brand/franchise that's been around enough for those games to be targeted more towards women who remember the books from childhood than young girls. I could be wrong, but at the very least from looking at Steam there sure are a lot of Nancy Drew games.
I would also request that the previous Sexism In Gaming threads be retroactively titled "Sexism In Gaming I: The Adventure Begins", "Sexism In Gaming: 2 Fast 2 Feminist" and "Sexism In Gaming III: The Legend Of Rude Sorceress Titties".
there were a lot of mean things said about twilight that are going to be hard to take back
can't really unring that bell, guys
Yeah I wish we'd switched to the new thread like an hour earlier. Oh well.
It's actually really cool to know that the Nancy Drew series is both something being played by young people and a popular nostalgia trip for adult fans of the novels.
Personally I couldn't get into either Hardy Boys or Nancy Drew as a kid. Mystery is just not my thang.
I'm not sure that has anything to do with feminism, but take from it what you will.
cause we talk about video games featuring good role models and etc, teaching people how to be better human beings, but for adults who derive sick pleasure from being crap to each other after decades of having to play nice in real life
do women want cathartic (note: in medicine, catharsis means a huge dump) experiences as adults or something else, and if the former, how can it be provided
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It's a positive start for getting more female gamers playing. Mystery solving leaves an amazing amount of leeway for the IP, as well. They can go in so many directions with that.
I'm a pretty big fan. Tbh, it's completely understandable that some people don't like it. The company has struggled to appeal to different segments of it's audience, the games range from an amazing experience to an amazing headache.
On another note, I'm not really trying to say that these games are the way of the future or anything. I'm just saying, there are some games out there that try to appeal to the female market, I feel like those games get mostly ignored in these conversations.
Taking a somewhat larger perspective, the point-and-click adventure genre, in general, seems to appeal to roughly as many women as men.
I mean, it's become a niche genre in general, but one that isn't as male-oriented as, say, 2D fighting games.
I am wondering what the gender breakdown for the folks who bought The Walking Dead (or the other Telltale games) is.
Well, obviously someone knows, or the developers would have gone to bankruptcy already.
But it's less about people ignoring them, and more people genuinely not knowing they exist.
Yes and yes and any way you please.
I mean in general, I'd just say new ideas and new themes are probably a solid way of "appealing to women", simply because the shit that's been done to death has also been something that for 2-3 decades women were told not to interfere with so they're more likely to be noticed. I'm guess SF/Fantasy/Modern have brought in most of the people they're going to bring in.
But "do women want cathartic experiences as adults" is just a thing someone who is crazy asks. Yes, women want that. Women also don't want that and want that sometimes and don't know what you mean by cathartic and knew what cathartic meant and that joke wasn't funny and it was funny because dump means poop.
The industry doesn't need to gird its loins for the difficult task of figuring out what women like, it needs to stop shouting loudly at them to die.
It's bought in the most men who like that. Women like science fiction and fantasy, as well, but I'd be hesitant to say the industry has done the most it can to capture that demographic.
This is why it's important for the industry to prioritize researching what women gamers want for their games. Throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks isn't a winning strategy.
It can do both. The more the industry understands what women want the easier it will be make games for them.
The lack of demographic data for hardcore games is one thing that makes these discussions really difficult, on all levels. For example, if I want to go to my boss and pitch a game concept that I think will appeal to women, how can I effectively show that it will appeal to women? There's pretty good data on casual games appealing to the female market, but no real way to get a breakdown on whether women play a particular genre of hardcore game, or what the percentage breakdowns are like. Without demographic data, it's pretty much impossible not to fall back on stereotypes and anecdotes. "There were totally some women in my WoW guild, I bet there's a market for a more female-oriented MMO" isn't a particularly convincing financial argument on its own.
Steam is actually a big part of this, since it's very stingy on its demographic data, even with developers. Valve doesn't really publish any kind of demographic data that I know of, and since steam accounts are basically a black box it becomes super hard for developers to get that info without asking for it directly. One of my only issues with Steam as a platform is that its become very difficult to get reliable data on the state of PC gaming. I think this really limits the ability of developers to make games aimed at women - how can you effectively target a niche market when you can't get reliable data on the extent to which that market exists, or what kinds of games they like?
Wait, what? Which one is that one?
How are companies able to properly research male gamers with those restrictions? If they're using other strategies for that information they need to target that at the female gamers.
Nancy Drew's an okay start for kids, I guess. Never even read the book series, myself, though. And I figure it's got more breadth than depth, you'd want something more substantial to appeal to your older female gamers. (These teenage detectives are generally aimed at tweens or younger.)
Inertia, these games have sold in the past, so we will make more of them in the future.
They cater to existing demographics, without trying to seriously enlarge the customer base.
Like, men and women seem to be able to enjoy good media in general. Men can get behind great female characters, women can get behind great male characters, both can do both. Good media is just good media.
What we seem to be talking about is what will appeal to the LCD. And I'm not certain that's something go be concerned with, in general. Like, what do men want? Apparently, we want shooter games, puzzel games, sports games, mmos, RPGs, and we want them in every setting from fantasy to space to comics to real life. I'd wager women want most of the same things, just... done better? I can't think there's some huge genre were just flat out lacking. is there a gaming equiv to romcoms?
Eh, I think it's a false assumption that an individual game is what attracts a new market. If someone isn't already buying triple-A games, they also aren't looking at games journalism sites, or wandering into Gamestop looking at random titles. The whole mechanism we have for distributing that kind of information about games (ie: games journalism) really only applies to people who are already buyers. Even if your game has some cool new theme that women would like, how are women supposed to find out about it if they aren't already gamers? People who aren't gamers also aren't visiting gaming blogs or wandering into Gamestop or whatever.
Market expansions in games have tended to come from new platforms rather than new titles. So platforms like the iPhone and the Wii oversaw a big boost to the female market, while individual games don't seem to have the same effect.
They aren't, really. They just make what games have sold well in the past, and assume their audience based largely on the state of the platform. So if it's an Xbox game they assume most of the people looking at it will be male, while if it's an iPhone game it's assumed to be more of a mixed audience.
The Captive Curse. Nancy Drew goes to investigate monster sightings in a German castle. Ned doesn't find out until your already in Germany that because of this investigation the romantic getaway that he is planning is not going to happen.
That sounds awesome.
What I'm saying is the IP is strong enough that they should be able to expand beyond that in numerous directions, like making it more serious, more violence based or comedic to entice older audiences. Teenage detectives can be targeted at older age groups than tweens, re: Veronica Mars and Death Note. They can also age her up and put her in college or something, and alter the setting occasionally from early the 1930's to the modern day.
They have done all of those things with the book series, I think it's only a matter of time before they do it with the video game series.
Edit: Funny you should mention it, Secret of the Old clock is set specifically in the 1930's. The game exposes you to some interesting information about how things were different back then.
The industry practices between video-games and comic books mirror each other the more I hear about it. :?
Agreed.
What's LCD?
Agreed. Only I'd consider it relevant in order for the industry to put the things female gamers want in their games to make better games. Their tastes might have greater diversity than male gamers, too.
The casual gaming market?
How do you feel about the recent Sherlock Holmes adventure games?
Sherlock Holmes vs. Jack the Ripper
Sherlock Holmes Nemesis
Sherlock Holmes vs. Cthulhu
etc.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
They were decent.
I was curious to know if you rejected the Agatha Christie and Nancy Drew adventure games but dabbled with the Holmes games released around the same time.
A licensing rate that can be found without having to go through several business channels?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.