The characters and the writing in Hong Kong were great, but the problem I had with it was that they would just throw too much at you at once. Like, I'd finish up a mission and go check in on the doctor. And I'd be genuinely impressed with how well they captured the experiences of an expat trying to integrate themselves into a new community. I loved going in to listen to his stories. But then I'd realize I'd been playing for 20 minutes and I hadn't done anything to progress my character or his goals. And I had another 15 characters to check in with before starting the next mission.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
The characters and the writing in Hong Kong were great, but the problem I had with it was that they would just throw too much at you at once. Like, I'd finish up a mission and go check in on the doctor. And I'd be genuinely impressed with how well they captured the experiences of an expat trying to integrate themselves into a new community. I loved going in to listen to his stories. But then I'd realize I'd been playing for 20 minutes and I hadn't done anything to progress my character or his goals. And I had another 15 characters to check in with before starting the next mission.
Different strokes. I mostly saw the runs as these diversions I had to get out of the way to get to the next set of dialogue options.
Also was really disappointed the Go players ran out of stuff to say so quickly
The one thing I really wanted after playing Hong Kong, was a custom campaign where Gobbet acts as a guide for you around hong kong looking for some good food and sporadically dealing with other people who had gone on the same trip who had an axe to grind with her regarding her eclectic tastes.
anyone else wondering what they're going to do for the next campaign?
I'm really hoping for somewhere in south america
Not sure they're working on a 4th at this point, but it would stand to reason it would be either south america or africa given how they seem to be hopscotching across the continents.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Yeah, pretty sure they've said they are finished with Shadowrun and switching their resources to focus on the Battletech game. I imagine they'll probably come back to Shadowrun at some time, but it seems like it could be a few years before that happens.
I found the characters in Shadowrun: HK more compelling and likeable than the characters in Dragonfall, with the exception of the fixer,
Who I happily murdered in HK, after hoping all game they would let me do so. Whereas Amstel was adorable and I was heartbroken to see him pass.
I haven't played the extended edition/director's cut of either game, which is a shame since i hear the Dragonfall crew gets a ton more dialog and missions in that cut. I'll probably play the HK director's cut some time soon, but not sure when.
Duncan is kind of annoying, but that makes sense, cause he's your brother, and you are working out how to rebuild your trust in each other and your relationship. The crew needs a straight man (er, in the humor sense, that is :P ) and he manages to fill that role while also having moments of individual charm and emotion that aren't just people mocking him for being a cop. If he weren't your brother, he would probably not pass the likeability barrier, but giving the player that personal connection to him really makes his character work.
Similarly, Is0bel can be on the verge of being unlikeable because she is so disinclined to talking, and does not really give you the catharsis you might imagine would result from dealing with her issues--but making her a tiny female dwarf and giving her moments of enthusiasm and vulnerability at the con really humanizes her. Also seeing the affection and trust between her and Gobbet evokes affection from the player.
Gobbet almost feels like a standard character--this messy young woman who is super enthused and likes to eat a lot. And again, I think they write her very well and give her a very specific and detailed backstory (which other people do not get in nearly that detail) in order to really flesh her out as a person and give you the chance to talk to her.
Racter is obviously the best. His writing is extremely well-paced with numerous fun reveals. Not a character I've seen anywhere else but one that elicited strong identification. Absolutely someone you'd want to hang out with and talk techie shit with in person, or maybe go out drinking and ramble about transhumanism. I am a huge fan of the concept of ex-corp shadowrunners, and seldom see it done.
Yeah, pretty sure they've said they are finished with Shadowrun and switching their resources to focus on the Battletech game. I imagine they'll probably come back to Shadowrun at some time, but it seems like it could be a few years before that happens.
Honestly, I don't have a problem with this; putting aside the fact that the BT game looks awesome, it will give the team time to belt out a really solid story.
Ah, also I am surprised to see complaints about the matrix minigame. I thought they did well at evoking the feeling that we associate with cinematic hacking--doing a number/memory task under time pressure, then feeling smart and techie when we succeed.
The stealth parts were not amazingly fun, but not the worst.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I think they've said that they don't feel like they can really push the SRR engine much further, so any future game will be its own thing and would be after Battletech.
My guess is that a hypothetical Shadowrun Returns 2 would go back to Seattle for the first installment and then branch out
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38thDoelets never be stupid againwait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered Userregular
They don't need to push the engine, just write more stories with it.
Ah, also I am surprised to see complaints about the matrix minigame. I thought they did well at evoking the feeling that we associate with cinematic hacking--doing a number/memory task under time pressure, then feeling smart and techie when we succeed.
The stealth parts were not amazingly fun, but not the worst.
Iunno, maybe it's just because I'm a compsci guy that a simple memory task amounting to breaking into hugely important databases just completely shatters my immersion. It also didn't help that 1. it was so badly explained and 2. it was trivially easy once you figure out what you have to do, so every barrier was just "well time to waste like 30-40 seconds that might as well have just been a direct access point for all the effort I'll need to put in."
It's also the issue of minigames like that breaking game flow, which isn't as bad in this because it's breaking an already bad game flow (the stealth bits), but still.
Ah, also I am surprised to see complaints about the matrix minigame. I thought they did well at evoking the feeling that we associate with cinematic hacking--doing a number/memory task under time pressure, then feeling smart and techie when we succeed.
The stealth parts were not amazingly fun, but not the worst.
Iunno, maybe it's just because I'm a compsci guy that a simple memory task amounting to breaking into hugely important databases just completely shatters my immersion. It also didn't help that 1. it was so badly explained and 2. it was trivially easy once you figure out what you have to do, so every barrier was just "well time to waste like 30-40 seconds that might as well have just been a direct access point for all the effort I'll need to put in."
It's also the issue of minigames like that breaking game flow, which isn't as bad in this because it's breaking an already bad game flow (the stealth bits), but still.
Yes, well I did specify 'cinematic' hacking.
I liked having a matrix activity that wasn't just combat, partially because matrix combat never feels particularly tactical or challenging in these games, but partially because It feels important to establish that what is happening in the matrix is a qualitatively different task than what is happening in meat space.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Ah, also I am surprised to see complaints about the matrix minigame. I thought they did well at evoking the feeling that we associate with cinematic hacking--doing a number/memory task under time pressure, then feeling smart and techie when we succeed.
The stealth parts were not amazingly fun, but not the worst.
Iunno, maybe it's just because I'm a compsci guy that a simple memory task amounting to breaking into hugely important databases just completely shatters my immersion. It also didn't help that 1. it was so badly explained and 2. it was trivially easy once you figure out what you have to do, so every barrier was just "well time to waste like 30-40 seconds that might as well have just been a direct access point for all the effort I'll need to put in."
It's also the issue of minigames like that breaking game flow, which isn't as bad in this because it's breaking an already bad game flow (the stealth bits), but still.
Yes, well I did specify 'cinematic' hacking.
I liked having a matrix activity that wasn't just combat, partially because matrix combat never feels particularly tactical or challenging in these games, but partially because It feels important to establish that what is happening in the matrix is a qualitatively different task than what is happening in meat space.
Aye, but maybe there's a lot of people out there who aren't interested in 'cinematic' hacking :P (referring to how you were surprised at the backlash, at least--the movies make it out much easier than it is which makes it less interesting, and that carries over into games)
I agree on having something else in the Matrix other than combat! I don't even really like Matrix combat to begin with. But it's a hard thing to represent and get the "feel" of right, so they had to try some things, and I can say they still need to try more things because the current version of it feels pretty lame.
Ah, also I am surprised to see complaints about the matrix minigame. I thought they did well at evoking the feeling that we associate with cinematic hacking--doing a number/memory task under time pressure, then feeling smart and techie when we succeed.
The stealth parts were not amazingly fun, but not the worst.
Iunno, maybe it's just because I'm a compsci guy that a simple memory task amounting to breaking into hugely important databases just completely shatters my immersion. It also didn't help that 1. it was so badly explained and 2. it was trivially easy once you figure out what you have to do, so every barrier was just "well time to waste like 30-40 seconds that might as well have just been a direct access point for all the effort I'll need to put in."
It's also the issue of minigames like that breaking game flow, which isn't as bad in this because it's breaking an already bad game flow (the stealth bits), but still.
Yes, well I did specify 'cinematic' hacking.
I liked having a matrix activity that wasn't just combat, partially because matrix combat never feels particularly tactical or challenging in these games, but partially because It feels important to establish that what is happening in the matrix is a qualitatively different task than what is happening in meat space.
Aye, but maybe there's a lot of people out there who aren't interested in 'cinematic' hacking :P (referring to how you were surprised at the backlash, at least--the movies make it out much easier than it is which makes it less interesting, and that carries over into games)
I agree on having something else in the Matrix other than combat! I don't even really like Matrix combat to begin with. But it's a hard thing to represent and get the "feel" of right, so they had to try some things, and I can say they still need to try more things because the current version of it feels pretty lame.
Yeah, definitely. But I'm at least not interested in having something that's more like real hacking (like programming-themed games)--I code for a living; I don't want to write scripts in my free time!
I guess instead it captures the feel of a PnP shadowrun game where no one is quite sure how much time to actually devote to matrix stuff and ends up with a bunch of solutions that are dissatisfying to everyone.
Hmmm...maybe if there were a much deeper minigame, and no combat? Or like, completely different, somehow puzzle-based combat that scaled off the stats of your deck...but I don't really have a good concept of what that would be.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
You have to create a path through the matrix, in the form of a block-sliding puzzle!
Nothing in this world, not lonliness, not my eventual death, not Donald Trump, none of that fills me with as much existential dread as the Noodle Extruder.
Maybe its just a reflection of my personality but I liked the HK companions more. The dragonfall characters were either too chummy and that would throw me off . Im the leader now? I don't even fucking know you people why are we friends now? As far as Eigar goes having served in the military and know plenty of her types that try to take charge of every aspect of everything on duty or off , with or without rank ... well suffice to say I was not a fan.
Maybe its just a reflection of my personality but I liked the HK companions more. The dragonfall characters were either too chummy and that would throw me off . Im the leader now? I don't even fucking know you people why are we friends now? As far as Eigar goes having served in the military and know plenty of her types that try to take charge of every aspect of everything on duty or off , with or without rank ... well suffice to say I was not a fan.
This is pretty close to my sentiment. I liked the Dragonfall crew, but Hong Kong's group was more human and believable to me. I liked that it was messy and not everybody was BFFs. I liked that Aunty Cheng didn't give much of a shit about my well being.
Dragonfall, while still great, was too 'neat' is how I'd put it.
They don't need to push the engine, just write more stories with it.
Exactly, now that they've done the hard work of getting the engine polished, why not crank out another 3 games? Heck, if you strung together a bunch of old FASA adventure books into a campaign people would devour it.
Maybe its just a reflection of my personality but I liked the HK companions more. The dragonfall characters were either too chummy and that would throw me off . Im the leader now? I don't even fucking know you people why are we friends now? As far as Eigar goes having served in the military and know plenty of her types that try to take charge of every aspect of everything on duty or off , with or without rank ... well suffice to say I was not a fan.
This is pretty close to my sentiment. I liked the Dragonfall crew, but Hong Kong's group was more human and believable to me. I liked that it was messy and not everybody was BFFs. I liked that Aunty Cheng didn't give much of a shit about my well being.
Dragonfall, while still great, was too 'neat' is how I'd put it.
I just never got attatched to the Hong Kong group the way I did the Dragonfall people. I almost seemed to me like I was bothering people when I went to talk to the crew after a mission, which I rarely felt in Dragonfall.
I actually haven't even finished HK, which is a real shame. I got ten hours into it, and I'm not even sure why I stopped, just... I guess the overall story didn't grab me enough.
Maybe its just a reflection of my personality but I liked the HK companions more. The dragonfall characters were either too chummy and that would throw me off . Im the leader now? I don't even fucking know you people why are we friends now? As far as Eigar goes having served in the military and know plenty of her types that try to take charge of every aspect of everything on duty or off , with or without rank ... well suffice to say I was not a fan.
This is pretty close to my sentiment. I liked the Dragonfall crew, but Hong Kong's group was more human and believable to me. I liked that it was messy and not everybody was BFFs. I liked that Aunty Cheng didn't give much of a shit about my well being.
Dragonfall, while still great, was too 'neat' is how I'd put it.
I just never got attatched to the Hong Kong group the way I did the Dragonfall people. I almost seemed to me like I was bothering people when I went to talk to the crew after a mission, which I rarely felt in Dragonfall.
I actually haven't even finished HK, which is a real shame. I got ten hours into it, and I'm not even sure why I stopped, just... I guess the overall story didn't grab me enough.
That's the great thing. You ARE bothering them when you talked to them after a mission, a reasonable percentage of the time.
Because their lives don't revolve around you, the great and holy protagonist. I love that.
This is probably best embodied by the bonus campaign for Hong Kong, the epilogue. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Not everybody gets to go home happy, period, and yes there ARE going to be hard feelings to some degree.
Maybe its just a reflection of my personality but I liked the HK companions more. The dragonfall characters were either too chummy and that would throw me off . Im the leader now? I don't even fucking know you people why are we friends now? As far as Eigar goes having served in the military and know plenty of her types that try to take charge of every aspect of everything on duty or off , with or without rank ... well suffice to say I was not a fan.
This is pretty close to my sentiment. I liked the Dragonfall crew, but Hong Kong's group was more human and believable to me. I liked that it was messy and not everybody was BFFs. I liked that Aunty Cheng didn't give much of a shit about my well being.
Dragonfall, while still great, was too 'neat' is how I'd put it.
I just never got attatched to the Hong Kong group the way I did the Dragonfall people. I almost seemed to me like I was bothering people when I went to talk to the crew after a mission, which I rarely felt in Dragonfall.
I actually haven't even finished HK, which is a real shame. I got ten hours into it, and I'm not even sure why I stopped, just... I guess the overall story didn't grab me enough.
Yes. I loved that every NPC, when you're done talking, is like 'ok, yeah I am going to just do whatever by myself for a while. Mind pissing off for a bit?' Makes them feel more like real people and I thought it really increased the emotional payoff when you do manage to become closer to them. They still kinda tell you to piss off but it's in a much friendlier way. And yeah, I don't know--it makes sense that a bunch of shadowrunners would be like that? I mean the friendlier/more open relationship in Dragonfall kinda makes sense too because you inherited a bunch of trust/feels from Monika. But in HK you're just some rando and you become friends (/repair sibling relationship) over time.
I found most of the missions quite interesting, and just wanted to do more of them and explore the world. The overall plot provided some motivation to keep going but wasn't really the main thing for me; I was more excited to go home and see what developed in the family drama of the club owners and to talk to all my people than I was to figure out what was going on with my dad.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited October 2016
I think Hong Kong's core plot isn't as compelling as Dragonfall's, but it's solid across the board. Nothing is really incredible, but there are moments of absolute brilliance, namely Racter and... well, stuff like this.
While the sheer number of people to keep up with made it feel like a chore at times, I thought the hub NPCs and vendors in HK were the best yet. Ambrose was definitely a highlight, especially the way he starts out seeming like an open book but turns out to be something much more enigmatic and disturbing. Most writers would have taken the easy way out did it the other way around.
The Ka Feis were great, since they were an intact family (a real rarity, in this setting) that clearly had a complex, fraught, and realistically depicted love for one another. I was playing my character like I did in Dragonfall, trying to help everyone in the neighborhood that I could, but I got the feeling I could have really driven them apart in a bad way if I'd given them the wrong advice; their deteriorating relationships showed the toxic influence of the Walled City in a way all the foreboding flavor text in the world didn't and couldn't have.
I started off very annoyed at Reliable Matthew and his shtick, but of course that's the point. His arc has some heartbreaking and very human pathos in it that you don't see much in video games, all the more so since they wisely didn't make it to where you could resolve it through your messianic Protagonist Powers (much like, as several have mentioned, Is0bel).
I didn't have a lot of experience with Shadowrun prior to DMS (except for playing the SNES game back in the day), but one of the things that impressed me the most about the HBS games was how they took a setting and concept that was really very over-the-top and goofy, and made it feel very realistic and relatable simply through empathy and strong character-based writing. We could use a lot more of that in the industry these days, IMO.
Duffel on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Maybe its just a reflection of my personality but I liked the HK companions more. The dragonfall characters were either too chummy and that would throw me off . Im the leader now? I don't even fucking know you people why are we friends now? As far as Eigar goes having served in the military and know plenty of her types that try to take charge of every aspect of everything on duty or off , with or without rank ... well suffice to say I was not a fan.
This is pretty close to my sentiment. I liked the Dragonfall crew, but Hong Kong's group was more human and believable to me. I liked that it was messy and not everybody was BFFs. I liked that Aunty Cheng didn't give much of a shit about my well being.
Dragonfall, while still great, was too 'neat' is how I'd put it.
I just never got attatched to the Hong Kong group the way I did the Dragonfall people. I almost seemed to me like I was bothering people when I went to talk to the crew after a mission, which I rarely felt in Dragonfall.
I actually haven't even finished HK, which is a real shame. I got ten hours into it, and I'm not even sure why I stopped, just... I guess the overall story didn't grab me enough.
That's the great thing. You ARE bothering them when you talked to them after a mission, a reasonable percentage of the time.
Because their lives don't revolve around you, the great and holy protagonist. I love that.
This is probably best embodied by the bonus campaign for Hong Kong, the epilogue. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Not everybody gets to go home happy, period, and yes there ARE going to be hard feelings to some degree.
While I generally agree, this felt very heavy handed. If you choose the team over Duncan, you don't even have the option to say "what does restoring our SINs even do? I just got out of prison and you're an ex-cop who's definitely wanted for a bunch of crimes by now." That frustrated me. By that point you should at least be allowed to plead your case.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Come on guys, I just said I started the epilogue, can't we get some spoiler tags? :P
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Ah I thought you had finished I'M DUMB I'M SORRY
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Eh, nbd, I'm not really surprised. Duncan has a looooot of issues he needs to work out (high priority ones like "how do I talk to people with getting fucking shot for saying stupid shit"), so there being some ultimatum involving him makes sense.
I think Hong Kong's core plot isn't as compelling as Dragonfall's, but it's solid across the board. Nothing is really incredible, but there are moments of absolute brilliance, namely Racter and... well, stuff like this.
Also, some Racter gems.
I can't find the dialog archived or screenshotted easily anywhere, but my two favorite moments with Racter are:
1. where he talks about how he is sure that the reason he can exist at low essence is because he's a sociopath; when you call him on this being kinda unfounded/irrational, he says it is a belief that is necessary for him, the same way you probably have some dumb beliefs, ok?
I cannot fully articulate why, but it was a really touching moment.
2. After he's talked about his cyberware, and you see for the first time that he has claw-feet.
you: 'so uhhhhhh what's with the feet bro?'
Racter: 'they're based on harpy eagle talons'
you: 'cool?'
Racter: 'the harpy eagle preys on primates'
you: '...'
Racter:
I haven't even started the epilogue, despite the avatar, since I played through the game before it was released instead of sensibly waiting for it to come out.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I think Hong Kong's core plot isn't as compelling as Dragonfall's, but it's solid across the board. Nothing is really incredible, but there are moments of absolute brilliance, namely Racter and... well, stuff like this.
Also, some Racter gems.
I can't find the dialog archived or screenshotted easily anywhere, but my two favorite moments with Racter are:
1. where he talks about how he is sure that the reason he can exist at low essence is because he's a sociopath; when you call him on this being kinda unfounded/irrational, he says it is a belief that is necessary for him, the same way you probably have some dumb beliefs, ok?
I cannot fully articulate why, but it was a really touching moment.
2. After he's talked about his cyberware, and you see for the first time that he has claw-feet.
you: 'so uhhhhhh what's with the feet bro?'
Racter: 'they're based on harpy eagle talons'
you: 'cool?'
Racter: 'the harpy eagle preys on primates'
you: '...'
Racter:
Yeah, Racter was fascinating. I kept guessing where his schtick was going to go and was often pleasantly surprised. And I fucking love Gaichu; for all his serious backstory and issues with his condition, he's often irreverent to the point of being downright jolly.
I had a giggle when he complained that he could previously split a pea with a sword while blindfolded, but hasn't been able to since he actually became blind.
HBS really upped their writing chops on the character side, and I think both HK and Dragonfall represent valid and interesting contrasts to different runner teams. One's a team of professionals who have personal issues but operate as a well-oiled machine, and the other's a ramshackle collection of castoffs held together by shoestring and a lack of options. One has a fixer who's essentially part of the team, the other is indebted to a crime boss who views them chiefly as assets. There's a different feel to each campaign, and it's neat to see them side-by-side in the same universe.
The real complaints for each, in my view, come from the mission structure and overall plot. HK's missions were fantastic and tightly designed, but the overall story was just you killing time until the next plot thing happened. Dragonfall had several tedious missions, but was excellently plotted; the missions contributed to an immediate goal, and the PC had an active role in solving the underlying mystery. The good news is these two issues aren't linked, and it largely comes down to scenario design and writing.
I would be very interested to see what direction HBS takes the setting should they return - and I feel confident they will given its popularity. Nothing against letting it lie for a while though, especially with Battletech on the horizon. More than anything they've shown the capacity to listen to feedback and improve on a product post-launch, which are among the most valuable attributes for a studio to have over the long term. Put up a crowdfunding page and I'll be there with wallet in hand.
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
edited October 2016
How do y'all feel about the difficulty of the games? I played through them on normal because "hard" usually just means "bullshit and worse aim", but I was able to faceroll HK's combat a little too easily, will probably jack it up for the next run through.
The only time I actually factually died died was on my first go through of the lodge initiation mission, because fuck that mission. Though I never did do the rest of the lodge stuff, other than that one thing they asked you to do when raiding Aztech.
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Different strokes. I mostly saw the runs as these diversions I had to get out of the way to get to the next set of dialogue options.
Also was really disappointed the Go players ran out of stuff to say so quickly
I'm really hoping for somewhere in south america
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Not sure they're working on a 4th at this point, but it would stand to reason it would be either south america or africa given how they seem to be hopscotching across the continents.
I haven't played the extended edition/director's cut of either game, which is a shame since i hear the Dragonfall crew gets a ton more dialog and missions in that cut. I'll probably play the HK director's cut some time soon, but not sure when.
Duncan is kind of annoying, but that makes sense, cause he's your brother, and you are working out how to rebuild your trust in each other and your relationship. The crew needs a straight man (er, in the humor sense, that is :P ) and he manages to fill that role while also having moments of individual charm and emotion that aren't just people mocking him for being a cop. If he weren't your brother, he would probably not pass the likeability barrier, but giving the player that personal connection to him really makes his character work.
Similarly, Is0bel can be on the verge of being unlikeable because she is so disinclined to talking, and does not really give you the catharsis you might imagine would result from dealing with her issues--but making her a tiny female dwarf and giving her moments of enthusiasm and vulnerability at the con really humanizes her. Also seeing the affection and trust between her and Gobbet evokes affection from the player.
Gobbet almost feels like a standard character--this messy young woman who is super enthused and likes to eat a lot. And again, I think they write her very well and give her a very specific and detailed backstory (which other people do not get in nearly that detail) in order to really flesh her out as a person and give you the chance to talk to her.
Racter is obviously the best. His writing is extremely well-paced with numerous fun reveals. Not a character I've seen anywhere else but one that elicited strong identification. Absolutely someone you'd want to hang out with and talk techie shit with in person, or maybe go out drinking and ramble about transhumanism. I am a huge fan of the concept of ex-corp shadowrunners, and seldom see it done.
Honestly, I don't have a problem with this; putting aside the fact that the BT game looks awesome, it will give the team time to belt out a really solid story.
The stealth parts were not amazingly fun, but not the worst.
My guess is that a hypothetical Shadowrun Returns 2 would go back to Seattle for the first installment and then branch out
Getting
Iunno, maybe it's just because I'm a compsci guy that a simple memory task amounting to breaking into hugely important databases just completely shatters my immersion. It also didn't help that 1. it was so badly explained and 2. it was trivially easy once you figure out what you have to do, so every barrier was just "well time to waste like 30-40 seconds that might as well have just been a direct access point for all the effort I'll need to put in."
It's also the issue of minigames like that breaking game flow, which isn't as bad in this because it's breaking an already bad game flow (the stealth bits), but still.
Yes, well I did specify 'cinematic' hacking.
I liked having a matrix activity that wasn't just combat, partially because matrix combat never feels particularly tactical or challenging in these games, but partially because It feels important to establish that what is happening in the matrix is a qualitatively different task than what is happening in meat space.
Aye, but maybe there's a lot of people out there who aren't interested in 'cinematic' hacking :P (referring to how you were surprised at the backlash, at least--the movies make it out much easier than it is which makes it less interesting, and that carries over into games)
I agree on having something else in the Matrix other than combat! I don't even really like Matrix combat to begin with. But it's a hard thing to represent and get the "feel" of right, so they had to try some things, and I can say they still need to try more things because the current version of it feels pretty lame.
Yeah, definitely. But I'm at least not interested in having something that's more like real hacking (like programming-themed games)--I code for a living; I don't want to write scripts in my free time!
I guess instead it captures the feel of a PnP shadowrun game where no one is quite sure how much time to actually devote to matrix stuff and ends up with a bunch of solutions that are dissatisfying to everyone.
Hmmm...maybe if there were a much deeper minigame, and no combat? Or like, completely different, somehow puzzle-based combat that scaled off the stats of your deck...but I don't really have a good concept of what that would be.
"We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
This is pretty close to my sentiment. I liked the Dragonfall crew, but Hong Kong's group was more human and believable to me. I liked that it was messy and not everybody was BFFs. I liked that Aunty Cheng didn't give much of a shit about my well being.
Dragonfall, while still great, was too 'neat' is how I'd put it.
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She wanted revenge for the old guy, at least.
Well, beats a Tower of Hanoi minigame at least.
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Exactly, now that they've done the hard work of getting the engine polished, why not crank out another 3 games? Heck, if you strung together a bunch of old FASA adventure books into a campaign people would devour it.
I just never got attatched to the Hong Kong group the way I did the Dragonfall people. I almost seemed to me like I was bothering people when I went to talk to the crew after a mission, which I rarely felt in Dragonfall.
I actually haven't even finished HK, which is a real shame. I got ten hours into it, and I'm not even sure why I stopped, just... I guess the overall story didn't grab me enough.
That's the great thing. You ARE bothering them when you talked to them after a mission, a reasonable percentage of the time.
Because their lives don't revolve around you, the great and holy protagonist. I love that.
This is probably best embodied by the bonus campaign for Hong Kong, the epilogue. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Not everybody gets to go home happy, period, and yes there ARE going to be hard feelings to some degree.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
Yes. I loved that every NPC, when you're done talking, is like 'ok, yeah I am going to just do whatever by myself for a while. Mind pissing off for a bit?' Makes them feel more like real people and I thought it really increased the emotional payoff when you do manage to become closer to them. They still kinda tell you to piss off but it's in a much friendlier way. And yeah, I don't know--it makes sense that a bunch of shadowrunners would be like that? I mean the friendlier/more open relationship in Dragonfall kinda makes sense too because you inherited a bunch of trust/feels from Monika. But in HK you're just some rando and you become friends (/repair sibling relationship) over time.
I found most of the missions quite interesting, and just wanted to do more of them and explore the world. The overall plot provided some motivation to keep going but wasn't really the main thing for me; I was more excited to go home and see what developed in the family drama of the club owners and to talk to all my people than I was to figure out what was going on with my dad.
Also, some Racter gems.
The Ka Feis were great, since they were an intact family (a real rarity, in this setting) that clearly had a complex, fraught, and realistically depicted love for one another. I was playing my character like I did in Dragonfall, trying to help everyone in the neighborhood that I could, but I got the feeling I could have really driven them apart in a bad way if I'd given them the wrong advice; their deteriorating relationships showed the toxic influence of the Walled City in a way all the foreboding flavor text in the world didn't and couldn't have.
I started off very annoyed at Reliable Matthew and his shtick, but of course that's the point. His arc has some heartbreaking and very human pathos in it that you don't see much in video games, all the more so since they wisely didn't make it to where you could resolve it through your messianic Protagonist Powers (much like, as several have mentioned, Is0bel).
I didn't have a lot of experience with Shadowrun prior to DMS (except for playing the SNES game back in the day), but one of the things that impressed me the most about the HBS games was how they took a setting and concept that was really very over-the-top and goofy, and made it feel very realistic and relatable simply through empathy and strong character-based writing. We could use a lot more of that in the industry these days, IMO.
While I generally agree, this felt very heavy handed. If you choose the team over Duncan, you don't even have the option to say "what does restoring our SINs even do? I just got out of prison and you're an ex-cop who's definitely wanted for a bunch of crimes by now." That frustrated me. By that point you should at least be allowed to plead your case.
Eh, nbd, I'm not really surprised. Duncan has a looooot of issues he needs to work out (high priority ones like "how do I talk to people with getting fucking shot for saying stupid shit"), so there being some ultimatum involving him makes sense.
I can't find the dialog archived or screenshotted easily anywhere, but my two favorite moments with Racter are:
I cannot fully articulate why, but it was a really touching moment.
2. After he's talked about his cyberware, and you see for the first time that he has claw-feet.
you: 'so uhhhhhh what's with the feet bro?'
Racter: 'they're based on harpy eagle talons'
you: 'cool?'
Racter: 'the harpy eagle preys on primates'
you: '...'
Racter:
I haven't even started the epilogue, despite the avatar, since I played through the game before it was released instead of sensibly waiting for it to come out.
Yeah, Racter was fascinating. I kept guessing where his schtick was going to go and was often pleasantly surprised. And I fucking love Gaichu; for all his serious backstory and issues with his condition, he's often irreverent to the point of being downright jolly.
HBS really upped their writing chops on the character side, and I think both HK and Dragonfall represent valid and interesting contrasts to different runner teams. One's a team of professionals who have personal issues but operate as a well-oiled machine, and the other's a ramshackle collection of castoffs held together by shoestring and a lack of options. One has a fixer who's essentially part of the team, the other is indebted to a crime boss who views them chiefly as assets. There's a different feel to each campaign, and it's neat to see them side-by-side in the same universe.
The real complaints for each, in my view, come from the mission structure and overall plot. HK's missions were fantastic and tightly designed, but the overall story was just you killing time until the next plot thing happened. Dragonfall had several tedious missions, but was excellently plotted; the missions contributed to an immediate goal, and the PC had an active role in solving the underlying mystery. The good news is these two issues aren't linked, and it largely comes down to scenario design and writing.
I would be very interested to see what direction HBS takes the setting should they return - and I feel confident they will given its popularity. Nothing against letting it lie for a while though, especially with Battletech on the horizon. More than anything they've shown the capacity to listen to feedback and improve on a product post-launch, which are among the most valuable attributes for a studio to have over the long term. Put up a crowdfunding page and I'll be there with wallet in hand.
Now playing: Teardown and Baldur's Gate 3 (co-op)
Sunday Spotlight: Horror Tales: The Wine
The only time I actually factually died died was on my first go through of the lodge initiation mission, because fuck that mission. Though I never did do the rest of the lodge stuff, other than that one thing they asked you to do when raiding Aztech.