That through incompetent actions, the FBI/ATF contributed to a bad situation that led to the avoidable deaths of innocent children. There are things that, even given only the information they had at the time and not needing the benefit of hindsight, they could and should have done differently that could have or would have helped prevent that.
The goals of the FBI and ATF were fine. Serve a warrant on some dangerous nutcases/rescue some children from dangerous nutcases. I am saying the tactics they used are in hindsight (and many thought at the time) quite clearly the wrong ones, and that it is desirable that our law enforcement agencies prove to be much better at carrying out their jobs than the ATF/FBI were in that particular case.
I also argue that the Branch Davidians, besides making incompetent decisions that contributed to a bad situation that led to the deaths of innocent children are also directly (at least some of them) morally culpable for the deaths of those children because they directly killed them by shooting and/or fire. Several of the branch davidians are, in my opinion, unarguably guilty of murder - both of children and of ATF agents shot down while lawfully serving a valid warrant. I don't think any of the FBI/ATF are guilty of murder. As the Branch Davidians started shit in the first place, even the least guilty member of the cult is more responsible for the deaths of the kids than the most responsible member of the FBI/ATF. However everyone basically seems to agree with this part of my argument.
I also think the argument that the ATF/FBI, while making bad decisions, were not incompetent and we only think so with the unfair advantage of hindsight, is an entirely reasonable one, though I disagree with it.
jmcdonaldI voted, did you?DC(ish)Registered Userregular
Its tough that folks acting in good faith with limited information are having responsibility for the deaths of children placed on them by armchair quarterbacks 20 years later.
Amazing what living in an imperfect world is like. Sometimes the crazys gonna crazy. Good thing we don't know who really killed those kids...oh wait.
Again. Any attempt to place legal, moral or ethical culpability on the ATF or the FBI for the murder of those children is goosery of the highest level. If you're arguing that they didn't save them fast enough? Well no shit Sherlock.
It wasn't wrong for people on 9/11 to assume they were going to sit tight and spend the night in Cuba, in a way that entirely changed following the precedent set that day.
The six points are all similar in the sense that no precedent existed, and nobody in good faith could argue that those things could necessarily be anticipated.
Even if the possibility of using aircraft as missiles had been suggested prior to 9/11, nobody has culpability for not anticipating that course of action and reparipreparing for the precedent that was set.
Similarly, lessons learned on Waco such as those six points are not to assign blame, but rather take the new information and precedent and incorporate those lessons into the best practices and procedures going forward.
Stop treating those six lessons as blame that should have been anticipated or negligence and instead professionals learning with the benefit of hindsight.
Edit- note that following current procedures and best practices is pretty much the definition of competent. The ATF / FBI were competent, they just fucked up in a black swan situation.
It wasn't wrong for people on 9/11 to assume they were going to sit tight and spend the night in Cuba, in a way that entirely changed following the precedent set that day.
The six points are all similar in the sense that no precedent existed, and nobody in good faith could argue that those things could necessarily be anticipated.
Even if the possibility of using aircraft as missiles had been suggested prior to 9/11, nobody has culpability for not anticipating that course of action and preparing for the precedent that was set.
This analogy has been brought up a few times, and I don't think it flies (no pun intended).
1) 9/11 was the first time planes were used as missiles in the real world. Waco was not the first time a religious extremist group committed mass suicide in response to law enforcement action.
2) This analogy compares the actions of untrained, uninformed airline passengers to the actions of professional law enforcement. Those two groups should not be held to the same standard.
3) I do think that some (not all) of the moral culpability for the loss of life on 9/11 falls on the shoulders of former President Bush and members of his administration who chose to ignore warnings about the threat that Bin Laden represented and chose to treat Al-Qaeda as a low priority.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
1) Agreed, but the mass suicide was a later event. The ATF had no experience of mass suicide resulting from the investigation of illegal arms, and their protocols wouldn't reasonably have accommodated that as a likely possibility. Honestly, mass suicide as a result of law enforcement action was not a common thing, and the ur case - Jonestown - was not a direct cause and effect of an immediate action or raid
2) Not just passengers, but air crew, flight attendants, and airline protocols and policy. As well as law enforcement protocols in response to a hijacking. Those official and professional protocols for trained personnel are comparable.
3) Apples and oranges. The actions of the Bush administration in response to known and definite threats was clearly negligent - no argument from me. But the people 'on the ground' (and in the air) acted according to best practices that anticipated what was known and expected, not the mostly unprecedented . Obviously those protocols changed following 9/11 as they did for Waco, but the airlines and airborne weren't criminally negligent as Vorpal had argued for anticipating what had been seen in the hundreds of prior hijackings, not the 'black swan event' that was 9/11...and also Waco
1) Agreed, but the mass suicide was a later event. The ATF had no experience of mass suicide resulting from the investigation of illegal arms, and their protocols wouldn't reasonably have accommodated that as a likely possibility. Honestly, mass suicide as a result of law enforcement action was not a common thing, and the ur case - Jonestown - was not a direct cause and effect of an immediate action or raid
2) Not just passengers, but air crew, flight attendants, and airline protocols and policy. As well as law enforcement protocols in response to a hijacking. Those official and professional protocols for trained personnel are comparable.
3) Apples and oranges. The actions of the Bush administration in response to known and definite threats was clearly negligent - no argument from me. But the people 'on the ground' (and in the air) acted according to best practices that anticipated what was known and expected, not the mostly unprecedented . Obviously those protocols changed following 9/11 as they did for Waco, but the airlines and airborne weren't criminally negligent as Vorpal had argued for anticipating what had been seen in the hundreds of prior hijackings, not the 'black swan event' that was 9/11...and also Waco
Fair enough.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
You are acting like a huge fucking goose vorpal. There is NO moral culpability on the ATF or the FBI here. You know why? Because the Davidians made the choice to not come out. Then they chose to kill those children. The ATF and the FBI contribution was by attempting to enforce the law. You want to argue if they could have done it better? Fine. But don't fucking dare try to pin those deaths on the people trying to do their jobs and then go home to their families.
Goose.
This is what happens when incompetent people are in charge. I found myself unsympathetic when I saw footage of the agent rolling around on the roof trying to avoid shotgun rounds. Idiots.... all of them. They could have chosen a different way to serve the warrant.
Basically from your comments I draw the following conclusion: It's so obvious that to save the children you have to kill them.
It appears the FBI agreed with that conclusion. I hope the people who participated in the raid have nightmares every night until the day they pass away. Probably not going to happen because you have to have a conscience.....
You are acting like a huge fucking goose vorpal. There is NO moral culpability on the ATF or the FBI here. You know why? Because the Davidians made the choice to not come out. Then they chose to kill those children. The ATF and the FBI contribution was by attempting to enforce the law. You want to argue if they could have done it better? Fine. But don't fucking dare try to pin those deaths on the people trying to do their jobs and then go home to their families.
Goose.
This is what happens when incompetent people are in charge. I found myself unsympathetic when I saw footage of the agent rolling around on the roof trying to avoid shotgun rounds. Idiots.... all of them. They could have chosen a different way to serve the warrant.
Basically from your comments I draw the following conclusion: It's so obvious that to save the children you have to kill them.
It appears the FBI agreed with that conclusion. I hope the people who participated in the raid have nightmares every night until the day they pass away. Probably not going to happen because you have to have a conscience.....
So you are of the opinion that the FBI should have expected that the Branch Davidians would respond to tear gas with the fiery murder of their own children?
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I still don't accept the premise that there was any way this could end much better by the actions of the FBI
I guess maybe just raiding the place in the night and accepting the casualty cost might have led to less children dying, but maybe not, who knows
I further don't accept the premise that having local law enforcement do the talking would have helped, unless the demands were "keep doing exactly what you're doing"
The only real mistake I can armchair is the ATF going ahead with the raid after losing the element of surprise instead of regrouping and replanning
You are acting like a huge fucking goose vorpal. There is NO moral culpability on the ATF or the FBI here. You know why? Because the Davidians made the choice to not come out. Then they chose to kill those children. The ATF and the FBI contribution was by attempting to enforce the law. You want to argue if they could have done it better? Fine. But don't fucking dare try to pin those deaths on the people trying to do their jobs and then go home to their families.
Goose.
This is what happens when incompetent people are in charge. I found myself unsympathetic when I saw footage of the agent rolling around on the roof trying to avoid shotgun rounds. Idiots.... all of them. They could have chosen a different way to serve the warrant.
Basically from your comments I draw the following conclusion: It's so obvious that to save the children you have to kill them.
It appears the FBI agreed with that conclusion. I hope the people who participated in the raid have nightmares every night until the day they pass away. Probably not going to happen because you have to have a conscience.....
You don't feel sorry for the agents (that played no role in the planning of the attack) who lost their life or got wounded because someone higher up the chain of command made a (in retrospect) poor decision?
You are acting like a huge fucking goose vorpal. There is NO moral culpability on the ATF or the FBI here. You know why? Because the Davidians made the choice to not come out. Then they chose to kill those children. The ATF and the FBI contribution was by attempting to enforce the law. You want to argue if they could have done it better? Fine. But don't fucking dare try to pin those deaths on the people trying to do their jobs and then go home to their families.
Goose.
This is what happens when incompetent people are in charge. I found myself unsympathetic when I saw footage of the agent rolling around on the roof trying to avoid shotgun rounds. Idiots.... all of them. They could have chosen a different way to serve the warrant.
Basically from your comments I draw the following conclusion: It's so obvious that to save the children you have to kill them.
It appears the FBI agreed with that conclusion. I hope the people who participated in the raid have nightmares every night until the day they pass away. Probably not going to happen because you have to have a conscience.....
Hoping that a bunch of people who possibly made a mistake 20 years ago live in constant torment kinda makes you a giant fucking asshole. Please do not be a giant fucking asshole in this thread.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Edit- note that following current procedures and best practices is pretty much the definition of competent. The ATF / FBI were competent, they just fucked up in a black swan situation.
This. The "six points" even point out that what they tried had always worked before. When you are doing the thing that you have been doing for some time with a 100% success rate, you are more likely to be deemed incompetent by deviating from it. And I have no doubt that had they deviated from their past policies, and Waco had still gone south, the ATF would be getting hammered for not going with the tried-and-true battle plans.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I still don't accept the premise that there was any way this could end much better by the actions of the FBI
I guess maybe just raiding the place in the night and accepting the casualty cost might have led to less children dying, but maybe not, who knows
I further don't accept the premise that having local law enforcement do the talking would have helped, unless the demands were "keep doing exactly what you're doing"
The only real mistake I can armchair is the ATF going ahead with the raid after losing the element of surprise instead of regrouping and replanning
EDIT - just want to point out that I agree with you that there isn't really a way this could have ended 'better' on the part of the ATF or the FBI.
Let's go through a hypothetical situation and accept the premise that some people in this thread have presented. While I don't agree with this premise, let's hypothesize that the ATF (as they planned / executed the initial raid) should have anticipated that the Branch Davidians were a suicidal doomsday cult. Furthermore, they should have anticipated that the response to intervention / investigation would be the murder / suicide of both the cult leadership and the innocent women / children in the compound. Without accepting these two premises, it becomes difficult to assign any blame / culpability to the ATF at all.
If we accept that premise though, it necessarily follows that once Koresh was aware of the raid, the ATF would be compelled to move forward as planned without delay. Were the ATF to withdraw to regroup / replan the mission, following the precedent set at Jonestown they would be providing Koresh and the other cult leadership with an opportunity to commit mass suicide / murder. Only by moving forward immediately - storming the compound, arresting Koresh / the rest of the leadership, and putting the women / children into protective custody could they be certain to prevent a mass suicide.
Basically, the ATF would be 'damned if you do, damned if you don't.' In this premise anyway, which I reject as flawed in the first place because I don't believe that the ATF could reasonably have anticipated that Koresh and his followers would be willing to commit mass suicide on the scale we saw at Waco.
Similarly, if the ATF would be expected to anticipate the mass suicide, there are few options outside a full raid. Attempting to arrest Koresh / other cult leaders outside the compound could reasonably be expected to trigger the 'doomsday' scenario for the cult members who remained. This was also 1993, so outside of the military there was almost no use or doctrine for use of NVGs - making night operations on the scale necessary for Waco foolish.
Now - we have to remember that with the benefit of hindsight, it's 100% certain that Koresh did possess the illegal weapons that the ATF was looking for. Koresh would have known that any ATF search and further investigation would have uncovered those weapons and almost certainly uncovered the ongoing child abuse in the compound. He - and the other cult leaders - would have been certain to face a lengthy prison term and lose the ability to deal firearms (thus continuing the cult) upon eventual release. This became virtually inevitable the moment that the ATF began their investigation and established probable cause for a warrant.
It's already been pointed out multiple times why a soft approach - either by local law enforcement, or by unarmed ATF agents - would be foolish - doomsday cult or not. Short of simply ignoring the tips about automatic weapons and modified receivers, the ATF had little choice but to proceed with an investigation...which necessarily lead to a raid.
I feel I should point out that I feel that the ATF couldn't have reasonably anticipated that the Branch Davidians were a doomsday cult prepared to commit mass suicide. Thus, I do believe a mistake was made in not regrouping / replanning after they learned they lost the element of surprise.
A Place Called Waco, a popular press book written by David Thibodeau - one of the survivors of the siege.
No Heroes, a popular press book written by Danny O. Coulson, a retired FBI agent, and Elaine Shannon (of no notable credentials, as far as I'm aware).
'No More Waco's' has 'facts' presented that apparently are simply lies (again, thanks to @Feral ), so scratch that one (I'm sorry to see it go, because if the authors were actually honest they would have had some valuable insight, but there you go).
What else is considered essential reading?
The problem is, the only people interested in Waco in commercially viable numbers are wackos. Its like reading a book about Obama's birth certificate. The people obsessed with it aren't going to buy a book saying everything is kosher.
Waco was basically: we thought these guys were abusing their kids, so we charged in with machine guns blazing and tanks rolling to save the kids. Mysteriously, lots of the kids ended up dead.
The waco people were crazy doomsday cultists who thought the government was going to come try to kill them all and the ATF was criminally incompetent and reliably handled everything in the worst possible manner. I remember watching it, just appalled at the idiocy on all sides. The davidians were doomsday cultists, so the ATF thought it would be a great idea to practice aggressive sleep deprivation tactics during the siege. Then they were shocked, shocked when the davidians did something crazy like immolating themselves.
they planned to and then did fire on federal law enforcement officials with a valid search warrant. They killed four federal agents in the initial extended exchange of fire. No Davidians were killed until after the initial standoff, when a group of Davidians tried to break through the sealed off area back into the compound, supposedly in ignorance.
This is simply flatly incorrect. ATF agents penetrated the compound and killed a couple Davidians inside. It seems highly likely some Davidians were hit by friendly fire. It seems highly likely some ATF agents were hit by friendly fire. (I remember watching lots of slow motion shots on the news as people afterwards tried to make sense of the debacle) The group of Davidians you say were leaving were actually entering - one of them fired at ATF agents and was killed, but that was hours and hours after the original raid, which saw 4 ATF agents and 5 branch davidians die.
Bullshit.
This Special Counsel report includes the autopsy report of every Davidian killed. Tell me which ones the FBI infiltrated and killed.
That is, if your reading comprehension advanced past not understanding that "back into the compound" doesn't mean leaving the compound.
Edit- note that following current procedures and best practices is pretty much the definition of competent. The ATF / FBI were competent, they just fucked up in a black swan situation.
This. The "six points" even point out that what they tried had always worked before. When you are doing the thing that you have been doing for some time with a 100% success rate, you are more likely to be deemed incompetent by deviating from it. And I have no doubt that had they deviated from their past policies, and Waco had still gone south, the ATF would be getting hammered for not going with the tried-and-true battle plans.
And the only reason it didn't work was because local members of the government (a postal worker) passed information that federal agents were coming with an arrest warrant.
The idea that six weeks was too short a time to wait before attempting to arrest them also makes no sense to me. What situation was going to arise where they were going to give up peacefully? A crisis of faith? This is a group that literally believed their leader was God and that because the government was trying to arrest God, that the government was the "forces of darkness." To give up meant damnation.
Edit- note that following current procedures and best practices is pretty much the definition of competent. The ATF / FBI were competent, they just fucked up in a black swan situation.
This. The "six points" even point out that what they tried had always worked before. When you are doing the thing that you have been doing for some time with a 100% success rate, you are more likely to be deemed incompetent by deviating from it. And I have no doubt that had they deviated from their past policies, and Waco had still gone south, the ATF would be getting hammered for not going with the tried-and-true battle plans.
And the only reason it didn't work was because local members of the government (a postal worker) passed information that federal agents were coming with an arrest warrant.
And that's the one point where I feel there was a serious strategic aspect of possible incompetence. The element of surprise seemed to be a pretty important part, so losing that would seem to warrant some reconsideration.
Even so, I'm not sure what the alternative would be, given the axiom that immediate use of force was necessary. You were already planning for a heavily armed and armored assault. So... a really really heavily armed and armored assault?
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
What situation was going to arise where they were going to give up peacefully? A crisis of faith? This is a group that literally believed their leader was God and that because the government was trying to arrest God, that the government was the "forces of darkness." To give up meant damnation.
I think it's probable that had the search warrant been executed by the local sheriff, possibly accompanied by one or two ATF agents, the warrant would have been serviced peacefully. You've dismissed this notion as prima-facie ridiculous; I see it as prima-facie obvious.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
What situation was going to arise where they were going to give up peacefully? A crisis of faith? This is a group that literally believed their leader was God and that because the government was trying to arrest God, that the government was the "forces of darkness." To give up meant damnation.
I think it's probable that had the search warrant been executed by the local sheriff, possibly accompanied by one or two ATF agents, the warrant would have been serviced peacefully. You've dismissed this notion as prima-facie ridiculous; I see it as prima-facie obvious.
What? That a child-raping psychopath with a cache of illegal weapons is going to let the ATF poke around unmolested?
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
What situation was going to arise where they were going to give up peacefully? A crisis of faith? This is a group that literally believed their leader was God and that because the government was trying to arrest God, that the government was the "forces of darkness." To give up meant damnation.
I think it's probable that had the search warrant been executed by the local sheriff, possibly accompanied by one or two ATF agents, the warrant would have been serviced peacefully. You've dismissed this notion as prima-facie ridiculous; I see it as prima-facie obvious.
and if they let him execute the search warrant, what happens when the sheriff demands they give their guns up?
They just go ahead and do it? I think, given the fact that their previous cooperation with the sheriff was severely overstated, that it's more likely you'd have 2 dead atf agents and a dead sheriff
Kuresh was TRYING to provoke the exact kind of stand off that occurred
What situation was going to arise where they were going to give up peacefully? A crisis of faith? This is a group that literally believed their leader was God and that because the government was trying to arrest God, that the government was the "forces of darkness." To give up meant damnation.
I think it's probable that had the search warrant been executed by the local sheriff, possibly accompanied by one or two ATF agents, the warrant would have been serviced peacefully. You've dismissed this notion as prima-facie ridiculous; I see it as prima-facie obvious.
I don't see - especially in hindsight - how this could possibly be considered 'obvious'. I think the most 'obvious' outcome would be the sheriff and ATF agents taken as hostages or at best sent away, while the Branch Davidians armed up / took up defensive positions. Exactly as they did when they found out about the raid, rather than working with the informant to get into contact with the ATF and arrange a peaceful surrender.
I'll grant a possibility that it could have gone either way, but it's reasonable for the risk to the local sheriff / ATF agents (and risk of operational failure due to loss of surprise, were the peaceful approach to fail) to be evaluated as unacceptably high.
As I said, we know today 100% without a doubt that were the ATF to execute that warrant, they would have found illegally converted weapons. At a minimum, members of the cult leadership would have gone to prison, and the cult would lose their primary source of income when they lost their FFL. That's disregarding the chance - known to Koresh and other cult leaders - that in the course of investigation the weapons the ATF / FBI / other authorities would uncover evidence of child sexual abuse.
Tell me which ones the FBI infiltrated and killed.
Let me make sure I have your argument straight.
Are you saying that none of the Branch Davidians that died in the initial firefight were shot by the ATF?
I have no idea why you say things like 'infiltrated' or 'FBI' unless we are talking about two completely different events and not realizing it.
Your initial statement that no Branch Davidians died until after the initial stand off is also incorrect.
Four ATF agents: Steve Willis, Robert Williams, Todd McKeehan and Conway LeBleu were killed during the raid. Another 16 were wounded. The five Branch Davidians killed in the 9:45 am raid were Winston Blake (British), Peter Gent (Australian), Peter Hipsman, Perry Jones and Jaydean Wendell; two at the hands of the Branch Davidians themselves.[48] Nearly six hours after the 11:30 am ceasefire, Michael Schroeder was shot dead by ATF agents who alleged he fired a pistol at agents as he attempted to re-enter the compound with Woodrow Kendrick and Norman Allison.[22] The news media initially reported Schroeder was shot breaking out of Mount Carmel. His wife claimed that he was merely returning from work and had not participated in the day's earlier altercation.[47]
I assume you meant that no Branch Davidians were killed by the ATF until after the initial stand off, but I think that statement is incorrect as well.
Also, for those who wish evil on the ATF officers who were on the raid, read something like this:
You get an idea of the horrific situation these ATF agents were put into. Outnumbered, outgunned, thrust into a situation where the enemy had all the advantages of terrain and firepower and knew they were coming. They were absolutely shot to pieces, and these men hadn't done anything wrong. They didn't deserve that. They were simply obeying orders to serve a lawful warrant. I think the decision to go ahead with the raid after they already knew their cover was blown comes is probably the most incompetent thing that happened in that raid. It led to the needless deaths of four innocent ATF agents just trying to do their job, and many more were (sometimes badly) wounded.
One thing about this that I have always wondered is what lessons were learned from the siege/ raid and how federal law enforcement would handle a situation like this today.
One thing about this that I have always wondered is what lessons were learned from the siege/ raid and how federal law enforcement would handle a situation like this today.
Vorpal posted this on the previous page:
The following six "lessons learned" were offered by the three commanders and other sources who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak about the raid.
Overly confident planning involving an unknown threat. The Branch Davidians presented a new kind of threat to law enforcement—a heavily armed doomsday sect. Raid planners didn't adequately address Koresh's apocalyptic beliefs and willingness to defend the compound to the death. The ATF also had a nearly flawless track record using entry control teams without a full-fledged tactical unit. "We had never failed before," Maslin said. Buford added, "We were going to go in there, kick a little booty, and be home by noon. It didn't work that way."
No sniper teams. At the time, the ATF didn't have SRT snipers who could have ended the carnage sooner. Following Waco, the ATF supplemented these tactical units, establishing permanent tactical commanders and adding specialized roles to SRT such as snipers, K-9 units, and tactical medics. The agency eliminated its 24 field division SRTs in favor of five regional tactical units.
Lack of quality intelligence before the raid. ATF commanders decided to proceed with the raid, even though the Branch Davidians were expecting them. The agency had lost the element of surprise, after a postal carrier tipped off sect leaders. The ATF had hired an ambulance company to provide medical support, and an employee leaked it to a television reporter who asked the carrier, who was Koresh's brother-in-law, for directions to the compound. Rodriguez learned his cover was blown and relayed this information to commanders. When agents emerged from horse trailers at the compound, Branch Davidians opened fire from more than 40 firing positions, including from atop a water tower.
Limited medical resources. Only two of the ATF agents involved in the raid were trained in tactical medicine. They provided life-saving care; however, the agency later created a tactical medic unit that undergoes extensive training, including training at the Casualty Care Research Center/Bethesda Naval Hospital and John Hopkins Medical College/Hospital.
Agents were outgunned. ATF agents were mostly armed with shotguns, revolvers, and 9mm pistols. Several had semi-auto MP5s and AR-15s. ATF SRT operators now carry M-4s and .40-caliber semi-auto pistols. Petrilli said the Branch Davidians fired first and ATF agents returned fire "in defense of yourself or a fellow person."
No contingency plan. Buford said he didn't develop a plan for a strategic withdrawal if the raid went sideways, and ATF agents only began to pull back when they began running out of ammo. "You can't make a snap decision when you're under fire," Buford said. "We were like lost sheep leaving the compound." A strong contingency plan is now required on every ATF raid.
Basically, militarize more.
Plan for more contingencies, heavier and more potent weapons, treat it as planning for a combat / military operation instead of a law enforcement operation.
That has mostly been because we are treating non violent drug offenders exactly as if they posed a deadly threat.
Additionally, I think one can simultaneously believe that our police are over militarized in their day to day police work, while also believing that dedicated SWAT teams sent in to take down an armed to the teeth cult needed to be more heavily armed than they were. I don't view that as an inherent contradiction.
I mean, there's a place for SWAT teams. You just don't want them committing forced entries for every little thing.
I think the problem is that local governments get SWAT teams, and then want proof that they are worth the price. So they use SWAT units where SWAT units are not needed to justify the price.
The problem is not SWAT itself, its our over eagerness to use them in situations that really do not call for them.
One thing about this that I have always wondered is what lessons were learned from the siege/ raid and how federal law enforcement would handle a situation like this today.
Vorpal posted this on the previous page:
The following six "lessons learned" were offered by the three commanders and other sources who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak about the raid.
Overly confident planning involving an unknown threat. The Branch Davidians presented a new kind of threat to law enforcement—a heavily armed doomsday sect. Raid planners didn't adequately address Koresh's apocalyptic beliefs and willingness to defend the compound to the death. The ATF also had a nearly flawless track record using entry control teams without a full-fledged tactical unit. "We had never failed before," Maslin said. Buford added, "We were going to go in there, kick a little booty, and be home by noon. It didn't work that way."
No sniper teams. At the time, the ATF didn't have SRT snipers who could have ended the carnage sooner. Following Waco, the ATF supplemented these tactical units, establishing permanent tactical commanders and adding specialized roles to SRT such as snipers, K-9 units, and tactical medics. The agency eliminated its 24 field division SRTs in favor of five regional tactical units.
Lack of quality intelligence before the raid. ATF commanders decided to proceed with the raid, even though the Branch Davidians were expecting them. The agency had lost the element of surprise, after a postal carrier tipped off sect leaders. The ATF had hired an ambulance company to provide medical support, and an employee leaked it to a television reporter who asked the carrier, who was Koresh's brother-in-law, for directions to the compound. Rodriguez learned his cover was blown and relayed this information to commanders. When agents emerged from horse trailers at the compound, Branch Davidians opened fire from more than 40 firing positions, including from atop a water tower.
Limited medical resources. Only two of the ATF agents involved in the raid were trained in tactical medicine. They provided life-saving care; however, the agency later created a tactical medic unit that undergoes extensive training, including training at the Casualty Care Research Center/Bethesda Naval Hospital and John Hopkins Medical College/Hospital.
Agents were outgunned. ATF agents were mostly armed with shotguns, revolvers, and 9mm pistols. Several had semi-auto MP5s and AR-15s. ATF SRT operators now carry M-4s and .40-caliber semi-auto pistols. Petrilli said the Branch Davidians fired first and ATF agents returned fire "in defense of yourself or a fellow person."
No contingency plan. Buford said he didn't develop a plan for a strategic withdrawal if the raid went sideways, and ATF agents only began to pull back when they began running out of ammo. "You can't make a snap decision when you're under fire," Buford said. "We were like lost sheep leaving the compound." A strong contingency plan is now required on every ATF raid.
Basically, militarize more.
Plan for more contingencies, heavier and more potent weapons, treat it as planning for a combat / military operation instead of a law enforcement operation.
Oh sure, but what about the larger picture?
Would the FBI play the situation different today(siege or just assault right away, for example) or just change their tactics when they didn't go in?
The team's final certification exercise, code named Operation Equus Red, was held in October 1983 at Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico. During the exercise, the HRT, a local SWAT team, and a United States Department of Energy Nuclear Emergency Search Team (NEST) were tasked with assaulting a terrorist stronghold. The "terrorist" group was also believed to be in possession of a simulated nuclear device, which was at a separate location and had to be recovered or neutralized. After the NEST aircraft confirmed the location of the device, HRT operators infiltrated the terrorist safe house, secured the device, and managed to "kill" the terrorist involved in approximately 30 seconds. The FBI's senior leadership viewed the exercise as a complete success and granted final approval for the team to become fully operational
The HRT is known to conduct joint training exercises and participate in exchange programs with US military units such as the US Army's Combat Applications Group (otherwise known as 1st SFOD-D Delta Force) or the U.S. Navy's DEVGRU. The HRT routinely trains with other federal tactical teams such as the DEA's FAST Team, the United States Border Patrol's BORTAC unit or the United States Capitol Police's CERT. Occasionally the HRT trains with France's GIGN, Britain's SAS and Special Boat Service, the Australian SAS, Germany's GSG 9, and other international units.[5] In addition to the HRT's own facilities, the HRT routinely uses private and 1st SFOD-D Delta Force shoot houses and ranges. The HRT has also been known to train at Camp Peary and Harvey Point.
Yeah, they probably could of helped. But I think since the issue at had was the firearms (and not the kids), the ATF got sent in.
But I'm not too sure about who/when FBI/other Federal resources like this are allocated.
I think the problem is that local governments get SWAT teams, and then want proof that they are worth the price. So they use SWAT units where SWAT units are not needed to justify the price.
The problem is not SWAT itself, its our over eagerness to use them in situations that really do not call for them.
Agreed on the local law enforcement being the problem here. State and Federal would feel less compelled to do stupid shit to justify have such resources, partly because they would have jurisdiction over a large enough area that the law of averages would result in enough situations where such force is justified. Then you have the stupid concept of, where going to elect the sheriff, thus resulting in your chief law enforcement official being more concerned about winning elections than doing their job properly.
Anyways, I'm not sure modern mass media tech and the dumb ass media would have helped crazy cultists do more damage or come off as more sympathetic. I think any law enforcement worth their salt would shut down any outside access to the compound. I also get a sneaky hunch that it would be harder to make crazy people seem more sympathetic, since mass media seems to make it more likely that the crazies will have said something that can be used to swiftly crush any public support that isn't from the fringes of society.
Hoping that a bunch of people who possibly made a mistake 20 years ago live in constant torment kinda makes you a giant fucking asshole. Please do not be a giant fucking asshole in this thread.
I guess I am an asshole then. 2 of the same people who were in this mess were at ruby ridge. It appeared the Clinton DoJ had not learned anything from the Weaver incident. They didn't learn after this with Elian Gonalez. At least he got out alive, if sending him back to Cuba was an improvement on his condition..........
I am a local to the Waco area. Granted, the compound was miles away from the city limits, but it was very much a local event.
I don't know why you guys keep saying that the fire was lit by the davidians themselves. The winds were high, devices were fired into the compound, and the davidians were using oil lamps. Lots of factors combined and resulted in a lot of dead people. Both sides were at fault, but the FBI/ATF/DoJ were over the top in their use of force. And the official story kept getting amended.....
The FBI/ATF/DOJ weren't the ones who introduced automatic weapons into the equation; their use of force was not excessive.
As for the fires, there is the infrared video showing that they were lit in rapid succession and the radio traffic discussing lighting them when the tanks were brought in.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
- John Stuart Mill
+1
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
I don't know why you guys keep saying that the fire was lit by the davidians themselves.
Because they were? Is this some kind of hard thought to grasp
Yeah it's amazing i can function at all really. You sure do know how to argue your case.
I hadn't read through the pertinent documents, i was operating off of media information from 2 decades ago. I finally found the arson report from 1993. In addition there is a article from the waco observer. The commentary from both sides is interesting.... byron mentions the points of origin. The last link is the Texas rangers investigation which negates or puts into question some of the facts from the DoJ, specifically the use of pyrotechnic tear gas rounds. They had some diesel and gasoline fuel. More diesel than gas, which is significant (cause diesel is a bitch to get ignited). One witness inside says he heard some male voices talking about the fires. We know they were using lamps and had fuel in various places and that the fuel was moved around. We know the DoJ used a shitton of tear gas / ferret rounds, some of which appear to have been pyrotechnic.
I tend to trust the rangers more than the DOJ. The rangers aren't having to cover for anyone. But on the other hand, occam's razor tends to indicate the davidians did themselves in.
All in all interesting read. especially the details on the siege and the tactics used by the government. This doesn't change my opinion of the scumbags running the op. In fact the siege information is especially irritating to me given the number of minors/children in the compound.
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The goals of the FBI and ATF were fine. Serve a warrant on some dangerous nutcases/rescue some children from dangerous nutcases. I am saying the tactics they used are in hindsight (and many thought at the time) quite clearly the wrong ones, and that it is desirable that our law enforcement agencies prove to be much better at carrying out their jobs than the ATF/FBI were in that particular case.
I also argue that the Branch Davidians, besides making incompetent decisions that contributed to a bad situation that led to the deaths of innocent children are also directly (at least some of them) morally culpable for the deaths of those children because they directly killed them by shooting and/or fire. Several of the branch davidians are, in my opinion, unarguably guilty of murder - both of children and of ATF agents shot down while lawfully serving a valid warrant. I don't think any of the FBI/ATF are guilty of murder. As the Branch Davidians started shit in the first place, even the least guilty member of the cult is more responsible for the deaths of the kids than the most responsible member of the FBI/ATF. However everyone basically seems to agree with this part of my argument.
I also think the argument that the ATF/FBI, while making bad decisions, were not incompetent and we only think so with the unfair advantage of hindsight, is an entirely reasonable one, though I disagree with it.
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion
Amazing what living in an imperfect world is like. Sometimes the crazys gonna crazy. Good thing we don't know who really killed those kids...oh wait.
Again. Any attempt to place legal, moral or ethical culpability on the ATF or the FBI for the murder of those children is goosery of the highest level. If you're arguing that they didn't save them fast enough? Well no shit Sherlock.
The six points are all similar in the sense that no precedent existed, and nobody in good faith could argue that those things could necessarily be anticipated.
Even if the possibility of using aircraft as missiles had been suggested prior to 9/11, nobody has culpability for not anticipating that course of action and reparipreparing for the precedent that was set.
Similarly, lessons learned on Waco such as those six points are not to assign blame, but rather take the new information and precedent and incorporate those lessons into the best practices and procedures going forward.
Stop treating those six lessons as blame that should have been anticipated or negligence and instead professionals learning with the benefit of hindsight.
Edit- note that following current procedures and best practices is pretty much the definition of competent. The ATF / FBI were competent, they just fucked up in a black swan situation.
This analogy has been brought up a few times, and I don't think it flies (no pun intended).
1) 9/11 was the first time planes were used as missiles in the real world. Waco was not the first time a religious extremist group committed mass suicide in response to law enforcement action.
2) This analogy compares the actions of untrained, uninformed airline passengers to the actions of professional law enforcement. Those two groups should not be held to the same standard.
3) I do think that some (not all) of the moral culpability for the loss of life on 9/11 falls on the shoulders of former President Bush and members of his administration who chose to ignore warnings about the threat that Bin Laden represented and chose to treat Al-Qaeda as a low priority.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
1) Agreed, but the mass suicide was a later event. The ATF had no experience of mass suicide resulting from the investigation of illegal arms, and their protocols wouldn't reasonably have accommodated that as a likely possibility. Honestly, mass suicide as a result of law enforcement action was not a common thing, and the ur case - Jonestown - was not a direct cause and effect of an immediate action or raid
2) Not just passengers, but air crew, flight attendants, and airline protocols and policy. As well as law enforcement protocols in response to a hijacking. Those official and professional protocols for trained personnel are comparable.
3) Apples and oranges. The actions of the Bush administration in response to known and definite threats was clearly negligent - no argument from me. But the people 'on the ground' (and in the air) acted according to best practices that anticipated what was known and expected, not the mostly unprecedented . Obviously those protocols changed following 9/11 as they did for Waco, but the airlines and airborne weren't criminally negligent as Vorpal had argued for anticipating what had been seen in the hundreds of prior hijackings, not the 'black swan event' that was 9/11...and also Waco
Fair enough.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
This is what happens when incompetent people are in charge. I found myself unsympathetic when I saw footage of the agent rolling around on the roof trying to avoid shotgun rounds. Idiots.... all of them. They could have chosen a different way to serve the warrant.
Basically from your comments I draw the following conclusion: It's so obvious that to save the children you have to kill them.
It appears the FBI agreed with that conclusion. I hope the people who participated in the raid have nightmares every night until the day they pass away. Probably not going to happen because you have to have a conscience.....
So you are of the opinion that the FBI should have expected that the Branch Davidians would respond to tear gas with the fiery murder of their own children?
- John Stuart Mill
I guess maybe just raiding the place in the night and accepting the casualty cost might have led to less children dying, but maybe not, who knows
I further don't accept the premise that having local law enforcement do the talking would have helped, unless the demands were "keep doing exactly what you're doing"
The only real mistake I can armchair is the ATF going ahead with the raid after losing the element of surprise instead of regrouping and replanning
You don't feel sorry for the agents (that played no role in the planning of the attack) who lost their life or got wounded because someone higher up the chain of command made a (in retrospect) poor decision?
Fucking really?
@Mordra -
Hoping that a bunch of people who possibly made a mistake 20 years ago live in constant torment kinda makes you a giant fucking asshole. Please do not be a giant fucking asshole in this thread.
This. The "six points" even point out that what they tried had always worked before. When you are doing the thing that you have been doing for some time with a 100% success rate, you are more likely to be deemed incompetent by deviating from it. And I have no doubt that had they deviated from their past policies, and Waco had still gone south, the ATF would be getting hammered for not going with the tried-and-true battle plans.
EDIT - just want to point out that I agree with you that there isn't really a way this could have ended 'better' on the part of the ATF or the FBI.
Let's go through a hypothetical situation and accept the premise that some people in this thread have presented. While I don't agree with this premise, let's hypothesize that the ATF (as they planned / executed the initial raid) should have anticipated that the Branch Davidians were a suicidal doomsday cult. Furthermore, they should have anticipated that the response to intervention / investigation would be the murder / suicide of both the cult leadership and the innocent women / children in the compound. Without accepting these two premises, it becomes difficult to assign any blame / culpability to the ATF at all.
If we accept that premise though, it necessarily follows that once Koresh was aware of the raid, the ATF would be compelled to move forward as planned without delay. Were the ATF to withdraw to regroup / replan the mission, following the precedent set at Jonestown they would be providing Koresh and the other cult leadership with an opportunity to commit mass suicide / murder. Only by moving forward immediately - storming the compound, arresting Koresh / the rest of the leadership, and putting the women / children into protective custody could they be certain to prevent a mass suicide.
Basically, the ATF would be 'damned if you do, damned if you don't.' In this premise anyway, which I reject as flawed in the first place because I don't believe that the ATF could reasonably have anticipated that Koresh and his followers would be willing to commit mass suicide on the scale we saw at Waco.
Similarly, if the ATF would be expected to anticipate the mass suicide, there are few options outside a full raid. Attempting to arrest Koresh / other cult leaders outside the compound could reasonably be expected to trigger the 'doomsday' scenario for the cult members who remained. This was also 1993, so outside of the military there was almost no use or doctrine for use of NVGs - making night operations on the scale necessary for Waco foolish.
Now - we have to remember that with the benefit of hindsight, it's 100% certain that Koresh did possess the illegal weapons that the ATF was looking for. Koresh would have known that any ATF search and further investigation would have uncovered those weapons and almost certainly uncovered the ongoing child abuse in the compound. He - and the other cult leaders - would have been certain to face a lengthy prison term and lose the ability to deal firearms (thus continuing the cult) upon eventual release. This became virtually inevitable the moment that the ATF began their investigation and established probable cause for a warrant.
It's already been pointed out multiple times why a soft approach - either by local law enforcement, or by unarmed ATF agents - would be foolish - doomsday cult or not. Short of simply ignoring the tips about automatic weapons and modified receivers, the ATF had little choice but to proceed with an investigation...which necessarily lead to a raid.
I feel I should point out that I feel that the ATF couldn't have reasonably anticipated that the Branch Davidians were a doomsday cult prepared to commit mass suicide. Thus, I do believe a mistake was made in not regrouping / replanning after they learned they lost the element of surprise.
No we send federal agents to arrest the extremely heavily armed apocalyptic child raping cultists. A polite note from the local sheriff
The problem is, the only people interested in Waco in commercially viable numbers are wackos. Its like reading a book about Obama's birth certificate. The people obsessed with it aren't going to buy a book saying everything is kosher.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Bullshit.
This Special Counsel report includes the autopsy report of every Davidian killed. Tell me which ones the FBI infiltrated and killed.
That is, if your reading comprehension advanced past not understanding that "back into the compound" doesn't mean leaving the compound.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
And the only reason it didn't work was because local members of the government (a postal worker) passed information that federal agents were coming with an arrest warrant.
The idea that six weeks was too short a time to wait before attempting to arrest them also makes no sense to me. What situation was going to arise where they were going to give up peacefully? A crisis of faith? This is a group that literally believed their leader was God and that because the government was trying to arrest God, that the government was the "forces of darkness." To give up meant damnation.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
And that's the one point where I feel there was a serious strategic aspect of possible incompetence. The element of surprise seemed to be a pretty important part, so losing that would seem to warrant some reconsideration.
Even so, I'm not sure what the alternative would be, given the axiom that immediate use of force was necessary. You were already planning for a heavily armed and armored assault. So... a really really heavily armed and armored assault?
I think it's probable that had the search warrant been executed by the local sheriff, possibly accompanied by one or two ATF agents, the warrant would have been serviced peacefully. You've dismissed this notion as prima-facie ridiculous; I see it as prima-facie obvious.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
What? That a child-raping psychopath with a cache of illegal weapons is going to let the ATF poke around unmolested?
- John Stuart Mill
and if they let him execute the search warrant, what happens when the sheriff demands they give their guns up?
They just go ahead and do it? I think, given the fact that their previous cooperation with the sheriff was severely overstated, that it's more likely you'd have 2 dead atf agents and a dead sheriff
Kuresh was TRYING to provoke the exact kind of stand off that occurred
I don't see - especially in hindsight - how this could possibly be considered 'obvious'. I think the most 'obvious' outcome would be the sheriff and ATF agents taken as hostages or at best sent away, while the Branch Davidians armed up / took up defensive positions. Exactly as they did when they found out about the raid, rather than working with the informant to get into contact with the ATF and arrange a peaceful surrender.
I'll grant a possibility that it could have gone either way, but it's reasonable for the risk to the local sheriff / ATF agents (and risk of operational failure due to loss of surprise, were the peaceful approach to fail) to be evaluated as unacceptably high.
As I said, we know today 100% without a doubt that were the ATF to execute that warrant, they would have found illegally converted weapons. At a minimum, members of the cult leadership would have gone to prison, and the cult would lose their primary source of income when they lost their FFL. That's disregarding the chance - known to Koresh and other cult leaders - that in the course of investigation the weapons the ATF / FBI / other authorities would uncover evidence of child sexual abuse.
Let me make sure I have your argument straight.
Are you saying that none of the Branch Davidians that died in the initial firefight were shot by the ATF?
I have no idea why you say things like 'infiltrated' or 'FBI' unless we are talking about two completely different events and not realizing it.
Your initial statement that no Branch Davidians died until after the initial stand off is also incorrect.
I assume you meant that no Branch Davidians were killed by the ATF until after the initial stand off, but I think that statement is incorrect as well.
Also, for those who wish evil on the ATF officers who were on the raid, read something like this:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/waco_raid/index.html
You get an idea of the horrific situation these ATF agents were put into. Outnumbered, outgunned, thrust into a situation where the enemy had all the advantages of terrain and firepower and knew they were coming. They were absolutely shot to pieces, and these men hadn't done anything wrong. They didn't deserve that. They were simply obeying orders to serve a lawful warrant. I think the decision to go ahead with the raid after they already knew their cover was blown comes is probably the most incompetent thing that happened in that raid. It led to the needless deaths of four innocent ATF agents just trying to do their job, and many more were (sometimes badly) wounded.
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion
Vorpal posted this on the previous page:
Basically, militarize more.
Plan for more contingencies, heavier and more potent weapons, treat it as planning for a combat / military operation instead of a law enforcement operation.
Additionally, I think one can simultaneously believe that our police are over militarized in their day to day police work, while also believing that dedicated SWAT teams sent in to take down an armed to the teeth cult needed to be more heavily armed than they were. I don't view that as an inherent contradiction.
I mean, there's a place for SWAT teams. You just don't want them committing forced entries for every little thing.
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion
The problem is not SWAT itself, its our over eagerness to use them in situations that really do not call for them.
Would the FBI play the situation different today(siege or just assault right away, for example) or just change their tactics when they didn't go in?
this would result in a body count, on both sides, and we'd find out if it's better than the old tactics
- John Stuart Mill
Does HRT even have enough operators to do that in a situation with 40-50 shooters? That was a big fucking compound with a lot of crazies.
But everything up to that would play out mostly the same?
Minor differences that could be huge, but yeah. Betteressage / communication control between cultists and press would be the big thing.
HRT got greenlighted after completing a simulated assault on an airbase with NEST (Nuclear Emergency Response Team)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage_Rescue_Team
Yeah, they probably could of helped. But I think since the issue at had was the firearms (and not the kids), the ATF got sent in.
But I'm not too sure about who/when FBI/other Federal resources like this are allocated.
Agreed on the local law enforcement being the problem here. State and Federal would feel less compelled to do stupid shit to justify have such resources, partly because they would have jurisdiction over a large enough area that the law of averages would result in enough situations where such force is justified. Then you have the stupid concept of, where going to elect the sheriff, thus resulting in your chief law enforcement official being more concerned about winning elections than doing their job properly.
Anyways, I'm not sure modern mass media tech and the dumb ass media would have helped crazy cultists do more damage or come off as more sympathetic. I think any law enforcement worth their salt would shut down any outside access to the compound. I also get a sneaky hunch that it would be harder to make crazy people seem more sympathetic, since mass media seems to make it more likely that the crazies will have said something that can be used to swiftly crush any public support that isn't from the fringes of society.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
I guess I am an asshole then. 2 of the same people who were in this mess were at ruby ridge. It appeared the Clinton DoJ had not learned anything from the Weaver incident. They didn't learn after this with Elian Gonalez. At least he got out alive, if sending him back to Cuba was an improvement on his condition..........
I am a local to the Waco area. Granted, the compound was miles away from the city limits, but it was very much a local event.
I don't know why you guys keep saying that the fire was lit by the davidians themselves. The winds were high, devices were fired into the compound, and the davidians were using oil lamps. Lots of factors combined and resulted in a lot of dead people. Both sides were at fault, but the FBI/ATF/DoJ were over the top in their use of force. And the official story kept getting amended.....
As for the fires, there is the infrared video showing that they were lit in rapid succession and the radio traffic discussing lighting them when the tanks were brought in.
- John Stuart Mill
Yeah it's amazing i can function at all really. You sure do know how to argue your case.
I hadn't read through the pertinent documents, i was operating off of media information from 2 decades ago. I finally found the arson report from 1993. In addition there is a article from the waco observer. The commentary from both sides is interesting.... byron mentions the points of origin. The last link is the Texas rangers investigation which negates or puts into question some of the facts from the DoJ, specifically the use of pyrotechnic tear gas rounds. They had some diesel and gasoline fuel. More diesel than gas, which is significant (cause diesel is a bitch to get ignited). One witness inside says he heard some male voices talking about the fires. We know they were using lamps and had fuel in various places and that the fuel was moved around. We know the DoJ used a shitton of tear gas / ferret rounds, some of which appear to have been pyrotechnic.
I tend to trust the rangers more than the DOJ. The rangers aren't having to cover for anyone. But on the other hand, occam's razor tends to indicate the davidians did themselves in.
http://www.texasobserver.org/the-standoff-in-waco/
http://www.justice.gov/publications/waco/wacotwelve.html
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/branch_davidian/rangerreport.pdf
All in all interesting read. especially the details on the siege and the tactics used by the government. This doesn't change my opinion of the scumbags running the op. In fact the siege information is especially irritating to me given the number of minors/children in the compound.
- John Stuart Mill