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i like it so i'd like to put a ring on it [Diamonds and such?]
fightinfilipino
Angry as Hell#BLMRegistered User regular
Angry as Hell#BLMRegistered User regular
so you all don't have a completely context-less vacuum, i am in the market for a diamond ring. i'd like to avoid conflict or violence-tainted diamonds and am looking at lab-created or vintage diamonds. however, i have no freaking clue what i can trust in terms of all this "clarity" and "cut" and other nonsense.
i've already talked with...the person...for whom this ring is intended, and i have a good idea what this person...prefers. my issue now really is where i can go to shop for rings with good value while being trustworthy on the quality and conflict-free ends.
i suppose i'd like to hear about people's experiences in shopping for diamond rings for...unspecified purposes.
also, please no advice on diamond alternatives. we've had the conversation already and don't want to go the cubic zirconium, moissante, white sapphire, or other route.
i've already talked with...the person...for whom this ring is intended, and i have a good idea what this person...prefers. my issue now really is where i can go to shop for rings with good value while being trustworthy on the quality and conflict-free ends.
i suppose i'd like to hear about people's experiences in shopping for diamond rings for...unspecified purposes.
also, please no advice on diamond alternatives. we've had the conversation already and don't want to go the cubic zirconium, moissante, white sapphire, or other route.
+1
This discussion has been closed.
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This is one case where you cannot have your cake and eat it too, because the entire diamond market is held by DeBeers. If that doesn't matter to you, just go ahead and buy whatever diamond(s) you like, because 'conflict free' is meaningless jargon. If it does, you'll have to settle for an alternative like zirconium or artificially made diamonds (which, again, will not be the same as natural diamonds).
Err, there ends my ability to help. I'd actually been hoping it might be on the table, as I'm pondering getting someone a moissanite ring myself (she doesn't care if it's cubic zirconia, but I like to aim a little higher).
As for moral decisions, enjoy the wave of argument coming forth.
There are no good lab created diamonds that are actually diamonds.
This was a friend's experience, more or less due what these guys have to say:
http://www.brilliantearth.com/conflict-free-diamond-definition/
The short version is that 'Conflict-free' doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't pulled out of the ground by an 8 year old, at gunpoint, at the end of his 12 hour shift. Which means you're either not really getting the piece of mind you had hoped for, or you're paying a stiff premium for the product of a well regulated operation. I don't recall where they got their ring, but I think they said it was sourced in Alaska.
As for diamond ratings, wikipedia is your friend here:
Color: What color grade you're comfortable with is really up to you; there's a chart here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_color
Clarity: Speaks to little specks and spots inside the diamond (sometimes on the surface)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_clarity
I figured VS1 or better is what you want here. If her/his friends can't see the imperfections, that's really what counts.
Cut: This pertains to the general shape of the diamond, the number of facets (aka: sparklies). You might want to leave this up to her, my wife had a particular cut in mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_cut#Fancy_cuts
Apparently Princess cuts waste the least of the original diamond, but they're also popular so I doubt the diamond cartel will be passing those savings on to you, however green and friendly they purport to be.
The last "C" is carat, which I'm guessing you're familiar with. It's just the mass of the stone.
Now that you've read all that, I'd suggest going to local jewelers (even if you're looking for conflict free stuff) to familiarize yourself with what these cuts, clarities, and colors actually look like in person.
Note: don't be fooled by the 1000w lights over the display cases. Look at the stones outside (in the sun, or in the mall proper) if they'll let you.
question there is, where does one look for such diamonds while still getting value and trustworthiness...
steam | Dokkan: 868846562
Bluenile is definitely good for getting competitively priced diamonds, but I don't know about the conflict free aspect. I tend to doubt you can be both highly cost competitive and conflict free.
Canada apparently has diamond minds and I always here about that being the way to go to ensure conflict free. I don't know any specific retailers that ensure canada mined diamonds, but I would look into that.
I would disagree with there being no good lab created diamonds. If you want colored diamonds there are several places that sell large very high quality colored diamonds, as the technology has been around since the 50's. Colorless is a lot more rare, but there certainly still companies selling them. You can't get the absolute highest qualities, and you are limited to typically a carat or less, but anything better than that naturally mined is going to be $10,000+. There is a huge middle ground of very good synthetic diamonds that are reasonably priced that I think most people are interested in. Be aware though that so far the costs of synthetic colorless diamonds are about the same as mined diamonds.
Apollo and gemesis were the two companies I'd previously heard of that make synthetic diamonds. Apollo appears to be out of buisness/sold but gemesis is still around. MiaDonna is a company that I have personal experience with. They make a hybrid diamond (think CZ with a diamond shell) which seems pretty cool, but they also apparently make or buy synthetic diamonds now. I bought from there because my SO really liked their settings, and now that they make synthetic diamonds it seems like a great place to get everything. I can't vouch for the authenticity of their synthetics, but they seem like a reputable company, and are pretty upfront about the not diamond nature of the hybrid that they make. They were very customer friendly when I bought from them.
As far as I know you can get any diamond you buy independently tested at certain places to verify it is what you think it is. MiaDonna claims that all of their diamonds come with GIA (a large international tester) testing certificates, but I have no idea how hard these are to fake.
The jewelry stores around here sell used rings all the time. I don't know what your time-table is, but you could pop in every now and then and see what they've got. You could probably even persuade them to call you if they get any used engagement rings in. I also want to say estate sales, but those seem like a long shot. Really long.
That site I linked apparently also sells used rings, but it looks like a lot of the clarity ratings are down in the VS2/S1 range, which I'd want to see in person before dropping a few grand on.
Find a local artisan jewel crafter and have him/her make you a custom ring.
There are several artists in your local area that would be more than happy to take on this commission.
It'll be cheaper than any ring you find in a store, and it'll be unique too.
You cannot get into the diamond trade, either mining or marketing, without interacting with DeBeers. It is impossible. That's the fundamental problem with 'conflict free' branding - yes, you mined them in the Canadian arctic or Alaska instead of Zimbabwe - but you're still sharing the bed with DeBeers and splitting all of the royalty money with them. The customer is still fundamentally handing money over to a bunch of thugs that don't care how many dead bodies they have to step over or how far astray they have to lead people in order to make another dollar.
EDIT: The act of handing over said money and what culpability customers do or don't have is, of course, beyond the scope of this thread - but the OP should still be made aware that this is the current status quo so they can make an informed choice one way or the other.
Fake edit: apparently it's not all of them, just some; http://www.jubilee.ca/diamonds/canadian-diamonds.aspx
This is gold.
"To learn more about how petroleum is totally cleaner energy than nuclear, visit PetroleumFact.org, an educational initiative funded by Exxon Mobil."
Well, I guess you could say that. If by 'popular' you mean 'getting swindled'.
I've also read that buy supporting non african mined diamonds you are essentially driving down the price of african diamonds which is passed directly on to further screwing over the miners. This also applies to synthetic diamonds. Or I suppose to not buying diamonds at all. At some point you just have to decide what you feel is an acceptable level of culpability. To me not giving money directly seems distinct from giving money directly to the mines. So i am more ok with supporting dabeers and less ok with supporting the mines directly.
I'm going to say "eBay," and please don't laugh too hard, but basically what I would suggest is specifically searching for vintage items that have been appraised. Even if the item itself is ugly as hell, if the stone cut is nice, you could get a custom setting for an old stone and not be financing anything except someone's QVC problem.
Uncanny Magazine!
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If you look at something like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation or the Global Business Coalition, you will see entities that became aware of a problem and made an effort to solve that problem independently of how the problem was perceived by the public at the time. It didn't matter to Mr. & Mrs. Gates that nobody in the 90s gave two fucks about what was happening in Africa - it was wrong, they knew it was wrong and they wanted to make it right.
When a company like Blue Nile uses a term like 'conflict free' after the public becomes aware of a problem, it's just marketing. "Hey, people are more attracted to a product if we call it [X] now, because [X] is a trending issue,"
They don't actually give a shit. They just want to leverage the suffering as a means of advertising.
http://gemesis.com/
I would like to say if you are going lab created go with a fun color. Have a unique diamond.
Intentional, or possibly the best "Damn you auto-correct" of the day?
Some of the best quality diamonds in the world, mined by a highly paid, guilt-free workforce in outback Australia.
They're a bit expensive, but you get excellent customer service.
Lots of the jargon is confusing, and it's meant to be that way to confuse the consumer into paying for more for something that is not scarce (and cut and clarity is nearly impossible to tell without a microscope most of the time). My advice is to get a diamond that looks good to you (a lot of this will also be determined by how the diamond/diamonds are set into the ring), as anything you buy will be laughably overpriced no matter where you go or who you buy from. Get beyond the idea of being scammed, because you are being scammed one way or another, and choose based on budget and what looks attractive to you.
My wife and I went the 3D printing route for the rings. No stones, but could custom design and choose metals that otherwise would be too complex at a normal jeweler.
I purchased my wife's rings on Blue Nile.
It was very painless and their website holds your hand every step through the diamond selection query.
Brilliant Earth has a similar database IIRC.
If you want the best "deal" on your diamond or ring then buy used. Be it a pawn shop or Sotheby's/Christie's, buying on the secondary market means you don't get hosed as much on the additional utility new retailers extract from buyers. Problem I found with the auction houses is you get old and weird cuts and settings/fashion. Your giftee may not appreciate a miner cut diamond set into a man's pinky ring eventhough it is 2 carat and E color. Most people associate diamonds (and engagement rocks particularly) to the round brilliant cut, which gained major popularity with the marketing venture that put diamond solitaire rings as standard issue for engagements in the west, and now everywhere.
So if you want a round brilliant solitaire you want something that has a table/depth of around 60/60 (more like 58ish to 61ish). Why? Cause those kinds of proportions maximize sparklyness ("fire"). Now if the rock is poorly cut, then even with those proportions it may not have a lot of pop. Metrics like table and depth and girdle and fluorescence and weight and color are all objective metrics; cut is way subject to interpretation. I would suggest you go to a major local/independent dealer (NOT Kay's or Zales) and have them give you an education. They are happy to do so. I mean they are selling you something that you would be hard pressed to resell for half as much once you walk out the door (a third is more likely), and I say this as an appreciator of diamonds and jewelry.
Really, given the weird aspect of clear rocks dug out of the ground being informed by oligopolistic pressures, IMO you should go in to places where you can look at what it means for differences in karat value, or color value, or various cuts, and build your own opinion f what matters and what doesn't. Then armed with such info/opinion you can decide if you want to go retail, or online, of to an auction house, or to a pawn shop.
Note, I bought my rock (as a bare gem) "new", and had commissioned the building/setting of the ring through a small time independent jeweler. This is the most expensive way to go, and involves the most middlemen extracting their respective cuts. It's been 10 years and I'd still do it the same way. Not saying you should do it this way, just giving context. Also, I'm an engineer, and of that general mindset.
*With respect to "conflictiness".
A potential alternative is a more symbolic item as the place-setting rather than a lump of super-heated carbon. Non-traditional gemstones and alternative ring materials have become more popular and available lately, and especially if you and your spouse have some sort of backstory of item in common it might me more meaningful than a diamond from a department store or website (especially when most cuts and settings are mass produced).
Lots of folks are starting to use rings made of a meaningful item (such as a wooden ring from the Senator after it burned, the couple in question visited often: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Senator_(tree) ) or unusual metals (a tungsten ring due to the "unbreakable" qualities, etc.). One fellow I know actually used a geode he and his lady found on a vacation, had a chunk of it polished, and put into a gold setting and it came out not only lovely, but also a conversation starter she boasts about frequently. The only piece of jewelry I owned, a simple gunmetal band, ended up being my engagement ring as I wanted to give my wife the one object I treasured in that way. Despite the silly size difference she keeps it on a pendant every day, and we have custom bands we bought locally for our wedding rings.
Whatever you choose to do, remember in this modern day and age the gold & diamond ring no longer serves as a bride price and (even if it did) your bride couldn't sell it back for even a tiny fraction of what you will buy it for. Diamond stores will try and pressure you into a traditional idea based around the concept that without a diamond there is no marriage, when in reality it should be more about you and your love's relationship than the object you use to propose. If the diamond is important to your values, go all in. Just make sure that's the reason and not because "He went to Jared" mentality is driving your decision-making.
Yelp is probably a decent place to start, wedding forums will also generally have jeweler reviews
If you get anything, it will almost be certainly uncut and non-clear, with a high potential for flaws. But it will also be a much more unique experience than craigslist, ebay, zales, etc.
I went with family diamonds for my wife's ring. My mother had a 1/4 k diamond with two smaller diamonds that she gave me with some misc smaller diamonds and gold which I sold to mount the three I wanted in a custom setting.
While I was looking for inspiration, I checked out a lot of antique malls (where multiple vendors set up "display booths" so to speak with various levels and prices of jewelry from personal collections and estate sales.
I'm not going to lie to you Marge, their prices are inflated because its "vintage" but you can bring a jeweler with you to verify the authenticity and most of them have a counter up front with estate sale diamond rings dating as far back as your wallet allows.
did you know Etsy has a stupidly large variety of diamond/engagement ring sellers now?
as for the "ethics" debate, believe me, my unspecified other person and i have had the debate quite a bit. she wants a diamond because of its enduring properties and the "sparkliness" that doesn't happen with other gems, but does not want to contribute to the horribleness of the market. i'm pretty much of the same opinion, but didn't know how flawed (heh) the Kimberley process and "international norms" can be. at least not until now.
in any event, a vintage, already used diamond seems to be the way to go. thanks for the input everyone! i think this can be closed.
steam | Dokkan: 868846562