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I would stop paying for college and start using that money to get a divorce lawyer. The sad truth is, relationships can only be saved if both parties want to save them. It sounds like she's completely done and has been for a while. You need to prepare your defenses so you can still get to see your kids.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
You're going to get a ton of guff on here about the keylogger as a violation of trust, but I'll leave that to others because it will be bet into the ground over and over and over again.
A couple things:
1) It's over. She obviously doesn't want to be with you any longer. You feel like you've done everything to fix the issues she brought up, but it's not working because those were likely never the real issues (or if they were they were not the underlying issues). The fact that she brought up sex — and you claim you are avidly trying to have it with her — makes me think that she's with someone else.
2) You need to get a plan of attack for getting a divorce and maintaining at least equal visitation with your children.
3) You need to stop paying for her school. That's her responsibility from here on out.
4) Get your shit together financially as best you can. Figure out a budget and how you can either A) ditch the house and split any profit or buy the house. Regardless of whose name it is in, it will likely be considered communal property in any divorce proceeding.
Basically, if she's not willing to take any action to save your marriage, it is over. You just need to come to grips with that and figure out how you can protect yourself and your kids from here on out.
Sorry, I've been there. I didn't want my divorce. I tried and tried to fix problems. But, in the end, it was never about those problems, it was about underlying things and those problems were really the scapegoats to try to pin the blame on me for a situation that was equally our fault (we married too young).
This took you entirely by surprise, but it's something she's been mauling over, thinking about, probably obsessing over, for months, if not years. You say she seems like a completely different person, it's probably because those thoughts have completely changed how she views you and therefore how she interacts with you. She should have been communicating this from the beginning so you could have been working on whatever it was that needed fixing, but it seems like the good ship "Communication" set sail a long time ago, at least on her end.
I wish I could give you some more uplifting advice, but the moment your relationship needs a key logger it's time to start preparing for the end. And the fact that she refuses to try counseling means she doesn't even want to bother.
I hope someone else can offer more uplifting advice though. Sorry again man.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
In fact I think the general legal related advice of stop posting now, erase all previous mentions and consult a lawyer apply here. I'm very sorry man. I can't pretend to understand the circumstances you were in but it's the law's judgement you need to be worrying about now. Not internet strangers.
In fact I think the general legal related advice of stop posting now, erase all previous mentions and consult a lawyer apply here. I'm very sorry man. I can't pretend to understand the circumstances you were in but it's the law's judgement you need to be worrying about now. Not internet strangers.
Depending on the state, there may not be anything illegal about installing software on your own computer to log keys.
In fact I think the general illegal activity advice of stop posting now, erase all previous mentions and consult a lawyer apply here. I'm very sorry man. I can't pretend to understand the circumstances you were in but it's the law's judgement you need to be worrying about now. Not internet strangers.
Key logging is not strictly illegal in a spouse v spouse situation. It's a legal gray area. This cnet article, which I found in 2 seconds of googling, outlines a few different cases where it has been brought up and apparently different courts have ruled differently. It's not cut and dry but it certainly is not helping the OP in any way.
On the moral side of things I think you need to make some attitude adjustments right now if you have any hope of salvaging this marriage. You can't enter the conversation like nothing is really wrong and she's making shit up. Like it or not she is not happy, and that has to be addressed. Starting with a real hard look at where you maybe have fucked up. We only get your side of the story, so I can't tell you where that might be, but the key logger thing alone tells me that you aren't 100% on the up and up. Spying on someone is never the answer. End of story. If you feel like that's necessary then you aren't in a good relationship and should either be making it better so you don't feel it's necessary, or getting the fuck out.
Once you've come to terms with some of your own culpability, then you can go to her and try to work on things together. And before you respond with all the amazing shit you've done and all of the nothings that she has, I believe you but sometimes there are deeper issues. People will sometimes make up shit to be mad about because they are too afraid to bring up what's really bothering them. I can only give you this advice, don't agree to anything that you can't live with in the long term. Like doing 90% of the housework. If that's unfair to you don't agree to it. Also, try and understand her position as best you can. Really try and understand if there's any underlying issues that she has that are making her frustrated and more likely to lash out about superficial issues. Lastly, and most depressingly, prepare for the fact that she might have already made up her mind. Even if she is 100% wrong about you, if she isn't interested in working things out you can't force her back into a healthy relationship.
In my personal opinion things don't seem like they are in a very good place right now. This seems like one of those situations where a trial separation (rather than a divorce) might be the best course of action to give you and her time to figure out what you really want.
Jebus314 on
"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
She's stringing you along long enough for you to pay for her school and then she can just move on. Stop paying for her school, get a lawyer if you need to (may not depending on how she's going to be about kids/stuff), and come to grips with it. You've done the ping-pong thing between she's leaving and she's coming back a couple times now. The game is over.
fyi, that was installed only ONLY after months of lies and the claim that she was taking our children. It has long since been removed and this is the last I will bring it up. Imagine not knowing where your children are. Imagine they have been taken against your will. That was my frame of mind.
That's called kidnapping. It's illegal. So, had she done it, you could have gotten the police involved. You're never going to be the majority of people on here to say it's okay to install spyware or break into someone's phone. You may as well stop trying to justify it and instead move onto the other pertinent responses as they come in.
It seems like you have two issues here, your relationship with your wife, and your relationship with your children. Your relationship with your wife is clearly over. But where do you want your relationship with your children to go?
Your wife cannot just leave with the children and not give you access, unless you let her. If you do want joint custody, you probably need a lawyer. You will of course have to pay child support.
she did it. the police said I could do nothing because they were with their mother. they also told me I could in theory do the same. which seems ludicrous and I'll never do it.
Either the police were idiots or you misinterpreted them. It would be illegal for either of you to simply grab the children and leave.
also, we're in a nasty place where neither of us has money for daycare so no matter who gets the kids, there won't be money enough for the care of them.
The house is less than worthless and we have no assets or savings.
Go bankrupt if you have only debt and no assets or savings.
As for daycare, if she is going to live with family she might be planning to get relative to watch the kids. Could your mother do the same for you?
Yeah, you probably need to try to find a lawyer pronto. There should be resources online to find someone willing to work pro bono if you can't afford it.
The longer you wait, the worse your deal is going to be. Assuming you're in the US, it is (statistically) very difficult for the husband to keep primary custody of the children, but without it you'll be paying alimony + child support, which it doesn't sound like you can afford.
Police are generally loathe to intervene in family disputes like that (unless you were already separated and she, like, broke into your house to get the kids). In your situation, you'd probably have to get an order from a judge before the police acted.
I want to tell you to hang in there, but I think you're hanging on to something that is probably not worth saving at this point. I won't deny that you loved your wife, or even that you still might in some form. You clearly don't like who your wife is now, and she doesn't like you. Is it worth saving? I don't know. I probably wouldn't try. Having to let go is hard, but sometimes necessary and sometimes doing so is out of your control. She has made up things she believes about you (even if they are or are not true), and she has fundamentally shifted how she views you as a person.
I'm sorry, though, for what it's worth. It sucks.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I want to tell you to hang in there, but I think you're hanging on to something that is probably not worth saving at this point. I won't deny that you loved your wife, or even that you still might in some form. You clearly don't like who your wife is now, and she doesn't like you. Is it worth saving? I don't know. I probably wouldn't try. Having to let go is hard, but sometimes necessary and sometimes doing so is out of your control. She has made up things she believes about you (even if they are or are not true), and she has fundamentally shifted how she views you as a person.
I'm sorry, though, for what it's worth. It sucks.
Also, especially on these forums, it's best to lead with the most harsh advice. It is very hard for most people to take that leap of walking away, but sometimes it really is the best option. That being said, none of us are actually there. Only the OP can really know if there is something worth saving. All anyone here is saying is to be realistic with yourself. Does she show any signs of trying to make this work or she doing nothing while simultaneously blaming you for everything?
Like I said before, you need to sit down by yourself and decide what you are and are not ok with. Then you need to sit down with her and find out what she wants and why she feels the way she does. If she seems very interested in trying to work things out but has some issues with you, and if those issues seem like things you are ok with working on, then you know what to do next. But don't lie to yourself. Be realistic about how those conversations play out, and prepare yourself.
Jebus314 on
"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
+1
ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, ModeratorMod Emeritus
Get a lawyer yesterday. If your parents were willing to loan you the money to help her go to school, they will be willing to help you get a lawyer unless they like her better than you. Getting a lawyer now could mean the difference between joint custody and never seeing your kids again.
From what you're telling us, she's not going to want to work it out. I can't claim to know why, but honestly I think you guys are done. Get a lawyer. Get one, let him do his job, and make sure you get the kind of custody agreement you're happy with. Failing to do so will cost you infinitely more down the line in ways you can't even imagine now. It is the only responsible advice you will get at this point.
And yeah, you probably want to stop posting about it.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
Real quick before it closes. Just remember that a divorce is a terrible thing, and you may need to learn from mistakes you've made during your marriage to have another fulfilling relationship in the future, but it doesn't mean you're a failure. It's easy to get down on yourself and blame yourself. It's better to give it some time, reflect on what things about yourself you feel need to be changed, and then go about using this terrible life experience to become a better person.
I gotta say, all these responses have me pretty terrified. I was kind of hoping for something like 'hang in there, it'll get better'
Dude - the trust is so far gone that you resorted to spying on your SO. There is no relationship anymore, and nothing to hang onto. I am very sorry that this has happened. I would bet dollars to donuts that she is seeing someone else.
Get a lawyer. I don't doubt that your (ex) wife is going to be in your thoughts for a quite a while, but your actions need to be solely aimed at your children right now. That means lawyering up.
Look around for someone who will do pro bono work.
Real quick before it closes. Just remember that a divorce is a terrible thing, and you may need to learn from mistakes you've made during your marriage to have another fulfilling relationship in the future, but it doesn't mean you're a failure. It's easy to get down on yourself and blame yourself. It's better to give it some time, reflect on what things about yourself you feel need to be changed, and then go about using this terrible life experience to become a better person.
Pretty much the only thing that keeps me from breaking down is the fact that I'll be able to honestly tell my children that I did everything I could think of to save our marriage.
Kids are weird. When they're kids, they want to have a happy family.
When they're older, they want you to be happy. Being in something that isn't going to work is more harmful than helpful to your children.
Think of it like this. If you're happy, you don't fight. If either of the parents isn't happy, they will fight.
And yell.
Imagine what this does to a kid.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Posts
I would stop paying for college and start using that money to get a divorce lawyer. The sad truth is, relationships can only be saved if both parties want to save them. It sounds like she's completely done and has been for a while. You need to prepare your defenses so you can still get to see your kids.
A couple things:
1) It's over. She obviously doesn't want to be with you any longer. You feel like you've done everything to fix the issues she brought up, but it's not working because those were likely never the real issues (or if they were they were not the underlying issues). The fact that she brought up sex — and you claim you are avidly trying to have it with her — makes me think that she's with someone else.
2) You need to get a plan of attack for getting a divorce and maintaining at least equal visitation with your children.
3) You need to stop paying for her school. That's her responsibility from here on out.
4) Get your shit together financially as best you can. Figure out a budget and how you can either A) ditch the house and split any profit or
Basically, if she's not willing to take any action to save your marriage, it is over. You just need to come to grips with that and figure out how you can protect yourself and your kids from here on out.
Sorry, I've been there. I didn't want my divorce. I tried and tried to fix problems. But, in the end, it was never about those problems, it was about underlying things and those problems were really the scapegoats to try to pin the blame on me for a situation that was equally our fault (we married too young).
This took you entirely by surprise, but it's something she's been mauling over, thinking about, probably obsessing over, for months, if not years. You say she seems like a completely different person, it's probably because those thoughts have completely changed how she views you and therefore how she interacts with you. She should have been communicating this from the beginning so you could have been working on whatever it was that needed fixing, but it seems like the good ship "Communication" set sail a long time ago, at least on her end.
I wish I could give you some more uplifting advice, but the moment your relationship needs a key logger it's time to start preparing for the end. And the fact that she refuses to try counseling means she doesn't even want to bother.
I hope someone else can offer more uplifting advice though. Sorry again man.
Depending on the state, there may not be anything illegal about installing software on your own computer to log keys.
Key logging is not strictly illegal in a spouse v spouse situation. It's a legal gray area. This cnet article, which I found in 2 seconds of googling, outlines a few different cases where it has been brought up and apparently different courts have ruled differently. It's not cut and dry but it certainly is not helping the OP in any way.
On the moral side of things I think you need to make some attitude adjustments right now if you have any hope of salvaging this marriage. You can't enter the conversation like nothing is really wrong and she's making shit up. Like it or not she is not happy, and that has to be addressed. Starting with a real hard look at where you maybe have fucked up. We only get your side of the story, so I can't tell you where that might be, but the key logger thing alone tells me that you aren't 100% on the up and up. Spying on someone is never the answer. End of story. If you feel like that's necessary then you aren't in a good relationship and should either be making it better so you don't feel it's necessary, or getting the fuck out.
Once you've come to terms with some of your own culpability, then you can go to her and try to work on things together. And before you respond with all the amazing shit you've done and all of the nothings that she has, I believe you but sometimes there are deeper issues. People will sometimes make up shit to be mad about because they are too afraid to bring up what's really bothering them. I can only give you this advice, don't agree to anything that you can't live with in the long term. Like doing 90% of the housework. If that's unfair to you don't agree to it. Also, try and understand her position as best you can. Really try and understand if there's any underlying issues that she has that are making her frustrated and more likely to lash out about superficial issues. Lastly, and most depressingly, prepare for the fact that she might have already made up her mind. Even if she is 100% wrong about you, if she isn't interested in working things out you can't force her back into a healthy relationship.
In my personal opinion things don't seem like they are in a very good place right now. This seems like one of those situations where a trial separation (rather than a divorce) might be the best course of action to give you and her time to figure out what you really want.
That's called kidnapping. It's illegal. So, had she done it, you could have gotten the police involved. You're never going to be the majority of people on here to say it's okay to install spyware or break into someone's phone. You may as well stop trying to justify it and instead move onto the other pertinent responses as they come in.
Your wife cannot just leave with the children and not give you access, unless you let her. If you do want joint custody, you probably need a lawyer. You will of course have to pay child support.
Either the police were idiots or you misinterpreted them. It would be illegal for either of you to simply grab the children and leave.
Nope. Get legal advice, you are clearly confused on the law.
Go bankrupt if you have only debt and no assets or savings.
As for daycare, if she is going to live with family she might be planning to get relative to watch the kids. Could your mother do the same for you?
The longer you wait, the worse your deal is going to be. Assuming you're in the US, it is (statistically) very difficult for the husband to keep primary custody of the children, but without it you'll be paying alimony + child support, which it doesn't sound like you can afford.
I want to tell you to hang in there, but I think you're hanging on to something that is probably not worth saving at this point. I won't deny that you loved your wife, or even that you still might in some form. You clearly don't like who your wife is now, and she doesn't like you. Is it worth saving? I don't know. I probably wouldn't try. Having to let go is hard, but sometimes necessary and sometimes doing so is out of your control. She has made up things she believes about you (even if they are or are not true), and she has fundamentally shifted how she views you as a person.
I'm sorry, though, for what it's worth. It sucks.
Also, especially on these forums, it's best to lead with the most harsh advice. It is very hard for most people to take that leap of walking away, but sometimes it really is the best option. That being said, none of us are actually there. Only the OP can really know if there is something worth saving. All anyone here is saying is to be realistic with yourself. Does she show any signs of trying to make this work or she doing nothing while simultaneously blaming you for everything?
Like I said before, you need to sit down by yourself and decide what you are and are not ok with. Then you need to sit down with her and find out what she wants and why she feels the way she does. If she seems very interested in trying to work things out but has some issues with you, and if those issues seem like things you are ok with working on, then you know what to do next. But don't lie to yourself. Be realistic about how those conversations play out, and prepare yourself.
From what you're telling us, she's not going to want to work it out. I can't claim to know why, but honestly I think you guys are done. Get a lawyer. Get one, let him do his job, and make sure you get the kind of custody agreement you're happy with. Failing to do so will cost you infinitely more down the line in ways you can't even imagine now. It is the only responsible advice you will get at this point.
And yeah, you probably want to stop posting about it.
They told you wrong. Get better information. Do you want shared custody or do you think it is more in your children's interest to be with your wife?
Do not let the status quo be her 3 states over, and you haveing to fight her for visitation.
Also there is an advantage to having a lawyer and serving her first, but seriously get one. DO IT NOW.
Work an extra job if you have to, strip at a sleezy club if you need too, but the one thing more costly than hiring a lawyer is not hiring a lawyer.
Personal failings are really hard to face.
So cars, houses, anything.
Dude - the trust is so far gone that you resorted to spying on your SO. There is no relationship anymore, and nothing to hang onto. I am very sorry that this has happened. I would bet dollars to donuts that she is seeing someone else.
Get a lawyer. I don't doubt that your (ex) wife is going to be in your thoughts for a quite a while, but your actions need to be solely aimed at your children right now. That means lawyering up.
Look around for someone who will do pro bono work.
Kids are weird. When they're kids, they want to have a happy family.
When they're older, they want you to be happy. Being in something that isn't going to work is more harmful than helpful to your children.
Think of it like this. If you're happy, you don't fight. If either of the parents isn't happy, they will fight.
And yell.
Imagine what this does to a kid.