The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
The DC/Marvel Live Action Thread: GotG Aug 1st
Quid
Definitely not a bananaRegistered User regular
Definitely not a bananaRegistered User regular
Decades ago a publisher started making comics about these guys:
The universe was kind of patchy at first but the characters had this sort of concrete presence. They were more symbols than actual people and would often represent a clashing of ideals rather than just good guys stopping some robbers.
A little bit after that another publisher started making comics about these guys:
Overall it was much more tightly integrated with characters coexisting very early on in cities people recognized. The characters were generally also more down to earth. They could be petty, had vices and insecurities, bickered with each other, etc.
Which makes the current state of affairs something of a repeat of history. Here's the current situation for both universes:
Marvel:
Marvel Studios: Currently the big kid on the block Marvel Studios is dominating the super hero movie scene with an integrated film universe the likes of which have never been attempted before. And while their films do vary in quality they've all received generally positive reviews. No character is too obscure or concept too crazy so long as a quality movie can be created and they've proven that they can take relative unknowns and print money so long as the movie is good. While DC is currently fretting over who's popular enough to make a film about, Marvel currently has two respective movies in production about a talking raccoon and a man whose power is he can shrink down to the size of an ant. And they will be so much fun. Upcoming films include Captain America: The Winter Soldier in April and Guardians of the Galaxy in August.
In addition to the movies Marvel Studios also has a couple other live action offerings. A TV show currently airing called Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. that occupies the same universe as the movies and makes references to their events. It has its ups and downs but also plenty of potential. They also have separate mini series planned for Luke Cage, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Iron Fist, and all four as The Defenders to appear directly on Netflix.
However due to some license deals made way back when Marvel Studios aren't the only people making Marvel movies. Which brings us to these guys:
Sony: Sony currently has the live action rights to Spiderman and company. They've put out multiple Spiderman movies with mixed results. The first trilogy started off strong and ended miserably. They've since rebooted the story with a Spiderman many agree is truer to the comics and altogether more enjoyable. The first movie has been well received and the next is expected in May of this year.
Fox: Fox currently holds the rights to everything X-Men and Fantastic Four related. With X-Men they've also had mixed results somewhat mirroring Sony's success and failure though seem to be getting a handle on it with their most recent offerings, X-Men: First Class and The Wolverine both receiving fairly positive reviews. X-Men: Days of Future Past is also out in May with various other movies at different stages of planning and a shared universe akin to Marvel Studios'.
Universal Pictures: Wait what? Namor? Do they know they have Namor?
DC:
Warner Brothers: Despite arguably having better name recognition for their heroes, DC hasn't been doing as hot. Where Marvel Studios is all funny quips and zooming around, DC trends towards gritty and dour. Which isn't necessarily bad but they're having trouble making it work consistently. They're also hesitant to make movies about anyone not Batman or Superman and their two recent attempts, Jonah Hex and Green Lantern, failed miserably. Even their recently rebooted Superman movie was mediocre. Their one major success was Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy. However all of these exist in their own separate universes. The only upcoming films in production is a sequel to Man of Steel potentially titled Superman vs Batman with the third movie expected to be The Justice League. Anything else remains in planning.
On the television front things look better. Currently airing on The CW is Arrow, a series detailing the adventures of The Green Arrow. While it does suffer a little from what I've dubbed The CW effect (Everyone is ridiculously pretty and relationship drama is often needlessly manufactured) the series has been extremely well received. The first season is currently available on Netflix if you want to check it out. (You should.) It's also the jumping board for a new series about the Flash which still has a yet to be determined air date. Both will coexist but so far are unrelated to the DC movies.
---
Rules for this thread:
This is solely about live action super heroes. Obviously there will be some discussion overlap regarding other mediums but it should only be in relation to the thread topic. If you want to talk about the cartoons we have an animation thread. If you want to talk about just the comics or want comic suggestions, there's an entire sub forum for that. If you want to talk about how Superman is the most boringest boring guy who bored up Bored town that's cool too so long as it's related to a discussion about Superman's movies.
While this is a catch all for all the live action stuff if there's a separate thread for a specific movie or show try to keep discussion over there. This is to keep the thread from moving too fast after something has just been released, to avoid spoilers, and allow for more discussion along the lines of speculation and general criticism of older stuff that wouldn't warrant its own thread. There are currently threads for S.H.I.E.L.D. and Arrow.
Spoilers: Don't be a dick. Mind your spoilers and definitely spoiler any current season television, recent movies (let's say within the last year), or verified future plot points.
Trailers/Pics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82RKQPgeYRs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQS7JkQmlx8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbp3Ra3Yp74
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK2zYHWDZKo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqv6hlXKU4k
The universe was kind of patchy at first but the characters had this sort of concrete presence. They were more symbols than actual people and would often represent a clashing of ideals rather than just good guys stopping some robbers.
A little bit after that another publisher started making comics about these guys:
Overall it was much more tightly integrated with characters coexisting very early on in cities people recognized. The characters were generally also more down to earth. They could be petty, had vices and insecurities, bickered with each other, etc.
Which makes the current state of affairs something of a repeat of history. Here's the current situation for both universes:
Marvel:
Marvel Studios: Currently the big kid on the block Marvel Studios is dominating the super hero movie scene with an integrated film universe the likes of which have never been attempted before. And while their films do vary in quality they've all received generally positive reviews. No character is too obscure or concept too crazy so long as a quality movie can be created and they've proven that they can take relative unknowns and print money so long as the movie is good. While DC is currently fretting over who's popular enough to make a film about, Marvel currently has two respective movies in production about a talking raccoon and a man whose power is he can shrink down to the size of an ant. And they will be so much fun. Upcoming films include Captain America: The Winter Soldier in April and Guardians of the Galaxy in August.
In addition to the movies Marvel Studios also has a couple other live action offerings. A TV show currently airing called Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. that occupies the same universe as the movies and makes references to their events. It has its ups and downs but also plenty of potential. They also have separate mini series planned for Luke Cage, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Iron Fist, and all four as The Defenders to appear directly on Netflix.
However due to some license deals made way back when Marvel Studios aren't the only people making Marvel movies. Which brings us to these guys:
Sony: Sony currently has the live action rights to Spiderman and company. They've put out multiple Spiderman movies with mixed results. The first trilogy started off strong and ended miserably. They've since rebooted the story with a Spiderman many agree is truer to the comics and altogether more enjoyable. The first movie has been well received and the next is expected in May of this year.
Fox: Fox currently holds the rights to everything X-Men and Fantastic Four related. With X-Men they've also had mixed results somewhat mirroring Sony's success and failure though seem to be getting a handle on it with their most recent offerings, X-Men: First Class and The Wolverine both receiving fairly positive reviews. X-Men: Days of Future Past is also out in May with various other movies at different stages of planning and a shared universe akin to Marvel Studios'.
Universal Pictures: Wait what? Namor? Do they know they have Namor?
DC:
Warner Brothers: Despite arguably having better name recognition for their heroes, DC hasn't been doing as hot. Where Marvel Studios is all funny quips and zooming around, DC trends towards gritty and dour. Which isn't necessarily bad but they're having trouble making it work consistently. They're also hesitant to make movies about anyone not Batman or Superman and their two recent attempts, Jonah Hex and Green Lantern, failed miserably. Even their recently rebooted Superman movie was mediocre. Their one major success was Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy. However all of these exist in their own separate universes. The only upcoming films in production is a sequel to Man of Steel potentially titled Superman vs Batman with the third movie expected to be The Justice League. Anything else remains in planning.
On the television front things look better. Currently airing on The CW is Arrow, a series detailing the adventures of The Green Arrow. While it does suffer a little from what I've dubbed The CW effect (Everyone is ridiculously pretty and relationship drama is often needlessly manufactured) the series has been extremely well received. The first season is currently available on Netflix if you want to check it out. (You should.) It's also the jumping board for a new series about the Flash which still has a yet to be determined air date. Both will coexist but so far are unrelated to the DC movies.
---
Rules for this thread:
This is solely about live action super heroes. Obviously there will be some discussion overlap regarding other mediums but it should only be in relation to the thread topic. If you want to talk about the cartoons we have an animation thread. If you want to talk about just the comics or want comic suggestions, there's an entire sub forum for that. If you want to talk about how Superman is the most boringest boring guy who bored up Bored town that's cool too so long as it's related to a discussion about Superman's movies.
While this is a catch all for all the live action stuff if there's a separate thread for a specific movie or show try to keep discussion over there. This is to keep the thread from moving too fast after something has just been released, to avoid spoilers, and allow for more discussion along the lines of speculation and general criticism of older stuff that wouldn't warrant its own thread. There are currently threads for S.H.I.E.L.D. and Arrow.
Spoilers: Don't be a dick. Mind your spoilers and definitely spoiler any current season television, recent movies (let's say within the last year), or verified future plot points.
Trailers/Pics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82RKQPgeYRshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQS7JkQmlx8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbp3Ra3Yp74http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK2zYHWDZKohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqv6hlXKU4k Quid on
+3
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
Man of Steel spoilers:
Man if Steel:
But also I'm way excited for Batfleck.
Might I suggest changing that "and" to "as"? The Defenders from Marvel was a group of Doc Strange, Namor, Hulk and Silver Surfer. It was weird, a sort of team up book for chronic non-joiners. While I am happy to see the Netflix stuff I am mildly annoyed they used that name, even if it is more appropriate for the previous group.
Fake Edit: Luke Cage was actually a member for a little while. Weird.
But point taken.
Should have just used the Heroes for Hire name. I'm hoping we get Misty Knight (and Coleen Wing) somehow as well. The world needs more black ladies with afros and bionic arms.
I definitely enjoy the characters they chose more than the actual defenders though. I loved the Immortal Iron Fist, Daredevil has consistently had some of the best creative teams in Marvel comics, and I really enjoyed Alias as well.
My issue is that
The question of whether or not it's okay to kill a villain to save an innocent is a very basic moral question, especially in that genre, and Man of Steel presents it as bluntly and artlessly as possible. It doesn't show that this is a morally challenging scenario for the character (or for the audience), it doesn't derive much drama from the buildup to the decision or the decision itself or even present the challenge in an interesting way, and it doesn't dwell on the outcome of the decision or even acknowledge that there was anything meaningful about the outcome.
Instead, the film arranges for Superman to hold Zod by the head, and while that's happening Zod decides to slooowwwlllyyy point his heat vision at a family, as if it takes a lot of effort for him to aim his eyes at people who are clearly within his line of sight. Meanwhile, Superman doesn't think to fly himself and Zod out of the building. After the spectacle of the fight beforehand in which both characters seem unstoppable, the scene feels like an afterthought that's slowed down the story and imposed a limits on the characters just to create a crude dilemma that otherwise wouldn't work. In short, it's lazy writing.
Superman's feelings towards killing haven't been well-established by that point either, so the ethical calculus required for him to cross that line, if there even is a line for him, is unknown. Consequently, when Superman kills Zod it feels like he did so just because a lazy scenario forced him to, not because the story or the characterization truly demanded it. The writers made Superman kill Zod, but they didn't make the argument for why Superman would kill Zod, and that's why the scene is so hard to accept.
If you ask me, though, it'd have been pretty easy to fix the scene. When Zod starts to point his heat vision at the family, have Superman cover Zod's eyes with one of his hands to block the attack. Then have Zod give his angry speech about how he'll never stop as Superman tries to hold him back, even as the skin on his hand starts to bubble and turn black under the heat. The pain Superman goes through would be a good visual representation of an internal struggle over whether or not to kill Zod, showing us both the pressure he's under and the punishment he's willing to endure to avoid killing another person. That reluctance would ring true for the character, but at the same time the tension of the situation would be palpable enough that you'd know that it was building up to something dramatic. So, by the time Superman actually does snap Zod's neck (preferably as the heat vision has nearly burned through his hand), we'd be willing to accept that outcome. As long as you lay the groundwork properly, you can make your audience accept anything.
But the writers didn't do that. Instead they thought simply having Superman kill someone was an interesting enough situation. However, it wasn't the act of killing that they should have focused on, but rather the necessary build-up to it, the fall-out of it, and how they could use a shocking, uncharacteristic scene to nonetheless faithfully represent their character.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
it's not to say that the setup was ideal - the moral choice could have been clarified and made more significant. the straight-ahead "heat vision" thing wasn't mechanically obvious (though to be fair i don't know that it's been established that heat-vision can be shot out at off-angles either).
i do appreciate that they got away from the plot mechanic where superman subverts a moral dilemma - defusing the bomb AND saving lois on the other side of the world - by use of his superpowers or his super-foresight. certainly his desire to attempt engineer these moral win-win situations in order to avoid making difficult moral choices is a key to the character, but it doesn't mean that he always has to succeed. in fact a future superman outing based on this reboot could feature this newly-minted superman's regret over the zod encounter informing this aspect of his character.
And like you said, the character's relentless desire to engineer win-win situations is key to the character, but we didn't see him do that in the film. We don't see how much he's willing to sacrifice in order to preserve life, even the life of someone like Zod. Soon after the problem is presented to him, he simply makes the choice to kill. Instead of trying and failing to find a nonfatal way to deal with the problem, past the point of reason, he just doesn't try. That, more so than even the decision to kill, goes against his fundamental character.
Finally, I don't expect regret over the Zod encounter to inform the character in the future. He walks it off pretty fast, kissing Lois soon after and then cheerfully toying with that guy from the military moments later. If this event was going to be a big part of the character, then you'd expect it to have a more noticeable impact in the film where it occurs instead of being swiftly forgotten.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I agree they needed to spend more time on the aftermath for the emotion to sink in, the ending should have felt like a pyrric victory not a clean cut happy event and they needed to explore how people felt about Metropolis being destroyed.
It's easy to think of situations where Superman would have to kill someone. What's hard, but necessary, is writing those situations in a way that reinforces rather than puts aside the character's moral fibre by showing how far he'll go before taking that last step. Man of Steel doesn't do that, and so it falls short.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
did daredevil go back? I want a good daredevil movie so badly.
also that guardians of the galaxy picture has me all hot and bothered.
Yes. Marvel isn't going to make a movie any time soon, will a tv show on Netflix be acceptable?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
does it establish this?
I actually think the problem with the way they handled him killing zod is that this superman doesn't have all the totally-against-killing backstory that previous versions of superman do; most of the movie is all about how clark deals with the emotional reality of being superman, but why he should feel so conflicted about killing somebody who is 1) a physical equal and 2) is trying to kill him is never really established. That's why his despair at killing zod feels so empty.
I don't really buy this whole 'killing is against his character' business though. That's true for a lot of versions of superman, but this is a different thing. Like the nolan batman films, they can do different stuff with the characters if they want
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Which is kinda sad cause someone down in TV land actually knows what they're doing with these properties and seeing some DC stuff on the big screen that's equivalent to Marvel's offerings would be fantastic.
I mean, every several years, we get a Superman show. For different reasons, they are all worth checking out.
Plus Arrow is hugely popular. They are getting a Flash show together. That's not even to mention their animation studio for shows and/or movies.
Except for The Batman or Bird's of Prey...they both sucked.
Nintendo Network ID - Brainiac_8
PSN - Brainiac_8
Steam - http://steamcommunity.com/id/BRAINIAC8/
Add me!
It was Smallville. Hardly DC's greatest movement in television. I'll be glad once we get a Superman tv show like Arrow. I did like the later seasons but it still sucked.
For me, it wasn't so much that
It was more the whole attitude of the movie towards death and destruction in general. Superman is throwing Zod through buildings with a death toll in the presumed thousands, lays waste to Smallville with barely a thought for any bystanders and at the end of the movie is laughing it up in the offices of the Daily Planet. And sure, widespread destruction is a feature of big, blockbuster movies, but when it's actually caused by the protagonist and the movie doesn't care because hey, look, isn't this shot of a building falling down awesome it becomes obnoxiously dumb. Aliens wiped out a fair chunk of NYC in the Avengers movie, but I never felt like the team wasn't trying to save people.
Hahaha let's go to a baseball game oh wait all the players are dead and most of the people who would have been the crowd and probably the ballpark is a crater.
I've said all that before and it's probably boring if you've read it before, but I disliked Man of Steel quote a bit. Deafening, tedious, hollow and dumb.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
I'm not a good one for conversations about Smallville. Even with some of the problems the show had, it's one of my favorite versions of the character. I loved Smallville from season 1-season 10. Heck they even gave what I feel is the superior version of Doomsday (I loved the idea of Davis Bloom and him being a son created by Zod and Fiora) and the story involving the clones of the Kandorians was fantastic. Also, Erica Durance is my favorite actress to have portrayed Lois, and Rosenbaum is the best version of Lex and the best actor that has portrayed him ever.
Not to mention fantastic versions of Metallo and Brainiac.
Plus it was the first time we've seen a well done expanding of the DC universe in live action. In the ten seasons, we saw an early version of the JLA (with Impulse, Cyborg, Green Arrow, Aquaman, and Black Canary), The Justice Society, Suicide Squad, Checkmate, Legion, Supergirl, and Maxima, not to mention a pretty great version of Granny Goodness and her Furies, Desaad, and Glorious Godfrey.
I mean, yea, sometimes they whiffed in their version of characters such as Mxy and Darkseid, but overall Smallville was a show that I'm very glad to have watched from start to finish. In fact, my wife and I are watching through the series again right now.
Smallville is also the show that got my wife interested in Superheroes and specifically Superman. When we got married she didn't know anything about the character or any interest in comic related things at all. She started watching because of Tom Welling, but ultimately ended up getting interested in the DC universe and comic heroes in general because of how much she enjoyed Smallville. The show was awesome for helping ease my wife into some of the things I really enjoy.
Smallville may have been flawed at times, but it was an immense success for DC in getting Superman in the minds of the general audience, and it stayed one of WB's most watched shows until it ended in season 10.
Nintendo Network ID - Brainiac_8
PSN - Brainiac_8
Steam - http://steamcommunity.com/id/BRAINIAC8/
Add me!
They were adaptions. Hunger Games has never had movies before, Nolan's take on Batman was unprecedented in movies, Iron Man, Avengers and Thor never had movies before and Cap had made-for-video movies in the 80's and 90's that the public never saw.
They were amazing successes who were amazingly crafted, critically praised and financial blockbusters - the public only discovered who they were with those movies. The comics may have had a few adaptions in cartoons in the past yet none reached the mainstream like those movies did.
Making an adaption is slightly different from making any regular movie and it's not like any of those movies were panel to panel adaptions of their story lines, excluding Hunger Games. WB has made incredible adaptions in the past for DC, so why can't they do it now? They made an incredible Batman trilogy recently, why are they ignoring what Nolan did right with that.
So? The fan service for Avengers wasn't convincing the public that they're great movies the movies did that themselves. Iron Man 2 suffered for being tied too closely with the MCU. That's one of the biggest complaints about that movie. The movie didn't exist in a void yet they also were separate parts that succeeded on their own at the box office and reception by the critics and audience. Having fanboy nods alone didn't make them critical and financial powerhouses - that required good scripts, excellent casting, amazing special effects, charismatic characters and that the movies make sense as a whole. Avengers was a nice bonus but that movie needed them more then they needed it. Otherwise they'd have all failed on their own terms. The Hawkeye cameo from Thor wasn't what made that a success.
Which didn't stop the solo franchises from being critical and financial hits on their own terms, which was my point.
I'm really curious how you're defining new property here.
Edit: For that matter I'm not sure how it's relevant to WB doing a terrible job of making super hero movies.
Given that, I wonder if the DC movies will follow a similar trend with their villains and storylines. Lex will be a given, of course, but I can see them skipping villains like Bizarro and Braniac in favor of relatively newer ones. Let's face it, if there's a villain made for the Man of Steel version of the character, it's Doomsday.
Smallville was basically Dawson's Creek with superman
but because it's a cynical, drab, pessimistic piece of overblown David Goyer superhero-hating dogshit.
Here's what's wrong with Man of Steel in a god damn single image:
The fucking Klan in Birth of a Nation do more to save people than Superman does in Man of Steel.
This article also lays on a few other points a lot more eloquently and with less vitriol than I am spouting, probably because the author doesn't consider Superman their childhood hero and didn't get really upset about Man of Steel like I did.
Fuck that fucking movie, fuck David Goyer, fuck this stupid "franchise" DC is trying to build on Goyer's superhero-hating hackery. I love Arrow, I love Stephen Amell, but I want to scream at him to stop trying to encourage DC to link Arrow and the upcoming Flash TV series to this DC "movie universe" that's going to be nothing but cinema poison.
Okay, I got that out of my system now, I'll shut up.
Sorry.
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507
And without James Van Der Beek. And I gotta say, without the Beek, what is even the point?
Why I fear the ocean.
An actual Constaintine show could be very very good. I am rather doubtful of a major network being willing to take it where it should go though. Sounds like something that would be more at home on cable or such.