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whatever, this discussion is going nowhere. you guys are okay with superheroes, creations to represent the best of humanity, willing to stand by and let a corrupt entity like the state kill people. i'm not. whatever.
I'm not okay with superheroes being creations to represent the best of humanity.
whatever, this discussion is going nowhere. you guys are okay with superheroes, creations to represent the best of humanity, willing to stand by and let a corrupt entity like the state kill people. i'm not. whatever.
Until every superhero comic takes place in a literal Utopia, then this is going to apply to pretty much every superhero story.
Personally, I think it's a much stronger statement to show a superhero treating a condemned man like an actual human being worthy of mercy and respect than to just ignore it.
Yes but in this case Thor is a superhuman capable of ruling the planet with his godlike allies if he decided to do so.
The "well, I know better and I will show you" line of thought is what leads to the dozens of SUPERMAN IS A DICTATOR stories.
But Thor is not trying to take over the planet in this scenario
He would be trying to free one man from prison
Now, I do not think that Thor would necessarily do that as he is not that kind of guy
However, there is definitely a moral reason to do that, namely that the power which enforces the death penalty has no more inherent moral legitimacy than the power which might be used to defy it.
0
AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
edited January 2014
how do we know that he actually "deserved" that death sentence
dude's black, he might've been the victim of institutional racism and the prison industrial complex
Antimatter on
+1
AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
[Weregild (also spelled wergild, wergeld, weregeld, etc.) was a value placed on every human being and every piece of property in the Salic Code. Also known as "man price." If property was stolen, or someone was injured or killed, the guilty person would have to pay weregild as restitution to the victim's family or to the owner of the property.
how do we know that he actually "deserved" that death sentence
dude's black, he might've been the victim of institutional racism and the prison industrial complex
well the dude seemed pretty at peace with the idea that he was going to his death. Like he's saying right there to Thor. "If only I had met you before I fucked up my life."
Yes but then what stops Thor from throwing out Congress because he disagrees with their most recent bill? Or laying waste to North Korea because they're assholes?
The point is, the second Thor, or any powerful superhuman, starts ignoring our laws to do what they want to do they stop being a protector and start being a conqueror/dictator.
The whole heroic, inspiring thing about such powerful heroes is that they use their power to protect us and help us, not to change our world to fit what they personally like. They enact change through example, not action.
Thor isn't much of a viking nowadays. He has mellowed out quite a bit.
0
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited January 2014
Well. I believe that super-heroism will always operate on some foggy middle-ground when it comes to the law simply because of the vigilantism involved.
I guess you can argue that doing things that put you on the wrong side of the law even if it is for the betterment of mankind(like trying to bust corrupt cops) is part of heroism. Hell, even Captain America doesn't always fall in line with the government.
But as far as we know, the man is there legally and no foul play was involved. So I mean feelings on the death penalty aside, I really don't see why he would feel the need to go against the law in that situation.
Dragkonias on
+3
QuetziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderatormod
[Weregild (also spelled wergild, wergeld, weregeld, etc.) was a value placed on every human being and every piece of property in the Salic Code. Also known as "man price." If property was stolen, or someone was injured or killed, the guilty person would have to pay weregild as restitution to the victim's family or to the owner of the property.
Yeah, this was a system that was in place. It covered a lot, honestly, although it could get really complicated.
And, obviously, it worked in the justice system but not in the minds of men. And required money to actually function, which can be problematic for some people. So they had other forms of justice.
Look up the thing or the ting, that was their form of a trial. They decided then between outlawing and fines.
[Weregild (also spelled wergild, wergeld, weregeld, etc.) was a value placed on every human being and every piece of property in the Salic Code. Also known as "man price." If property was stolen, or someone was injured or killed, the guilty person would have to pay weregild as restitution to the victim's family or to the owner of the property.
This dude, however, was not sentenced to execution by an ancient Scandinavian court. He converted to Thorism after being in jail, for some years presumably, and at that point anything Thor would do to get him out of there (short of requesting a stay of execution which for all we know he did) would be suuuuper illegal and against everything he vows to do as protector of humanity. He saves us from threats we can't handle, not our own ignorance.
Yes but then what stops Thor from throwing out Congress because he disagrees with their most recent bill? Or laying waste to North Korea because they're assholes?
The point is, the second Thor, or any powerful superhuman, starts ignoring our laws to do what they want to do they stop being a protector and start being a conqueror/dictator.
The whole heroic, inspiring thing about such powerful heroes is that they use their power to protect us and help us, not to change our world to fit what they personally like. They enact change through example, not action.
Nothing. There is nothing to stop that other than their own moral restrictions on doing so. Just as there is nothing to stop the power of a country like the US from invading smaller states other than their own moral restrictions on doing so. There is no difference. Systems are enforced by power, and power is power, either in the form of a large state government or a fist that can shatter mountains. This doesn't mean it's right for superheroes to over-rule governments, of course. But it goes both ways!
This is why superheroes are so fascinating to me, by the way
The morality of being able to take hits from ICBMs and snap battleships in half
I never thought I'd see the day that Antimatter would argue that a blonde viking of noble birth should defy the laws of a democratic society based on his own sense of superior morality. But here we are. What is that? The Asgardian's Burden?
On another note, you guys know that there has to be a white supremacist with a Jack Kirby tattoo out there, right? There has to be.
While I think stories about that can be fantastic and super interesting, such as Squadron Supreme.
I 100% do not want The Avengers to become The Authority 2.0 because they have more power than anyone else and know better and here let us show you by getting rid of all of your armies.
+11
MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
the idea of thor, as a dude from space, giving extinct incredibly delicious space fruit as a last meal to a prisoner is one I really like
but anti is right that thor, as a powerful superhero, so compliantly letting the state kill a person is kind of fucked up?
maybe the scene would have worked better if it was someone else who would have access to delicious space fruit but would not have the power to save the guy
shouldn't Thor be more into the dude being let go and dying in glorious combat
If the dude committed a crime worthy of execution, he probably lost his chance to revel in the Halls of Valhalla anyway.
There is absolutely nothing that suggests you need to be nice to go to Valhalla, mythologically speaking
You just need to be a warrior who dies in battle
And even then, the warrior society of the Scandinavian peoples during the early medieval period is overstated
Mostly they were fishermen and woodsmen, no more warlike than other groups in the same area
In fact, current thinking is that Viking does not mean a northern raider at all, it was just a term for a piratical raider in general
This is due to there being plenty of evidence of Saxon and Frankish "Vikings"
I thought there was an honor component, but maybe I'm getting it mixed up with Klingons.
It differentiated according to place
However, you have to remember that like most pre-Christian Germanic religions, shit like most Indo-European pre-Christian religions (possible exception of the Vedic ones), Germanic Paganism (shitty term, actually, but there you go) was a religion shaped around the ruling warrior class, formed from very old mythological beliefs. They were not religions of faith, as faith does not come into it.
Hence the focus on being a warrior who dies in battle getting the best afterlife, as it were. And these religions rarely if ever included a moral impetus, because it didn't tend to suit ruling classes to have moral impetus in terms of how they act.
This is why Christianity did so well, in fact. Poor people actually had a reason to be into it.
It's also why Asatru isn't really ancient paganism but rather a distinct neopaganism, because it does tend to include a moral impetus and an ethics system.
+1
QuetziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderatormod
I never thought I'd see the day that Antimatter would argue that a blonde viking of noble birth should defy the laws of a democratic society based on his own sense of superior morality. But here we are. What is that? The Asgardian's Burden?
On another note, you guys know that there has to be a white supremacist with a Jack Kirby tattoo out there, right? There has to be.
There's actually a pretty great Marvel comic right now dealing with superheroes deciding they have the moral authority and imperative to decide what's best for everyone else and it's called New Avengers.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
+7
AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
the idea of thor, as a dude from space, giving extinct incredibly delicious space fruit as a last meal to a prisoner is one I really like
but anti is right that thor, as a powerful superhero, so compliantly letting the state kill a person is kind of fucked up?
maybe the scene would have worked better if it was someone else who would have access to delicious space fruit but would not have the power to save the guy
The Phoenix Five made the world better for a lot of people
That the Avengers came off like a bunch of sore losers who couldn't deal with the fact that they didn't just get beaten but that they were also wrong was a bit of a problem with the series for some people, and I can see why.
0
MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
That is sort of the thing you have to deal with when you have superheroes in what is ostensibly attempting to be a "real world"
Superheroes deciding that they know better than the law, no matter how bad an awful those laws might be, have big and serious ramifications
It is more complex than dressing up societal and cultural issues like cartoonish pulp villains so that they can be solved via punching
There's actually a pretty great Marvel comic right now dealing with superheroes deciding they have the moral authority and imperative to decide what's best for everyone else and it's called New Avengers.
And so far the moral of the story seems to be: You guys are dicks and this is all gonna come back to bite you in the ass
whatever, this discussion is going nowhere. you guys are okay with superheroes, creations to represent the best of humanity, willing to stand by and let a corrupt entity like the state kill people. i'm not. whatever.
the notion of superheroes letting the justice system take its course once they tie up the bad guy and leave them at the police station is perhaps one that should be re-examined
I mean I don't know about thor cause he will kill a dude but superman will not kill a dude so why should he be okay with the government killing a dude
There's actually a pretty great Marvel comic right now dealing with superheroes deciding they have the moral authority and imperative to decide what's best for everyone else and it's called New Avengers.
And so far the moral of the story seems to be: You guys are dicks and this is all gonna come back to bite you in the ass
On the other hand, they have unquestionably saved the world from total destruction at this point
I can't believe you people are actually humoring the idea that people with superpowers have the right to impose their own morality on other people. Don't you see how crazy that is? Don't you see how destructive that is? Have we learned nothing from Dune Messiah?
Posts
There is absolutely nothing that suggests you need to be nice to go to Valhalla, mythologically speaking
You just need to be a warrior who dies in battle
And even then, the warrior society of the Scandinavian peoples during the early medieval period is overstated
Mostly they were fishermen and woodsmen, no more warlike than other groups in the same area
In fact, current thinking is that Viking does not mean a northern raider at all, it was just a term for a piratical raider in general
This is due to there being plenty of evidence of Saxon and Frankish "Vikings"
I'm not okay with superheroes being creations to represent the best of humanity.
Until every superhero comic takes place in a literal Utopia, then this is going to apply to pretty much every superhero story.
Personally, I think it's a much stronger statement to show a superhero treating a condemned man like an actual human being worthy of mercy and respect than to just ignore it.
But Thor is not trying to take over the planet in this scenario
He would be trying to free one man from prison
Now, I do not think that Thor would necessarily do that as he is not that kind of guy
However, there is definitely a moral reason to do that, namely that the power which enforces the death penalty has no more inherent moral legitimacy than the power which might be used to defy it.
dude's black, he might've been the victim of institutional racism and the prison industrial complex
well the dude seemed pretty at peace with the idea that he was going to his death. Like he's saying right there to Thor. "If only I had met you before I fucked up my life."
And it is a hard one to answer without coming back to "because then they would end, probably"
The point is, the second Thor, or any powerful superhuman, starts ignoring our laws to do what they want to do they stop being a protector and start being a conqueror/dictator.
The whole heroic, inspiring thing about such powerful heroes is that they use their power to protect us and help us, not to change our world to fit what they personally like. They enact change through example, not action.
I thought there was an honor component, but maybe I'm getting it mixed up with Klingons.
I guess you can argue that doing things that put you on the wrong side of the law even if it is for the betterment of mankind(like trying to bust corrupt cops) is part of heroism. Hell, even Captain America doesn't always fall in line with the government.
But as far as we know, the man is there legally and no foul play was involved. So I mean feelings on the death penalty aside, I really don't see why he would feel the need to go against the law in that situation.
Yeah, this was a system that was in place. It covered a lot, honestly, although it could get really complicated.
And, obviously, it worked in the justice system but not in the minds of men. And required money to actually function, which can be problematic for some people. So they had other forms of justice.
Look up the thing or the ting, that was their form of a trial. They decided then between outlawing and fines.
Thor of 200 years ago sure
although even then not really because that Thor wouldnt have given a shit about anything except fighting, getting drunk, and getting laid.
Nothing. There is nothing to stop that other than their own moral restrictions on doing so. Just as there is nothing to stop the power of a country like the US from invading smaller states other than their own moral restrictions on doing so. There is no difference. Systems are enforced by power, and power is power, either in the form of a large state government or a fist that can shatter mountains. This doesn't mean it's right for superheroes to over-rule governments, of course. But it goes both ways!
This is why superheroes are so fascinating to me, by the way
The morality of being able to take hits from ICBMs and snap battleships in half
indeed, the guards are all white
On another note, you guys know that there has to be a white supremacist with a Jack Kirby tattoo out there, right? There has to be.
I 100% do not want The Avengers to become The Authority 2.0 because they have more power than anyone else and know better and here let us show you by getting rid of all of your armies.
Comic books, man.
No, of course not.
We're debating legal ramifications of theoretical actions Thor could take instead of his actions from that scene in his book. :P
There is totally horrific racism in the prison industrial complex, but those two do not correlate with one another.
Plus, as mentioned earlier, the guy seems as though he is genuinely repentant over his younger deeds which implies he actually did some serious shit.
but anti is right that thor, as a powerful superhero, so compliantly letting the state kill a person is kind of fucked up?
maybe the scene would have worked better if it was someone else who would have access to delicious space fruit but would not have the power to save the guy
It differentiated according to place
However, you have to remember that like most pre-Christian Germanic religions, shit like most Indo-European pre-Christian religions (possible exception of the Vedic ones), Germanic Paganism (shitty term, actually, but there you go) was a religion shaped around the ruling warrior class, formed from very old mythological beliefs. They were not religions of faith, as faith does not come into it.
Hence the focus on being a warrior who dies in battle getting the best afterlife, as it were. And these religions rarely if ever included a moral impetus, because it didn't tend to suit ruling classes to have moral impetus in terms of how they act.
This is why Christianity did so well, in fact. Poor people actually had a reason to be into it.
It's also why Asatru isn't really ancient paganism but rather a distinct neopaganism, because it does tend to include a moral impetus and an ethics system.
I'm hoping it's Devil Dinosaur
i agree with the bit about the space fruit
The Phoenix Five made the world better for a lot of people
That the Avengers came off like a bunch of sore losers who couldn't deal with the fact that they didn't just get beaten but that they were also wrong was a bit of a problem with the series for some people, and I can see why.
Superheroes deciding that they know better than the law, no matter how bad an awful those laws might be, have big and serious ramifications
It is more complex than dressing up societal and cultural issues like cartoonish pulp villains so that they can be solved via punching
this discussion's over, but you're wrong
bye
I mean I don't know about thor cause he will kill a dude but superman will not kill a dude so why should he be okay with the government killing a dude
On the other hand, they have unquestionably saved the world from total destruction at this point
so it is a bit more complicated than that
I should have stopped after Dune.
This is just a scene of him doing something amazing for one of his worshippers