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[Superheroes] might have an IMAGE problem.

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Posts

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Antimatter wrote: »
    shouldn't Thor be more into the dude being let go and dying in glorious combat

    If the dude committed a crime worthy of execution, he probably lost his chance to revel in the Halls of Valhalla anyway.

    There is absolutely nothing that suggests you need to be nice to go to Valhalla, mythologically speaking

    You just need to be a warrior who dies in battle

    And even then, the warrior society of the Scandinavian peoples during the early medieval period is overstated

    Mostly they were fishermen and woodsmen, no more warlike than other groups in the same area

    In fact, current thinking is that Viking does not mean a northern raider at all, it was just a term for a piratical raider in general

    This is due to there being plenty of evidence of Saxon and Frankish "Vikings"

    Solar on
  • QuetziQuetzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Antimatter wrote: »
    whatever, this discussion is going nowhere. you guys are okay with superheroes, creations to represent the best of humanity, willing to stand by and let a corrupt entity like the state kill people. i'm not. whatever.

    I'm not okay with superheroes being creations to represent the best of humanity.

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Antimatter wrote: »
    whatever, this discussion is going nowhere. you guys are okay with superheroes, creations to represent the best of humanity, willing to stand by and let a corrupt entity like the state kill people. i'm not. whatever.

    Until every superhero comic takes place in a literal Utopia, then this is going to apply to pretty much every superhero story.

    Personally, I think it's a much stronger statement to show a superhero treating a condemned man like an actual human being worthy of mercy and respect than to just ignore it.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Yes but in this case Thor is a superhuman capable of ruling the planet with his godlike allies if he decided to do so.

    The "well, I know better and I will show you" line of thought is what leads to the dozens of SUPERMAN IS A DICTATOR stories.

    But Thor is not trying to take over the planet in this scenario

    He would be trying to free one man from prison

    Now, I do not think that Thor would necessarily do that as he is not that kind of guy

    However, there is definitely a moral reason to do that, namely that the power which enforces the death penalty has no more inherent moral legitimacy than the power which might be used to defy it.

  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    edited January 2014
    how do we know that he actually "deserved" that death sentence

    dude's black, he might've been the victim of institutional racism and the prison industrial complex

    Antimatter on
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    edited January 2014
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weregild
    [Weregild (also spelled wergild, wergeld, weregeld, etc.) was a value placed on every human being and every piece of property in the Salic Code. Also known as "man price." If property was stolen, or someone was injured or killed, the guilty person would have to pay weregild as restitution to the victim's family or to the owner of the property.

    Antimatter on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Antimatter wrote: »
    how do we know that he actually "deserved" that death sentence

    dude's black, he might've been the victim of institutional racism and the prison industrial complex

    well the dude seemed pretty at peace with the idea that he was going to his death. Like he's saying right there to Thor. "If only I had met you before I fucked up my life."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    The eternal question of the superhero story is why do they not all end up like Miracleman or Squadron Supreme

    And it is a hard one to answer without coming back to "because then they would end, probably"

    Solar on
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Yes but then what stops Thor from throwing out Congress because he disagrees with their most recent bill? Or laying waste to North Korea because they're assholes?

    The point is, the second Thor, or any powerful superhuman, starts ignoring our laws to do what they want to do they stop being a protector and start being a conqueror/dictator.

    The whole heroic, inspiring thing about such powerful heroes is that they use their power to protect us and help us, not to change our world to fit what they personally like. They enact change through example, not action.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • Penguin IncarnatePenguin Incarnate King of Kafiristan Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    I would imagine Thor doesn't feel he has the authority to defy the legal systems of civilized worlds he visits
    I don't know. As a viking that sounds exactly like the kind of thing he would do.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Cybertronian Paranormal Eliminator Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Antimatter wrote: »
    shouldn't Thor be more into the dude being let go and dying in glorious combat

    If the dude committed a crime worthy of execution, he probably lost his chance to revel in the Halls of Valhalla anyway.

    There is absolutely nothing that suggests you need to be nice to go to Valhalla, mythologically speaking

    You just need to be a warrior who dies in battle

    And even then, the warrior society of the Scandinavian peoples during the early medieval period is overstated

    Mostly they were fishermen and woodsmen, no more warlike than other groups in the same area

    In fact, current thinking is that Viking does not mean a northern raider at all, it was just a term for a piratical raider in general

    This is due to there being plenty of evidence of Saxon and Frankish "Vikings"

    I thought there was an honor component, but maybe I'm getting it mixed up with Klingons.

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Thor isn't much of a viking nowadays. He has mellowed out quite a bit.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Well. I believe that super-heroism will always operate on some foggy middle-ground when it comes to the law simply because of the vigilantism involved.

    I guess you can argue that doing things that put you on the wrong side of the law even if it is for the betterment of mankind(like trying to bust corrupt cops) is part of heroism. Hell, even Captain America doesn't always fall in line with the government.

    But as far as we know, the man is there legally and no foul play was involved. So I mean feelings on the death penalty aside, I really don't see why he would feel the need to go against the law in that situation.

    Dragkonias on
  • QuetziQuetzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Antimatter wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weregild
    [Weregild (also spelled wergild, wergeld, weregeld, etc.) was a value placed on every human being and every piece of property in the Salic Code. Also known as "man price." If property was stolen, or someone was injured or killed, the guilty person would have to pay weregild as restitution to the victim's family or to the owner of the property.

    Yeah, this was a system that was in place. It covered a lot, honestly, although it could get really complicated.

    And, obviously, it worked in the justice system but not in the minds of men. And required money to actually function, which can be problematic for some people. So they had other forms of justice.

    Look up the thing or the ting, that was their form of a trial. They decided then between outlawing and fines.

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    I would imagine Thor doesn't feel he has the authority to defy the legal systems of civilized worlds he visits
    I don't know. As a viking that sounds exactly like the kind of thing he would do.

    Thor of 200 years ago sure

    although even then not really because that Thor wouldnt have given a shit about anything except fighting, getting drunk, and getting laid.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Antimatter wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weregild
    [Weregild (also spelled wergild, wergeld, weregeld, etc.) was a value placed on every human being and every piece of property in the Salic Code. Also known as "man price." If property was stolen, or someone was injured or killed, the guilty person would have to pay weregild as restitution to the victim's family or to the owner of the property.
    This dude, however, was not sentenced to execution by an ancient Scandinavian court. He converted to Thorism after being in jail, for some years presumably, and at that point anything Thor would do to get him out of there (short of requesting a stay of execution which for all we know he did) would be suuuuper illegal and against everything he vows to do as protector of humanity. He saves us from threats we can't handle, not our own ignorance.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Yes but then what stops Thor from throwing out Congress because he disagrees with their most recent bill? Or laying waste to North Korea because they're assholes?

    The point is, the second Thor, or any powerful superhuman, starts ignoring our laws to do what they want to do they stop being a protector and start being a conqueror/dictator.

    The whole heroic, inspiring thing about such powerful heroes is that they use their power to protect us and help us, not to change our world to fit what they personally like. They enact change through example, not action.

    Nothing. There is nothing to stop that other than their own moral restrictions on doing so. Just as there is nothing to stop the power of a country like the US from invading smaller states other than their own moral restrictions on doing so. There is no difference. Systems are enforced by power, and power is power, either in the form of a large state government or a fist that can shatter mountains. This doesn't mean it's right for superheroes to over-rule governments, of course. But it goes both ways!

    This is why superheroes are so fascinating to me, by the way

    The morality of being able to take hits from ICBMs and snap battleships in half

    Solar on
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    Antimatter wrote: »
    how do we know that he actually "deserved" that death sentence

    dude's black, he might've been the victim of institutional racism and the prison industrial complex

    indeed, the guards are all white

    PNk1Ml4.png
  • Penguin IncarnatePenguin Incarnate King of Kafiristan Registered User regular
    I never thought I'd see the day that Antimatter would argue that a blonde viking of noble birth should defy the laws of a democratic society based on his own sense of superior morality. But here we are. What is that? The Asgardian's Burden?

    On another note, you guys know that there has to be a white supremacist with a Jack Kirby tattoo out there, right? There has to be.

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    While I think stories about that can be fantastic and super interesting, such as Squadron Supreme.

    I 100% do not want The Avengers to become The Authority 2.0 because they have more power than anyone else and know better and here let us show you by getting rid of all of your armies.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    See: Phoenix Five

  • Penguin IncarnatePenguin Incarnate King of Kafiristan Registered User regular
    Wait- Are you guys actually debating the legal ramifications of a scene in Thor?

  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Wait- Are you guys actually debating the legal ramifications of a scene in Thor?

    Comic books, man.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Cybertronian Paranormal Eliminator Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Wait- Are you guys actually debating the legal ramifications of a scene in Thor?

    No, of course not.

    We're debating legal ramifications of theoretical actions Thor could take instead of his actions from that scene in his book. :P

    Undead Scottsman on
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    Antimatter wrote: »
    how do we know that he actually "deserved" that death sentence

    dude's black, he might've been the victim of institutional racism and the prison industrial complex

    indeed, the guards are all white
    What do the prison guards being white have to do with his sentence?

    There is totally horrific racism in the prison industrial complex, but those two do not correlate with one another.

    Plus, as mentioned earlier, the guy seems as though he is genuinely repentant over his younger deeds which implies he actually did some serious shit.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    the idea of thor, as a dude from space, giving extinct incredibly delicious space fruit as a last meal to a prisoner is one I really like

    but anti is right that thor, as a powerful superhero, so compliantly letting the state kill a person is kind of fucked up?

    maybe the scene would have worked better if it was someone else who would have access to delicious space fruit but would not have the power to save the guy

    PNk1Ml4.png
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Antimatter wrote: »
    shouldn't Thor be more into the dude being let go and dying in glorious combat

    If the dude committed a crime worthy of execution, he probably lost his chance to revel in the Halls of Valhalla anyway.

    There is absolutely nothing that suggests you need to be nice to go to Valhalla, mythologically speaking

    You just need to be a warrior who dies in battle

    And even then, the warrior society of the Scandinavian peoples during the early medieval period is overstated

    Mostly they were fishermen and woodsmen, no more warlike than other groups in the same area

    In fact, current thinking is that Viking does not mean a northern raider at all, it was just a term for a piratical raider in general

    This is due to there being plenty of evidence of Saxon and Frankish "Vikings"

    I thought there was an honor component, but maybe I'm getting it mixed up with Klingons.

    It differentiated according to place

    However, you have to remember that like most pre-Christian Germanic religions, shit like most Indo-European pre-Christian religions (possible exception of the Vedic ones), Germanic Paganism (shitty term, actually, but there you go) was a religion shaped around the ruling warrior class, formed from very old mythological beliefs. They were not religions of faith, as faith does not come into it.

    Hence the focus on being a warrior who dies in battle getting the best afterlife, as it were. And these religions rarely if ever included a moral impetus, because it didn't tend to suit ruling classes to have moral impetus in terms of how they act.

    This is why Christianity did so well, in fact. Poor people actually had a reason to be into it.

    It's also why Asatru isn't really ancient paganism but rather a distinct neopaganism, because it does tend to include a moral impetus and an ethics system.

  • QuetziQuetzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderator mod
    I never thought I'd see the day that Antimatter would argue that a blonde viking of noble birth should defy the laws of a democratic society based on his own sense of superior morality. But here we are. What is that? The Asgardian's Burden?

    On another note, you guys know that there has to be a white supremacist with a Jack Kirby tattoo out there, right? There has to be.

    I'm hoping it's Devil Dinosaur

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    There's actually a pretty great Marvel comic right now dealing with superheroes deciding they have the moral authority and imperative to decide what's best for everyone else and it's called New Avengers.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    the idea of thor, as a dude from space, giving extinct incredibly delicious space fruit as a last meal to a prisoner is one I really like

    but anti is right that thor, as a powerful superhero, so compliantly letting the state kill a person is kind of fucked up?

    maybe the scene would have worked better if it was someone else who would have access to delicious space fruit but would not have the power to save the guy

    i agree with the bit about the space fruit

  • Penguin IncarnatePenguin Incarnate King of Kafiristan Registered User regular
    Wait- Are you guys actually debating the legal ramifications of a scene in Thor?

    No, of course not.

    We're debating legal ramifications of theoretical actions Thor could take instead of his actions from that scene in his book. :P
    Oh, sorry. Carry on.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    See: Phoenix Five

    The Phoenix Five made the world better for a lot of people

    That the Avengers came off like a bunch of sore losers who couldn't deal with the fact that they didn't just get beaten but that they were also wrong was a bit of a problem with the series for some people, and I can see why.

  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    That is sort of the thing you have to deal with when you have superheroes in what is ostensibly attempting to be a "real world"

    Superheroes deciding that they know better than the law, no matter how bad an awful those laws might be, have big and serious ramifications

    It is more complex than dressing up societal and cultural issues like cartoonish pulp villains so that they can be solved via punching

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Balefuego wrote: »
    There's actually a pretty great Marvel comic right now dealing with superheroes deciding they have the moral authority and imperative to decide what's best for everyone else and it's called New Avengers.
    And so far the moral of the story seems to be: You guys are dicks and this is all gonna come back to bite you in the ass

    CYpGAPn.png
  • THESPOOKYTHESPOOKY papa! Registered User regular
    Antimatter wrote: »
    whatever, this discussion is going nowhere. you guys are okay with superheroes, creations to represent the best of humanity, willing to stand by and let a corrupt entity like the state kill people. i'm not. whatever.

    this discussion's over, but you're wrong

    bye

    d4753b065e9d63cc25203f06160a1cd1.png
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    the notion of superheroes letting the justice system take its course once they tie up the bad guy and leave them at the police station is perhaps one that should be re-examined

    I mean I don't know about thor cause he will kill a dude but superman will not kill a dude so why should he be okay with the government killing a dude

    PNk1Ml4.png
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Balefuego wrote: »
    There's actually a pretty great Marvel comic right now dealing with superheroes deciding they have the moral authority and imperative to decide what's best for everyone else and it's called New Avengers.
    And so far the moral of the story seems to be: You guys are dicks and this is all gonna come back to bite you in the ass

    On the other hand, they have unquestionably saved the world from total destruction at this point

    so it is a bit more complicated than that

  • Penguin IncarnatePenguin Incarnate King of Kafiristan Registered User regular
    I can't believe you people are actually humoring the idea that people with superpowers have the right to impose their own morality on other people. Don't you see how crazy that is? Don't you see how destructive that is? Have we learned nothing from Dune Messiah?

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    I'll tell you what I learned from Dune Messiah:

    I should have stopped after Dune.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • TurambarTurambar Independent Registered User regular
    For all we know, Thor could be lobbying for abolishment of the death penalty in his spare time

    This is just a scene of him doing something amazing for one of his worshippers

    Steam: turamb | Origin: Turamb | 3DS: 3411-1109-4537 | NNID: Turambar | Warframe(PC): Turamb
This discussion has been closed.