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[Internet Policy] - Restricting the series of tubes

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Sinophobia is absolutely running fuckin nuts in this country

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    From what news I gather from leftish sources, there seems to be a perception that Biden's 'new' realignment focusing on China is based in Sinophobic popularism. (The idea that it is somehow new is something I don't even want to mention, but regardless, I think it should be pointed out)

    So, you know, after their foreign policy tour de force regarding Ukraine, there has been very little self reflection, it seems.

    I don't really understand what you're saying here.

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    HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    From what news I gather from leftish sources, there seems to be a perception that Biden's 'new' realignment focusing on China is based in Sinophobic popularism. (The idea that it is somehow new is something I don't even want to mention, but regardless, I think it should be pointed out)

    So, you know, after their foreign policy tour de force regarding Ukraine, there has been very little self reflection, it seems.

    It's kind of amazing how 20-30 years ago the left was trying to free Tibet and now it's "Well actually the PRC isn't that bad" with the inevitable subtext of "and if they are it's probably the fault of the US who is clearly just racist against the Chinese people and not concerned about the PRC's growing modern military and apparent territorial ambitions"

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    From what news I gather from leftish sources, there seems to be a perception that Biden's 'new' realignment focusing on China is based in Sinophobic popularism. (The idea that it is somehow new is something I don't even want to mention, but regardless, I think it should be pointed out)

    So, you know, after their foreign policy tour de force regarding Ukraine, there has been very little self reflection, it seems.

    It's kind of amazing how 20-30 years ago the left was trying to free Tibet and now it's "Well actually the PRC isn't that bad" with the inevitable subtext of "and if they are it's probably the fault of the US who is clearly just racist against the Chinese people and not concerned about the PRC's growing modern military and apparent territorial ambitions"

    There are tons of leftists and leftist organizations that care about Tibet and there have always been leftists aligned with the PRC. This is stupid.

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Here's my thing about turned the sauron like eye of the MIC to China:

    https://youtu.be/MTCqXlDjx18

    Also the fact that a lot of talk feels like someone took domino theory and taped over a couple of the nouns.

    Whippy wrote: »
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Obama was trying to pivot to asia 15 years ago too. As much as sinophobia is on the rise, this is also part of a much larger and longer term movement in foreign policy towards viewing China as a threat that has to be focused on. Chinese actions over the past few decades have only continued to strengthen the case for making this move.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Here's my thing about turned the sauron like eye of the MIC to China:

    https://youtu.be/MTCqXlDjx18

    Also the fact that a lot of talk feels like someone took domino theory and taped over a couple of the nouns.

    That video seems kinda silly in the point it's trying to make. The US and China are both economically integrated and in opposition to each other on a ton of political and economic matters. These things are not mutually exclusive.

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    BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Oh yes, Western companies famously don't get involved in politics at all.

    But seriously, it differs from company to company but a whole host of US businesses will happily hand over customer data upon request by law enforcement, no warrant required. This bill would make it that much easier for government officials to get access to that data on even flimsier pretenses.

    Wasn’t there the whole “We haven’t been asked to provide user data” clause in a bunch of tech service EULA’s that have all mysteriously disappeared? The thing that makes me mad about the TikTok thing is, regardless of how bad China is (and the government of China is actively doing bad shit), the answer needs to be stronger data security laws, not punishing people for engaging with tech that is selling/providing data to the wrong group.

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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Brody wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Oh yes, Western companies famously don't get involved in politics at all.

    But seriously, it differs from company to company but a whole host of US businesses will happily hand over customer data upon request by law enforcement, no warrant required. This bill would make it that much easier for government officials to get access to that data on even flimsier pretenses.

    Wasn’t there the whole “We haven’t been asked to provide user data” clause in a bunch of tech service EULA’s that have all mysteriously disappeared? The thing that makes me mad about the TikTok thing is, regardless of how bad China is (and the government of China is actively doing bad shit), the answer needs to be stronger data security laws, not punishing people for engaging with tech that is selling/providing data to the wrong group.

    I think that is missing the point actually. TikTok doesn't need to collect a bunch of user data for China to use it as a propaganda arm. The actual problem that is trying to be addressed here is China, not data privacy. Presumably we would want companies to deny even information request from China that we would consider appropriate if it was the FBI doing it.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Here's my thing about turned the sauron like eye of the MIC to China:

    https://youtu.be/MTCqXlDjx18

    Also the fact that a lot of talk feels like someone took domino theory and taped over a couple of the nouns.

    Domino theory was about other countries inexplicably turning communist and allied with china/Russia.

    Current policy is about China directly dicking around. So no.

    Fencingsax on
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    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Sinophobia is absolutely running fuckin nuts in this country

    This is true, but also the Chinese government is really, really bad. There should be steps taken against it.

    (I haven't read the bill, so can't speak too much as to how effective it actually is.)

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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    There is a difference between YouTube suggesting you alt right videos and the secret police literally showing up at your door to dissappear you because you were critical of the President on Facebook.

    Meta did that when two people talked about crossing state lines to get an abortion so I'm not impressed with US companies not having the police show up at your door.

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    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Brody wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Oh yes, Western companies famously don't get involved in politics at all.

    But seriously, it differs from company to company but a whole host of US businesses will happily hand over customer data upon request by law enforcement, no warrant required. This bill would make it that much easier for government officials to get access to that data on even flimsier pretenses.

    Wasn’t there the whole “We haven’t been asked to provide user data” clause in a bunch of tech service EULA’s that have all mysteriously disappeared? The thing that makes me mad about the TikTok thing is, regardless of how bad China is (and the government of China is actively doing bad shit), the answer needs to be stronger data security laws, not punishing people for engaging with tech that is selling/providing data to the wrong group.

    I think that is missing the point actually. TikTok doesn't need to collect a bunch of user data for China to use it as a propaganda arm. The actual problem that is trying to be addressed here is China, not data privacy. Presumably we would want companies to deny even information request from China that we would consider appropriate if it was the FBI doing it.

    There sure were a lot of questions around the data TikTok collects and it being shared with the Chinese Government during the congressional hearing for it not to be about that at all.

    They also mention pushing pro-Chinese government content, but anecdotally I’ve seen more of that on other social media than TikTok, where most of the videos I have seen have been very critical, especially during the whole spy balloon thing and their monetary support of Russia’s invasion.

    LostNinja on
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    MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    It's worth noting that there are no national limitations on the election interference cause of action.

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    MosatiMosati Registered User regular
    Our new cold war partner having access to 1 in 2 of US citizens is bad, I don't see why the issue should be over complicated and agonized over.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Mosati wrote: »
    Our new cold war partner having access to 1 in 2 of US citizens is bad, I don't see why the issue should be over complicated and agonized over.

    Because the bill they're planning to pass over it sucks monumental ass

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    HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Mosati wrote: »
    Our new cold war partner having access to 1 in 2 of US citizens is bad, I don't see why the issue should be over complicated and agonized over.

    Because the bill they're planning to pass over it sucks monumental ass

    Oh yeah to be clear, issues with the PRC aside, this bill appears to be fairly dogshit.

    Though it's the US Congress doing things with the internet so kinda par for the course unfortunately.

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    MosatiMosati Registered User regular
    Mosati wrote: »
    Our new cold war partner having access to 1 in 2 of US citizens is bad, I don't see why the issue should be over complicated and agonized over.

    Because the bill they're planning to pass over it sucks monumental ass

    It's garbage and needs amendments, yes.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    I have pretty strong negative feelings about a country walling itself off from chunks of the internet.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    I have pretty strong negative feelings about a country walling itself off from chunks of the internet.

    Absolutely. The Internet is a key part of speexh and communication

    Fencingsax on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Like if you think tiktok is harvesting data strengthen data privacy laws. If you think kids are getting exposed to too much propaganda then take measures to improve education with regards to the ability to process it.

    Banning tiktok doesnt protect anyone's data and Americans are still exposed to a fire hose of propaganda. The only people that actually benefit are the tech companies that just got the government to take out their competition and social conservatives who got rid of a major source of inter-youth communication.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I think pretending the youth won't just move on to the next app anyways is ridiculous.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I think pretending the youth won't just move on to the next app anyways is ridiculous.

    Lot of the people lobbying for this ban are hoping itll be their app

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I think pretending the youth won't just move on to the next app anyways is ridiculous.

    Lot of the people lobbying for this ban are hoping itll be their app

    Oh, that's true without question

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    MillMill Registered User regular
    Yeah, again, the current move by Congress is bullshit because it doesn't fix anything and probably makes things worse in the long wrong.

    The first goal, should be strengthening data laws and reigning in data brokers. My biggest bone of contention with tech companies right now is that they are allowed free reign to collect my personal data, a fuck ton of which they have no fucking business collecting and then being able to sell that data. Then the assholes that are compiling all that data are then allowed to pretty much figure out who I am and then take that data and start filling in gaps, where they often make assumption off of incomplete or inaccurate data. So there is a real risk that people have or are going to get fucked over.

    Also the other maddening thing about this, is everyone focuses on how shitty China's government is. They don't stop to think how shit most corporations are, or to even contemplate that many of those same businesses really do want to be as shitty as China. A big reason a ton of companies piss and moan about every regulation that exists, is that in the past many companies often did whatever the fuck they wanted and they want to go back to that. Regulations are not tight enough and that is very much the case in regards to data. Need I remind people that every time congress tries to pass a law to force corporations to improve their IT security, every fucking business starts screaming about how it would be bad for business and that it would be government overreach. It's pretty fucking galling given how many of them have had data breaches and that some have even covered up the fact that they've been breached.

    The real harm here is that if they pass the current bill, ignoring how the vagueness is also a n issue here, is that too many people will be like "we banned TikTok, everything is solved!" and nothing will have really been solved. Every corporation will still get to do whatever the fuck they want with people data, at least ones in the US. They'll still get to gather as much information as they please, whether or not it's warranted for what they are doing. It'll still find it's way to authoritarian governments. Before some goes, "but Mill they can't do that," no you're wrong because they are doing it now. Some are doing it directly, others choose indirect routes. "Oh, I can't give it directly to Russia and China? I'll give it to Data Brokers Inc, who will just happen to give it to Data Stronks and then it ends up in the hands of China and Russia because it's not illegal for me to gather all the information, nor is it illegal for me to sell it to Data Brokers Inc. You also can't claim that I was trying to do it indirectly because I can't control who Data Brokers Inc does business with and they might not have realized that Data Stronks was a front company for the Russian government. After all it's not illegal to collect that data, nor is it illegal to sell or provide the data. It's only illegal to knowingly sell or give it directly to companies and governments on the blacklist."

    We do not need an anti-TikTok bill. What we need, is an "Hey asshole corpos, this is how you going to handle information. This is what you are allowed to collect. This is what you are not allowed to sell or give. What data we do allow you to give or sell, can only change hands under X, Y and Z situations and must follow guidelines A-G. Fuck you, you're going following these rules or your asses are going to be fined and if your in upper management, you may be looking at jail time. Seriously, fuck you. Also, since we're here, here are the rules you're going to follow to ensure that your fucking networks are secure. Fuck your excuses, you going fucking do it because we've realized most of you are short-sighted money grubbing assholes that will piss and moan about everything being government overreach that will straggle businesses death. So fuck you, fuck you and the government foremost job is looking out for the welfare of the citizenry, not letting you do whatever you want. So fuck you and finally, we hope you choke to death on your own bullshit rhetoric and fuck you," bill.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Again, this isn't about data privacy and never was. The bill is about technology from specific governments viewed as hostile to US interests. Asking why it's not about US corporations harvesting data is like asking why a race car is such a poor tractor.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Again, this isn't about data privacy and never was. The bill is about technology from specific governments viewed as hostile to US interests. Asking why it's not about US corporations harvesting data is like asking why a race car is such a poor tractor.

    How is it hostile if its not about data

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    MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    shryke wrote: »
    Again, this isn't about data privacy and never was. The bill is about technology from specific governments viewed as hostile to US interests. Asking why it's not about US corporations harvesting data is like asking why a race car is such a poor tractor.

    How is it hostile if its not about data

    TikTok's in-app browser is (or was, anyway, no idea if it was removed, but I wouldn't exactly trust ByteDance to be honest about it) a straight up keylogger. This is not "oh we can correlate a bunch of different sources and figure out who you are," it's "we are stealing your credit card numbers and passwords."

    Monwyn on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Monwyn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Again, this isn't about data privacy and never was. The bill is about technology from specific governments viewed as hostile to US interests. Asking why it's not about US corporations harvesting data is like asking why a race car is such a poor tractor.

    How is it hostile if its not about data

    TikTok's in-app browser is (or was, anyway, no idea if it was removed, but I wouldn't exactly trust ByteDance to be honest about it) a straight up keylogger. This is not "oh we can correlate a bunch of different sources and figure out who you are," it's "we are stealing your credit card numbers and passwords."

    Ok, make it illegal for programs to do that. Either TikTok can comply or stop doing business here. Vastly better governance than just banning this app.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Again, this isn't about data privacy and never was. The bill is about technology from specific governments viewed as hostile to US interests. Asking why it's not about US corporations harvesting data is like asking why a race car is such a poor tractor.

    How is it hostile if its not about data

    TikTok's in-app browser is (or was, anyway, no idea if it was removed, but I wouldn't exactly trust ByteDance to be honest about it) a straight up keylogger. This is not "oh we can correlate a bunch of different sources and figure out who you are," it's "we are stealing your credit card numbers and passwords."

    Ok, make it illegal for programs to do that. Either TikTok can comply or stop doing business here. Vastly better governance than just banning this app.

    That is literally what S686 does.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Monwyn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Again, this isn't about data privacy and never was. The bill is about technology from specific governments viewed as hostile to US interests. Asking why it's not about US corporations harvesting data is like asking why a race car is such a poor tractor.

    How is it hostile if its not about data

    TikTok's in-app browser is (or was, anyway, no idea if it was removed, but I wouldn't exactly trust ByteDance to be honest about it) a straight up keylogger. This is not "oh we can correlate a bunch of different sources and figure out who you are," it's "we are stealing your credit card numbers and passwords."

    Ok, make it illegal for programs to do that. Either TikTok can comply or stop doing business here. Vastly better governance than just banning this app.

    That is literally what S686 does.

    Among a lot of extremely stupid and dangerous shit. I mean really this is the same stupid "debate" that happened over the Patriot act.

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    MosatiMosati Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Monwyn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Again, this isn't about data privacy and never was. The bill is about technology from specific governments viewed as hostile to US interests. Asking why it's not about US corporations harvesting data is like asking why a race car is such a poor tractor.

    How is it hostile if its not about data

    TikTok's in-app browser is (or was, anyway, no idea if it was removed, but I wouldn't exactly trust ByteDance to be honest about it) a straight up keylogger. This is not "oh we can correlate a bunch of different sources and figure out who you are," it's "we are stealing your credit card numbers and passwords."

    They are, or were, just straight up harvesting inputs. I do not trust them to follow rules or regulations to stop them from doing so. If TikTok were browser based instead of living on your device this wouldn't even be an issue.

    I don't know why people are acting like TikTok invented public discourse. Watching users defend the platform really has a corporate bootlicking vibe.

    We obviously lack the legal language currently to enact a ban well, and there's zero chance we have the political juice to reform privacy. So what to do? Nothing?

    Mosati on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Mosati wrote: »
    Watching users defend the platform really has a corporate bootlicking vibe.

    One of the biggest lobbyists for this is Meta.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Monwyn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Again, this isn't about data privacy and never was. The bill is about technology from specific governments viewed as hostile to US interests. Asking why it's not about US corporations harvesting data is like asking why a race car is such a poor tractor.

    How is it hostile if its not about data

    TikTok's in-app browser is (or was, anyway, no idea if it was removed, but I wouldn't exactly trust ByteDance to be honest about it) a straight up keylogger. This is not "oh we can correlate a bunch of different sources and figure out who you are," it's "we are stealing your credit card numbers and passwords."

    Ok, make it illegal for programs to do that. Either TikTok can comply or stop doing business here. Vastly better governance than just banning this app.

    That is literally what S686 does.

    Among a lot of extremely stupid and dangerous shit.

    No, not really. It's pretty much exactly this.

    Here is the text of the bill. Please identify the relevant sections you find concerning, because after reading it last night as far as I can tell all it does is say "hey yeah corporations can't run intelligence ops on US soil, and if they try we'll sanction them."

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    The problems with this bill have been highlighted already. There's no reason to just go in circles again on this point but, for instance,
    (A) means any foreign government or regime, determined by the Secretary, pursuant to sections 3 and 5, to have engaged in a long-term pattern or serious instances of conduct significantly adverse to the national security of the United States or the security and safety of United States persons; and
    This is an obvious point for abuse. Saying "this is just about banning keyloggers" is like saying the PATRIOT Act is just about spying on terrorists. It completely misses what the problem is.

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    BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I think pretending the youth won't just move on to the next app anyways is ridiculous.

    I mean, the youth will move on anyways, so maybe we shouldn’t significantly damage our rights while attempting to destroy it.


    Edit: From the bill “(2) require, inspect, and obtain books, records, and any other information from any person subject to the provisions of this Act or other applicable Federal law;”

    I don’t know how tightly “subject to the provision” is. There are definitely people who are reading that to say basically anything, from anyone, if they have used something made by a “Foriegn Adversary“, at some point in their life.

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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Brody wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I think pretending the youth won't just move on to the next app anyways is ridiculous.

    I mean, the youth will move on anyways, so maybe we shouldn’t significantly damage our rights while attempting to destroy it.


    Edit: From the bill “(2) require, inspect, and obtain books, records, and any other information from any person subject to the provisions of this Act or other applicable Federal law;”

    I don’t know how tightly “subject to the provision” is. There are definitely people who are reading that to say basically anything, from anyone, if they have used something made by a “Foriegn Adversary“, at some point in their life.

    You can basically assume that at some point a federal prosecutor is going to try for the broadest possible reading of it anyways.

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    silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    Hey so this fell off my radar because I figured it was hopeless and the Senate would block it forever, but:

    Senate confirms Anna Gomez to FCC, breaking yearslong deadlock at the agency

    Which almost immediately led to:

    Chairwoman Rosenworcel Proposes to Restore Net Neutrality Rules

    I'm sure this too will take a while to reinstate and face stiff resistance. I wonder if Net Neutrality will end up like the Global Gag Rule, and get turned on/off every 4-8 years depending on who the President is.

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    silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    There's a vote scheduled to restore Net Neutrality.

    https://www.reuters.com/technology/fcc-vote-restore-net-neutrality-rules-reversing-trump-2024-04-02/

    Moving at the speed of government, but good on them. I wonder if it's the exact same set of rules Trump FCC gutted?

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    DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-agency-vote-restore-net-neutrality-rules-2024-04-25/
    https://www.fcc.gov/document/gomez-votes-restore-net-neutrality

    We're back.
    Media Contact:
    Edyael Casaperalta
    Edyael.Casaperalta@fcc.gov

    For Immediate Release


    COMMISSIONER GOMEZ VOTES TO RESTORE NET NEUTRALITY AT FCC APRIL PUBLIC MEETING

    WASHINGTON, April 25, 2024 — Today, Commissioner Anna M. Gomez voted to restore Net Neutrality at the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) April Open Meeting. Restoring Net Neutrality would bring back a national standard for broadband reliability, security, and consumer protection. Since 2017, there has been no federal oversight over this vital service. Restoring FCC oversight of broadband Internet access service under Title II ensures that this essential resource is open, safe, and secure for all. The Commissioner delivered remarks about her vote in English and Spanish.

    “Broadband access to the Internet is a critical conduit that is essential for modern life,” said Commissioner Gomez. “Protecting this critical infrastructure that is essential to the safety, economy, health, education, and well-being of this country is good public policy. The value is so great that we cannot wait for the flood to arrive before we start to build the levee.”

    Her full statement in support of restoring Net Neutrality is available below and will also be published on the FCC’s website.

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