My position is strictly that, in those last five minutes, the conversation about Rust's near death experience and the stars/darkness is detrimental to the overall work. The show went deep, and ended shallow. They had me, and then they lost me. I actually groaned at the "light is winning" line. It was cheesy. It was totally unearned.
Literally every other moment of every other episode was good TV in my view. If it hadn't been as good as it was, my disappointment wouldn't be possible.
I didn't say anyone is a sheeple, or it needed to have a Lovecraftian ending, or whatever. If I've stated what I would have preferred, it's because when I am dissatisfied with something, I tend to start thinking up alternatives. But that's a symptom, not a cause. Leave it ambiguous, for all I care - but resorting to a vastly more black and white conclusion to a deeply grey storyline feels fundamentally off to me.
EDIT: And, hell yes the super-narrative here bothers me. The atheist character is finally made happy by a vision of heaven, because obviously that's what he really wanted, deep down. Does it work here (in that is it internally consistent and so on) - sure. But that's the whole problem with super-narratives, isn't it? You can have any number of individual works that work fine on their own, but are problematic in combination...and I was disappointed the show ended up part of that, when I was really thinking it wouldn't.
Hmm, let me put it this way - and then lets give it a rest, yeah? I try not to be a gazelle surrounded by hyenas too often.
I thought I was getting the closest thing to Delta Green on screen I'd ever see and instead I got the grisliest Lifetime movie ever.
My position is strictly that, in those last five minutes, the conversation about Rust's near death experience and the stars/darkness is detrimental to the overall work. The show went deep, and ended shallow. They had me, and then they lost me. I actually groaned at the "light is winning" line. It was cheesy. It was totally unearned.
I don't think a person realizing they can find a sense of love and purpose in life despite their daughter having been hit by a car when she was two fucking years old is shallow.
I think you may be confusedly thinking deep : angsty :: shallow : happy
Rust realizing that the memory of his daughter's love can live on in his memory is a pretty fucking deep commentary on the degree to which one's perception can influence their reality.
Which is what the quote from Martin in the first episode was about.
That may not be a coincidence. It may be really fucking good writing.
It didn't come across as a memory of her love. It came across as a vision of the afterlife. At least to me. I also would have prefered to keep that last speech out of it. I don't think an atheist having a spiritual moment is an especially interesting moment and it sure as hell isn't very original. Loved everything about the show up to that last monologue.
What I think some of you guys aren't getting is that Rust saying "When I was in the coma and was unconscious, I was able to let go and feel feelings I forced myself to stop having long ago because they pained me too much, i.e. my daughter's love" is not him talking about an afterlife. When he was in the coma he was about to die, and because he wasn't conscious and couldn't keep up the drinking and his constant speeches about how the world is pointless, trying desperately to convince himself that nothing means anything, suddenly he was forced to remember what it felt like when his daughter was alive. And when he wakes up, he realizes the world sucks, but he and Marty took out just a little bit of the evil that pervades it, and it's okay to carry a small amount of optimism with him forward.
If you removed the last 5 minutes of the ending of this show, and it ended with Rust just going "Yeah man, I'll probably still kill myself tomorrow because it doesn't even matter that we caught the guy, because the cycle's going to repeat and evil is everywhere and life is meaningless" then his character arc would've been for nothing.
As it stands, he's probably going to win a well-deserved emmy, and the last 5 minutes of the show are integral to the character arc.
Rumors that they're offering Jessica Chastain one of the leads in season 2, but she's yet to accept. After all the rumors about Pitt being one of the leads, I was wondering if the other lead was going to be a woman as Pizzolatto suggested.
I never saw any indication in the show that the light is winning, nor does the analogy hold up with the stars in the night sky, since they're all slowly blinking out
the tone of the show didn't suit a "good triumphs over evil" ending at all; a "we are headed, individually and collectively, towards our inevitable destruction, so what meaning can we salvage" would be the better direction to take. The basic existential question instead of a fairy tale binary.
"good triumphs over evil" is a pretty disappointing cap to a show that promised something smarter
Really though the main disappointment is that the show looked like it was heading toward a surreal mythologizing of antihumanism, and then it veered away into the well-executed but conventional
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
First of all, the star analogy was not about what actually happens to stars. It was simply about how the sky used to be all black, and now there are stars lighting up parts of it, ie the light is winning the battle over the course of time. He's not literally talking about stars taking over the whole sky, lol.
Second of all, please describe what a "surreal mythologizing of antihumanism" looks like.
Also, good triumphs over evil wasn't what the ending of s1 was. It was "story of 2 guys who have their lives irrevocably altered and changed by this case over 2 decades. They think they solved the case only to find out they didn't get the guy really responsible the first time around, and get a second chance. After they get the real guy, they haven't saved the world but they've done a little bit of good, and both of them are able to get a little bit of optimism back in their lives."
It was a fantastic ending to their story.
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
I never saw any indication in the show that the light is winning, nor does the analogy hold up with the stars in the night sky, since they're all slowly blinking out
the tone of the show didn't suit a "good triumphs over evil" ending at all; a "we are headed, individually and collectively, towards our inevitable destruction, so what meaning can we salvage" would be the better direction to take. The basic existential question instead of a fairy tale binary.
"good triumphs over evil" is a pretty disappointing cap to a show that promised something smarter
Really though the main disappointment is that the show looked like it was heading toward a surreal mythologizing of antihumanism, and then it veered away into the well-executed but conventional
I don't agree that the message is good triumphs over evil. It's the importance of the human perspective on the topic. It's humanity looking at the world around them and deciding how to approach it.
antihumanism is a loose term describing several schools of thought that are opposed to enlightenment humanism, enumerate its flaws and nasty consequences, and question our current view of human agency/individuality/personality/will
the show looked like it was headed in that direction and was using surreal, bizarre events/characters/dialogue to animate those kinds of ideas through fictional narrative heavy on symbols, rituals, etc. and thus approaching it from a mythological angle that touches on cosmic horror instead of greek antiquity
I don't agree with a lot of Evil Multifarious' interpretations, but I mean... it led to more discussion about the show didn't it? I've enjoyed his posts for showing a perspective on the events that mostly never even occurred to me, and I've enjoyed the debate (and discourse, even!) of people disagreeing with his assertions and backing it up with their intepretations. I mean, that's just good D&D Television Program Thread action man.
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minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
Look, can we just sign fucking Jonah Hill and Channing Tatum for True Detective Season 2?
You know you'd watch it.
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
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minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
Okay, but really my secret wishlist is Mark Ruffalo and Jennifer Lawrence.
But I won't say no to Jonah and Channing.
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
Also, good triumphs over evil wasn't what the ending of s1 was. It was "story of 2 guys who have their lives irrevocably altered and changed by this case over 2 decades. They think they solved the case only to find out they didn't get the guy really responsible the first time around, and get a second chance. After they get the real guy, they haven't saved the world but they've done a little bit of good, and both of them are able to get a little bit of optimism back in their lives."
It was a fantastic ending to their story.
As I said before, the main issue for many seems to be that they think Rust has some mainline connection to the ultimate truth of the universe and that everything he says is a statement of true metaphysics rather then, you know, a reflection on his state of mind.
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minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
edited May 2014
See, that's the thing. Rust is just a man. He's not even a great man. He's barely even a good man. He doesn't have shit figured out. But he accomplished this one victory in his life and got a little clarity and release as a result (both directly and indirectly). He got a little peace in his life. To me, that's what the whole show was building towards, how a couple of fucked up dudes who haven't exactly had their shit together can come through some shit a little bit stronger and find a little goodness in their lives, like they meant something.
Because cosmically, they still don't mean shit, but in a microcosm, yeah, they made a difference in something, and they can take solace in that, regardless of anything else that happened.
minor incident on
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
Owen Wilson, Robert Downey Jr. and Jimmy Smits. The youngish guy going nowhere assigned to the beach, the hotshot from the city and the golden boy. One of them did it, they're all investigating it.
After reading this discussion and a little more self reflection, I think that a more accurate description of Rust's monolouge would be that is very zen. By giving up his worldly attachments in preparation for death, he rediscovers a reason to live. I think it ties his character arc up nicely, going from cynic to humanist.
There's a lot of casting rumors floating around right now: Joaquin Phoenix, Christian Bale and Josh Brolin (and, uh, Taylor Kitsch) are apparently being bandied around for the male characters right now, but nothing concrete - they could just end up like the Chastain one.
I hadn't heard any rumors about Phoenix, Bale, Brolin, or Kitsch. I wouldn't be unhappy to see any of them end up cast. I imagine with how successful the first season was, and knowing that it's only a couple month commitment to shoot, they're going to have a lot of interest from some high profile talent.
First of all, the star analogy was not about what actually happens to stars. It was simply about how the sky used to be all black, and now there are stars lighting up parts of it, ie the light is winning the battle over the course of time. He's not literally talking about stars taking over the whole sky, lol.
Second of all, please describe what a "surreal mythologizing of antihumanism" looks like.
First of all, the star analogy was not about what actually happens to stars. It was simply about how the sky used to be all black, and now there are stars lighting up parts of it, ie the light is winning the battle over the course of time. He's not literally talking about stars taking over the whole sky, lol.
Second of all, please describe what a "surreal mythologizing of antihumanism" looks like.
The sky used to be all what now?
Black. You know, like he says in the show. In the way where it's a metaphor.
Yeah, the metaphor would've been really good if he had been like "You know, the sky used to be all dark, but now there's stars everywhere and the light is winning. I mean, sure, eventually all the stars will go out and maybe it'll be all dark again, but you know, that's just space. I'm no longer using a metaphor I'm actually talking about stars dying"
That one would've definitely gotten him the emmy. Best TV writing. Instead of using metaphors wrong like we have all this time, drawing comparisons to things that share something small in common as a figure of speech, we should make it where you can't use metaphors unless the things are exactly comparable in every way, and then once we do that, we just stop using metaphors altogether because there's no longer any point.
If somebody I know ever says to me "Man this car of mine is like an old animal on its last legs," I'm going to make sure he understands that cars are not in fact animals, nor do they have legs. And while the car may break down and stop running until it has extensive repairs done to the engine, it will never be okay to bury it in his back yard. =P
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Literally every other moment of every other episode was good TV in my view. If it hadn't been as good as it was, my disappointment wouldn't be possible.
I didn't say anyone is a sheeple, or it needed to have a Lovecraftian ending, or whatever. If I've stated what I would have preferred, it's because when I am dissatisfied with something, I tend to start thinking up alternatives. But that's a symptom, not a cause. Leave it ambiguous, for all I care - but resorting to a vastly more black and white conclusion to a deeply grey storyline feels fundamentally off to me.
EDIT: And, hell yes the super-narrative here bothers me. The atheist character is finally made happy by a vision of heaven, because obviously that's what he really wanted, deep down. Does it work here (in that is it internally consistent and so on) - sure. But that's the whole problem with super-narratives, isn't it? You can have any number of individual works that work fine on their own, but are problematic in combination...and I was disappointed the show ended up part of that, when I was really thinking it wouldn't.
Hmm, let me put it this way - and then lets give it a rest, yeah? I try not to be a gazelle surrounded by hyenas too often.
I thought I was getting the closest thing to Delta Green on screen I'd ever see and instead I got the grisliest Lifetime movie ever.
I don't think a person realizing they can find a sense of love and purpose in life despite their daughter having been hit by a car when she was two fucking years old is shallow.
I think you may be confusedly thinking deep : angsty :: shallow : happy
Rust realizing that the memory of his daughter's love can live on in his memory is a pretty fucking deep commentary on the degree to which one's perception can influence their reality.
Which is what the quote from Martin in the first episode was about.
That may not be a coincidence. It may be really fucking good writing.
If you removed the last 5 minutes of the ending of this show, and it ended with Rust just going "Yeah man, I'll probably still kill myself tomorrow because it doesn't even matter that we caught the guy, because the cycle's going to repeat and evil is everywhere and life is meaningless" then his character arc would've been for nothing.
As it stands, he's probably going to win a well-deserved emmy, and the last 5 minutes of the show are integral to the character arc.
Rumors that they're offering Jessica Chastain one of the leads in season 2, but she's yet to accept. After all the rumors about Pitt being one of the leads, I was wondering if the other lead was going to be a woman as Pizzolatto suggested.
Edit: Though apparently now both HBO and her publicist are saying she's not doing it.
alright HBO halfway there let's do this
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/no-jessica-chastain-isnt-headed-for-true-detective-20140521
What kind of world are we in where people on the internet report things that apparently have no basis in reality!?
Would've been a killer casting, but i'm sure whomever they get will be good.
the tone of the show didn't suit a "good triumphs over evil" ending at all; a "we are headed, individually and collectively, towards our inevitable destruction, so what meaning can we salvage" would be the better direction to take. The basic existential question instead of a fairy tale binary.
"good triumphs over evil" is a pretty disappointing cap to a show that promised something smarter
Really though the main disappointment is that the show looked like it was heading toward a surreal mythologizing of antihumanism, and then it veered away into the well-executed but conventional
They look like words...
Second of all, please describe what a "surreal mythologizing of antihumanism" looks like.
It was a fantastic ending to their story.
I don't agree that the message is good triumphs over evil. It's the importance of the human perspective on the topic. It's humanity looking at the world around them and deciding how to approach it.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
sorry
antihumanism is a loose term describing several schools of thought that are opposed to enlightenment humanism, enumerate its flaws and nasty consequences, and question our current view of human agency/individuality/personality/will
the show looked like it was headed in that direction and was using surreal, bizarre events/characters/dialogue to animate those kinds of ideas through fictional narrative heavy on symbols, rituals, etc. and thus approaching it from a mythological angle that touches on cosmic horror instead of greek antiquity
Hm.
Oh, cool, there's a post about casting on the last pa- oh.
Hm.
You know you'd watch it.
But I won't say no to Jonah and Channing.
As I said before, the main issue for many seems to be that they think Rust has some mainline connection to the ultimate truth of the universe and that everything he says is a statement of true metaphysics rather then, you know, a reflection on his state of mind.
Because cosmically, they still don't mean shit, but in a microcosm, yeah, they made a difference in something, and they can take solace in that, regardless of anything else that happened.
3 leads, set in lesser known venues of California.
Mmmmm....toasty.
Three leads, one woman? I'm going with John Lithgow, McCauley Culkin and Liv Tyler. Bonus points for a love triangle.
Confined to a tiny spit of sand, unable to escape,
But tonight, it's heavy stuff.
well of course he'd be there too, but he'd be played by a different actor in each episode.
You joke, but Lithgow would be amazing. He was single-handedly responsible for the best season of Dexter.
The sky used to be all what now?
Black. You know, like he says in the show. In the way where it's a metaphor.
I feel like very few metaphors account for the heat death of the universe
and really, why would they?
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
because it's directly relevant to both the tenor and the vehicle of the metaphor and failing to account for it makes it a bad metaphor
Man if your perception of reality is colored at all times by "Yeah but then HEAT DEATH OF THE UNIVERSE" then you might have a problem.
It's like "The grass is always greener UNTIL IT'S ASH BECAUSE THE SUN EXPANDED TOO FAR". That's not a great metaphor.
That one would've definitely gotten him the emmy. Best TV writing. Instead of using metaphors wrong like we have all this time, drawing comparisons to things that share something small in common as a figure of speech, we should make it where you can't use metaphors unless the things are exactly comparable in every way, and then once we do that, we just stop using metaphors altogether because there's no longer any point.
If somebody I know ever says to me "Man this car of mine is like an old animal on its last legs," I'm going to make sure he understands that cars are not in fact animals, nor do they have legs. And while the car may break down and stop running until it has extensive repairs done to the engine, it will never be okay to bury it in his back yard. =P