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What to do about [Gender Roles]
Squidget0
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So, gender roles are a pretty big deal in first-world society. The genitals you're born with shape how people treat you from birth. They shape your interests, your education, your hobbies, your social groups, and your career. They're a huge source of pride for some and a huge source of shame for others.
Women get a bad deal from gender roles. Women's health issues are frequently politicized, with access to abortion and contraception being a major issue in elections. Women get consistently lower pay for their labor, even accounting for factors like education, senority, and maternity leave. Women are unequally represented in certain fields, primarily the sciences. Sexual assault of young women is common, and society handles it terribly when it happens. Female victims of domestic violence are often dismissed or ignored. Women are expected to be beautiful at all times, and are often held to an unrealistic standard of beauty. Women are expected to be the gatekeepers of sex, to remain pure while also giving the 'gift' of sex to deserving men. A woman who gives too much sex or gives it to the wrong people is viewed as a slut. The female body is prized, something to be shown off and cultivated, often over other attributes a woman might have. Overall, women are often viewed as helpless child-like figures that need to be protected and kept pure, incapable of handling complex tasks or responsibilities on their own.
Men also get a pretty bad deal from gender roles. Men have significantly higher rates of suicide than women. Men are less likely to succeed in school than women in most subjects, are less likely to attend college, and more likely to drop out. 68% of the homeless are men. Men are over-represented across to do society's most physically dangerous jobs, often with little or no reward. Men are expected to be violent, and are viewed as violent whether they are or not. Men face serious issues in the court system, and are more likely to be arrested for a crime, more likely to be convicted, and given consistently longer sentences. Fathers are often discriminated against in custody cases. The military as a career choice is aimed primarily at young men, and men who go into the military often suffer all kinds of physical and mental health issues. Men are expected to be the pursuers of sex, to always want sex, and masculinity is often made to revolve around a man's ability to convince a lot of women to have sex with him. A man who does not or cannot do this is viewed as a loser. The male body is seen as shameful, something gross that should be hidden from view, a view that ties closely to society's homophobia. Overall, men are frequently viewed as disposable, cogs in an economic and social machine, and only viewed as individuals when placed in positions of power. They are often seen as being incapable of real feelings, and it is expected that men will endure any hardship without complaint. A man who takes about his problems is viewed as weak, whiny, or feminine.
Society reinforces these gender roles in a lot of ways. Parents, teachers, and peers encourage children to act in certain ways based on their gender. Representations in media tend to play strongly to gender stereotypes on both sides, reinforcing those gender roles as they already exist. Both genders end up trapped by their respective roles, and punished in various implicit and explicit ways for going outside of those roles. If you act outside of prescribed gender roles, you can expect to be shamed, or at the very least steered back towards the 'right' path. Gender roles prevent individuals from expressing themselves, and encourage everyone to conform to an arbitrary social norm. This isn't enforced by any one gender or group of powerful people (white men, the media, ect), it's enforced by everyone. Most people in society enforce gender roles, in a thousand tiny subtle ways - and almost always without being aware that they're doing it. It's not done out of malice, it's the way we're all taught to think.
A lot of people will want to compare those lists up above and try to figure out which gender has it worse. Don't bother. The point is that both men and women have things worse than they should. That both sides are oppressed by conventional gender roles, and placed into boxes that often don't fit.
Personally, I would love to see a real gender equality movement, one built from the ground up around egalitarianism and individual choice. I think that there is a lot of room for such a movement in the public consciousness right now, and I think it would do a lot of good for both men and women.
But isn't that feminism is?
Kind of. Feminism has done a lot of great things, and its largely responsible for making us into a society where implicit gender roles rather than explicit legal discrimination are the primary issues we deal with. It's also the only movement that seriously discusses gender roles and their impacts on society, and it should absolutely be commended for that.
But long-term, I don't really see it as being able to address societal gender roles all that effectively. It's a movement primarily focused on making things better for women, and putting women's issues into the public consciousness. That's a laudable goal (particularly in parts of the world where women are still heavily oppressed), but it's not a particularly good approach to implicit gender roles, which are inherently a two-sided issue. The construct of men as oppressors and women are victims is built right into the name, into the language ("Patriarchy!"") and into the discourse. While it's great that feminism has acknowledged gender roles and tries to address them, it continues to do so in a one-sided manner, focusing on the roles that affect women and often taking the gender male role as the default, even if the male role is horrible and full of its own baggage. A true gender equality movement would need to give equal voice to both genders, to explore men's issues with the same veracity that it explores women's issues - and I don't really see that developing in feminism right now. That's just my opinion though, and I know that many have a different take.
Anyway, this thread is for discussing gender roles. What they are, why they exist, the ways society expresses them, and what we can (or should) do about them. Feel free to share anything you think is relevant, whether it's a a statistic, an idea, or a personal experience.
Women get a bad deal from gender roles. Women's health issues are frequently politicized, with access to abortion and contraception being a major issue in elections. Women get consistently lower pay for their labor, even accounting for factors like education, senority, and maternity leave. Women are unequally represented in certain fields, primarily the sciences. Sexual assault of young women is common, and society handles it terribly when it happens. Female victims of domestic violence are often dismissed or ignored. Women are expected to be beautiful at all times, and are often held to an unrealistic standard of beauty. Women are expected to be the gatekeepers of sex, to remain pure while also giving the 'gift' of sex to deserving men. A woman who gives too much sex or gives it to the wrong people is viewed as a slut. The female body is prized, something to be shown off and cultivated, often over other attributes a woman might have. Overall, women are often viewed as helpless child-like figures that need to be protected and kept pure, incapable of handling complex tasks or responsibilities on their own.
Men also get a pretty bad deal from gender roles. Men have significantly higher rates of suicide than women. Men are less likely to succeed in school than women in most subjects, are less likely to attend college, and more likely to drop out. 68% of the homeless are men. Men are over-represented across to do society's most physically dangerous jobs, often with little or no reward. Men are expected to be violent, and are viewed as violent whether they are or not. Men face serious issues in the court system, and are more likely to be arrested for a crime, more likely to be convicted, and given consistently longer sentences. Fathers are often discriminated against in custody cases. The military as a career choice is aimed primarily at young men, and men who go into the military often suffer all kinds of physical and mental health issues. Men are expected to be the pursuers of sex, to always want sex, and masculinity is often made to revolve around a man's ability to convince a lot of women to have sex with him. A man who does not or cannot do this is viewed as a loser. The male body is seen as shameful, something gross that should be hidden from view, a view that ties closely to society's homophobia. Overall, men are frequently viewed as disposable, cogs in an economic and social machine, and only viewed as individuals when placed in positions of power. They are often seen as being incapable of real feelings, and it is expected that men will endure any hardship without complaint. A man who takes about his problems is viewed as weak, whiny, or feminine.
Society reinforces these gender roles in a lot of ways. Parents, teachers, and peers encourage children to act in certain ways based on their gender. Representations in media tend to play strongly to gender stereotypes on both sides, reinforcing those gender roles as they already exist. Both genders end up trapped by their respective roles, and punished in various implicit and explicit ways for going outside of those roles. If you act outside of prescribed gender roles, you can expect to be shamed, or at the very least steered back towards the 'right' path. Gender roles prevent individuals from expressing themselves, and encourage everyone to conform to an arbitrary social norm. This isn't enforced by any one gender or group of powerful people (white men, the media, ect), it's enforced by everyone. Most people in society enforce gender roles, in a thousand tiny subtle ways - and almost always without being aware that they're doing it. It's not done out of malice, it's the way we're all taught to think.
A lot of people will want to compare those lists up above and try to figure out which gender has it worse. Don't bother. The point is that both men and women have things worse than they should. That both sides are oppressed by conventional gender roles, and placed into boxes that often don't fit.
Personally, I would love to see a real gender equality movement, one built from the ground up around egalitarianism and individual choice. I think that there is a lot of room for such a movement in the public consciousness right now, and I think it would do a lot of good for both men and women.
But isn't that feminism is?
Kind of. Feminism has done a lot of great things, and its largely responsible for making us into a society where implicit gender roles rather than explicit legal discrimination are the primary issues we deal with. It's also the only movement that seriously discusses gender roles and their impacts on society, and it should absolutely be commended for that.
But long-term, I don't really see it as being able to address societal gender roles all that effectively. It's a movement primarily focused on making things better for women, and putting women's issues into the public consciousness. That's a laudable goal (particularly in parts of the world where women are still heavily oppressed), but it's not a particularly good approach to implicit gender roles, which are inherently a two-sided issue. The construct of men as oppressors and women are victims is built right into the name, into the language ("Patriarchy!"") and into the discourse. While it's great that feminism has acknowledged gender roles and tries to address them, it continues to do so in a one-sided manner, focusing on the roles that affect women and often taking the gender male role as the default, even if the male role is horrible and full of its own baggage. A true gender equality movement would need to give equal voice to both genders, to explore men's issues with the same veracity that it explores women's issues - and I don't really see that developing in feminism right now. That's just my opinion though, and I know that many have a different take.
Anyway, this thread is for discussing gender roles. What they are, why they exist, the ways society expresses them, and what we can (or should) do about them. Feel free to share anything you think is relevant, whether it's a a statistic, an idea, or a personal experience.
Squidget0 on
+11
This discussion has been closed.
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It is really weird when you think of how universally actions and interactions and treatment are gendered, and sometimes in really subtle ways. Like, really little stuff, how often people touch you, the kind of names people use when they need to get your attention, tiny stuff like that. It varies greatly, obviously, but so many general themes and ideas are super deeply ingrained that it's hard to notice them sometimes.
Gender roles be weird, is my point. That we don't notice them until they're pointed out is even weirder.
...
I'm really not a huge fan of the gender roles the control physical contact for american males. Like the whole thing where it is almost always inappropriate/unwanted, yet I go through life acutely feeling its absence... I don't know. It is probably mostly me for a few reasons.
Not really.
Most people do not constantly question every aspect of their existence. Generally, we only question things when they break, or cause problems. For most people, raised in a particular society, the gender roles of that society are understood as a simple fact of reality. They go unnoticed because, well, they are not noteworthy.
I would say that what is actually weird is when people question the norms of society. I mean, that's just a truism, given what a "norm" is, and how "weird" tends to be defined.
So, no, it is not weird that folks do not notice the socially accepted gender norms within a particular society.
I do think it is important to distinguish between the different ways in how gender roles manifest. I'm struggling to come up with what I think is the right terminology for what I mean.
Discrimination on the grounds of gender in a particular career is not the same thing as a particular career happening to be favored by, or being better suited to, a particular gender. That is not to say any given individual cannot excel in whatever career they wish, but they may be less likely to be interested in the career in the first place. Some of that may be because of societal gender role norms, but part of it may also be biological inclination. We should break down the former but be realistic about the latter. Of course, a field being totally dominated by one gender makes it harder for the other gender to break in and leads to greater opportunity for discrimination, we should make sure that a field not only does not discriminate against a gender but also that people of a gender view that career as an attractive/viable option for them, but those things being achieved I don't think we should lose too much sleep about the gender demographic makeup of given field not being exactly 50/50.
I also feel its important that our focus being on uplifting those on lower rungs rather than lowering the standard by which everyone is treated.
The massive male workplace death/injury gap, for example, isn't something that can realistically expected to be remedied by encouraging more women to go into mining, logging, fishing or what have you, but rather by improving safety standards, equipment, technology etc. That is not to say that the issue cannot be framed or approached with gender in mind, nor again, that discrimination against a gender in any field should be tolerated.
Basically what I'm saying we should make every effort to make sure individuals aren't discriminated against, but not panic about individuals choosing to enter gender traditional fields if they so wish.
As for Feminism, I would say my positions on gender issues as they affect women are Feminist, but (as I am with any theoretical model) I would be extremely reluctant to consider Feminist theory, though not without explanatory power in certain contexts, as an absolute model that can be applied universally to all of societies ills, especially Men's. Neither should it be viewed in isolation, or other models automatically be considered threatening, when they may provide a complementary alternative perspective. Feminism good, just not one particular narrow model of Feminism all the time always.
Weird in the "that's not what you'd think people would do on a cursory glance" sense, not weird in a "that's not what people do" sense. It is certainly true that it is normal to not notice things like that.
Mostly, your last sentence is correct if we treat norm and weird as antonyms, but that was not my intent with the end of my post. It's weird in the way electron tunneling is weird.
Weird, adjective
2. Of a strikingly odd or unusual character; strange.
Norm, noun
1. A standard, model, or pattern regarded as typical
I tend to think that "odd / unusual" and "standard / typical" are antonymy.
It's fine if you did not mean it in that way. I am simply pointing out that it is not weird that I read it in that way.
Edit: I am still not sure why you think "fails to recognize gender norms within regular activities of life within a particular society" is "not what you'd think people would do on a cursory glance".
Absolutely. And the worst part is when the little stuff compounds into big stuff. The way a person walks or sits, posture, word choice, they're all these tiny differences that very few people think about. Pointing them out directly is kind of weird to most people because they're so small and you don't even notice or think about them. But when you combine all the little things and see them everywhere your entire life, they play into larger perceptions, to the point where it seems like a natural idea that women are more graceful and elegant (and that men are the opposite.)
You also just kind of... forget some of them are happening. They're invisible because, while not totally universal, they are very widespread and (generally, obviously there are times when this is not the case >.>) you get treated the same way pretty consistently. To pick an example on my mind, people as a whole have a set of, for lack of a better word, pronouns they use when referring to male appearing people (sir, but also dude, man, son), but a separate set for women (varying from miss/ma'am to terms of endearment like darling, love, honey, etc, even for strangers). When viewing them on paper it's obvious that there are serious connotative differences between the two, but it's such a tiny thing that it's easy to just not process that stuff as gendered interaction.
I'm still not sure what you and Shivahn are talking about.
There seems to be considerable evidence to support the hypothesis that a majority of human societies tend to have gender roles, tend to divide people into groups.
When the vast majority of human societies do X, that's when we say X is normal. You can say that is bad, deleterious to those groups, unproductive to society. But it is definitely not weird.
Also, your "natural idea" line seems to suggest that there are natural and un-natural ideas, which gets into a nature / nurture conversation with respect to the origin of sex / gender norms. Again, when the vast majority of human societies do X, arguing that X is unnatural plays into the notion that humans are somehow estranged from nature, despite Darwin.
- That society was and/or is dominated by men, for men, is male centric and/or privileges men.
- At the expense of women
- Who were/are exploited, controlled, marginalized due to and/or to facilitate male domination/privilege.
- Manifested and/or Facilitated by many small individual and/or large group factors, be they social, cultural, political, violent, sexual or what have you.
I guess? Roughly? Its a broad church. Perhaps the starting point should be women are oppressed etc in these ways, followed by women are oppressed etc in these ways because of etc, rather than the way I have written it.
I think you and Shiv are using the word "weird" in different ways. Something can be weird while still being the normal state of things, simply by defying conventional ideas under close examination. I think quantum physics is weird, it blows my mind, but apparently it's the natural state of the universe.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing that most human societies have historically had some form of gender roles. That doesn't mean we need to continue to have them, or keep them in the same form as they exist in presently.
Ha, like that's even possible :P
People will try though.
Of course. We can change things.
One question, though, is the issue of unintended consequences that follow from changing the norms. As you and Shivahn said earlier, these roles are found throughout our experience. They're in our rituals, our myths, our language, our habits, etc. That does not mean that we ought to shy away from change, or quash folks who feel that their self-identity may not jive with societal norms.
Rather, we need to be sensitive to what transpires when shifts occur. Just as we oughtn't be too restrictive, we oughtn't be too liberal.
Also, reading through the OP again, you said, " both genders". That would likely piss some folks off.
And that's another issue to tackle. The transition from a society that utilizes binary genders to a society that utilizes 3+ genders, or even a gradient of genders, will have many consequences. Pronouns, restrooms, health care, marital relations, etc. will all be affected.
Shit be complicated, and as this forum tends to lean lefty, they tend to lean a little bit too far in the "let everyone do what they want" direction. Quashing bigotry and intolerance and genuine discrimination is great. Allowing individuals to explore their self-identity and engage in modifications that make them happier and healthier is great.
Casually tossing aside the categories we've utilized since ever, though, is not great.
"many men are arrested and/or kicked out of their homes based off of accusations of domestic violence" in no way means that "female victims of domestic violence are often dismissed or ignored." is not a true statement. It's pretty much established fact that domestic violence is underreported and underprosecuted and men being arrested for same doesn't really have any bearing on that fact.
hitting hot metal with hammers
Forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain this? I was under the impression that there was just male/female; a MtF person would be considered female.
save for the brief edit, this post has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread. You have a history here, _J_, and the next time you fail to contribute to the discussion at hand you will be escorted out of the thread.
people have identified (or invented, depending upon your view of such things) a range of other states genderqueer, gender fuck, neutral, both, and situational states of gender. Plus there are societies in which there are a third gender role - usually it involves men going and loving as priestesses in Asian countries (from my partially remembered experiences watching documentaries about that).
My two cents- the modern feminist movement has lost its way in the weeds of post-modernism/structuralism/whatever, and would be a lot more effective if it focused on concrete, tangible goals. Finally passing the Equal Rights Amendment, for example.
Those aren't mutually exclusive though. There are feminist groups pushing for concrete legislation and cultural change and there are feminists that put a lot of thought into the philosophy side of it, and they don't really get in each other's way. Probably you couldn't even have one without the other
hitting hot metal with hammers
not all of these are feminist by name, but some of them are and most of them are pushing for feminist things
hitting hot metal with hammers
Just wanted to point out that the same could be said for domestic violence against men, and it is not an inherently female gender issue. Most men won't report it out of embarrassment (the same as why a woman wouldn't), with the added issue if not being able to do anything to defend them self due to then they will usually be assumed to be the aggressor.
Of course, it should be noted that most of these people cite their identification as a philosophical choice to prove that gender isn't a binary, which makes about as much sense as putting "dragonkin" on your census form to prove the existence of dragons, and that the total number of these people is roughly on the same order as the congenital amputees that I suppose disprove the proposition that humans are bipedal tetrapods.
For a contemporary real-world example of this and its political implications, there is a fairly large controversy right now in Bangladesh sparked by the national government officially acknowledging hijra as an alternate gender.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Well, this is a bit of a misunderstanding, even though it is a common and arguably understandable one. I'm going to spoiler-tag this because it is a tangent from the actual gender role discussion:
I do recognize that there are those out there, particularly of the radical feminist variety, who do see men as evil, or at least unavoidably complicit in gender oppression. I'd also argue that this is not a 'mainstream' feminist viewpoint, in as much as there is a mainstream viewpoint.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
We need to keep in mind in this thread that gender roles and gender identification are not the same thing.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
...you know this how? Because I know about a half dozen non binary people and none fit that sterotype at all.
And that's before you get into things like binary transgender people who neverless want to stick with their original equipment.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Well, as far as patriarchy specifically, my issue is one more of terminology - I think that you could change every instance of "The patriarchy enforces gender roles" to "Society enforces gender roles" and lose nothing of value, while not alienating men who have gender issues that are worth expressing. Similarly, I think that having a gender-equality movement named "feminism" is a little like creating a movement that seeks equality for the people of every nation, and calling that movement "France-ism." Terminology matters. It defines how we think about things, whether people feel welcome or unwelcome.
As to whether men are seen as oppressors, that's a murkier question, and very much dependent on who you ask. I think that if you asked most people who identify as feminist whether they see all men as oppressors, they would say no. People don't want to be seen as sexist, after all, but that doesn't mean that those issues and narratives and worldviews don't underlie much of the discourse.
But really, it's neither here nor there. Terminology aside, I'm for the movement that wants to free individual behavior from strictly defined gender roles, and against the movement that sees one gender as responsible for society's ills.
I wonder if there's enough room to make them into more gender-less roles and just purely social roles.
Like, it's great to have caregivers, and people who dedicate themselves to maintaining a home and caring for young humans.
It's great to have those that take less of a direct hand in rearing children and do more to improve society through non-domestic labor.
Or anything in between. And that's just talking about vocation and labor. Those social roles are probably not inherently harmful, but divorcing them from gender expression is probably a net good.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Lets say I am looking to hire someone for a job. This job requires the employee to be able to move 50 lb (or 22.5 kilograms) object from point A to point B. When looking to hire job applicants, is it appropriate for me to test the applicant to make sure they can move a number of blocks from A->B?
Now lets say it a 25lb or 11 kg object. Is it fair for me to pay based on how many blocks are moved between point A to point B?
I do realize some women will be able to equally perform the task just as efficiently as men, the issue is and point of thought, if 50 men and 50 women applied and 40 men passed the test and 5 women passed the test and I was hiring 10 people should I hire 5 women and 5 men? Is that fair?
(Also a point of note that the statement should be "women are unequally represented in high academic and high paying fields", because certain fields like nursing and administrative assistant women have an overrepresentation which in itself is related to gender roles).
As I understand it, modern feminism doesn't really cast Men as the Be All, End All problem with society, but rather that, historically speaking, men have benefited from an the imbalance of power between the genders, and that that balance of power should shifted to equal footing for all. Especially where things like reproductive, political, and economic rights are concerned.
Their success in the matter is a different discussion all together.
So our choice is basically between being somewhat unfair to the men, or being absurdly unfair to women.
It's not a community I am familiar with, but the vitriol radical feminists have for trans folk is fucking disgusting.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
I agree but at the same time I'm yet to meet a transwoman who doesn't self identify as a feminist. So rotten elements aside it's not a label transwomen seem to reject.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Wait, were MRAs ever serious? I thought they were just assholes who trolled feminists from day one.