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The New (and On Notice) Obama Thread

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Posts

  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Democrats turning on Obama to try and score points with the right is insane. You are a democrat, YOU CAN NOT SCORE POINTS WITH THE PARTY THAT HATES YOU!

    B-b-b-but, independents!!!

    Psn:wazukki
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Democrats turning on Obama to try and score points with the right is insane. You are a democrat, YOU CAN NOT SCORE POINTS WITH THE PARTY THAT HATES YOU!

    It also hints that the Clintons are not going to update their tactics. This type of "run to the right" nonsense was frustrating in the 1990s. Today, it just feels crass and stale.

    chrishallett83shryke
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    in the 90s at least you'd get something. The current GOP will take everything you give and STILL LOATHE YOU no matter what

    zagdrobStollschrishallett83JihadJesusGnome-Interruptus
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Democrats turning on Obama to try and score points with the right is insane. You are a democrat, YOU CAN NOT SCORE POINTS WITH THE PARTY THAT HATES YOU!

    It also hints that the Clintons are not going to update their tactics. This type of "run to the right" nonsense was frustrating in the 1990s. Today, it just feels crass and stale.

    Yep its also lead to the Obama admin cleaning up run to the right legislation like DOMA and DADT. God knows what a new run to the right would achieve. More tax cuts for the ultra rich? An updates religious freedom exemption for christians to all laws?

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Oh Jeebus. If whoever runs on the D line doesn't just wholesale grab the OFA organization and technology they are incredibly stupid.

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    God knows repealing Glass Stegall wasn't the worst legislative decision in modern history

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Democrats turning on Obama to try and score points with the right is insane. You are a democrat, YOU CAN NOT SCORE POINTS WITH THE PARTY THAT HATES YOU!

    It also hints that the Clintons are not going to update their tactics. This type of "run to the right" nonsense was frustrating in the 1990s. Today, it just feels crass and stale.

    Yep its also lead to the Obama admin cleaning up run to the right legislation like DOMA and DADT. God knows what a new run to the right would achieve. More tax cuts for the ultra rich? An updates religious freedom exemption for christians to all laws?

    My guess from past actions is that with Clinton, we'd see huge sops to the corporate right and a flurry of meaningless nods toward "lifestyle" issues aimed at peeling off vulnerable segments of Republican voters and placating Democratic factions. This is the crowd that pioneered the tactic of courting the "soccer moms" and such by identifying and laser-focusing on fringe issues they believe will appeal to narrow demographic slices.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    in the 90s at least you'd get something. The current GOP will take everything you give and STILL LOATHE YOU no matter what

    What did Clinton get exactly? Other than Impeached? That's the issue with democratic politics in the US. We in theory get to govern when we capitulate, but that's bullshit "You gave us what we wanted so we let you do your job, you're welcome." Its like giving your kid candy so they don't stab you in the eye "You can see out of both eyes, You're welcome."

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    God knows repealing Glass Stegall wasn't the worst legislative decision in modern history

    repealing glass stegall didn't have much to do with 2009 any way since most of the places causing the trouble wouldn't have been regulated by it in the first place.

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Jars wrote: »
    God knows repealing Glass Stegall wasn't the worst legislative decision in modern history

    repealing glass stegall didn't have much to do with 2009 any way since most of the places causing the trouble wouldn't have been regulated by it in the first place.

    The size and scope of the megabanks is one of the things that's made us pretty much totally give up on financial regulations.

    Doodmannchrishallett83Stolls
  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Jars wrote: »
    God knows repealing Glass Stegall wasn't the worst legislative decision in modern history

    repealing glass stegall didn't have much to do with 2009 any way since most of the places causing the trouble wouldn't have been regulated by it in the first place.

    The size and scope of the megabanks is one of the things that's made us pretty much totally give up on financial regulations.

    It wasn't just what they were doing, it was the scale they were doing it on, which was definitely related to the repeal of Glass Stegall.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    Torchlight | Steam | ART
    Gnome-Interruptus
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Democrats turning on Obama to try and score points with the right is insane. You are a democrat, YOU CAN NOT SCORE POINTS WITH THE PARTY THAT HATES YOU!

    They just weren't trying hard enough the past 462,293 times!

    LxX6eco.jpg
    PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
    GethHarry Dresden
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Honestly Obama has been about as fair and even handed as you can be with the right wing in our country and all it did was drive them nuts. The idea that if we just this time give them what they want and they'll promise to play nice, or act responsibly is made up dc media bullshit.

    Its probably never been true, even the "Good ole days" probably sucked more than we remember.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
    GoumindongSpoitArdolchrishallett83shrykeStolls
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Honestly Obama has been about as fair and even handed as you can be with the right wing in our country and all it did was drive them nuts. The idea that if we just this time give them what they want and they'll promise to play nice, or act responsibly is made up dc media bullshit.

    Its probably never been true, even the "Good ole days" probably sucked more than we remember.

    And to be fair to the Clintons, they were vicious to the right wing as politicians. The problem was that their main political message was, "The conservatives are essentially right about everything but too incompetent and mean to get anything done."

    The main reason so many Democrats still embrace "run to the right" is that Clinton was masterful at it. It is just in hindsight that you realize so many of Clinton's wins were long-term losses for the nation.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    They definitely did. Go and read ye olde Buckley the father of the American Conservative "Intellectual" tradition. It was anything but intellectual. There never was a point in which the right played fair. Nixon sabotaged peace and broke into opponents campaign offices, Reagan sabotaged hostage negotiations, we don't even have to talk about the congress of Clinton and Obama.

    wbBv3fj.png
    GethGnome-Interruptusshryke
  • CapekCapek Registered User regular
    The issue is more distancing herself from the part of his Presidency that she was most directly responsible and was why she lost to him to begin with is maybe not the smartest political choice.

    Basically it seems like she's listening to Mark Penn again, which is not good.

    It's going to be a weird election cycle if it comes out to a Clinton/Paul contest.

    So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past. - Fitzgerald
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    So Obama.

    John Boehner once again is talking out of both sides of his mouth regarding the Obama admin.

    http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-speaker-wonderland#break

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • FakefauxFakefaux Cóiste Bodhar Driving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered User regular
    Capek wrote: »
    The issue is more distancing herself from the part of his Presidency that she was most directly responsible and was why she lost to him to begin with is maybe not the smartest political choice.

    Basically it seems like she's listening to Mark Penn again, which is not good.

    It's going to be a weird election cycle if it comes out to a Clinton/Paul contest.

    I think by "weird" you bean "beautiful."

  • CapekCapek Registered User regular
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    Capek wrote: »
    The issue is more distancing herself from the part of his Presidency that she was most directly responsible and was why she lost to him to begin with is maybe not the smartest political choice.

    Basically it seems like she's listening to Mark Penn again, which is not good.

    It's going to be a weird election cycle if it comes out to a Clinton/Paul contest.

    I think by "weird" you bean "beautiful."

    I don't need any more reasons to feel conflicted about Hillary. My basket is full.

    Voting for her over a candidate that was to her left on foreign policy/civil liberties issues would give me headaches from grinding my teeth.

    So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past. - Fitzgerald
  • AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    Capek wrote: »
    Fakefaux wrote: »
    Capek wrote: »
    The issue is more distancing herself from the part of his Presidency that she was most directly responsible and was why she lost to him to begin with is maybe not the smartest political choice.

    Basically it seems like she's listening to Mark Penn again, which is not good.

    It's going to be a weird election cycle if it comes out to a Clinton/Paul contest.

    I think by "weird" you bean "beautiful."

    I don't need any more reasons to feel conflicted about Hillary. My basket is full.

    Voting for her over a candidate that was to her left on foreign policy/civil liberties issues would give me headaches from grinding my teeth.

    I dunno. Paul may be technically left leaning in those areas, but he only gets there by going so far to the right he actually does loop back around. The government does have a hard time infringing your liberties when it barely exists.

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
    chrishallett83Gnome-InterruptusQuidTL DR
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Getting off topic, neither Hillary nor Paul are in the Obama admin.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    And apparently it isn't only Clinton

    It's the entire godamn party in the midterms

    http://www.politico.com/story/2014/08/2014-elections-democrats-midterms-109893.html

    fucking godamn inbeciles

    LxX6eco.jpg
    PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
    GethCantidochrishallett83
  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    I'm quickly turning into one of those people that is going to vote third party even if I'm "throwing my vote away" or helping the crazies. I need to feel like I'm at least doing something to stop the country from dragging everything right towards fascism.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    Torchlight | Steam | ART
  • Kid PresentableKid Presentable Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    What I find most strange about the Hilary Clinton thing isn't just the fact that a potential future candidate might want to distance themselves from Obama. I get that, at least as something that happens in politics even though I'm not convinced it's a good idea in this particular case. What I find so odd is that she chose this particular issue to do it with. I mean, is Obama's "don't do stupid stuff" mantra a remotely unpopular policy outside of the default group who is going to hate whatever he does because he's Obama? At least distance yourself on an issue that people actually care about! Isn't it pretty much a fact that the voting public is just sick of the boondoggle that is American Military Middle East Intervention?

    Putting aside the die-hard Republican voters who will never vote for a Hilary Clinton anyway, I just cannot imagine that there exists some huge swath of "Independent" voters out there who would totally vote Democrat if only we would fuck around in the Middle East a little bit more. Is there a rallying cry out there to get us more involved in more Middle East conflict? I'm sure not hearing it. If distancing oneself from Obama is the difference maker in getting a Democrat into office, fine, whatever, do it. Ends justify etc. I'm just baffled at what audience this particular distinction could possibly be catering to, which makes it seem just stupid instead of stupid but practical.

    Kid Presentable on
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I'm quickly turning into one of those people that is going to vote third party even if I'm "throwing my vote away" or helping the crazies. I need to feel like I'm at least doing something to stop the country from dragging everything right towards fascism.

    Voting third party will not achieve this goal.

    Some days I just want to smack people with a rolled up newspaper. Or a phone book.
    A folding chair is looking like an attractive option right now too...
    Gnome-InterruptusShadowfireSpoitCaptain CarrotMild ConfusionMvrckCaptain MarcusDoodmannAstaerethRhesus PositiveKing RiptorCorehealerzagdrobAngelHedgiePsychoLarry1TheBlackWind
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Its also really fucking easy to claim "You did this wrong" when you offer no viable solution in its place.

    Also as Obama pointed out, Iraq kicked us out of Iraq, unless we were not supposed to respect the wishes of another country and become a truly unwelcome military force.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
    Harry DresdenKid Presentable
  • AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I'm quickly turning into one of those people that is going to vote third party even if I'm "throwing my vote away" or helping the crazies. I need to feel like I'm at least doing something to stop the country from dragging everything right towards fascism.

    Voting third party will not achieve this goal.

    Voting in your primaries/supporting your favored primary canidate is the action you're looking for.

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
    Kid PresentableiTunesIsEvilMarathonGnome-InterruptusShadowfirejmcdonaldCaptain CarrotRchanenQuidCaptain Marcuschrishallett83CorehealerzagdrobPsychoLarry1emp123
  • jmcdonaldjmcdonald I voted, did you? DC(ish)Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Jars wrote: »
    God knows repealing Glass Stegall wasn't the worst legislative decision in modern history

    repealing glass stegall didn't have much to do with 2009 any way since most of the places causing the trouble wouldn't have been regulated by it in the first place.

    The size and scope of the megabanks is one of the things that's made us pretty much totally give up on financial regulations.

    It wasn't just what they were doing, it was the scale they were doing it on, which was definitely related to the repeal of Glass Stegall.

    it was the merging of investment banks with commercial/retail banks and the co-mingling of depository funds with investment funds that was one of the direct contributors to the 2008 recession (and near depression). This was a direct result of Glass-Stegall being repealed. IIRC Travelers/Citi was the first "MEGA" that arose due to this terrible bit of legislative idiocy.

    shryke wrote: »
    ...Barack "charisma isn't a dump stat, nerds" Obama...
    Gnome-InterruptusDoodmannchrishallett83
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Aioua wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I'm quickly turning into one of those people that is going to vote third party even if I'm "throwing my vote away" or helping the crazies. I need to feel like I'm at least doing something to stop the country from dragging everything right towards fascism.

    Voting third party will not achieve this goal.

    Voting in your primaries/supporting your favored primary canidate is the action you're looking for.

    That assumes any primary candidate is actually good.

    Also what do you do when they lose?

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Try again and better next time.

    Some days I just want to smack people with a rolled up newspaper. Or a phone book.
    A folding chair is looking like an attractive option right now too...
    iTunesIsEvilKid PresentableenlightenedbumCorehealerzagdrob
  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Aioua wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I'm quickly turning into one of those people that is going to vote third party even if I'm "throwing my vote away" or helping the crazies. I need to feel like I'm at least doing something to stop the country from dragging everything right towards fascism.

    Voting third party will not achieve this goal.

    Voting in your primaries/supporting your favored primary canidate is the action you're looking for.

    That assumes any primary candidate is actually good.

    Also what do you do when they lose?

    Give up and whine explain that no one appreciates how right you are and how wrong everyone else is and then sit on the sidelines to teach everyone a lesson in how important you and your opinions are. (noooooot saying this is what Doodmann is doing, just so we're clear; this is a thing Democratic [less so Republican, in the "sit on the sidelines" sense] voters do all the time)

    But really, what Bri said.

    jmcdonald
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I'm quickly turning into one of those people that is going to vote third party even if I'm "throwing my vote away" or helping the crazies. I need to feel like I'm at least doing something to stop the country from dragging everything right towards fascism.

    Voting third party will not achieve this goal.

    I don't know about that. The Tea Party might as well be considered a third party at this point and they certainly prove the adage of getting shit done on the local level first. Voting third party in a national election...probably not going to solve anything, beyond making a statement that neither major party can provide you with a viable candidate. But I do think there's value there, especially considering how fractious and broken congress is; this is a time pregnant with possibility for radicals and reformers.

    As to Boehner:
    This kind of chutzpah is kind of scary. Boehner seems to think we’re fools, unable to remember what he said and did just a few months ago, and unable to access Google long enough to check.

    I can appreciate the Speaker’s frustration – he’s proven himself incapable of governing, and when he tries, his own members betray him – but that’s no excuse for shameless dishonesty.

    It seems pretty clear that he no longer gives a shit. He gave up trying to wrangle the republicans, he knows full well neither the media or the Obama administration will hold his feet to the fire in any real way, and that as long as he gives a few token angry statements the press, his position as speaker is completely safe, especially now that Cantor is gone. Obama must read this shit and just laugh.

    Dark_Side on
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Aioua wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I'm quickly turning into one of those people that is going to vote third party even if I'm "throwing my vote away" or helping the crazies. I need to feel like I'm at least doing something to stop the country from dragging everything right towards fascism.

    Voting third party will not achieve this goal.

    Voting in your primaries/supporting your favored primary canidate is the action you're looking for.

    That assumes any primary candidate is actually good.

    Also what do you do when they lose?

    To the first, run yourself, or get further involved with a candidate to shape their positions and messaging closer to what you want and believe to be the correct positions for both governing and winning.

    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I'm quickly turning into one of those people that is going to vote third party even if I'm "throwing my vote away" or helping the crazies. I need to feel like I'm at least doing something to stop the country from dragging everything right towards fascism.

    Voting third party will not achieve this goal.

    I don't know about that. The Tea Party might as well be considered a third party at this point and they certainly prove the adage of getting shit done on the local level first. Voting third party in a national election...probably not going to solve anything, beyond making a statement that neither major party can provide you with a viable candidate. But I do think there's value there, especially considering how fractious and broken congress is; this is a time pregnant with possibility for radicals and reformers.

    The Tea Party is counter productive to the Republican Party. They steal seats in secure Republican districts by running to the right of their opponent in the primary and win by default in the general because of gerrymandering. In closer elections they sabotage Republican efforts by producing an unelectable general candidate and practically handing the position to the Democrats.

    The only thing they do is make the Republican Party more extreme in secure seats and less viable in contested elections. Are you suggesting that as a model for the US left to follow?

    Edit: Also, its not a third party technically since the Tea Party candidates run as Republicans and participate in Republican primaries.

    Jephery on
    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    OBAMA THREAD!

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
    RchanenGnome-Interruptuszagdrob
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I'm quickly turning into one of those people that is going to vote third party even if I'm "throwing my vote away" or helping the crazies. I need to feel like I'm at least doing something to stop the country from dragging everything right towards fascism.

    This was me when I was younger, except I was worried people were dragging the country too far to the left toward socialism/anarchy.

    I was young and stupid.

    Now I realize that voting third party in the presidential election gets you nothing but the win for the one you think is crazy. Vote for third parties in local elections, let the third parties build themselves up. They don't just get to throw their hat in the ring and get the big chair because they cry about the two party system. The libertarians/greens/unity/whatever party needs to build up their cred on their own.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
    CptKemzikDoodmann
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I'm quickly turning into one of those people that is going to vote third party even if I'm "throwing my vote away" or helping the crazies. I need to feel like I'm at least doing something to stop the country from dragging everything right towards fascism.

    Voting third party will not achieve this goal.

    I don't know about that. The Tea Party might as well be considered a third party at this point and they certainly prove the adage of getting shit done on the local level first. Voting third party in a national election...probably not going to solve anything, beyond making a statement that neither major party can provide you with a viable candidate. But I do think there's value there, especially considering how fractious and broken congress is; this is a time pregnant with possibility for radicals and reformers.

    The Tea Party is counter productive to the Republican Party. They steal seats in secure Republican districts by running to the right of their opponent in the primary and win by default in the general because of gerrymandering. In closer elections they sabotage Republican efforts by producing an unelectable general candidate and practically handing the position to the Democrats.

    The only thing they do is make the Republican Party more extreme in secure seats and less viable in contested elections. Are you suggesting that as a model for the US left to follow?

    Not at all. I don't think the model should be emulated. I'm saying they show the signs (or did) of becoming a viable 3rd party. But it's off topic so I will leave it at that.

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    I'm quickly turning into one of those people that is going to vote third party even if I'm "throwing my vote away" or helping the crazies. I need to feel like I'm at least doing something to stop the country from dragging everything right towards fascism.

    Voting third party will not achieve this goal.

    I don't know about that. The Tea Party might as well be considered a third party at this point and they certainly prove the adage of getting shit done on the local level first. Voting third party in a national election...probably not going to solve anything, beyond making a statement that neither major party can provide you with a viable candidate. But I do think there's value there, especially considering how fractious and broken congress is; this is a time pregnant with possibility for radicals and reformers.

    The Tea Party is counter productive to the Republican Party. They steal seats in secure Republican districts by running to the right of their opponent in the primary and win by default in the general because of gerrymandering. In closer elections they sabotage Republican efforts by producing an unelectable general candidate and practically handing the position to the Democrats.

    The only thing they do is make the Republican Party more extreme in secure seats and less viable in contested elections. Are you suggesting that as a model for the US left to follow?

    Edit: Also, its not a third party technically since the Tea Party candidates run as Republicans and participate in Republican primaries.

    The Tea Party is doing an amazing amount of damage in the state level legislatures, many of which they control. By strangling the federal government through inaction while radically refunding and restructuring the states they control, they are making their corporate sponsors very happy.

    chrishallett83SyphonBlue
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Jars wrote: »
    God knows repealing Glass Stegall wasn't the worst legislative decision in modern history

    repealing glass stegall didn't have much to do with 2009 any way since most of the places causing the trouble wouldn't have been regulated by it in the first place.

    The size and scope of the megabanks is one of the things that's made us pretty much totally give up on financial regulations.

    It wasn't just what they were doing, it was the scale they were doing it on, which was definitely related to the repeal of Glass Stegall.

    It's also what they were doing. If Glass Stegall were still in effect the investment banks wouldn't have had their hands on that mortgage money at all. the bubble would've still happened most likely but the mortgage securities themselves wouldn't have been bound up in a morass of derivatives that poisoned the entire financial system

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    I really would like to not have a 2016 primary thread until the midterms are over. Just like, for my sanity. Don't make us start a God Damn Separate Thread, please.

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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This discussion has been closed.