The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Family drama over deceased's camera
Ianator
A predator cannot differentiatebetween prey and accompliceRegistered User regular
A predator cannot differentiatebetween prey and accompliceRegistered User regular
My father passed away a month ago. His residence at that point was somewhat unsecure (window could be opened and entered from outside) so his two sisters and their kids got a few of the higher-value items out. One of these sisters (I'll call her Aunt E) took a camera bag and said, "Well, I'm taking this!" and immediately left.
Aunt E had boarded my dad for some time previously and stored his belongings (and still is). In the time since, my dad's favorite camera (body, lenses and bag) disappeared; Aunt E's husband pitched in $500 for a replacement camera set, the one she is in possession of currently. I have all the retail packaging for the camera bits with an MSRP of over $900 for just the body and one of the lenses (the bag had three lenses plus the body and accessories).
Aunt E also houses one of her sons. This son has a criminal record, including stealing a dirtbike from one of his cousins, and my dad believed he stole and pawned the camera. Aunt E refuses to believe her son stole anything and insists that the new camera belongs to her because her husband contributed towards it. I stated I would drop the matter if they could find the original camera set (which I think may come back to bite me in the ass as Aunt E's son said he'd try to find the original). My mother offered to pay off the amount contributed; Aunt E flatly refused and stated the matter was closed. Then dropped both me and my mom from her Facebook.
In the absence of a will, and as my father's only son, I believe I have an entitlement to the camera - not just because I'm his son but because of my belief that "Aunt E has stolen from my dad, just like her son stole from my dad". I simply cannot reconcile it with my desire to not burn any bridges. I have no hard proof that the camera isn't still in her garage somewhere with other boxes of her stuff but I (vaguely) remember my dad mentioning his camera bag was in the closet rather than the garage (frequently open to the street) specifically to keep it from being stolen.
I guess what I'm wondering is,
1) Is it worth pursuing legal action (small claims court) to get it back?
2) Am I morally justified in trying to get it back?
3) How badly can my offer on the previous camera come back to bite me in the ass?
I'm obviously not asking for legal advice (my mom's a paralegal) but I just feel like I need some outside perspective on the matter.
Aunt E had boarded my dad for some time previously and stored his belongings (and still is). In the time since, my dad's favorite camera (body, lenses and bag) disappeared; Aunt E's husband pitched in $500 for a replacement camera set, the one she is in possession of currently. I have all the retail packaging for the camera bits with an MSRP of over $900 for just the body and one of the lenses (the bag had three lenses plus the body and accessories).
Aunt E also houses one of her sons. This son has a criminal record, including stealing a dirtbike from one of his cousins, and my dad believed he stole and pawned the camera. Aunt E refuses to believe her son stole anything and insists that the new camera belongs to her because her husband contributed towards it. I stated I would drop the matter if they could find the original camera set (which I think may come back to bite me in the ass as Aunt E's son said he'd try to find the original). My mother offered to pay off the amount contributed; Aunt E flatly refused and stated the matter was closed. Then dropped both me and my mom from her Facebook.
In the absence of a will, and as my father's only son, I believe I have an entitlement to the camera - not just because I'm his son but because of my belief that "Aunt E has stolen from my dad, just like her son stole from my dad". I simply cannot reconcile it with my desire to not burn any bridges. I have no hard proof that the camera isn't still in her garage somewhere with other boxes of her stuff but I (vaguely) remember my dad mentioning his camera bag was in the closet rather than the garage (frequently open to the street) specifically to keep it from being stolen.
I guess what I'm wondering is,
1) Is it worth pursuing legal action (small claims court) to get it back?
2) Am I morally justified in trying to get it back?
3) How badly can my offer on the previous camera come back to bite me in the ass?
I'm obviously not asking for legal advice (my mom's a paralegal) but I just feel like I need some outside perspective on the matter.
Twitch | Blizzard: Ianator#1479 | 3DS: Ianator - 1779 2336 5317 | FFXIV: Iana Ateliere (NA Sarg)
Backlog Challenge List
Ianator on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
1. No
2. Yes, but irrelevant
3. No idea
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Twitch | Blizzard: Ianator#1479 | 3DS: Ianator - 1779 2336 5317 | FFXIV: Iana Ateliere (NA Sarg)
Backlog Challenge List
Anyway, legal action is going to get messy. It'll be a massive time commitment. You may wind up paying more in legal fees than that camera costs. Unless this new camera has a lot of emotional value, I probably wouldn't bother. I understand that this is a matter of principal, and I can sympathize with the sentiment, but this doesn't seem worth it.
Your aunt should know that since she gave the camera to your father, she doesn't have a right to it. When somebody dies, you don't get back all the birthday gifts you ever gave them. That's not how it works. Legally, as your father's child, you have more of a right to it than she does. Although you'd have more of a case with a will or something along those lines stating your father's wishes regarding his possessions.
I don't know why you think your offer on the previous camera could "bite you in the ass" seeing as that's the one your father liked and used more often. To me, that would be the camera worth fighting over in the first place, since it was your dad's favorite. But if you get it back, see if you have some kind of evidence proving its condition, or a means to identify it so they can't buy a broken used version of the original camera and try to call it good. (Which unfortunately is something my Aunt has done before, although she made copies of 50 year old photos and tried to pretend they were the originals.)
1) To you personally or to you financially? The first maybe yes, the second probably not.
2) Yes.
3) Come on, they don't have that camera.
As for me, I'm off to bed.
Twitch | Blizzard: Ianator#1479 | 3DS: Ianator - 1779 2336 5317 | FFXIV: Iana Ateliere (NA Sarg)
Backlog Challenge List
Don't get stuck in the middle of a pissing contest between your mom and your aunt, there is no upside for you there. If it's between you and your aunt then only you can decide if it's worth it. I do think the mentality of not "allowing a crime to go unpunished" amongst family is kinda fucked in the head and drama-bait. If you want to fight for the camera then make it about that and not about meting out "justice".
Is the original gear even around? Cause I agree w/Creagan that that is the only thing that might be worth fighting for. $2K in camera gear means almost nothing without any kind of context. I bought my camera body for around $1K 10 years ago, I'd be lucky to get $100-150 for it. The lenses have kept their value a bit better, but for what I originally invested I could get better glass cheaper now.
1) Just let it go and forget about it. Seems to be already written off.
2) Make a big thing about this, threaten to prosecute. Guarantee large family drama and a massive rift between your immediate family and your aunt's family, maybe (very unlikely) get a camera out if it.
3) Let the whole thing go. People like this aren't worth dealing with. You have no aunt apart from when formal functions demand you interact.
Now my personal view is that a camera is material shit and not worth any emotional turmoil over. So I'd go with option 1. If option 1 is really off the table, then option 3 seems like the path of least emotional turmoil.
Sure it's hard to walk away from family, but given the choice of actively entering conflict with or walking away from family, I'd much rather the latter.
I disagree because this happens with, like, half of the family deaths I've ever seen. It's not stealing, because it's a question of how people feel belongings are rightfully distributed. Yes, the aunt is wrong, but she doesn't know she's wrong, she doesn't feel wrong, etc. perspective.
This is family shit that happens all the time.
I just agree with Jam Warrior. Assholes in the family get away with this shit when someone beloved passes, but I'd much rather just let this sort of thing go and honor the memory of the person who passed than have a family blood war over a couple hundred bucks.
If so, how much time and energy are you prepared to expend making it happen? If the answer is 'potentially a lot,' then go ahead and initiate legal action via small claims. If your answer is anything other than that, just let it go.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
1) It depends on what you mean by 'worth it'. Financially worth it? Very unlikely. Worth it because of the principle? Possible, but that's really something that can only be assessed by you.
2) It sounds like it, yes.
3) I'm honestly not sure what you mean. Like, if they retain legal counsel and say, "He made [X] offer on this other camera!" ? It's possible that this would hurt you in court, but court battles are sort-of a coin flip and I'm not a legal expert, so it's hard to say.
The camera is probably gone already. This is one of the unfortunate things that happens when family members die: deadbeats in the family will show up and treat the estate of the deceased like it's their own little fucking garage sale (and this is why Wills are important, and why all of that related legal infrastructure has been established). So, whatever you choose to do, do it while bearing in mind that you will not be getting the camera back regardless.
Very sorry for your loss.
Anecdote:
One of my mother's uncles was an aviation & automobile enthusiast; he owned two airplanes and several classic cars, including a big old Lincoln that was his pride & joy. In the family, that car was iconic, and a part of who my great uncle was.
When he passed away, his deadbeat brother cleaned-out his clothing closet (...why the fuck do they always go for the clothing of all things? Is there really a big pawn market for that shit?) and literally just drove-off with the Lincoln, selling it for a fraction of it's actual dollar value.
You could say that the car was just material stuff, but nobody in my family saw it that way. There was a brief court battle, and a much longer (and still ongoing, though it's fading) family feud between the elderly folks on my mother's side (deadbeat brother was legitimately broke, and he stole the car / clothing out of desperation, and a few people didn't see it as wrong) - but my mother says it was one of the most worthwhile things she ever did, just to have the experience & satisfaction of watching a judge tell deadbeat brother that he was wrong, and would have to compensate the estate, and watching deadbeat brother bawl his head off all the while.
Obviously that isn't going to be worth it for everyone, but for some people in some circumstances, it clearly is.
Nobody ever stopped her, or told her she was wrong for doing any of this. The worst thing that ever happened to her was when my mom finally snapped after years of physical abuse and spanked her with a shoe after my aunt clawed up her arms while attempting to make my mom miss a flight to Europe. (So my aunt switched to stealing and verbal harassment.) When my grandfather dies, I sincerely hope we do enter a long, drawn out legal battle just so that woman can get the legal slap in the face she deserves. (Although my mom says she's not going to bother.)
Ceres is right- a rift isn't a bad thing. I clearly despise my aunt, not just because of what she did to my mom- her treatment of me was abhorrent as well. (She only spoke to me in short, simple sentences while using a slow baby-voice for three years after finding out I'm dyslexic.) But I have to see that woman on the holidays ever year, and I have to brief any roommate I have on what her family looks like and why we can't let them into the apartment if they randomly show up. It's a freaking nightmare.
But we don't intend to let this be a drawn-out legal battle, just a presentation-and-judgement in Small Claims aimed at finally disciplining Aunt E for enabling her son's thefts.
Twitch | Blizzard: Ianator#1479 | 3DS: Ianator - 1779 2336 5317 | FFXIV: Iana Ateliere (NA Sarg)
Backlog Challenge List
But what good will this do? Nothing. Just don't talk to them any more, at least any more than you have to. This will not end up with them weeping and begging your forgiveness. They will learn nothing, and you will gain nothing. It'll cost more than $900 of stress.
I'd argue that closure and vindication could be pretty good things. Of course, that's coming from somebody who will probably never get either of those things with her family. But I think they'd be nice things to experience.
Bingo. You can't make your shittier relatives give you closure by a legal battle. IMO the only thing you can (and should!) do is avoid these family members, advise them that they are no longer welcome in your home. Same effect as a legal battle, but without the stress and money loss involved.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Family are people you can rely on, be a generally positive influence, and who will mutually support one another. From my experience, this has very little to do with biology. Getting negative influences out of your life is compensation in itself.
Look, at least for me, closure isn't about "winning" a final confrontation, or getting the other party to admit they were wrong. It's about having somebody with a position of authority tell those people that your feelings are legitimate and you're not the bad guy.
I may not have gotten that, and probably never will, in regards to my family. But I experienced something similar regarding teachers who were very vocal about how I'd never do well in live because I have a learning disability. Getting into the University of Chicago was the most vindicating experience I've ever had in my life, because it proved to me that everything they'd said about me was wrong. I did deserve those test scores. I did belong in those honors classes. Taking those AP tests wasn't a hopeless waste of my time. Getting into the harder classes wasn't just a "fluke" that occasionally happened with "people like me." All that self-doubt evaporated, which in a sense did give me closure even though I never confronted any of the people who said those things. And I feel like those feelings are worth a court battle. They were certainly worth the hours and hours of studying, ACT practice, and essay-writing.
This is not a good idea, psychologically. People in authority can be idiots like the rest of us. Judges have the job of resolving disputes that cannot be resolved satisfactorily to both parties. They are not in the role of validating your life choices.
They may well judge a case with one good person and one terrible person and award the terrible person the case because that's what the law says. That is not validating the terrible person in any way. Let's imagine an elderly person dies and had always told their friend next door that their car can be theirs when they die, because the friend had always helped out the older person when they needed it. Meanwhile the old person's lazy son has ignored his parent for many years, except to borrow money. But the old person never left a will. Legally, the car is the son's. This does not validate the son in any way. The neighbour is the better person, and the judge may think they are the better person. But that makes no difference to the job of the judge in small claims court.
Seek validation from yourself, your peers, and the people you love, not authority figures. They cannot give it.
I can't tell if this is in response to my advice, or in response to advice that Ianator take it to court. I don't think shutting someone out of your life, who has shown they are fine with damaging your life and mental health, is "revenge." It's self protection. You know someone is going to steal your stuff if they get in proximity to it, your only recourse is to not give them proximity.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
It was in response to Creagan not to you. I don't believe that the OP will get the revenge/vindication/closure that they desire. I agree that they should just cut their relatives out of their life. I don't think they should take them to court.
My uncle stole a bunch of stuff and sped off right after the funeral of my grandfather. we simply cut ties, and have never spoken to him again, and my om and i are very ok with that end result. if they would prefer to value an object over their own blood, so be it.
My mom has prepared a Letter of Demand but I am still wavering somewhat. While I would rather just excise them from my life and be done with it she's quite insistent that such a response would be enabling their behavior - by instead taking action and sending a proper demand I can show them that I will not tolerate "being bullied".
Yes, I have let my mom know on several occasions during this that I feel almost as bullied by her. I do recognize she wants what's best for me. I am someone who avoids conflict and, as discussed above, I don't want to drag everyone into court only to either be told I'm wrong or wind up being starved of cash over a camera like a Bay Area startup being litigated out of solvency by Big Business.
I know this isn't the Debate & Discussion forum but your continued viewpoints feel like an extra conscience that I feel in desperate need of.
Twitch | Blizzard: Ianator#1479 | 3DS: Ianator - 1779 2336 5317 | FFXIV: Iana Ateliere (NA Sarg)
Backlog Challenge List
You shouldn't let yourself feel bullied by your mom. It feels from what you're saying that while this was about your camera and your dad's memory as far as you're concerned, none of this has anything to do with any of that stuff for her in all likelihood, and almost certainly nothing to do with you. I know that probably sounds backwards, but this isn't about your grief - it's about hers. It sounds like she needs to do this, and you and I and the people here can't possibly understand what emotional value she places in, for better or worse, having her case heard by a third party with the authority to make a judgment put on paper for anyone to see.
So I would say it will go best for you if you just let her get it out of her system. Just realize that this is more about her and her feelings about your father's death and his family than it is about whether or not you get a camera. Many here think of their families as warm blankets and feel we should transcend these petty material squabbles because family is important and nobody is perfect, especially when someone dies. The problem with that is that it fails to take into account years and even upbringings of emotional abuse at the hands of people who would not hesitate to rob you blind for the most transient minor personal gain while everyone around you tells you to suck it up because FAMILY, which in my humble opinion is such bullshit, and just as damaging as the problem behavior.
In the end, even a total win may end up leaving her feeling hollow as the anger from the aftermath of his death is sated, leaving grief in its place. Alternatively, a total loss may feel like a win to her because she's shown herself and those people that she will have them answer for their literal crimes when no one else will, and that is very empowering. However it turns out, it sounds like, right now at least, she needs this. It would be ideal if she could just let it go, but it's not unhealthy to hope that someone in the world gives enough of a shit that you've been stolen from to at least acknowledge it.
I think I'm finally starting to feel like this is something I can go through with.
Hrm. Time to go to a funeral.
Twitch | Blizzard: Ianator#1479 | 3DS: Ianator - 1779 2336 5317 | FFXIV: Iana Ateliere (NA Sarg)
Backlog Challenge List
Do you want to know what split my family in half?
A crappy/cheap painting of the last supper that was hung in their dining room. My older sister helped him hang it when she was a little kid and that was one of her favorite memories. No idea why.
My half-aunt(that's a thing?) decided she had more right to it and had it in a pile of crap that she was taking from the house.
My sister grabbed it and went home with this one thing.
Now 3 of my aunts and one uncle won't talk to the other 3 aunts (they were a Scottish family, a.k.a HUGE)
Family drama is stupid and all it's doing now is stopping my son from knowing his aunts and uncle for no good fucking reason.
I really wish you the best, I hope you recover the camera and can still have some resemblance of a relationship with the Aunt E.
― John Quincy Adams
...Courtroom or otherwise. At this rate the anxiety's gonna give me an ulcer.
Twitch | Blizzard: Ianator#1479 | 3DS: Ianator - 1779 2336 5317 | FFXIV: Iana Ateliere (NA Sarg)
Backlog Challenge List
This is basically what I was trying to get across earlier, @CelestialBadger . It felt good to have somebody else (particularly somebody who's opinion mattered to both me and my teachers) acknowledge that I was being wronged, and essentially "prove" my feelings were valid.
And in a perfect world, yes, you should only need validation from yourself, your peers, and the people you love. But you know what? That doesn't mean anything in real life. People are horrible judges of their own capabilities. Your peers and the people you love will lie to you to make you feel better. Publishing companies & literary agents turn away most of the work submitted to them because it's created by people who think they're good at writing, who have been told they're good at writing, but who actually suck at writing. So validation from authority figures matters.
I understand the feeling, and it is valid. But I feel it's not going to happen.
If the aunt cared how you felt about this, she'd have never taken the camera in the first place.
The judge won't truly care, because if he cared about every little case that came through his court, he'd be a basket case in no time - he will keep a professional separation. To him it will be a boring dispute over <$1000 of goods. To you it will be a judgement on which of you is a better person.
It's not like an editor judging whether a novel is good or not. It's like sending your life story to an editor, and feeling that his rejection means that your life story is worthless - when in fact he has judged that there are too many memoirs of this type on the market at the moment, and none of them are selling well. He might have been moved to tears by the struggles depicted in your memoir and dearly wish you success, but he's not going to publish a book that won't sell.
I think if you want impartial people to care - we all care here.
And speaking from the mother's point of view, I think the issue more is that she wants somebody to tell the aunt that she can't just keep steamrolling other people. That she can't get what she wants by throwing a tantrum. Winning the court case would achieve that, and thus provide her with closure. (Now whether or not the OP decides he feels the same way is a different story.) From what I've heard, it sounds like legally they have enough of a case. No will as far as we've been told, it's aunt vs. son. Son has the legal right to father's belongings.
Personally, I'd go through with the court case, then cut the toxic relatives out of my life.
So, here's the thing. I feel like may be worth it if it will give your mom a sense of closure even if it might mean less to you... but not if it's going to make you physically ill. It's still your name and your decision, don't be pushed into it. If you do it, do it because you agree that in the end it will be worth it on some level. Don't thrust yourself in the middle at your own expense if there is nothing emotionally in it for you.