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The Right to Stab Bears: On the [Lack of a Knife Control Thread]
_J_
PedantRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
PedantRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
This morning, 20 People were injured in a Stabbing at a Pennsylvania High School
Historically, in the wake of a shooting, school or otherwise, the media and general political apparatus will ramp up the anti-gun rhetoric. More interestingly, at least for us, D&D will see an increase in Gun Control related debate. Usually, a new thread is spawned for the sake of fostering that conversation, based upon the particular instance of gun violence. Here is a non-comprehensive list of examples:
Fort Hood Shooting Again – April 2, 2014
Colorado School Shooting – December, 2013
LAX Shooting – November 2013
Navy Yard Shooting – September 2013
Gun Violence – January 2013
Oregon Shooting – December 2012
Gun Responsibility – September 2012
Second Amendment – August 2012
When a shooting occurs in a school, we see a new thread and an increase in gun control rhetoric. When 20 people are stabbed in a school, we see no response.
I find this to be curious.
More curious is the fact that, as far as I can tell, the only thread we have had about knife violence is the Knife Crime Thread from 2008. I would like to think that we do not consider the victims of gun violence to be more worthy than the victims of knife violence, or mass stabbings to be more acceptable than mass shootings. Unfortunately, the evidence seems to suggest that this is not the case. When a group is shot we say it is a tragedy. When a group is stabbed…something else.
How do we explain this? Are we comfortable with this? Does this seem odd to anyone else? Are knives more acceptable? Are guns easier to vilify? Other than the tools used, how does a mass stabbing differ from a mass shooting, such that one results in conversation and the other results in silence?
Just to be clear: We have a Gun Control Thread. This thread is not, specifically, about gun control. If you want to talk about gun control, this is not the thread for that. This is a thread for talking about why we talk about non-gun violence differently than gun violence.
Historically, in the wake of a shooting, school or otherwise, the media and general political apparatus will ramp up the anti-gun rhetoric. More interestingly, at least for us, D&D will see an increase in Gun Control related debate. Usually, a new thread is spawned for the sake of fostering that conversation, based upon the particular instance of gun violence. Here is a non-comprehensive list of examples:
Fort Hood Shooting Again – April 2, 2014
Colorado School Shooting – December, 2013
LAX Shooting – November 2013
Navy Yard Shooting – September 2013
Gun Violence – January 2013
Oregon Shooting – December 2012
Gun Responsibility – September 2012
Second Amendment – August 2012
When a shooting occurs in a school, we see a new thread and an increase in gun control rhetoric. When 20 people are stabbed in a school, we see no response.
I find this to be curious.
More curious is the fact that, as far as I can tell, the only thread we have had about knife violence is the Knife Crime Thread from 2008. I would like to think that we do not consider the victims of gun violence to be more worthy than the victims of knife violence, or mass stabbings to be more acceptable than mass shootings. Unfortunately, the evidence seems to suggest that this is not the case. When a group is shot we say it is a tragedy. When a group is stabbed…something else.
How do we explain this? Are we comfortable with this? Does this seem odd to anyone else? Are knives more acceptable? Are guns easier to vilify? Other than the tools used, how does a mass stabbing differ from a mass shooting, such that one results in conversation and the other results in silence?
Just to be clear: We have a Gun Control Thread. This thread is not, specifically, about gun control. If you want to talk about gun control, this is not the thread for that. This is a thread for talking about why we talk about non-gun violence differently than gun violence.
_J_ on
+1
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
PA stabbings:
21 injured, 0 dead.
Newtown shootings:
26 dead at scene, 28 if you include mother and suicide of shooter.
Curiosity sated.
21 injured, 0 dead.
21 injured, 0 dead.
It's a question of how much damage is done. Stabbing someone is a potential way to kill them, and should never be thought of as not dangerous, however, it happens far more rarely and it's far less likely to end up with a bunch of dead children.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
gun enthusiasts will tell you that it's difficult or impossible to meaningfully restrict guns because of culture or ubiquity or constitutionality or whatever
but knives are literally just a sharp hard thing. they were probably the first crafted tool. many of them are in nearly every household in the US. the ability to restrict the purchase or ownership of knives is i believe legislatively impossible.
so it's not i guess a particularly interesting discussion
imo
This 108 page thread was spawned from a shooting that resulted in 3 deaths. The LAX thread was 3 wounded.
"# of people harmed / killed" does not seem to be a reliable rubric.
Also, "It's ok so long as no one died" seems like a problematic approach to violence.
So maybe there is lack of space for people to care about knives in your country due to the gun debate.
The gun debate not being a debate in the UK might account for our knife obsession.
First, there is literally no way you could do any sort of meaningful "knife control" the way you could gun control, because a cooking knife is equally as deadly as a switch blade or bowie knife. Knives in general serve a very useful purpose that could not realistically be achieved through a non-knife solution.
Second, there is an order of magnitude in difference between the threat a person with a knife poses and that of someone armed with a firearm. A knife requires you to close to within arm's reach of a person (ignoring the possibility of thrown knives, as that requires significantly more skill to be damaging with and removes the knife from the aggressor), whereas a gun can be used effectively from range with a minimal amount of skill, particularly in the types of situations that are spawning these conversations. Similarly, a gun transforms anyone of any size and physical prowess into a deadly threat against anyone else, where a knife only enhances the danger posed by someone naturally.
It is no less disturbing that someone took it upon themselves to inflict violence with a knife than with a gun, but there is less to be done on the prevention front in regards to the mechanism used in the case of a knife. There is still a perfectly valid point to be made for better mental health services in both scenarios though.
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20-something kids stabbed there, and I'm pretty sure none died. That paled in comparison to Newtown, where I'm pretty sure everyone who was injured died.
If we could replace all the mass shootings with mass stabbings, hell - if we could replace all shootings with stabbings - I'd be quite happy (although, while no shootings / stabbings would be best, I'm not going to make perfect the enemy of better).
Let me know when we have a fatal mass stabbing in the U.S. Let me know when we have several of them over a period of a few years.
It is a reliable rubric, there's a direct correlation, you've just chosen to ignore it.
Knives are random tools everyone owns. Guns are used to shoot bullets to kill things.
The answers to all of your questions are self-evident and have already been offered to you in this thread. It appears you have some other issue you wish to discuss.
Fatalities = gun thread.
No fatalities = no knife thread.
Guns are devices used to kill people = argument about gun control.
Knives are sharp things = no argument about knife control.
this is really obtuse
A gun violence thread isn't just about that one incident and you know it, it's about the cumulative effect of gun violence in our culture
you know that, you know it's impossible to legislate knives, you know the difference
and yes number of fatalities is pretty important
See, that's what I find interesting. The degree to which we privilege cultural norms and the understood status quo as a guideline for possibility. In the U.S., we say that gun nuts are...well...gun nuts for their inability to imagine a world wherein gun access is restricted. But when it comes to knives, we throw up our hands and say "well, it was the first tool ever...so...you can't ban that." when just across the ocean there were attempts to do just that. And, as you said, there were knife collection bins akin to our gun collection bins.
That is weird.
We've gone on for dozens / hundreds of pages about ways guns can be available for those people with a recognized need, but in a way that minimizes the risk posed to the public. Pretty much any use-based requirements for guns, either limiting ownership to people with a recognized need, or limiting the available guns to specific purposes has been denied as an infringement of rights.
Of course, push daggers and switchblades are generally banned outright...but I guess it's fair to say that's comparable to destructive devices.
EDIT - Why do we always call it 'bans' even when it's better described as 'reasonable restrictions'? Nobody is banning cooking knives from kitchens in the UK.
Every knife sales point is like that here. It is a little like buying booze when under age. It is one of the signs that you've left the UK when you can wander down the street and shops just can advertise knives openly, I.e most of Europe.
Not only is restricting knives pragmatically infeasible, but they're also not as exotic. A lot of people have an emotional reaction to simply being in the same room as a gun. Outside of a handful of fetishists, hobbyists, and self-cutters, nobody has an emotional reaction to simply being in the same room as a knife.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Yeah, the gov.uk site for knife laws is quite interesting.
I imagine that would be one of the laws U.S. citizens deem "impossible".
First of all, there are many, many restrictions on knives in almost every state! Seriously your entire argument is upon a foundation of shit to begin with, knives are already more regulated than guns in most places
Second, "mass stabbings" don't leave piles of dead children because knives aren't as good as killing people as guns
Third, knives are required for everything from opening a box to cooking. Guns are for entertainment or for killing.
Pages 1-3: Various people point out that knife sprees have virtually no casualties while gun sprees have large numbers of casualties.
Pages 4-5: _J_ points out that it doesn't matter if you die from a knife or a gun, because dead is dead either way, and it's silly to level extra scrutiny on guns. People reiterate that killing people with guns is much easier, as established by the fact that gun sprees result in more deaths than knife sprees.
Pages 6-10: An argument about what is death really, and anyway, what is this consciousness thing?
Pages 11-12: A brief tangent on the definition of "pizza" and if the Americanized version really counts.
Page 13: A mod comes in to yell at everyone about their stupid goddamn pizza tangent, and anyway American pizza is fucking rad, shut up.
Pages 14-15: Everyone from the first 10 pages of the thread gives up and leaves. Twelve new people wander into the thread to say, "I'm just jumping in here, but isn't it pretty clear that <insert every argument from pages 1-3>"
Pages 16-25: [see pages 4-5, 6-10, 11-12, only this time the tangent involves the proper role of the first baseman in the right-handed Birkenshire variation of cricket]
Page 26: I come in here, tell everyone how stupid this thread has been since its inception, and lock it.
So let's just pretend it's already page 26 and save ourselves a lot of finger strain. There's probably a good discussion to be had about various forms of violence, but it sure as shit isn't going to happen in here.