Sure, we weren't looking to annex them, but that's a strawman distinction. We (the USA) certainly weren't doing these things for charitable or heroic goals.
I disagree.
US actions were shitty, even monstrous. There's a difference between propping up friendly regimes and wars of territorial expansion
Crimea isn't a win at all, its a money sink that relies on Ukraine's infrastructure to keep functioning (I believe since Russia has had they've had a few brown outs), its only a win in the deluded mind of Putin.
There were widespread brownouts after one of the power lines running through the isthmus was mysteriously damaged. Russia moved in a massive number of diesel and gas generators to bridge the gap. Also, the Crimea is operating on approximately 45% of its normal water supply after Ukraine cut two-thirds of the inflow into the North Crimean Canal.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
- John Stuart Mill
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
RT reports that Putin called Obama today and asked him to use his influence to curb bloodshed in Ukraine.
"Is there anything you can do to help end the bloodshed in Ukraine, President Obama?"
"I'll be happy to help President Putin. Let me make a phone call."
ring ring
"Hello, President Putin? Please stop the bloodshed in Ukraine."
I can only imagine what Obama told Putin, I'm guessing it was laughter and then "Wait are you serious? Get the fuck out of here." and then he hung up.
And oh shit the US sent someone from the cia to the Ukraine, Russia will totally use this to blame us for THEIR INVASION OF THE UKRAINE THAT THEY WERE ALREADY DOING!
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A Russian fighter jet made multiple, close-range passes near an American warship in the Black Sea for more than 90 minutes Saturday amid escalating tensions in the region, U.S. military officials said Monday.
In the first public account of the incident, the officials said the Russian Fencer made 12 passes, and flew within 1,000 yards of the USS Donald Cook, a Navy destroyer, at about 500 feet above sea level.
The U.S. warship issued several radio queries and warnings using international emergency circuits, but the Russian aircraft did not respond.
"This provocative and unprofessional Russian action is inconsistent with international protocols and previous agreements on the professional interaction between our militaries," said Army Col. Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Okay so this is an easy read. Russia is trying to demonstrate weakness of the United States (among trying to do so with NATO and the UN).
The question is, how does the US respond? I don't like that shit.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Eh the Russians used to ram our ships in the med and Black Sea just to fuck with us.
Rus gonna Rus
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
This reminds me of a quote.
Admiral Josh Painter: This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.
Although if the soviets used to ram our ships without us responding I'm probably overreacting.
My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
In terms of rhetoric, given how most of the world outside Russia is reacting, I think the best tack for the US to take is for Biden to break out his "Get a load of this guy" cam.
It is, however, yet another worrying indicator that we're rapidly approaching a state of same old, same old which most people thought, and probably would still rather like to think, that mankind left by the wayside just before the last turn of the millennium.
Alright and in this next scene all the animals have AIDS.
So any bets on how much more of Ukraine Russia wants?
East of the Dniepir river, and the South along the route through Odessa to Moldova. A clear and easily defended boundary, landlocks Ukraine, gives complete access to their gas resources, energy and gas lines to Crimea, and gives a route for invasion/pressure of Tranistria.
There's a big difference between Crimea (heavily Russian-speaking population, historically Russian, politically divided from the rest of Ukraine) and the shores of Ukraine proper (mostly Ukrainian speaking, hasn't been part of Russia for the last century, does not like Russia one bit, zero chance of fabricating a real claim to the region).
So any bets on how much more of Ukraine Russia wants?
East of the Dniepir river, and the South along the route through Odessa to Moldova. A clear and easily defended boundary, landlocks Ukraine, gives complete access to their gas resources, energy and gas lines to Crimea, and gives a route for invasion/pressure of Tranistria.
There's a big difference between Crimea (heavily Russian-speaking population, historically Russian, politically divided from the rest of Ukraine) and the shores of Ukraine proper (mostly Ukrainian speaking, hasn't been part of Russia for the last century, does not like Russia one bit, zero chance of fabricating a real claim to the region).
I don't disagree. Off the top of my head, there's only one region that has a thin majority of Russian speakers in the East and South. And that's beside the fact that being Russian speaking doesn't directly correlate to being pro-Russian annexation or for Ukrainian federalisation.
The question was what Russia (or more realistically, Putin) wants, not what Ukraine wants, nor what Russia will necessary get.
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
My boss told me another story about how, when we did mid air refueling the Russians would try to fly up real close because they couldn't quite figure it out. One time one of his pilots had to maneuver around a Russian plan that was keeping station between the tanker and the plane. When the American plane pulled along side, the Russian pilot flicked him the bird and then zoomed off to Rooskieland.
This reminds me of my childhood in the kindergarten where we used to drive around in so-called Moon-carts (peddle-powered metal cages). The only reason we drove into each other was because we were assholes and wanted to ruin the day for the other guy.
Russian jets harassing US ships.. Isn't that the equivalent of playing with matches standing in a pool of gasoline? I really hope that the EU ramps up the sanctions to stage 3 and leaves Putin trying to defend why his country is falling even more apart.
RT reports that Putin called Obama today and asked him to use his influence to curb bloodshed in Ukraine.
"Is there anything you can do to help end the bloodshed in Ukraine, President Obama?"
"I'll be happy to help President Putin. Let me make a phone call: Ring ring! Hello, President Putin? Please stop the bloodshed in Ukraine."
Fixed for maximum trollage.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
Eh the Russians used to ram our ships in the med and Black Sea just to fuck with us.
Rus gonna Rus
Eh, that stuff went both ways during the Cold War. I recall reading a story in 'Blind Man's Bluff' about one of our subs doing a hit and run in Soviet territorial waters among other rammings. Not to mention things like running aircraft at Soviet air defense zones and turning away at the last minute - standard fucking with each other stuff.
And remember - we actively and regularly invaded Soviet airspace with U2 and SR71 recon aircraft. Unauthorized invasion of another country's airspace is an act of war.
Russian jets harassing US ships.. Isn't that the equivalent of playing with matches standing in a pool of gasoline? I really hope that the EU ramps up the sanctions to stage 3 and leaves Putin trying to defend why his country is falling even more apart.
That's just standard dick-waving. Nobody is going to start a shooting war over that.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
edited April 2014
NPR just reported that the Ukrane started moving troops in to start taking back the gov. buildings from the militias, but they ran into unarmed people in their path outside the cities. Can anyone else confirm? NPR's been reporting from inside the area about how many people are saying this isn't Russia's doing, but reflects their will.. but I get this feeling that they aren't seeing the whole picture with their embedded reporter. I just can't tell, and it was a really quick update before they went to a pledge drive.
Edit: NPR just had a piece on how dependent Russia is on Ukranian military manufacturing, even if they don't admit that the Ukraine contributed a ton to the Soviet military/industrial complex. Similarly, Russia is the largest buyer of Ukraine's military industry. They were talking about things going back to like 1994. It was pretty fascinating, and pretty well highlighted how hard it is going to be to untangle these two countries, if ever.
Eh the Russians used to ram our ships in the med and Black Sea just to fuck with us.
Rus gonna Rus
Eh, that stuff went both ways during the Cold War. I recall reading a story in 'Blind Man's Bluff' about one of our subs doing a hit and run in Soviet territorial waters among other rammings. Not to mention things like running aircraft at Soviet air defense zones and turning away at the last minute - standard fucking with each other stuff.
And remember - we actively and regularly invaded Soviet airspace with U2 and SR71 recon aircraft. Unauthorized invasion of another country's airspace is an act of war.
Russian jets harassing US ships.. Isn't that the equivalent of playing with matches standing in a pool of gasoline? I really hope that the EU ramps up the sanctions to stage 3 and leaves Putin trying to defend why his country is falling even more apart.
That's just standard dick-waving. Nobody is going to start a shooting war over that.
Russia also still semi-regularly sends bombers into the North Sea right up to the UK's airspace. Testing reaction times and dick waving.
Seems Russia is a fan of that thing kids do where they wave a hand right in front of your face while saying 'not touching you, you can't get mad'. Only they do it with weapons.
Eh the Russians used to ram our ships in the med and Black Sea just to fuck with us.
Rus gonna Rus
Eh, that stuff went both ways during the Cold War. I recall reading a story in 'Blind Man's Bluff' about one of our subs doing a hit and run in Soviet territorial waters among other rammings. Not to mention things like running aircraft at Soviet air defense zones and turning away at the last minute - standard fucking with each other stuff.
And remember - we actively and regularly invaded Soviet airspace with U2 and SR71 recon aircraft. Unauthorized invasion of another country's airspace is an act of war.
Russian jets harassing US ships.. Isn't that the equivalent of playing with matches standing in a pool of gasoline? I really hope that the EU ramps up the sanctions to stage 3 and leaves Putin trying to defend why his country is falling even more apart.
That's just standard dick-waving. Nobody is going to start a shooting war over that.
Russia also still semi-regularly sends bombers into the North Sea right up to the UK's airspace. Testing reaction times and dick waving.
Seems Russia is a fan of that thing kids do where they wave a hand right in front of your face while saying 'not touching you, you can't get mad'. Only they do it with weapons.
And we do 'exercises' with bombers and air patrols in the Bering and Baltic Seas, as well as the Sea of Japan.
That's not even counting the regular RC-135 / EP3 flights along the edges of Russian (and Chinese) territory.
Just because the Cold War ended doesn't mean those games stopped.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
NPR just reported that the Ukrane started moving troops in to start taking back the gov. buildings from the militias, but they ran into unarmed people in their path outside the cities. Can anyone else confirm? NPR's been reporting from inside the area about how many people are saying this isn't Russia's doing, but reflects their will.. but I get this feeling that they aren't seeing the whole picture with their embedded reporter. I just can't tell, and it was a really quick update before they went to a pledge drive.
Edit: NPR just had a piece on how dependent Russia is on Ukranian military manufacturing, even if they don't admit that the Ukraine contributed a ton to the Soviet military/industrial complex. Similarly, Russia is the largest buyer of Ukraine's military industry. They were talking about things going back to like 1994. It was pretty fascinating, and pretty well highlighted how hard it is going to be to untangle these two countries, if ever.
I also saw this on RT and the Beeber.
Something tells me that this crackdown can't be too bad if unarmed people can stop a tank, eh?
Sometimes Russian propaganda works against itself.
"Although there were some attacks against the ethnic Russian community, these were neither systematic nor widespread," said the report, which follows two visits to the country last month by Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ivan Simonovic.
"Photographs of the Maidan protests, greatly exaggerated stories of harassment of ethnic Russians by Ukrainian nationalist extremists, and misinformed reports of them coming armed to persecute ethnic Russians in Crimea, were systematically used to create a climate of fear and insecurity that reflected on support to integration of Crimea into the Russian Federation."
...
Thanks Russia for the totally independent Russian media whipping them into a state of fear and anger.
Russian jets harassing US ships.. Isn't that the equivalent of playing with matches standing in a pool of gasoline?
Not really, there's a reason countries operate with strict rules of engagement even in war time, and most of the time it's pretty clear what rules another unit is operating under and what you can safely do to fuck with them. And Russia historically just loves to fuck with people.
For example, in Vietnam, certain air missions would only be allowed to attack if fired on first. So smartass enemy pilots who recognized such a mission would fly in close and flick them off, or people on the ground would moon them, and all the pilot could do was zip around and try to act threatening and hope somebody would get twitchy and shoot first (which they wouldn't do as long as the US plane outmatched them), which is just about the closest you can get to mooning them back without causing the most embarrassing military plane crash ever.
Putin is demanding international condemnation of the Ukrainian government's actions in eastern Ukraine. I am pretty sure that sending police to stop an armed rebellion isn't something most countries want to condemn.
Yeah I'm really confused as to what the international community would respond.
"How dare you put down an insurrection sparked by your neighbor to take over more of your own country, that the citizens of your country are protesting you for not doing."
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Putin seems to be equating what the current government is doing to what the previous government did.
Ergo, Putin doesn't think anyone in the world will note the difference between an unarmed protest of government corruption that turned into a revolution and an armed insurrection financed by a foreign power.
But Putin had no problem with the previous government escalating the violence after the amnesty bill failed. It isn't even consistent assuming both actions are the same.
The Kramatorsk airport has been recaptured and the "anti-terror operation" in Donetsk under way.
Well past a certain point if major players like the US and Russia stop giving the UN any kind of authority it is completely ineffective. We weakened the body with our dumb fuck Iraq adventure, Russia will do the same thing if they continue on their path with Ukraine and nothing happens.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Did said actions against Russia cause them to back down (this looks like a no)
and
Can further action be taken if Russia moves into East Ukraine (so far this looks like a no as well)
Yes we hurt Russia, but not to the extent that we were able to stop their actions in Ukraine nor prevent further escalation (imo)
Did said actions against Russia cause them to back down (this looks like a no)
and
Can further action be taken if Russia moves into East Ukraine (so far this looks like a no as well)
Yes we hurt Russia, but not to the extent that we were able to stop their actions in Ukraine nor prevent further escalation (imo)
If Russia can convince its population that they are on a war footing, shared deprivation can actually strengthen the government in the short term.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Eh the Russians used to ram our ships in the med and Black Sea just to fuck with us.
Rus gonna Rus
Eh, that stuff went both ways during the Cold War. I recall reading a story in 'Blind Man's Bluff' about one of our subs doing a hit and run in Soviet territorial waters among other rammings. Not to mention things like running aircraft at Soviet air defense zones and turning away at the last minute - standard fucking with each other stuff.
And remember - we actively and regularly invaded Soviet airspace with U2 and SR71 recon aircraft. Unauthorized invasion of another country's airspace is an act of war.
Russian jets harassing US ships.. Isn't that the equivalent of playing with matches standing in a pool of gasoline? I really hope that the EU ramps up the sanctions to stage 3 and leaves Putin trying to defend why his country is falling even more apart.
That's just standard dick-waving. Nobody is going to start a shooting war over that.
The ramming of NATO ships by Warsaw Pact ships tended to be limited to interference with freedom of navigation missions. The Soviets and by extension the Warsaw Pact members claimed they controlled navigation within the 12 mile limit. The US rejected this and sent ships in to make their point. The above video is actually from the same mission where the Yorktown and Caron were just off the Crimean Peninsula.
Posts
I disagree.
US actions were shitty, even monstrous. There's a difference between propping up friendly regimes and wars of territorial expansion
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
There were widespread brownouts after one of the power lines running through the isthmus was mysteriously damaged. Russia moved in a massive number of diesel and gas generators to bridge the gap. Also, the Crimea is operating on approximately 45% of its normal water supply after Ukraine cut two-thirds of the inflow into the North Crimean Canal.
- John Stuart Mill
"Is there anything you can do to help end the bloodshed in Ukraine, President Obama?"
"I'll be happy to help President Putin. Let me make a phone call."
ring ring
"Hello, President Putin? Please stop the bloodshed in Ukraine."
And oh shit the US sent someone from the cia to the Ukraine, Russia will totally use this to blame us for THEIR INVASION OF THE UKRAINE THAT THEY WERE ALREADY DOING!
pleasepaypreacher.net
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
The question is, how does the US respond? I don't like that shit.
Rus gonna Rus
Although if the soviets used to ram our ships without us responding I'm probably overreacting.
I got a little excited when I saw your ship.
There's a big difference between Crimea (heavily Russian-speaking population, historically Russian, politically divided from the rest of Ukraine) and the shores of Ukraine proper (mostly Ukrainian speaking, hasn't been part of Russia for the last century, does not like Russia one bit, zero chance of fabricating a real claim to the region).
I don't disagree. Off the top of my head, there's only one region that has a thin majority of Russian speakers in the East and South. And that's beside the fact that being Russian speaking doesn't directly correlate to being pro-Russian annexation or for Ukrainian federalisation.
The question was what Russia (or more realistically, Putin) wants, not what Ukraine wants, nor what Russia will necessary get.
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
Russia gonna Russia.
This reminds me of my childhood in the kindergarten where we used to drive around in so-called Moon-carts (peddle-powered metal cages). The only reason we drove into each other was because we were assholes and wanted to ruin the day for the other guy.
Shoulda turned our ship into them, capsized them. Then I'd LOL.
Fixed for maximum trollage.
Eh, that stuff went both ways during the Cold War. I recall reading a story in 'Blind Man's Bluff' about one of our subs doing a hit and run in Soviet territorial waters among other rammings. Not to mention things like running aircraft at Soviet air defense zones and turning away at the last minute - standard fucking with each other stuff.
And remember - we actively and regularly invaded Soviet airspace with U2 and SR71 recon aircraft. Unauthorized invasion of another country's airspace is an act of war.
That's just standard dick-waving. Nobody is going to start a shooting war over that.
Edit: NPR just had a piece on how dependent Russia is on Ukranian military manufacturing, even if they don't admit that the Ukraine contributed a ton to the Soviet military/industrial complex. Similarly, Russia is the largest buyer of Ukraine's military industry. They were talking about things going back to like 1994. It was pretty fascinating, and pretty well highlighted how hard it is going to be to untangle these two countries, if ever.
Russia also still semi-regularly sends bombers into the North Sea right up to the UK's airspace. Testing reaction times and dick waving.
Seems Russia is a fan of that thing kids do where they wave a hand right in front of your face while saying 'not touching you, you can't get mad'. Only they do it with weapons.
And we do 'exercises' with bombers and air patrols in the Bering and Baltic Seas, as well as the Sea of Japan.
That's not even counting the regular RC-135 / EP3 flights along the edges of Russian (and Chinese) territory.
Just because the Cold War ended doesn't mean those games stopped.
I also saw this on RT and the Beeber.
Something tells me that this crackdown can't be too bad if unarmed people can stop a tank, eh?
Sometimes Russian propaganda works against itself.
Oh god, I accidentally read some of the comments.
The UN finds claims of persecution of ethnic Russians to basically be bullshit.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/15/us-ukraine-crisis-un-idUSBREA3E0EQ20140415 Thanks Russia for the totally independent Russian media whipping them into a state of fear and anger.
Not really, there's a reason countries operate with strict rules of engagement even in war time, and most of the time it's pretty clear what rules another unit is operating under and what you can safely do to fuck with them. And Russia historically just loves to fuck with people.
For example, in Vietnam, certain air missions would only be allowed to attack if fired on first. So smartass enemy pilots who recognized such a mission would fly in close and flick them off, or people on the ground would moon them, and all the pilot could do was zip around and try to act threatening and hope somebody would get twitchy and shoot first (which they wouldn't do as long as the US plane outmatched them), which is just about the closest you can get to mooning them back without causing the most embarrassing military plane crash ever.
"How dare you put down an insurrection sparked by your neighbor to take over more of your own country, that the citizens of your country are protesting you for not doing."
pleasepaypreacher.net
Ergo, Putin doesn't think anyone in the world will note the difference between an unarmed protest of government corruption that turned into a revolution and an armed insurrection financed by a foreign power.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
pleasepaypreacher.net
The Kramatorsk airport has been recaptured and the "anti-terror operation" in Donetsk under way.
Maybe something like the shenanigans that were pulled to take away the Republic of China's seat and give it to the People's Republic?
Sorry Russia, the USSR was a permanent member so there are only four of us in the club now. Piss off.
Two methods:
1) Make all of Russia's nuclear weapons turn into faerie dust.
or
2) Decide that the UN isn't even going to pretend to be effective.
pleasepaypreacher.net
No because obama didn't take his shirt off and hump a cat.
pleasepaypreacher.net
IMO, the question should be:
Did said actions against Russia cause them to back down (this looks like a no)
and
Can further action be taken if Russia moves into East Ukraine (so far this looks like a no as well)
Yes we hurt Russia, but not to the extent that we were able to stop their actions in Ukraine nor prevent further escalation (imo)
If Russia can convince its population that they are on a war footing, shared deprivation can actually strengthen the government in the short term.
The ramming of NATO ships by Warsaw Pact ships tended to be limited to interference with freedom of navigation missions. The Soviets and by extension the Warsaw Pact members claimed they controlled navigation within the 12 mile limit. The US rejected this and sent ships in to make their point. The above video is actually from the same mission where the Yorktown and Caron were just off the Crimean Peninsula.