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[EUIV] Reducing the Reduced reduction in cost of reducing war exhaustion for some NI's

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  • KadokenKadoken Giving Ends to my Friends and it Feels Stupendous Registered User regular
    edited October 2016
    O_o

    Ideas are MORE important than teching up. ESPECIALLY as a perifery nation since ideas are not penalized by Institutions.
    The combination of Offensive and Quality idea groups can be devestating. Offensive give you a healthy boost to maximum number of regiments and your generals abilities. Quality really boosts the combat ability of each individual unit, allowing you to take on numericly superior opponents.
    Then you engage them in a battle where you have defensive multipliers and limited combat width (on a mountain where they have to cross a river is ideal).

    It's better to lag behind in tech than to skimp on development and Idea groups.

    " O_o "

    Why are you giving me this? Do you think I'm stupid?

    How do I develop efficiently?

    How can ideas be more important when you need admin techs to actually get them?

    Edit: Thanks for the advice though. That will probably help a ton either a little later on or in another campaign.

    I really do not like that smiley business because it makes me feel like I'm being condescended to.

    Kadoken on
  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited October 2016
    Counterpoint: tech is more important than ideas

    You can conquer the entire world with just Admin 2, Influence 3, but you need to take admin tech levels 17, 23 and 27 on time, being ahead in military tech will also net you more than pumping your points into military ideas

    Here's the strategy I would personally use for Japan:

    - Renaissance: develop your capital in all three categories until Renaissance is embraced in the province - you can move your capital to a province you like, good provinces to develop are either farmland or gold provinces, stack modifiers like loyal burghers (if you have the Cossacks DLC)
    - Colonialism: if you can establish a colonial nation, this is taken care of, if you have knowledge of a part of the American continent before 1500, there is a chance your country will spawn the institution and the "major colonial port", I got it in Africa
    - Printing Press: this is the second one you'll have to develop for - you can consider taking Economic Ideas to reduce the necessary monarch point investment (ideally before developing for Renaissance) - I would suggest moving your capital one more time to make full use of the development cost reduction
    - Global Trade: this will grow on its own in Centers of Trade and the speed is dependent on the CoT's development - you can do something like develop a CoT for either Renaissance and Printing Press and then you'll have no problem embracing Global Trade in time
    - Manufactories: have manufactories in your capital area, this also grows very quickly like Global Trade
    - Enlightenment: build universities

    So basically you only need to develop two times if you're colonizing and you'll have no noticable tech penalty for the entire game - I think if you stack all development modifiers, the cost is somewhat comparable to the old Westernization, except you'll not have to deal with the added unrest and you get rich provinces out of it

    Platy on
  • Anarchy Rules!Anarchy Rules! Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    Ok, how do I develop them though? I remember reading that you could somewhere but the game does NOT explain that.

    Edit: not "how" as in pressing the buttons, but what to focus on?

    I started picking on some tinys in the mean time. Molluccas started getting me a good amount of moneys once I conquered most the lamd controlling it. Thinking of putting Scotland in their place for trying to take Alaska when I already have some spots. Also, I didn't know until Portugal took it (who I could fight) but Southern Alaska/British Columbia has like 2 or three gold provinces I missed on my way to San Fran. Same for eastern Siberian provinces (but not Kamchatka)

    I really just want to sit back for a bit, maybe pick on Portugal and Scotland, because France is a beast, and try to break top 10. Ming had some provinces rebel and were liking me for a bit, not a full implosion but it's something. Taking Chinese land would probably propel me up by a lot, and I think their force limit was weakened from 170 to 137 while mine is hanging out at 119.

    How do I build up military stuff? I know usually more numbers=victory, but nothing else. I don't really have time for ideas either because when you don't have enough MP for teching up you don't get enough for ideas. I really wish they weren't bought by MP.

    Institutions will only spawn in provinces of development 20, and will spread faster in higher development provinces. Further, if you develop a province with a non-embraced institution the presence of the institution will increase with each development. Can be a way of kick starting the institution spread in your country.

    In terms of actual development strategy.... I'm not 100%. I haven't really played all that much with the new institutions. Before, I would just use the feature as a sink for when I was ahead in tech and didn't have an appropriate idea. I generally chucked the diplomatic power into my (low autonomy) provinces with high value trade goods preferentially. I would usually pick a farmland/grassland province and chuck my military power and combine with a barracks to get a decent manpower return. Just used admin power for wherever needed balancing to be honest.

  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited October 2016
    The 10, 20-development breakpoints seem to only apply to Renaissance spread inside Europe, but all institutions will indeed spread faster into high-development provinces

    If you lack Common Sense, you'll have to apply old Westernization strategies like the Tentacle of Knowledge, basically reach Genoa

    [edit]
    Military tips: early game most of your damage will come from cavalry, make sure your armies have four units of them

    Don't build your armies too cannon-heavy if you've only unlocked the first tier of cannons, those are mainly there for helping speed up sieges, building too many cannons early-game is a good way to waste manpower and more importantly money

    Platy on
  • Anarchy Rules!Anarchy Rules! Registered User regular
    In basically my only game with the new system either global trade or manufactories or spawned in Beijing? Not sure if development related or just lucky?

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  • Anarchy Rules!Anarchy Rules! Registered User regular
    I think it's balanced? The development is a nice feature, but the AI can still use it to develop their provinces to give them an advantage. I think that's more of a feature than a bug/problem?

    Additional paid features are mostly nice to have if you're planning on playing as England, a protestant nation or within the HRE.

  • chrisnlchrisnl Registered User regular
    I think they patched the AI to not develop higher than like 1.5x the base development of the province? Something like that. I really like Common Sense and think it would be a giant hassle to play without it, especially with the way technology spreads now.

    steam_sig.png
  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited October 2016
    In basically my only game with the new system either global trade or manufactories or spawned in Beijing? Not sure if development related or just lucky?

    The Manufactories institution will originate in a province which has a manufactory and is in a capital area, I just looked it up in the game files and there is also a 20-development requirement

    Global Trade will originate in a CoT or capital which is in the highest-valued trade node

    Zavian wrote: »
    So, I was reading some old reddit and Paradox forum posts and some people were saying that Common Sense can bork the game with the AI over using development in provinces making mid to late game harder. There have been a bunch of patches since then, and with the current -66% sale going on for DLC was considering picking up Common Sense and maybe one other DLC (Currently only have Art of War and Res Publica, mostly just interested in playing Portugal, Genoa and Ireland over the next few months). Is Common Sense still worth getting and balanced?

    No, it's not unbalanced, there is going to be more development in the world but I would be surprised if you couldn't still one-tag it with good monarch power management

    Don't forget the player also benefits from development under the new system by being able to manage institutional spread

    Really only difference AI-wise is that RotW AI will now have the points to develop their provinces which they didn't before and that is a good change

    Platy on
  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    O_o

    Ideas are MORE important than teching up. ESPECIALLY as a perifery nation since ideas are not penalized by Institutions.
    The combination of Offensive and Quality idea groups can be devestating. Offensive give you a healthy boost to maximum number of regiments and your generals abilities. Quality really boosts the combat ability of each individual unit, allowing you to take on numericly superior opponents.
    Then you engage them in a battle where you have defensive multipliers and limited combat width (on a mountain where they have to cross a river is ideal).

    It's better to lag behind in tech than to skimp on development and Idea groups.

    " O_o "

    Why are you giving me this? Do you think I'm stupid?

    How do I develop efficiently?

    How can ideas be more important when you need admin techs to actually get them?

    Edit: Thanks for the advice though. That will probably help a ton either a little later on or in another campaign.

    I really do not like that smiley business because it makes me feel like I'm being condescended to.

    What I'm saying is that try to time tech development to where its most efficient. You can hit your first idea group before renaissance modifiers kicks in too hard. Then ride that wave and don't be afraid to lag behind in technology at the points in development during the periods where it's extra expensive to keep up. Hit Military or Diplomatic idea groups first (so that they don't penalize your administrative research).

    Exploration could be a really good idea for two reasons.
    1. If you've reached the new world you could become the new center for the colonial institution.
    2. Establishing a "Fort Japan" in north africa or western Asia with 10% (or more) of your total development could jumpstart your Institutions by decades, allowing you to bypass India and China.

    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited October 2016
    90% of the time I take an administrative idea group first (either one of the two "don't explode" idea groups or Administrative)

    Moving towards Europe is a good idea for most RotW nations but if you take Exploration, you might as well just develop for Renaissance and Printing Press (since Colonialism will spread into your provinces on its own)

    If you don't mind going above 20% tech penalty, you also unlock Printing Press by teching up to dip tech 15 (which you can take on time in 1596)

    Reaching around Africa would probably sap ressources which are much better spent elsewhere and it can also take 30+ years for Printing Press to just spread into Iberia

    Platy on
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    This was a cool event:
    D1ED204B732CD07B8F2EB933BE20DB88DCD8F033
    Now I just need a way to take Scotland while they're allied to France. (Who I'm also allied to.)

  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    I find it interesting that there are no options to refuse to release her sons and halfbrother :P

    That's how badass Grainne ni Mhaille is...

    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
  • KadokenKadoken Giving Ends to my Friends and it Feels Stupendous Registered User regular
    I think I might try an Ireland campaign after I'm done with Japan. Being a wide spread empire sure is annoying when the enemy will just circumvent current fronts and fuck about in Japan or the Phillipines or whatever. Scotland's land in western Mexico got taken, but then I realized I had to explore south america's coast to be able to put my troops in their mainland since France is being a jerk and not letting me use their colonies to just cross over by land. So my ships got stuck exploring, which you CANNOT choose to stop, and Scotland landed a measly 22 regiment force on Japan which I tried to stop with mercs (since I had 1700 saved up because I was trying to embrace insitutions) but their morale was crap and they got beaten easily. I also have a new rebellion in Majapahit to deal with even though this is like the fifth one and I've stomped them out every time so why the crushed rebellion modifier hasn't kicked in with the end of sepratism is annoying. I can't get my ships to stop exploring, so I can't get the troops I had stationed on the eastern Mollucas to stomp these scots out, and I can't deal with the rebels who number 44k in regiments, and half of my army is stuck in mexico doing nothing. Agh.

    I can probably still win and keep my Indonesian possessions, it's just frustrating.

    Though luckily, having a good navy has eased frustrations with island hopping warfare, and no one has been able to beat it except that one time I was getting close to having to take a loan so I turned off their maintenance and Majapahit was able to take out like 20 ships before I retreated them.

  • Anarchy Rules!Anarchy Rules! Registered User regular
    Ireland is a fun game, but be prepared for a few restarts. There's a fair bit of luck involved in the early game - sometimes England will want to conquer Ireland early on, and it's pretty difficult to get alliances with the European majors that will stop English aggression. A Scottish alliance is trash in that regards, especially as it stops opportunistic strikes if/when they're beaten by the English.

  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited October 2016
    What was the wargoal - there is generally no need to ship troops over to Europe if you are at war with an European nation

    If you control the wargoal, your warscore will tick up to 25% and after a while they will start to lose enthusiasm - if they attacked you with the Overseas Expansion CB, just kill any army which lands

    I think what happened in Indonesia is that your war exhaustion got too high, that's another reason why it is best to stick to a single theater in a situation like this

    Platy on
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    So I'm starting to see a trend with Irish women where apparently all they did was subvert the patriarchy and chew bubblegum, except bubblegum hadn't been invented yet:
    288A7FA267C17C62076532C63D3AA86939804A6B
    I was highly tempted to make her my ruler but the other alternative gave me a ton of monarch points and I didn't know what her stats would be.

    It other news, all I need now is Orkney. I've got a strong control over the Caribbean and am expanding quickly in North America, while also getting little toeholds into a potential asian empire. I'm basically in Great Britain's situation except I'm BFFs with France so... ahahahahahahaha? Also allied with Russia for really no reason... but they're also allied to the Ottomans so I'm not really worried about that alliance causing too much trouble.

    Gundi on
  • KadokenKadoken Giving Ends to my Friends and it Feels Stupendous Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    What was the wargoal - there is generally no need to ship troops over to Europe if you are at war with an European nation

    If you control the wargoal, your warscore will tick up to 25% and after a while they will start to lose enthusiasm - if they attacked you with the Overseas Expansion CB, just kill any army which lands

    I think what happened in Indonesia is that your war exhaustion got too high, that's another reason why it is best to stick to a single theater in a situation like this

    Oh no, Scotland was forced to partake in an exodus to South America. I declared war on them for my colony to gain more land. To be fair, they're in Colombia and decided to encroach on adjacent California/west Mexican territory. I've also started earning good money in the Mollucas/Phillipines while getting those silver shipments so I think going both ways was a good idea.

    I took over the CB land

    The problem isn't shipping units to Europe, it's shipping my units back to Japan and then Indonesia.

    Edit:
    Ireland is a fun game, but be prepared for a few restarts. There's a fair bit of luck involved in the early game - sometimes England will want to conquer Ireland early on, and it's pretty difficult to get alliances with the European majors that will stop English aggression. A Scottish alliance is trash in that regards, especially as it stops opportunistic strikes if/when they're beaten by the English.

    Doesn't sound too different from being a Daimyo

    Edit 2: I think the biggest thing that saved me from a Chinese invasion is I built a wall of four citadels around where our land met and so that deterred them enough even when their land forces were almost double mine and recently they gained the last Asian troops with the nifty hats.

    Kadoken on
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Yesssss:
    06F1817F1433B342E23182AD9F55701F37DE7670

  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    ottoblob.jpg~original

    That is scary, especially since the AI is more than happy to intervene in wars

    [edit]
    The Ottomans intervened on the side of France but they were no match for my Swiss Marines

    [edit 2]
    By the way, Animal Kingdom achievement by 1620, this is together with Mzab one of the worst starting positions in the game

    I debased up to 32% Corruption just to survive and not go bankrupt

    manipur.jpg~original

    Platy on
  • AssuranAssuran Is swinging on the Spiral Registered User regular
    DDRJake is doing Manipur right now on hard mode.

    He's restarted several times. This one is my favorite:

    https://www.twitch.tv/ddrjake/v/97970059

  • Anarchy Rules!Anarchy Rules! Registered User regular
    As a Jurchen tribe is it better to gobble up Mongolia/Oirat after uniting or maintain an alliance with them to ward off China?

  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    It depends, chances are that you will get sucked into pointless wars if you ally Oirat and that Ming is going to attack you as soon as Oirat is going to dishonor the call - that region is overall not very stable, AI hordes also suffer from frequent tribal uprisings

    If I had to deal with a stable Ming in this version I would probably go Quantity, the finisher is +50% force limit which should allow you to go toe to toe with Ming

  • Fleur de AlysFleur de Alys Biohacker Registered User regular
    Mongolia isn't generally wealthy enough to let you turn the tide against Ming, so I usually find an Oirat alliance more useful right up until the point where they start losing. Especially if they're maintaining the bigger border with Ming; what you want is for Ming to attack them instead of you so you can either dishonor or try to weasel your way out of it with no to minimal losses (hopefully while still enjoying a nice treaty period).

    If you're looking to expand while up against a Chinese great wall, your best bet is through Ainu and into Japan (assuming Korea is enjoying Ming protection). That's valuable territory with lots of strait crossings to exploit the AI with, and it's doubly useful if you colonize California (and you absolutely should -- bonus points for founding the Colonization institution). Manchu with Japan and Californian colonies can probably hold its own against Ming.

    Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
  • Anarchy Rules!Anarchy Rules! Registered User regular
    Playing as a horde is both fun and really quite frustrating. The horde unity seems really difficult to maintain - the amount you gain from razing and looting doesn't really make up for how much you lose each year?

  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    It depends on how aggressively you expand - in the west your more pressing problem will be money and income

    Remember that Horde Unity decay is partly based on development, so after a while you either have to reform or really accelerate your conquests

    [edit]
    Jianzhou starts with a loss of 2.4 Horde Unity per year, if they grow to 500 development they would begin losing 4.5 yearly if I'm not entirely mistaken

    Platy on
  • KadokenKadoken Giving Ends to my Friends and it Feels Stupendous Registered User regular
    How much of trade power do vassals have to give you? Because I'm thinking releasing Majapahit and whoever's on the Mollucas would have solved my annoying across the world rebellion problem

  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    none? unless they're colonial nations

  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    You can't make a vassal transfer trade power to you, they instead pay a vassal tax but most of the time it is negligible

    Nations are most effective at controlling trade in the node which has their trade capital, so releasing Majapahit would probably retain a lot of ducats in the Moluccas - they also have trade bonuses in their ideas, in my game as Manipur they were the number 1 power in Chengdu of all nodes and were steering money in a direction I didn't want

    Platy on
  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    My Switzerlake - I'm also Protestant Emperor with four reforms passed

    switzerlake.jpg~original

    I'm now playing as Najd but I think I have to restart - France died early, Muscovy and Poland never got anywhere so it's difficult finding help against my former ally the Ottomans

    If I try again, I will probably make a rush for Egypt, I found that it took around 50 years for an institution to spread into Mesopotamia on its own which isn't ideal

    [edit]
    I think I'm just going to develop for Renaissance and against the Mamluks, I'm going to eternally call in the Ottomans and repeatedly feed them exactly one province

    Platy on
  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    500 Sunni provinces - I would probably do quite a few things differently if I had to play this campaign again, in this version you really need a rock-solid plan how you're going to pay for corruption and institutions

    najd.jpg~original

    I think I'm slooowly approaching the point where I would like to attempt a One Faith or maybe even try to climb The Three Mountains again

    Thinking about how it would be possible to do One Faith in style

    Platy on
  • Anarchy Rules!Anarchy Rules! Registered User regular
    I'm always impressed by your games, I play a fair amount but are nowhere near as good!

    I've finally got around to playing a Venice game. I'm doing pretty well, dominating the Venice, Constantinople, Alexandria, Crimea and Aleppo nodes. I'm funnelling a lot of ducats my way, but I just can't seem to get a dominant hold of ragusa. I control Dubrovnik and I have a Serbian vassal who controls much of the region, but so much of the trade share is going up to Vienna and the Germans. Most of my trade fleet is there just to maintain a 30% share!

  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    You probably have half the HRE applying power in that direction

    One thing which is maybe interesting is that any trade flowing from or into an inland node is affected by Caravan Power - this is listed in the Trade screen as "Inland Bonus"

    Which means it's easy to suck out trade from a node like Ragusa but you can also apply your own Caravan Power bonus when steering trade out of Vienna

    [edit]

    This is the perfect Ryukyu opening - I almost don't wanna continue because it can only go downhill from here

    ryukyu.jpg~original

    Platy on
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    Anyone got any tips for Inca? Already got all my neighbors and I figure I'll go for Muisica next. Want to try and get the Sun God achievement.

    Gundi on
  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    Make sure your Western neighbor has Colonialism when you reform off them - waiting for Printing Press doesn't seem worth it, Catholic Colonial Nations usually get that around 1600 or later

    Your Monarch Points will decay to their maximum stored value after reforming, as soon as you spend any amount of points (so if you have 2000 diplo points in storage and you spend 600 for teching up, the rest will for example decay to 999 if you have all institutions embraced)

    You might want to develop all your gold provinces while you're still a Primitive, after reforming you'll probably have one of the highest incomes in the world

    Go for Mesoamerica as soon as you can, it's worth having (and it prevents any Mexican Colonial Nation from forming)

    [edit]

    I think you should be able to make a decent trade income if you lock down the Panama node, otherwise you can always privateer in the Caribbean node

    Platy on
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Portugal and Castille are right on time in the 1480s. Portugal should have probably embraced colonialism by the time my chain of colonies through the Brazilian interior reaches them.

  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    I would love a DLC that focuses specifically on dynamic names for at least the provinces. For like everyone. Seriously I'd pay like 20$ for a DLC that specifically and only dealt with dynamic names for every country for the majority of the provinces. Even if they have to make the dynamic names actually dynamic and use ruler names and specific geography of the area and modern naming to do it.

  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Oh also apropos of not much but I'm of the opinion that between the three central and south american religions they stack up as follows. (Assuming you get all the reforms.)

    1. Maya
    2. Inti
    3. Nahautl

    And that's mostly just because I think, particularly for nations in the Americas, land military bonuses aren't as important as things like core creation cost reduction or negative revolt risk reduction. Nahautl definitely does give the best military bonuses, though.

  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    Space Marines though

    [edit] Wait a moment, is there any way to switch to Mayan as Tarascan without having the AI Force Religion upon you?

    Tarascan gets -15% Core Creation cost from their NIs and with Mayan religion you would get another -20%

    Platy on
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    I think... isn't it possible for any pagan to change to any of the Mesoamerican/South American religion if they own the relevant religiously important province?

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