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[PA Comic] Friday, April 18, 2014 - The Dungeon Mistress, Part Five

DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
edited April 2014 in The Penny Arcade Hub

image[PA Comic] Friday, April 18, 2014 - The Dungeon Mistress, Part Five

The Dungeon Mistress, Part Five

The Dungeon Mistress, Part Five

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2014/04/18

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  • ChristopherDChristopherD Registered User new member
    A: There's no fire station but there's . . . wis check Galahad
    G: 3
    A: There actually doesn't seem to be much of anything around.
    Fin

  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    I've had situations like this happen in my Call of Cthulhu games, where I needed a player with a skill in Latin to read something to get an important clue - only for them to stuff it up. Turns out you can't read these important passages in the Necronomicon after all! Then I need to spend the rest of the session figuring out some roundabout way of telling them exactly the same information.

    Once I got so aggravated by a bad roll derailing the plot that I just put the hint on a wall in a public bathroom the character visited.

    It was an evil bathroom.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Much of the time we just assumed that the player who "wasted" points (usually me) in knowledge skills or what have you automatically passed these checks. For that very reason.

    Or we'd roll and get the base info no matter what, but the roll determined whether you knew something specific, like location, or that there was a dragon in it.

    What is this I don't even.
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    What they didn't know is that Father Gordon is the leader of a baby-eating cult.

    YL9WnCY.png
  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    What they didn't know is that Father Gordon is the leader of a baby-eating cult.

    No spoilers!
    This is my interpretation of the newspost anyway :p

    Also for a situation like this I always preferred to just ask "What is your wisdom modifier?" and always deliberately to the player I knew had a +1 or whatever bonus. Then I would be like "Oh, well you happen to remember..."

    Spread it around enough and not only do you make everyone feel clever or insightful, but it keeps the plot moving along because nothing is worse than figuring out what to do with a baby in the woods. With no food.

    And we're so very hungry after all that running....

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • SorceSorce Not ThereRegistered User regular
    Father Gordon is telling the kid his/her origin story.

    Clearly, it's because we too must learn the origins of The Bat.

    sig.gif
  • RottonappleRottonapple Registered User regular
    Well as far as panel 2 is concerned, I think a firestation is a much better choice than a Burger King. No really, google Burger King Baby.

  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Much of the time we just assumed that the player who "wasted" points (usually me) in knowledge skills or what have you automatically passed these checks. For that very reason.

    It looks to me like that's what Ann did. I don't think Galahad actually rolled, she just asked Galahad knowing he had a high WIS and he had to look down at his character sheet to remember what it was.

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Much of the time we just assumed that the player who "wasted" points (usually me) in knowledge skills or what have you automatically passed these checks. For that very reason.

    It looks to me like that's what Ann did. I don't think Galahad actually rolled, she just asked Galahad knowing he had a high WIS and he had to look down at his character sheet to remember what it was.
    It seems like she asked him for a Wisdom check, not just what his Wisdom is.

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    She may just have let him take 10

    dN0T6ur.png
  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Much of the time we just assumed that the player who "wasted" points (usually me) in knowledge skills or what have you automatically passed these checks. For that very reason.

    It looks to me like that's what Ann did. I don't think Galahad actually rolled, she just asked Galahad knowing he had a high WIS and he had to look down at his character sheet to remember what it was.
    It seems like she asked him for a Wisdom check, not just what his Wisdom is.

    She did say WIS check, but I think in this case it's just a hand-wave because she knows his WIS is high. There's no indication he rolled and he answers basically immediately. Of course, it could just be compressing things to fit into one panel.

  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    My sneaky trick is just to say, "Roll a Wisdom (/lore, /whatever) check, it'll be modified." They roll too high (in our particular game, a fail) and I say, "Yup, with the modifier for difficulty that makes it. You remember..."

  • roflstomproflstomp Registered User regular
    They roll too high (in our particular game, a fail)

    ...roll too high = fail? o_O

  • RunningmanRunningman Registered User regular
    It's just like when your cat has kittens, right? You put all the babies out in a cardboard box with "Free babies" written on it and give them away to neighbors.

  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Much of the time we just assumed that the player who "wasted" points (usually me) in knowledge skills or what have you automatically passed these checks. For that very reason.

    Or we'd roll and get the base info no matter what, but the roll determined whether you knew something specific, like location, or that there was a dragon in it.

    I think that's pretty much the best way to handle stuff that's required to be known. Give the player whose invested into that tree the information to interpret just by virtue of owning the skill. Just do a hand wave roll so people still think they're being tested.

    You can do genuine rolls for things that aren't plot central.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    I've had situations like this happen in my Call of Cthulhu games, where I needed a player with a skill in Latin to read something to get an important clue - only for them to stuff it up. Turns out you can't read these important passages in the Necronomicon after all! Then I need to spend the rest of the session figuring out some roundabout way of telling them exactly the same information.

    Once I got so aggravated by a bad roll derailing the plot that I just put the hint on a wall in a public bathroom the character visited.

    It was an evil bathroom.

    This is exactly why some GMs choose to roll the dice for players behind a screen (although this takes a trusting group)!

    I actually prefer that someone else roll for me anyway, I am the worst at rolling dice. And not in a "if you need a low roll, just ask Josh to do it" kind of way. If you want me to roll low, I will roll high. Besides, letting someone else handle all the meta stuff like dice rolling and rules lets me just focus on making the decisions I want my character to make.

  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    See, I always let the dice rolls appear publicly, with no hidden rolls. If the rolls are failures, that doesn't mean that the scene is a failure. In fact, many scenes are actually enhanced by a player failing to hit a target (in movies/TV shows as well as RPGs). Indiana Jones isn't awesome because Indy does everything perfectly... he fails many times (fails to con someone as a Scottish nobleman, fails to remember that he doesn't actually have a revolver, etc.), but the scene always moves forward and he triumphs at the end in spite of the "bad roll". "Fail forward" is the jargon for it, but essentially, you "just go with it", figuring out a creative way to move the scene along in spite of the failure.

    When a PC critically fails a roll, I try to play it up in the most humorous way possible. That way, all of the PCs (including the person who flubbed the roll) can laugh about it.

    I also tend to reward critical failures with extra XP or some other bonus so the PC doesn't feel so bad at having their character make such a huge mistake. "Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes" and all that. A lot of RPG systems have this reward for mistakes baked into the system itself. For example, Shadowrun 5th gives you an extra point of Edge when you critically glitch, Castle Falkenstein allows the spell to go off immediately when you draw a Joker and invoke Wild Magic (and all of the harmonics associated with Wild Magic), etc.

    8i1dt37buh2m.png
  • metroidkillahmetroidkillah Local Bunman Free Country, USARegistered User regular
    @Hearthstone Update: The way Gabe describes the game makes it INCREDIBLY unappealing to me (irony?) for one of two reasons:
    1. Gabe simply isn't learning the game well (and I refuse to believe he is unable to learn some of the more subtle points of a CCG after over 100 matches), which means the game is way too complicated.

    2. The Matchmaking is utter shit.

    I suppose it could be a combination of the two, but either way, Hearthstone is clearly not for me.

    On a related note, I really don't understand anyone's compulsion to play a game that is so clearly frustrating with so little payoff. That also goes for things like Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy- though those run more along the lines of overcoming arbitrary challenges while being limited by a set of arbitrary rules, instead of mastering and manipulating a set of arbitrary rules better than someone else. I understand wanting to challenge yourself and "see if you can do it", but there's a line, man.

    At least now I know I'd hate it without having to waste time finding out for myself.

    I'm not a nice guy, I just play one in real life.
  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    roflstomp wrote: »
    They roll too high (in our particular game, a fail)

    ...roll too high = fail? o_O

    Stats in our game are numbers from 5 to 20 (or higher if, say, you augment your stats magically). If you need to make a Wisdom check, you have to roll lower than your Wisdom on a d20. That way we can keep the checks simple and still have higher stats meaning better stats. Skill checks are percentages--if your skill is 45%, you have to roll lower than 45 on a d100. Hit and damage rolls are still higher=better, but this system works pretty well for being intuitive and straightforward in a roleplay-based, bare-bones system like ours.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Everyone assumes he didn't fail. But she didn't say he passed, just gave an answer based on the number he spouted. It could be a church of baby torture or clowns or something.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    Everyone assumes he didn't fail. But she didn't say he passed, just gave an answer based on the number he spouted. It could be a church of baby torture or clowns or something.
    Are...are those churches common in your games?

  • zerzhulzerzhul Registered User, Moderator mod
    Are they not in yours?

  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    zerzhul wrote: »
    Are they not in yours?
    One of them, maybe.
    But clowns are just too creepy to have a church devoted to them.

  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    I have a church of clown torture.

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    Do destructive Pokemon cultists count?

  • APODionysusAPODionysus Registered User regular
    @Hearthstone Update: The way Gabe describes the game makes it INCREDIBLY unappealing to me (irony?) for one of two reasons:
    1. Gabe simply isn't learning the game well (and I refuse to believe he is unable to learn some of the more subtle points of a CCG after over 100 matches), which means the game is way too complicated.

    2. The Matchmaking is utter shit.

    I suppose it could be a combination of the two, but either way, Hearthstone is clearly not for me.

    On a related note, I really don't understand anyone's compulsion to play a game that is so clearly frustrating with so little payoff. That also goes for things like Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy- though those run more along the lines of overcoming arbitrary challenges while being limited by a set of arbitrary rules, instead of mastering and manipulating a set of arbitrary rules better than someone else. I understand wanting to challenge yourself and "see if you can do it", but there's a line, man.

    At least now I know I'd hate it without having to waste time finding out for myself.
    roflstomp wrote: »
    They roll too high (in our particular game, a fail)

    ...roll too high = fail? o_O

    Stats in our game are numbers from 5 to 20 (or higher if, say, you augment your stats magically). If you need to make a Wisdom check, you have to roll lower than your Wisdom on a d20. That way we can keep the checks simple and still have higher stats meaning better stats. Skill checks are percentages--if your skill is 45%, you have to roll lower than 45 on a d100. Hit and damage rolls are still higher=better, but this system works pretty well for being intuitive and straightforward in a roleplay-based, bare-bones system like ours.


    Reading that Hearthstone bit made me want to see what Gabes reaction to having a Turn 2 Pack Rat cast against him.

    Gorram Pack Rat.

  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    @Hearthstone Update: The way Gabe describes the game makes it INCREDIBLY unappealing to me (irony?) for one of two reasons:
    1. Gabe simply isn't learning the game well (and I refuse to believe he is unable to learn some of the more subtle points of a CCG after over 100 matches), which means the game is way too complicated.

    2. The Matchmaking is utter shit.

    I suppose it could be a combination of the two, but either way, Hearthstone is clearly not for me.

    On a related note, I really don't understand anyone's compulsion to play a game that is so clearly frustrating with so little payoff. That also goes for things like Dark Souls and Super Meat Boy- though those run more along the lines of overcoming arbitrary challenges while being limited by a set of arbitrary rules, instead of mastering and manipulating a set of arbitrary rules better than someone else. I understand wanting to challenge yourself and "see if you can do it", but there's a line, man.

    At least now I know I'd hate it without having to waste time finding out for myself.

    Believe me when I say I suck at Hearthstone. It's not my kind of game, though I play it quite a bit. Rather than flail around trying to build powerdecks and being dismantled/schooled by better powerdecks, I tend to theme my decks (I can't put an Amani Berserker in that deck! Why would Anduin have a troll fighting for him?).

    With this in mind, I don't think Hearthstone is too complicated. I haven't really had problems with the matchmaking either. Yeah, I lose a lot, but I do win sometimes, and while for my sanity's sake I don't keep track, I have to imagine I've got a better K/D than he describes. I'm not sure if the matchmaking may be different on iPad (weird, but entirely possible). Or perhaps the losses are just standing out more to him. I know I, as a low skill player, tend to care a lot less about losing (at Hearthstone, Dota2, or whatever) than my mid-skill friends.

    I can't speak for Gabe's experience, but I'd urge you to give Hearthstone a try. I don't think you'll find the matchmaking or the complication level to be as bad as you think.

  • AradonTemplarAradonTemplar Registered User regular
    Per Mike's more recent update, I think we can conclude that the matchmaking wasn't so much 'utter shit' as 'not engaged at all.' Since he was playing casual, it was not evaluating his player skill, and so it had no idea who to match him against, nor did it try to. It reminds me of my experience with SC2. I am not a very good player, but I can play a game of ranked Starcraft and actually build some units and ram them into other units in some manner of entertaining gameplay.

    Matchmaking and ranked games seemed intimidating, but they tend to put you where you need to be to have an engaging time.

  • tapeslingertapeslinger Space Unicorn Slush Ranger Social Justice Rebel ScumRegistered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    I've had situations like this happen in my Call of Cthulhu games, where I needed a player with a skill in Latin to read something to get an important clue - only for them to stuff it up. Turns out you can't read these important passages in the Necronomicon after all! Then I need to spend the rest of the session figuring out some roundabout way of telling them exactly the same information.

    Once I got so aggravated by a bad roll derailing the plot that I just put the hint on a wall in a public bathroom the character visited.

    It was an evil bathroom.

    this reminds me of a time when our group was playing Call of Cthulhu and I figured out that certain monsters were flammable and that I could throw flammable things at them

    so I rolled to throw an oil lamp at one and totally whiffed, because my character was an eccentric spinster crazy cat lady librarian with virtually nothing in str. whoops.jpg

    in the comic:
    I assumed she was talking about him rolling a check, but I also just absorbed the action as something that happened during the cadence of the dialogue, since his entire body is out of frame, so, eh.

  • Crippl3Crippl3 oh noRegistered User regular
    Per Mike's more recent update, I think we can conclude that the matchmaking wasn't so much 'utter shit' as 'not engaged at all.' Since he was playing casual, it was not evaluating his player skill, and so it had no idea who to match him against, nor did it try to. It reminds me of my experience with SC2. I am not a very good player, but I can play a game of ranked Starcraft and actually build some units and ram them into other units in some manner of entertaining gameplay.

    Matchmaking and ranked games seemed intimidating, but they tend to put you where you need to be to have an engaging time.

    I'm so bummed that they took ranked play (League Play) out of Call of Duty: Ghosts. It was one of the best features of Black Ops 2.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    Everyone assumes he didn't fail. But she didn't say he passed, just gave an answer based on the number he spouted. It could be a church of baby torture or clowns or something.

    I love that "baby torture" and "clowns" rank similarly in @ceres hierarchy of evil churches.

    What is this I don't even.
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    I've had situations like this happen in my Call of Cthulhu games, where I needed a player with a skill in Latin to read something to get an important clue - only for them to stuff it up. Turns out you can't read these important passages in the Necronomicon after all! Then I need to spend the rest of the session figuring out some roundabout way of telling them exactly the same information.

    Once I got so aggravated by a bad roll derailing the plot that I just put the hint on a wall in a public bathroom the character visited.

    It was an evil bathroom.

    This is exactly why some GMs choose to roll the dice for players behind a screen (although this takes a trusting group)!

    I actually prefer that someone else roll for me anyway, I am the worst at rolling dice. And not in a "if you need a low roll, just ask Josh to do it" kind of way. If you want me to roll low, I will roll high. Besides, letting someone else handle all the meta stuff like dice rolling and rules lets me just focus on making the decisions I want my character to make.

    I totally crit a teammate in the back once. My only crit in that entire campaign.

    steam_sig.png
  • metroidkillahmetroidkillah Local Bunman Free Country, USARegistered User regular
    edited April 2014
    @AradonTemplar: That's definitely an alternative, but doesn't it make the game even less appealing? The problem with categorizing modes like that is that new or "actually casual" players can be intimidated by the word "ranked". While the denotation may be "This mode uses a matchmaking system to help pair up similarly-skilled players", the connotation is "This gametype is for serious, experienced players only. If you're not in it for the win, don't bother."

    But even casual players (like myself) appreciate being able matched up with similarly-skilled opponents. No one likes losing, but losing because you're horribly outmatched is definitely worse. And on the flip side, losing after a long, hard-fought battle is frustrating in its own way, but you can at least console yourself with the idea that improving your skill will actually mean something.

    And keep in mind, I'm not just speaking about Hearthstone- it's just the example at hand.

    I would think a better solution would have been to not have "casual" and "ranked". You simply go in and play, and the matchmaking system does what it's supposed to do. And since matches are played one hand at a time, with (I assume) no inherent pressure to keep playing, does that not make sense?

    metroidkillah on
    I'm not a nice guy, I just play one in real life.
  • Viktor WaltersViktor Walters Registered User regular
    As far as I can tell, Casual matches you with people of the same Win/Loss ratio. Ranked matches you just by Rank. Usually Casual matches are people testing out new decks for Ranked play or testing crazy experimental nonsense for shenanigans purposes. I'm not very good at Hearthstone but I still win more than I lose, Casual especially.

    The Ranked play is actually pretty awesome and forgiving since it's pretty easy to recover points and while you start at Rank 25, you can't lose Ranking until you go past Rank 20.

  • RaketemenschRaketemensch Registered User regular
    What's up with the jpeg artifacts on the text in all the comics lately? I'm glad Jerry's got his whole portable thing going, but if your main thing is posting JPGs, one would expect that one thing to be done right. The last panel today is pretty bad, like 1994 bad.

  • YoungFreyYoungFrey Registered User regular
    What's up with the jpeg artifacts on the text in all the comics lately? I'm glad Jerry's got his whole portable thing going, but if your main thing is posting JPGs, one would expect that one thing to be done right. The last panel today is pretty bad, like 1994 bad.
    I'm not going to claim the artifacts don't exist, but either I need to see an optometrist, or some people use view the comic *way* bigger than I do.

  • zerzhulzerzhul Registered User, Moderator mod
    Jerry doesn't draw the comics ;)

  • EndaroEndaro Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    I've had situations like this happen in my Call of Cthulhu games, where I needed a player with a skill in Latin to read something to get an important clue - only for them to stuff it up. Turns out you can't read these important passages in the Necronomicon after all! Then I need to spend the rest of the session figuring out some roundabout way of telling them exactly the same information.

    Once I got so aggravated by a bad roll derailing the plot that I just put the hint on a wall in a public bathroom the character visited.

    It was an evil bathroom.

    You should play more Trail of Cthulhu! A very nice Cthulhu game partially designed with this problem in mind.

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