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[European Politics] European Elections: This Time It's Different?

wiltingwilting Registered User regular
edited May 2014 in Debate and/or Discourse
800px-Flag_of_Europe.svg.png

In Varietate Concordia

So there's this thing called the European Union, comprised of some 28 member states and 500 million citizens. It's not a country, but it also isn't not a country. It keeps growing, changing, deepening, widening and touches the lives of its citizens in all kind of ways. It's kind of horrifically and beautifully complicated at the same time, but is actually tiny in comparison to the governments of its member states. This thread is about it and political goings on in Europe generally.

The annual celebration peace and unity in Europe; Europe Day, is approaching on May 5th/9th (depending on who you ask). May day is May 1st.Victory in Europe Day is the 8th/9th (West/East).

The much more celebrated Eurovision Song Contest is on in Cophenhagen 6th, 8th and 10th of May. With the Champion's League and Heineken Cup Finals both on the 24th of May.

Also there are some elections or something? late in May (see further down in OP). So May is a big month. Perhaps more importantly than the European Parliament elections are the Ukranian elections on May 25th.

Some informative videos, not entirely up to date, are found below.

The European Union Explained



How the EU works



What has Europe ever done for us?



Choose Who's In Charge



The European Parliament Elections are approaching with the official theme of "This Time It's Different." The reason being is that for the first time the European Parties have nominated candidates for President of the European Commission (The EU Executive) with the intention of the winning party's candidate becoming Commission President. Up until now the Commission President was selected by the European Council (The Member State Governments, who are the ones who really call the shots). This is due to changes brought in by the Lisbon Treaty which say that the Council should consider the election result in their deliberations. On the one hand, the Council may not want to part with its power easily and could theoretically ignore the election, but on the other hand the Commission ultimately requires Parliament approval and the Parliament could reject a Commission without a winning Presidential candidate at its head. The Parliament has not been afraid of flexing its newly acquired muscles, but the Council continues to be of core importance, as demonstrated in the response to the "Eurozone Crisis." So we could be heading for quite the institutional clash, which will show whether the Union can answer the criticism of it's "democracy deficit."

Meanwhile, this is all happening when Far Right "Eurosceptic" parties are seeing a surge in their support due to the enduring economic malaise, with suggestions they may gain as much as 30% of the Parliament's Seats.

It seems an opportune time to start a thread!

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European Parties/Commission President Candidates

European Political Parties are mishmash alliances of Member State parties which aren't always entirely comfortable bedfellows. Traditionally the Parliament is dominated by a grand coalition of the EPP and S&D, with the former being the largest group. The election isn't likely to change this arrangement, although the possibility exists that the S&D may be able to grab the top spot, and the likely strong Eurosceptic showing will shake things up. Choosing a European Party & Commission President Candidate to support is a difficult proposition though, depending on your electoral system, because your European preference may clash with the MEP and/or national party preferences that you will actually be voting for. Turnout has been dropping in European Parliament elections for years, largely because they are non-executive secondary elections perceived similarly to local elections, also tending to have a large small party and protest vote (which is why a larger Eurosceptic vote may not be as significant as it may appear). If a Commission President Candidate becomes Commission President then arguably European Parliament elections could be upgraded to executive and that trend may be stopped or reversed, but the low turnout could also be used as a ground by the Council to dismiss that whole process out of hand in the first place. Also it is worth remembering that the Council is made up of people also in the European parties.

EPP
European People's Party(Mainstream Centre Right)(Christian Democrats)(267 Seats)
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Jean Claude Juncker Former Prime Minister of Luxembourg
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S&D
Socialists & Democracts(Mainstream Centre Left)(Labour and Socialists)(188 Seats)
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Martin Schulz President of the European Parliament
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ALDE
Alliance of Liberals & Democrats(Europhile Liberals)(85 Seats)
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Guy Verhofstadt Former Prime Minister of Belgium, Founder of the Parliament Federalist Spinelli Group
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Greens & EFA
Greens/European Free Alliance(Greens...)(58 Seats)
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Ska Keller MEP
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ECR
Conservatives & Reformists(Right Eurosceptics)(Tories, Berlusconites and so on)(54 Seats)
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GUE/NGL
European United Left/Nordic Green Left(Far Left Eurosceptics)(Sinn Fein and Communists)(34 Seats)
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Alexis Tsiparis Greek Opposition Leader/Leader of the Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA)
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EFD
Freedom and Democracy (EFD) (Far Right Europhobes)(UKIP, Lega Nord et al)(35 Seats)
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ISSUES

- Power of Parliament and Commission vs that of Council
- Austerity and Debt
- Immigration, Migrant Rights
- Economic Integration (Banking Union, Eurobonds etc)
- Political Integration?
- Unemployment, particularly Youth and Long Term
- Ukraine & Syria
- Transatlantic Free Trade Agreement, Spying & Data Protection
- Voter turnout!

CAMPAIGN

The first of three televised debates between the Commission President Candidates, fielding questions from University Students and social media, was hosted by Euronews on April 28th. It is available to watch on the Euronews website, divided in three parts: economy, future and foreign policy.
The Candidates will also be touring each Member State.

Two more debates are yet to come in May.

wilting on
ronyaspool32BobCesca
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Posts

  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    To separate my own opinions from the OP:

    The low level of national media reporting of the first televised debate in Ireland so far (as in, none on the night of the debate) irks me somewhat. We can't build a democratic Union if the media don't report on elections! European Election reporting remains most interested in how national parties are going to do.

    The first debate was fairly academic and friendly in tone, with a fair few laughs and all the candidates making salient points.

    I felt Juncker was the worst performer, seeming confused and slow to respond to questions at times, droning on in technical terms, but he was a valuable realist voice - or at least a reminder of the views of a strong bloc in comparison to other candidates.

    Keller is something of a young small party female misfit among the old heavyweight bigger party men, but I thought she held her own, renewables for green jobs and energy independence from Russia and so forth. She did a good job of pointing out that the other parties are all in bed with each other in the Council.

    I'd say it was a tie between Schulz and Verhofstadt, who both took articulate pro-integration positions, although Verhofstadt seemed to play down his Federalist credentials.

    Right now I'm personally leaning towards Schulz, as I liked him and the S&D are the only ones who could upset the EPP majority. But the Irish Labour Party are facing an election massacre so I doubt a vote for them will make it to European level. The next most viable choice is Verhofstadt and ALDE, but that would mean having to vote for the hated Fianna Fail, knowing that their presence in ALDE is something of a happenstance. Luckily we have STV here. But really I don't want to vote for any Irish Party... *sigh*

    wilting on
  • Clown ShoesClown Shoes Give me hay or give me death. Registered User regular
    wilting wrote: »
    ...also tending to have a large small party and protest vote (which is why a larger Eurosceptic vote may not be as significant as it may appear).


    I'll be voting UKIP just to scare our local Tories.

    I have some issues with the EU - the European Arrest Warrants, the cost of running the Parliament/Commission etc - but I don't actually want to leave. It's a good bulwark against some of the more draconian ideas of our own politicians and it's the only realistic method for tackling large companies that threaten to leave any time a national politician says something they don't like.

    Dis'
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    One of the best things the Union does is protect citizens from, or provide avenues of appeal against, their own Governments.

    The Union could hardly be called financially efficient, but at about 1% of GDP its a drop in the ocean in comparison to Member State Governments, which generally take up about 50%. Can definitely understand people being uncomfortable with the European Arrest Warrants.

    Seeing European Elections purely in national or local terms is exactly the kind of problematic for democracy thing I'm against I'm afraid.

    What amuses me about UKIP is that if they are successful they lose their reason to exist. Which also makes me wary of their motives, because their rational electoral self interest is for a badly functioning Union as possible to use as a bogeyman. This is kind of generally true for all protest small parties for whatever system they oppose, I suppose, though. Also, the War of Independence/Civil War based political parties we have in Ireland just refuse to die despite their form being irrelevant to the present.

    If I was a UK voter I would definitely go for Labour, on purely strategic considerations, them being in by far the largest European Parliament group in comparison to other UK parties - and the group most likely to actually change something.

    wilting on
  • GaryOGaryO Registered User regular
    wilting wrote: »
    One of the best things the Union does is protect citizens from, or provide avenues of appeal against, their own Governments.

    The Union could hardly be called financially efficient, but at about 1% of GDP its a drop in the ocean in comparison to Member State Governments, which generally take up about 50%. Can definitely understand people being uncomfortable with the European Arrest Warrants.

    Seeing European Elections purely in national or local terms is exactly the kind of problematic for democracy thing I'm against I'm afraid.

    What amuses me about UKIP is that if they are successful they lose their reason to exist. Which also makes me wary of their motives, because their rational electoral self interest is for a badly functioning Union as possible to use as a bogeyman. This is kind of generally true for all protest small parties for whatever system they oppose, I suppose, though Also, the War of Independence/Civil War based political parties we have in Ireland just refuse to die despite their form being irrelevant to the present.

    If I was a UK voter I would definitely go for Labour, on purely strategic considerations, them being in by far the largest European Parliament group in comparison to other UK parties - and the group most likely to actually change something.

    Wasn't there a poll the other day that says UKIP is actually leading the potential votes in some areas?
    And if by some miracle UKIP somehow wins an election and succeeds in its goal to seperate Europe from the UK their goal will just shift to 'kick out everyone not British/white'

  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    UKIP is doing well in the UK, but its part of one the smallest groups in the European Parliament, and will remain in opposition. Labour is the UK party which is top dog in European terms - its in the second biggest European Parliament group (S&D), which will have a role in forming the Commission, legislating and whatnot, and has some chance of winning the election. Tories screwed themselves by leaving the largest group, the EPP, for the small ECR, making themselves irrelevant in the European Parliament (and reducing their ties to the centre right European mainstream), and also giving them some uncomfortable bedfellows. Lib Dems are in ALDE, which has some influence but is small in comparison to the EPP and S&D, and obviously they are going to get screwed electorally. I'd vote for the Irish Labour Party if they weren't experiencing the same junior coalition partner at time of recession collapse in support. Well, I'll vote for them anyway because of STV (I generally vote all the way down the line, excluding only Sinn Fein, the Socialist Party, and their bedfellows), but it probably won't mean much.

    wilting on
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    Good OP wiking!

    I am still unsure of how to vote but I am pro Europe and anti referendum (UK issue) so that means I can't vote UKIP or for the Tories. It shall have to be Labour, the Greens or the Lib Dems. Of those three my views still closely align with the Liberals on Europe and I feel Labour is soft on this issue. Milliband not so much though.

    We also have local government elections for the London councils and the London regional assembly on the same day.

    Kalkino on
    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    Am I right in thinking the UK European Elections use a STV system?

    Local elections in Ireland also. As well as new stupid massive European Parliament constituencies that make no damn sense. Should go for smaller single seat constituencies IMO.

    EDIT: I should probably add that Europe day is coming up to the OP. Also, more importantly, Eurovision. Wait, AND the Champions League and Heineken Cup Finals? May is a big Europe month.

    wilting on
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    The mainland and Northern Ireland use different systems


    NI uses STV, the rest use closed list proportional
    https://www.gov.uk/voting-in-the-uk/european-elections

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    Ahhh.

    Hmm now I'm wondering how Victory Day, and to a lesser extent Europe Day, will play out in Ukraine. Eurovision is going to be tense as well. What are the bets Ukraine will win? Their entry is serviceable.

    wilting on
  • jammujammu Never-Ending, Never Alone Registered User regular
    wilting wrote: »
    Am I right in thinking the UK European Elections use a STV system?

    Local elections in Ireland also. As well as new stupid massive European Parliament constituencies that make no damn sense. Should go for smaller single seat constituencies IMO.

    Or use the Small European Country method and have just a single combined region for all. That way minor parties get some love as well.

    As a Finn I'm choosing between Green party and Socialist one (GUE/NGL). I'll Probably end up voting green as they are more Pro-EU and federalists.




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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    Looking for the debate mentioned above brought me to this



    Politically Nick Clegg's LibDems has in the past seemed pretty good (although as I understand it their alliance with the Tories has possibly changed that) but damn the UKIP guy kicked his ass there. And that's coming in with the knowledge the UKIP is pretty much Bigots Inc

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    QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
  • TroggTrogg Registered User regular
    Kalkino wrote: »
    The mainland and Northern Ireland use different systems

    NI uses STV, the rest use closed list proportional
    https://www.gov.uk/voting-in-the-uk/european-elections
    NI here. I will be voting for Alliance, SDLP and Green-NI in that order. I am very sympathetic to Green environmentalism as an idea, but as long as they are opposed to nuclear energy they are basically just shills for the fossil fuel industry in practical terms. This is why they are my last choice rather than first.
    PantsB wrote: »
    Looking for the debate mentioned above brought me to this



    Politically Nick Clegg's LibDems has in the past seemed pretty good (although as I understand it their alliance with the Tories has possibly changed that) but damn the UKIP guy kicked his ass there. And that's coming in with the knowledge the UKIP is pretty much Bigots Inc
    Nigel Farage is commonly accepted by right-wing fruitbats as their spokesman. Nick Clegg speaks for nobody. He's a cipher. It's like in the GOP convention when the actor talked to the empty chair. That's literally what that debate was.

    AManFromEarthClown Shoes
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    So, non UK types, how is the local media covering the EU elections? I don't really see a great deal outside of whether UKIP will do well or not

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • AbsalonAbsalon Registered User regular
    I am voting for the Left Party here in Sweden, not so much because I want out of the EU but simply because I feel safe with how they will vote on issues where the Social Democrats might be a bit soft in the spine.

    Panda4You
  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Here in Germany there isn't that much coverage. Lots of election posters though. And sadly alot of those are from small right wing europhobic parties. Over the last few years anti-europe and anti-immigration views apparently have become quite a bit more accepted especially in the middle and upper class. It is really aggravated at the moment having to see see slogans like "citizen courage stops asylum-seekers flood"(it rhymes in german), every day on the way to work.

    KalkinoMvrck
  • CalixtusCalixtus Registered User regular
    Kalkino wrote: »
    So, non UK types, how is the local media covering the EU elections? I don't really see a great deal outside of whether UKIP will do well or not
    Poorly, mostly, here in Sweden.

    The worst offenders are the various tests published by media that are supposed to tell you who to vote for. They insist on using issues that aren't handled at the EU level as questions, which doesn't do a whole lot of useful things when it comes to informing the public about the EU election.

    -This message was deviously brought to you by:
  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    I haven't really heard much about the European elections. Certainly haven't seen any campaign posters.

    I'm wavering between the Greens and the United Left.

    I like the idea of the European Union. But right now 'Europe' seems to be too distant, too disconnected and too influenced by big, powerful nations that, when the chips are down, really only look out for number 1.

    So I don't know. Truth be told, I haven't looked into it much either.

  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    Interesting how many people are Green orientated. Irish Green Party is reviled after being junior coalition partner when the recession hit.

    Hopefully the new Commission President election procedure will change things, but its hard to see how when national media won't even report on it, pissing me off.

  • jammujammu Never-Ending, Never Alone Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    That must be FPTP thing, as I remember Brits/Canadians complaining about coalitions too.
    Finland hasn't had a non-coalition majority since early 20th century, so Greens have been part of the goverment few times, without being called sellouts.

    jammu on
    Ww8FAMg.jpg
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    The minor party decline after government in is a big problem in NZ too. We've had 5 elections under MMP and all governments have relied on a coalition or support agreement.

    All of the minor parties seem to have been punished or otherwise collapsed. Some have revived, some haven't.

    The only minor party who has never had a proper role so far are the Greens and they have been the third party for two terms now.

    They are stronger than the others but I can't help thinking they'd also be punished if they form part if a coalition after this years general election.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • BotznoyBotznoy Registered User regular
    Kalkino wrote: »
    The minor party decline after government in is a big problem in NZ too. We've had 5 elections under MMP and all governments have relied on a coalition or support agreement.

    All of the minor parties seem to have been punished or otherwise collapsed. Some have revived, some haven't.

    The only minor party who has never had a proper role so far are the Greens and they have been the third party for two terms now.

    They are stronger than the others but I can't help thinking they'd also be punished if they form part if a coalition after this years general election.

    It would be funny for them to continue the trend of minor parties just exploding after the election

    IZF2byN.jpg

    Want to play co-op games? Feel free to hit me up!
    Kalkino
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    Coalitions are the norm in Ireland with STV, but junior partners suffering electorally is a universal political norm as far as I'm concerned. One party, the Progressive Democrats, were completely wiped out. There has been something of a NIMBY backlash against wind turbines in recent years in Ireland as well, which can't be helping the Greens. Its a pity that deal to build turbines in Ireland to supply the UK fell through.

    I like the idea of smaller countries having a single European Parliament constituency, elegant in its simplicity.

  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited April 2014

    I like the idea of the European Union. But right now 'Europe' seems to be too distant, too disconnected and too influenced by big, powerful nations that, when the chips are down, really only look out for number 1.
    As a USian, the EU seems like a retread of our failed Articles of Confederation - its a pseudo-government of member states that aren't truly unified and lacks the actual authority to enact its mandates. That failed and there was a long robust political debate over the problems with that form of government. A stronger central government was created on the idea of an American people and American states in union. It probably wasn't until after the Civil War that this idea became fully integrated (especially in the South, people saw themselves as citizens of their state and not of the US until the mid/late 19th century) but it existed enough that the government could function

    If I was from a big/rich EU country (UK, France, Germany, maybe Italy if their government wasn't so corrupt) I wouldn't want my country's sovereignty encroached upon since my country would be where a disproportionate amount of the power and riches were coming from. The only way it makes sense to be part of the EU is if my country has similarly disproportionate power over the decisions so the sovereignty wouldn't be similarly restrained.

    If I was from a small/poor EU country, I'd be conflicted because there are economic benefits, but I'd be concerned that my country was just becoming a client state of Germany/France/UK. If the big countries controlled the continental government that would make seem a very real concern.

    It doesn't seem like most of the people of the EU countries seem themselves primarily or in any real way "Europeans" as a part of their identity. Some surely do, but most it seems see themselves as French or Dutch or Italian or Catalan. The trend seems towards devolution, not unification, if anything with movements towards regional autonomy/independence in parts of the UK, Spain, Italy. People from Galway don't seem to see themselves as in a unified society with people from Sicily, and increasingly people from Glasgow don't seem themselves as part of a unified society as people in Kent. If Europeans don't seem themselves as part of a unified European society it seems unlikely that a EU as a central government can really work.

    It makes me a bit uncomfortable to be a "euro-sceptic" because the people who seem to be pushing the anti-EU ideas seem to be right wing bigots for the most part but I don't know if that's just how its portrayed.

    PantsB on
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    QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
  • CornucopiistCornucopiist Registered User regular
    The idea is that this time you can vote for a European Parliament that is stronger. This is good because it's more democratic, with the EP working closely with the member states parliaments. Much of what people hate about the EU is actually stuff pushed by their own governments in the Council. The Commission is a bit caught in the middle but tends to favour the Council, too.
    Now, I'm voting Green, which is anyway very democratic. But between the three main blocks and their candidates the socio-economical diffferences are less outspoken than their visions on Europe. That makes it possible for any euro-sceptic willing to do the research to vote for the Europe they'd like to see.

  • CalixtusCalixtus Registered User regular
    The problem with the European Union is that it does some of the things it was supposed to do admirably - the common market is nice, the marked decrease in wars is goddamn fantastic, general improvements in terms of human rights and living conditions. Inter-state negotiations can be carried out in a more democratic forum, the European Parliament. Larger issues that transcend nations states - climate change, large scale migrations, various other geopolitical problems - can be adressed collaboratively.

    We have peace, prosperity by the standards of the vast majority of the world, and togheter we are stronger. So what's the problem?

    Well, its not free, you see. To improve the living conditions of our neighbouring countries, we need to spend money. You can't fix poverty with handwringing and words about solidarity, you need money. Yes, the Union involves wealth transfers. It involves the richer countries directly transfering wealth to poorer nations. It involves people moving across borders, it involves migrations.

    Its well past time the people of Europe got used to that, so we don't have to get used to having a new war every other decade again. That fucking sucked.

    -This message was deviously brought to you by:
    PLA
  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    PantsB wrote: »

    I like the idea of the European Union. But right now 'Europe' seems to be too distant, too disconnected and too influenced by big, powerful nations that, when the chips are down, really only look out for number 1.
    As a USian, the EU seems like a retread of our failed Articles of Confederation - its a pseudo-government of member states that aren't truly unified and lacks the actual authority to enact its mandates. That failed and there was a long robust political debate over the problems with that form of government. A stronger central government was created on the idea of an American people and American states in union. It probably wasn't until after the Civil War that this idea became fully integrated (especially in the South, people saw themselves as citizens of their state and not of the US until the mid/late 19th century) but it existed enough that the government could function

    If I was from a big/rich EU country (UK, France, Germany, maybe Italy if their government wasn't so corrupt) I wouldn't want my country's sovereignty encroached upon since my country would be where a disproportionate amount of the power and riches were coming from. The only way it makes sense to be part of the EU is if my country has similarly disproportionate power over the decisions so the sovereignty wouldn't be similarly restrained.

    If I was from a small/poor EU country, I'd be conflicted because there are economic benefits, but I'd be concerned that my country was just becoming a client state of Germany/France/UK. If the big countries controlled the continental government that would make seem a very real concern.

    It doesn't seem like most of the people of the EU countries seem themselves primarily or in any real way "Europeans" as a part of their identity. Some surely do, but most it seems see themselves as French or Dutch or Italian or Catalan. The trend seems towards devolution, not unification, if anything with movements towards regional autonomy/independence in parts of the UK, Spain, Italy. People from Galway don't seem to see themselves as in a unified society with people from Sicily, and increasingly people from Glasgow don't seem themselves as part of a unified society as people in Kent. If Europeans don't seem themselves as part of a unified European society it seems unlikely that a EU as a central government can really work.

    It makes me a bit uncomfortable to be a "euro-sceptic" because the people who seem to be pushing the anti-EU ideas seem to be right wing bigots for the most part but I don't know if that's just how its portrayed.

    I think the EU is what enables those smaller national movements. It is actually viable to form a Scotland or a Catalonia because if they obtained EU membership, they would still be integrated into the larger European economy, instead of being isolated without the mother country's economy and trade partners to support them.

    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    @PantsB‌

    A few things:

    1) The EU can and does enforce its powers in a wide variety of areas. Member States can be and are chastised for breaking the rules, and they consent to this because they are invested in the system as a whole. Environmental regulation and free movement are particular examples. This is more true than ever in the aftermath of the "Euro Crisis". A lot of the expansion of EU competencies have been the result of the ECJ ruling in favour of citizens or private bodies against Member States, and is then formalized in treaties after the fact. The competencies and power of the Union and its supranational institutions is continuously growing.
    2) Within the EU, smaller countries can pool their efforts and actually get out from under the skirts of larger neighbours. For example, EU and Eurozone membership is seen by many in Ireland as a means to get out from under Britain's skirts. No European state, no matter how large, exists in isolation, they are heavily mutual dependent economically, politically, and for security. The system that exists does so because the Member States have created it, because they believe it to be in their rational self interest, in more senses than can be reduced to simple numbers. Much of EU policy operates on a regional, not national, basis, so poorer areas within ostensibly large wealthy states benefit. These "regions" don't even follow traditional boundaries; they are based on economic, social data etc for the purpose of best policy making.
    3) You are seriously underestimating how many (particularly young) people genuinely feel European, which is not mutually exclusive with national (or regional, or local) identity, and the power of European values (witness: Ukrainian Euromaidan movement). As Jephery said, many of the separatist movements within Europe now want to be independent from their parent state within Europe.

    wilting on
  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    If anyone is interested, this site lets you compare the all these different vote chosing programs with the statements of the parties from all over europe.

    https://map.votematch.eu/

    Kalkinowilting
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    The right wing skeptics certainly are the most noticeable now Pants, but opposition is also on the left. For example, in the UK, the Labour Party promised a referendum on membership after the Conservatives joined the EEC, which was held in 1975. A lot of these people still are around. Certainly some Labour activists I know are pretty anti EU

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Clown ShoesClown Shoes Give me hay or give me death. Registered User regular
    The right wing are just better funded and organised.

    Plus, in the UK at least, there's always a bit of the island mentality to play up to.

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    You mean "Britain is an island nation, not of Europe but right next to Europe and intimately involved with Europe forever because you can see both bits from each other but we are really different all the same, honest"

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Clown ShoesClown Shoes Give me hay or give me death. Registered User regular
    No, I mean, "Fuck off, this is our rock!"

    Kalkino
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    If anyone is interested, this site lets you compare the all these different vote chosing programs with the statements of the parties from all over europe.

    https://map.votematch.eu/

    Super useful. Irish candidate that I am closest to is running in my constituency, good to know.

  • TroggTrogg Registered User regular
    Kalkino wrote: »
    The right wing skeptics certainly are the most noticeable now Pants, but opposition is also on the left. For example, in the UK, the Labour Party promised a referendum on membership after the Conservatives joined the EEC, which was held in 1975. A lot of these people still are around. Certainly some Labour activists I know are pretty anti EU
    I'm pro-United States of Europe and even I'm in favour of a referendum. Britain can't engage in a meaningful way with Europe while something as basic as membership is a matter of serious public debate. We need to get this sword of damocles out of the way and establish a democratic mandate for moving forward with Europe.

  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    I've got family in places. I've had family in more places. I'm european.

  • Clown ShoesClown Shoes Give me hay or give me death. Registered User regular
    When I see French and Germans, I'm English.

    When Russia turn up, I'm European.

  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Trogg wrote: »
    Kalkino wrote: »
    The right wing skeptics certainly are the most noticeable now Pants, but opposition is also on the left. For example, in the UK, the Labour Party promised a referendum on membership after the Conservatives joined the EEC, which was held in 1975. A lot of these people still are around. Certainly some Labour activists I know are pretty anti EU
    I'm pro-United States of Europe and even I'm in favour of a referendum. Britain can't engage in a meaningful way with Europe while something as basic as membership is a matter of serious public debate. We need to get this sword of damocles out of the way and establish a democratic mandate for moving forward with Europe.

    Principled federalism should be about subsidiarity and democracy, not everything at European level just because lol, so I concur.

    Well, for a lot of people in Eastern Europe, Europeaness is explicitly not Russian/Soviet. I know of an awful lot of "mixed" European married (or otherwise) couples and/or people living in different parts of Europe than their origin.

    wilting on
    Kalkino
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    I'm not pro US of E but I am pro the way things are at present. I just wish the Euro hadn't been a mess

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    But the reason the Euro was a mess was because it was monetary union without the required fiscal union without the required political union.

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Well sure, but letting in unstable countries like Greece didn't help.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
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