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Security Questions and Guns

thetemp2011thetemp2011 Registered User regular
I'm just wondering with all the craziness going around with shootings in the news lately are there any policies in the convention center on weapons, I read the general security FAQ that they had on the PAX site I know they wont allow NERF guns or BB Guns of course but I would like to hear something more specific in regards to keeping people secure. I have been to two PAX conventions and I noticed anyone with a badge can go in and out without going through metal detectors or any type of security check in the convention center and I would also like to know if there would be new security protocols to expect.

Posts

  • zerzhulzerzhul Registered User, Moderator mod
    Guns are not permitted in the WSCC. As far as what measures are taken to prevent that, that's not something anyone here who is not involved directly in PAX security should speculate about. I'll leave it to those folks to answer that question in further detail.

  • Robert KhooRobert Khoo Registered User, Administrator, ClubPA, Penny Arcade Staff, PAX Staff staff
    Zerzhul is correct - no firearms are allowed at the WSCC, legally concealed or not. We have police officers on site at all times (both uniformed and otherwise) as well as private outside security.

    That said, anyone that knows me understands how seriously I take security at PAX - it's something that's always at the forefront of our discussions, internally.

    Some guy.
    adias.angelbrettpoolRhea_starstormembraceternityLegacy
  • thetemp2011thetemp2011 Registered User regular
    Should we be expecting more stringent bag checks and or metal detectors during the convention?

  • thetemp2011thetemp2011 Registered User regular
    I forgot to thank you for answering my questions I know I may sound paranoid but security is always in the back of my mind and thanks again for making me feel at ease.

  • CrielCriel Registered User regular
    Going off of security, what are the official rules for the convention? I can only see the forum rules but I assume there's a thread somewhere for pax rules, can someone provide the link?

  • SkeleVaderSkeleVader Your Friendly Dark Lord of Destruction Registered User regular
    Criel wrote: »
    Going off of security, what are the official rules for the convention? I can only see the forum rules but I assume there's a thread somewhere for pax rules, can someone provide the link?

    Here is a link to the six rules of Pax:
    http://prime.paxsite.com/safety-and-security

    Criel
  • adias.angeladias.angel Tech-Savvy Wife Kalamazoo, MIRegistered User regular
    Criel wrote: »
    Going off of security, what are the official rules for the convention? I can only see the forum rules but I assume there's a thread somewhere for pax rules, can someone provide the link?

    This might be what your looking for http://prime.paxsite.com/safety-and-security

    Prime 2015 Status: .{} 4-Day Badges .{} Hotel .{} Plane Tickets .{} Waiting Patiently .
    Attendee: Prime '12, '13, '14 .. East '12
    Criel
  • hobbseltoffhobbseltoff Sammamish, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2014
    For what it's worth, I got this response when I asked about this last year:

    hobbseltoff on
    nPJsSHf.png
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  • Robert KhooRobert Khoo Registered User, Administrator, ClubPA, Penny Arcade Staff, PAX Staff staff
    Given the distributed nature of the show (it's spread out across 8 venues, and so much of Prime in particular occurs outside of the walls of those venues), doing bag checks or having metal detectors wouldn't be practical/effective.

    For reference, In Boston, the venue determined the proximity (geographically and date wise) to the Boston Marathon Bombing anniversary warranted doing bag checks at our single venue, which we felt was absolutely reasonable.

    Some guy.
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    For what it's worth I can't think of any kind of violent incident that's ever happened at PAX.

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
  • bacon_avengerbacon_avenger Defender of Pork Products Pacific NW, USARegistered User regular
    The worst I can recall/know of was finding an abandoned luggage bag along the sooper sekrit path to the homewood with what looked like drug paraphernalia in it.

    PAX Prim..err, West 2019 Checklist:[X]Hotel [X]Time Off [X]Bobcats [ ]Challenge Coin [ ]Forum Badge
    (Holy crap, it's been 7 years, planning on 8 next)
    wcn5c8r1la7v.png
  • LindabearLindabear Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    For what it's worth I can't think of any kind of violent incident that's ever happened at PAX.

    Hey, we can never be too sure...

    I'm an alumni from the high school in Oregon and I never expected that to happen in my own hometown.

    PAX Prime 2013 [X]
    PAX Prime 2014 [X]
    PAX Prime 2015 [X]
    Criel
  • CrielCriel Registered User regular
    Lindabear wrote: »
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    For what it's worth I can't think of any kind of violent incident that's ever happened at PAX.

    Hey, we can never be too sure...

    I'm an alumni from the high school in Oregon and I never expected that to happen in my own hometown.

    This can't be more well put, especially with how quick these tickets go, if some crazy person who was dying to go doesn't get to go... :| We all seen some of the posts after tickets were sold out.

    Better safe than sorry

    bacon_avengerLindabearRhea_starstorm
  • AaronCAaronC Enforcer - Lieutenant Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    If anyone has any additional questions or concerns they are welcome to talk to me here or via PM. I will be happy to continue the discussion.



    adias.angel
  • Brock_ChestertonBrock_Chesterton Registered User new member
    edited June 2014
    Zerzhul is correct - no firearms are allowed at the WSCC, legally concealed or not. We have police officers on site at all times (both uniformed and otherwise) as well as private outside security.

    That said, anyone that knows me understands how seriously I take security at PAX - it's something that's always at the forefront of our discussions, internally.

    Absolutely untrue, see RCW 9.41.300 (2b). Having a Washington CPL is an exemption.

    Brock_Chesterton on
    TMIBshdwcaster
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Zerzhul is correct - no firearms are allowed at the WSCC, legally concealed or not. We have police officers on site at all times (both uniformed and otherwise) as well as private outside security.

    That said, anyone that knows me understands how seriously I take security at PAX - it's something that's always at the forefront of our discussions, internally.

    Absolutely untrue, see RCW 9.41.300 (2b). Having a Washington CPL is an exemption.

    Legal doesn't mean allowed, it just means legal. As in, you can be kicked out of PAX and told not to come back or you'll be trespassing, but you won't be arrested. But yes, to my knowledge you are correct, you will not be specifically breaking the law by carrying into the WSCC.

    vespachica
  • Brock_ChestertonBrock_Chesterton Registered User new member
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Zerzhul is correct - no firearms are allowed at the WSCC, legally concealed or not. We have police officers on site at all times (both uniformed and otherwise) as well as private outside security.

    That said, anyone that knows me understands how seriously I take security at PAX - it's something that's always at the forefront of our discussions, internally.

    Absolutely untrue, see RCW 9.41.300 (2b). Having a Washington CPL is an exemption.

    Legal doesn't mean allowed, it just means legal. As in, you can be kicked out of PAX and told not to come back or you'll be trespassing, but you won't be arrested. But yes, to my knowledge you are correct, you will not be specifically breaking the law by carrying into the WSCC.

    Sure, a private property owner can trespass you on general principles, but that's not what Mr. Khoo said. His statement about it being disallowed for licensed CPL holders is flat out misinformation.

    TMIB
  • LegacyLegacy SCP Of The Digital Frontier The Grid(Seattle)Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2014
    Seriously, dude? Mr. Brock Chesterton? Registered at 3:50 today to post these things at 3:51 and 4:30?

    This is just silly. SILLY.

    The only guns that belong at PAX are NERF guns and those were even banned from PAX before PAX left Bellevue.

    I do miss the Nerf Wars, though...

    Legacy on
    Can we get the chemicals in. 'Cause anything's better than this.
    adias.angelRhea_starstorm
  • TMIBTMIB Registered User regular
    Legacy wrote: »
    Seriously, dude? Mr. Brock Chesterton? Registered at 3:50 today to post these things at 3:51 and 4:30?

    This is just silly. SILLY.

    The only guns that belong at PAX are NERF guns and those were even banned from PAX before PAX left Bellevue.

    I do miss the Nerf Wars, though...

    On your first point, I imagine there are a lot of PAX folks that just lurk here until they find something they want to respond to. Just because someone hasn't posted here before doesn't mean they're not a PAX'er.

    And I don't believe this is silly at all. Washington State Law is pretty clear on the subject, and PAX isn't the only event that occurs at WSCC. I don't see anything wrong with someone trying to correct disinformation.


    Legacy
  • Brock_ChestertonBrock_Chesterton Registered User new member
    Legacy wrote: »
    Seriously, dude? Mr. Brock Chesterton? Registered at 3:50 today to post these things at 3:51 and 4:30?

    I was linked here from another site, and decided to register to dispel the misinformation.

    This is just silly. SILLY.

    The only guns that belong at PAX are NERF guns and those were even banned from PAX before PAX left Bellevue.

    I do miss the Nerf Wars, though...

    I don't really know what to say to this, other than for some, no explanation is necessary.. for others, none will do. That doesn't change the law.

    Legacy
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Zerzhul is correct - no firearms are allowed at the WSCC, legally concealed or not. We have police officers on site at all times (both uniformed and otherwise) as well as private outside security.

    That said, anyone that knows me understands how seriously I take security at PAX - it's something that's always at the forefront of our discussions, internally.

    Absolutely untrue, see RCW 9.41.300 (2b). Having a Washington CPL is an exemption.

    Legal doesn't mean allowed, it just means legal. As in, you can be kicked out of PAX and told not to come back or you'll be trespassing, but you won't be arrested. But yes, to my knowledge you are correct, you will not be specifically breaking the law by carrying into the WSCC.

    Sure, a private property owner can trespass you on general principles, but that's not what Mr. Khoo said. His statement about it being disallowed for licensed CPL holders is flat out misinformation.

    I don't know, I read his words. As bolded, "no firearms are allowed at the WSCC, legally concealed or not." Hence, you may legally conceal a firearm within the WSCC (implied by words "legally concealed"). But this is does not seem to be allowed by the WSCC, and definitely is not allowed by PAX. Again, legal and allowed are two entirely different things. Neither Zerzhul nor Khoo said "it is unlawful to carry concealed at PAX." They said it is not allowed. There exist more authorities within society than the police and courts, to include (in this case) property owners and event management. When you attend an event, you are agreeing to abide by their rules, as to what they do and do not allow.

    Carry or don't at PAX. But yes, if caught they can trespass you (just as they can for doing a multitude of other things that are legal but not allowed).

    I have a concealed carry permit. I generally advocate for concealed carry. All the same, the organizers of PAX have the right to decide if they want concealed carry at their event, and they've chosen no. If you violate that rule, they can take whatever appropriate action is within their power, and absolutely should.

    Legacyadias.angelcfoshdwcaster
  • adias.angeladias.angel Tech-Savvy Wife Kalamazoo, MIRegistered User regular
    edited June 2014
    I don't really know what to say to this, other than for some, no explanation is necessary.. for others, none will do. That doesn't change the law.

    Look if you are here for some kind of legal/political debate you are in the wrong place. The question was what is PA going to do to keep things safe. This has nothing to do with the legalities of carrying with a permit. PA says no guns or you will be booted out. That's the correct answer to the question. Please stay on topic.

    adias.angel on
    Prime 2015 Status: .{} 4-Day Badges .{} Hotel .{} Plane Tickets .{} Waiting Patiently .
    Attendee: Prime '12, '13, '14 .. East '12
    LegacyRhea_starstormcfovespachicaBLaZuRECriel
  • TMIBTMIB Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »

    I don't know, I read his words. As bolded, "no firearms are allowed at the WSCC, legally concealed or not." Hence, you may legally conceal a firearm within the WSCC (implied by words "legally concealed"). But this is does not seem to be allowed by the WSCC, and definitely is not allowed by PAX. Again, legal and allowed are two entirely different things. Neither Zerzhul nor Khoo said "it is unlawful to carry concealed at PAX." They said it is not allowed. There exist more authorities within society than the police and courts, to include (in this case) property owners and event management. When you attend an event, you are agreeing to abide by their rules, as to what they do and do not allow.

    Just to be clear though, as you note, legal and allowed are two different things. PAX, being a private party, can make their own policies. However the WSCC cannot do so when it comes to certain things, such as concealed carry of a firearm. So when you say "this does not seem to be allowed by the WSCC", that's not correct. Whether they like it or not, they can't do that. Private groups using the facility may be able to do so, but the WSCC themselves can't make a blanket rule like that, they are in violation of state law if they do. As I noted earlier, other groups use the WSCC during the year, and despite efforts to the contrary, the WSCC doesn't get to make the rules in this regard for other organizations. PAX can make their own policies, and so can other groups. The WSCC is not a private party and doesn't get that luxury. That's the point I was trying to clear up, and why Khoo's statement was incorrect, or at least misleading.



  • TMIBTMIB Registered User regular
    I don't really know what to say to this, other than for some, no explanation is necessary.. for others, none will do. That doesn't change the law.

    Look if you are here for some kind of legal/political debate you are in the wrong place. The question was what is PA going to do to keep things safe. This has nothing to do with the legalities of carrying with a permit. PA says no guns or you will be booted out. That's the correct answer to the question. Please stay on topic.

    Topics change. This doesn't have to be a legal/political debate in order to have a discussion. The original question was answered, but there was some misleading information given as well, hence the response that brought up the legal issues. I don't find anything wrong with continuing a civil discussion about how the law works and how it affects the WSCC. I'm sorry if you feel the need to direct or end the conversation, but no one is forcing you to participate.



    And speaking of topic change- when I say "how it affects the WSCC". Is it affects or effects? I think it's an "a" not an "e", since it has a direct subject of the verb, but I always get this one confused. :)

  • adias.angeladias.angel Tech-Savvy Wife Kalamazoo, MIRegistered User regular
    edited June 2014
    TMIB wrote: »
    I'm sorry if you feel the need to direct or end the conversation, but no one is forcing you to participate.

    No what I feel is you are putting a bunch of info here an average PAX goer cares very little about. We care about going to PAX, having fun, playing games and staying safe. You on the other hand are simply trolling to put out your feelings about CC. What people come to this thread to see is about safety concern without having to sift through tons of useless comments about legal/lawfulness of concealed carry.

    FWIW, I don't care about the legal side. If someone cares about the legal side they can go research the state laws. What I care about is what PA says is the rules for PAX. This forum is for PAX specifically. You want to talk guns and laws, go find a forum for firearms. If you want I can happily PM you a few links.

    adias.angel on
    Prime 2015 Status: .{} 4-Day Badges .{} Hotel .{} Plane Tickets .{} Waiting Patiently .
    Attendee: Prime '12, '13, '14 .. East '12
    vespachica
  • DeimirDeimir Registered User regular
    TMIB wrote: »
    And speaking of topic change- when I say "how it affects the WSCC". Is it affects or effects? I think it's an "a" not an "e", since it has a direct subject of the verb, but I always get this one confused. :)

    "Affects" is the correct usage here. To use "effect," the phrasing would be "how it has an effect on the WSCC." I don't know how grammatically correct the second statement is past that, though. And I've now exhausted all knowledge I have that is pertinent to ANY of the discussion going on in this thread. :)

    Time off: done. Hotel: ??? Travel: ??? Badges: ???
    PAX Prime attendance: '07, '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13, '14, '15, '16
    adias.angelAercadiaTMIB
  • TMIBTMIB Registered User regular
    TMIB wrote: »
    I'm sorry if you feel the need to direct or end the conversation, but no one is forcing you to participate.

    No what I feel is you are putting a bunch of info here an average PAX goer cares very little about. We care about going to PAX, having fun, playing games and staying safe. You on the other hand are simply trolling to put out your feelings about CC. What people come to this thread to see is about safety concern without having to sift through tons of useless comments about legal/lawfulness of concealed carry.

    Please don't presume to say what I care about. You are assuming an argument I am not making, and trying to put words in my mouth. You say "We care..." as though you speak for the group, and then in the next sentence exclude me, as though I'm not part of that "we". I too care about going to PAX, having fun, playing games and staying safe. I've been going to PAX since '09, and I'm a huge geek too. (I could be specific, but I don't want to get into a battle of who's got more 'geek cred' because that just reinforces the 'fake geek' concept, and is bad for everyone involved). There's a lot of diverse interests and diverse people at PAX (yay!).

    I just dislike it when incorrect information gets quoted as fact, particularly when it's about something I care about. I am sorry if you think that's trolling- The original poster asked a question, was answered, and there was clearly some discrepancy here (note how Khoo's response differs from the @Official_Pax response). I find the minutiae of law (and in particular firearms law) very interesting, and it's something I geek out about. I realize that's not the point of PAX, but this discussion is relevant (though becoming rapidly less so) since it deals with the WSCC and PAX and how it intersects with those topics.
    FWIW, I don't care about the legal side. If someone cares about the legal side they can go research the state laws. What I care about is what PA says is the rules for PAX. This forum is for PAX specifically. You want to talk guns and laws, go find a forum for firearms. If you want I can happily PM you a few links.

    I've got several, thanks. I do care about the legal side, both because it's something I find interesting, but also because it directly relates to PAX and other events at WSCC. If the policy for PAX is no concealed carry, great- then @official_pax and Khoo should probably get on the same page. It doesn't help the situation to make misleading statements as to what is allowed at WSCC. PAX is more than just WSCC, and WSCC is more than PAX. How about the other hotels at PAX? Someone could read the @official_pax response above, and Khoo's statement and interpret that as "it's ok at PAX, just not at the WSCC." (not that I think that's the intent, but you could see how that interpretation could happen.)






  • AercadiaAercadia ArizonaRegistered User regular
    TMIB wrote: »
    what I feel is you are putting a bunch of info here an average PAX goer cares very little about
    Please don't presume to say what I care about.

    You are obviously not being included in the blanket statement of "average PAX goer" in this instance, because you are perpetrating the ongoing spirit-vs-letter internet-argument nonsense-conversation happening here. AA is right. Given the number of views on this thread, and the number of replies (not to mention the number of active participants), the AVERAGE PAX GOER has basically 2% interested in this whole thing - and that interest has basically already been exhausted, with the answer to the original question being answered.

    /thread

    Legacyadias.angel
  • RidleyDragonRidleyDragon Registered User regular
    Let's make one thing totally clear: PAX entry is not a legal right protected by law.

    Your badge can be revoked at any time for any reason deemed prudent by Reed or PAX staff or WSCC staff.

    PW0oFIs.png
    Aercadiavespachica
  • TMIBTMIB Registered User regular
    Let's make one thing totally clear: PAX entry is not a legal right protected by law.

    Your badge can be revoked at any time for any reason deemed prudent by Reed or PAX staff or WSCC staff.

    Yep. That's perfectly clear.

    What's still a bit unclear is what is PAX's official policy on concealed carry by licensed individuals. There is nothing about it in the official policy page here: http://prime.paxsite.com/safety-and-security. What we have is one post from @official_pax that (paraphrased) basically says "we don't like it, but oh well." and one from Khoo, saying "It's not allowed at WSCC" which might mean that PAX's policy is no CC, or it might mean he believes that is WSCC's policy.

    I'm genuinely sorry if the subject offends folks, that's not my intent. And I realize that a lot of PAX folks (perhaps even the majority) don't care. I don't think that is a valid reason for calling me a troll and my points "nonsense" for trying to get at the heart of the matter and understand what the actual policy is, or whether PAX is just deferring to local law. If this otherwise civil discussion is such a burden to folks, I can drop the issue. It seemed to be a relevant topic branch based on the original question and initial responses.

  • AaronCAaronC Enforcer - Lieutenant Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    Guys guys. Take a breath.

    Concealed carry is legal at the WSCC. No firearms are allowed at PAX. If you have a firearm at PAX you will be asked to leave. You haven't committed any crime, you just can't be at PAX with a firearm.

    PAX, as the party renting the space, does have the right to set limits on attendees and this is one they have set.

    That is the official position.

    LegacySuzamaadias.angelPDX Paul
  • TMIBTMIB Registered User regular
    AaronC wrote: »
    Guys guys. Take a breath.

    Concealed carry is legal at the WSCC. No firearms are allowed at PAX. If you have a firearm at PAX you will be asked to leave. You haven't committed any crime, you just can't be at PAX with a firearm.

    PAX, as the party renting the space, does have the right to set limits on attendees and this is one they have set.

    That is the official position.

    Excellent, thanks for the clarification, Aaron. It would be nice if that official position gets added to the safety and security page.

    Legacy
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    Huh. Good point. I would have sworn it was in there, but it is not. The bit on prop weapons doesn't really apply. I didn't notice if it's mentioned anywhere in the registration process, and I also can't find a policy on the WSCC website.

    Personally a tweet/post from Khoo settles it for me, but yes that policy definitely needs to get published in a semi-static location, like the safety/security page. It's not like it's safely assumed/implied; the page specifically calls out illegal drugs, and those actually are, ya know, illegal.

    mcdermott on
    Legacy
  • AaronCAaronC Enforcer - Lieutenant Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    We also say costume weapons can't fire anything, so by that line of thinking nothing that fires anything is allowed, including real guns... but yes it doesn't specifically state that real firearms are not allowed.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    AaronC wrote: »
    We also say costume weapons can't fire anything, so by that line of thinking nothing that fires anything is allowed, including real guns... but yes it doesn't specifically state that real firearms are not allowed.

    Yeah, the weapons check policy starts with "All prop weapons brought to the show..." (emphasis mine) which would not include an actual concealed carry firearm (which is not a prop weapon). And like I said, you can't really go with a "it goes without saying" argument, because apparently a prohibition on bringing actual illegal drugs doesn't go without saying. So reading the S&S summary linked, I have no reason to believe that concealed carry is prohibited, or would get me booted. Additionally, the WSCC website doesn't have anything I can find anywhere on their site suggesting concealed carry is disallowed.

    So at the very least, it seems I'd have no reason to think I can't carry concealed other than perhaps some easily missed signage at the site (assuming that's even present).

    I totally get wanting to restrict concealed carry at the con, it's definitely a reasonable policy, but given that concealed carry seems to be legal there, it's a policy the con should explicitly put out, in writing, to attendees prior to arrival.

    Not to get too D&D on it, but it's probably just a cultural issue. I'd assume a majority of PAX attendees wouldn't even think about carrying, and would assume the weapon check policy implies a ban on it anyway...whereas for somebody who goes through the trouble to actually get a permit and bothers to carry (I've done the former, not the latter) I'm going to assume I'm good to carry anywhere it's legal unless explicitly and officially told otherwise. And while doubtless PAX does goes to every reasonable length to provide a safe environment, a lot of attendees do wind up wandering around downtown at all hours of the night. Which, if you start from the premise that you should ever bother carrying pretty much anywhere (just for sake of argument), I'd say that late at night downtown is probably as justified a situation to carry as any. Seattle is safer than most cities, but it's not like robberies, assaults or even absolutely random hobo-stabbings are unheard of in Seattle.

    So yeah, if I were the type to bother to carry? And given a lack of official notice to the contrary? I'd probably carry to PAX.

    I definitely recommend revising the S&S page, just add something more explicit to the Weapon Check policy.

  • AaronCAaronC Enforcer - Lieutenant Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    edited June 2014
    I get it. That said, no real guns are allowed at PAX. Anyone found with a gun will be asked to leave.

    AaronC on
    adias.angelRussB
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