MOTW 06/11/2014 - I'm tired of waiting for the inevitable

UltimateInferno

New Avengers #19 If I must become this thing, then let it be at a time of my own chasing

Starlight #4 Uh, I don't think I'm the one who's too heavy, sir

A hero remembers.

vagrant_winds

Starlight is so damn good.

Golden Yak

Re. New Avengers #19

The Not-Justice League are going to wind up sacrificing their own world, aren't they?

Because that's the noblest thing their awesome hero-world can do - give up their own world, which had a good run, for the people who still need a chance to turn things around and become awesome.

143999

If that's not how it turns out, then somebody missed the mark.

SatanIsMyMotor

I was kinda thinking that the regular Avengers will show up to stop the Illuminati and instead get pulled into the fight on their side, thus sullying their position and knocking them off their high horse.

Linespider5

I really don't understand this whole 'earth touching earth' thing. I mean sure, planets hitting eachother is bad, but...

Would've sworn there were people who could negotiate the positioning of planets.

Centipede Damascus

The thing about the Incursions is that it isn't just an Earth hitting an Earth. It's the collision of two entire universes. Earth is just the focal point.

143999

Is the idea that in some sense of nth-dimensional multiuniversal "space," the universes in question are moving toward/away from one another, and for this one instance of time that constitutes an incursion, the entirety of the two universes involved in the incursion occupy the same universal "plane"? And because of that, since the universal coordinates of each Earth in the multiverse are being used somehow as a pivot point for these incursions, as long as one of the Earths in an incursion is destroyed, two Earths never exist in the same place at the same time, so the multiverse isn't asked to divide by zero and the two universes in the incursion drift apart unharmed?

Centipede Damascus

I believe that you have the right of it, yes.

cshadow42

I'm guessing the solution is going to be to shift the focal point

Dizzy D

Linespider5 wrote: »

I really don't understand this whole 'earth touching earth' thing. I mean sure, planets hitting eachother is bad, but...

Would've sworn there were people who could negotiate the positioning of planets.

Dr. van Damme will explain:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D01mdGW9-Zg

TexiKen

The rules of the incursion are that either one earth dies and the other lives, along with both universes, or both universes die.

The Great Society is so JLA they even had a clever mother box reference in the issue, but I wonder just how far Hickman will take it. I could see them doing what Golden Yak says but wouldn't that also be meta admitting DC has better heroes than Marvel? I wonder if that might be too on the nose.

I keep thinking it's going to move from pre-DCnU to commentary on current DC, like the incursion changes the JLA into being assholes or something next issue.

Or Dr. Strange kills them all.

nightmarenny

SatanIsMyMotor wrote: »

I was kinda thinking that the regular Avengers will show up to stop the Illuminati and instead get pulled into the fight on their side, thus sullying their position and knocking them off their high horse.

I find it interesting that even the issue where the illuminati question their actions has people arguing that the illuminati are right.

TrueHereticX

So my MOTW is being given a signed by Stan Lee copy of the newest Amazing Spider-man #1 by my brother and his girlfriend.

Greatest. Day. Ever!

Bobby Derie

I'm still upset that this entire retarded Incursion event is stretching out the ideas of a single Warren Ellis comic into a whole series of not terribly great comics. Honestly, we've been through this before...and better. Does anyone really think Hickman is going to deliver a satisfying ending? That is not what he does.

Undead Scottsman

Secret Warriors and his F4/FF runs had satisfying conclusions, so I'm not sure what you're on about.

EDIT: Also, using retarded as a pejorative is a real classy movie, FYI.

Centipede Damascus

I'm struggling to understand how a person does not find the endings of Secret Warriors and F4/FF to be more than satisfying.

Golden Yak

TexiKen wrote: »

The rules of the incursion are that either one earth dies and the other lives, along with both universes, or both universes die.

The Great Society is so JLA they even had a clever mother box reference in the issue, but I wonder just how far Hickman will take it. I could see them doing what Golden Yak says but wouldn't that also be meta admitting DC has better heroes than Marvel? I wonder if that might be too on the nose.

They've sort've done that before, when they had full-on actual Avengers/JL crossovers - not so much 'better heroes', but a world where those types of heroes can actually exist. There's never been 'mutantphobia' mass-fear of superhuman stuff going on in DC world, for example (at least as far as that crossover story was concerned.)

nightmarenny

Bobby Derie wrote: »

I'm still upset that this entire retarded Incursion event is stretching out the ideas of a single Warren Ellis comic into a whole series of not terribly great comics. Honestly, we've been through this before...and better. Does anyone really think Hickman is going to deliver a satisfying ending? That is not what he does.

I've only read his FF run but if you feel that RISE and what followed wasn't satisfying well I guess we are just two different people. But then you are talking about New Avengers like its really bad which makes that clear.

Also odd that you're talking as if your extremely niche feelings on the matter are the norm. I'm not saying your opinions are worth less because they don't match with the majority. I just find it strange you are acting like they are.

EDIT:Just to be clear I know the events I hinted at didn't happen at the end of Hickmans run, I just thought it was the best example of an extremely satisfying end of long running plot threads.

Bullio

I had a different moment from New Avengers 19

Gaslight

Take that, Obama!

Linespider5

Way to be a dick, Namor.

Heatwave

Reed and what's-his-name's faces in the second and third panel are hilarious

durandal4532

I like that the Illuminati are 100% monsters too.

Not like 'a device that destroys one world but [somehow saves everyone on it and takes them into a new universe or something]'

Just 'we're gonna kill all of you! ziiiing'

Golden Yak

durandal4532 wrote: »

I like that the Illuminati are 100% monsters too.

Not like 'a device that destroys one world but [somehow saves everyone on it and takes them into a new universe or something]'

Just 'we're gonna kill all of you! ziiiing'

And that sort've just clicks now. They just realize what they've come to.

JL - So you made a bomb to blow up our planet.
Illu - But we wanna try other stuff first!
JL - And if that stuff doesn't work, you'll blow up our planet. With that bomb you made.
Illu - Well.. yeah, but we're really hoping to find another way!
JL - And if you don't you'll use that bomb you made to blow up our planet. That is a scenario you are prepared for.

At which point everyone's pulling at their collar and looking sheepish.

Undead Scottsman

Golden Yak wrote: »

durandal4532 wrote: »

I like that the Illuminati are 100% monsters too.

Not like 'a device that destroys one world but [somehow saves everyone on it and takes them into a new universe or something]'

Just 'we're gonna kill all of you! ziiiing'

And that sort've just clicks now. They just realize what they've come to.

JL - So you made a bomb to blow up our planet.
Illu - But we wanna try other stuff first!
JL - And if that stuff doesn't work, you'll blow up our planet. With that bomb you made.
Illu - Well.. yeah, but we're really hoping to find another way!
JL - And if you don't you'll use that bomb you made to blow up our planet. That is a scenario you are prepared for.

At which point everyone's pulling at their collar and looking sheepish.

Illuminati should have been "Well, since if we AREN'T prepared for that possibility, we sacrifice not only everyone on our world AND our universe, but in your universe as well; all for a population of people who will die anyway if we choose to do nothing. That said, your world is as deserving of living as ours, so deciding which Earth to blow up will of course be difficult, but if it comes down to it, that is the only choice left; not whether to blow up a world, but which one.

We can't condemn two universes to death so we can maintain our morality right up until everything is destroyed. Hell, at that point, can you even call it moral?

Bring us OPTIONS, not incredulous looks."

Linespider5

Can someone fill me in on whether this dimension merging thing is something new? Is this a natural event that happens once in a great while? Is there some kind of entity or entities that did something that set this into motion? How do the Illuminati know the merging is bad, and that a universe dies, instead of going somewhere else?

I kinda just, wanna know.

TexiKen

For all intensive purposes it's Hickman's plot baby that started with Hickman's New Avengers #1, and was explained in New Avengers #2. Pictures!

Linespider5

It sounds like the only way to fix this is through time travel. Locate the 'wrong' event that killed a universe early, neutralize the trigger, keep it from starting. Otherwise there's no way to prevent this 'Incursion' from continuing to happen as long as there's more than one earth still lying around.

see317

Linespider5 wrote: »

It sounds like the only way to fix this is through time travel. Locate the 'wrong' event that killed a universe early, neutralize the trigger, keep it from starting. Otherwise there's no way to prevent this 'Incursion' from continuing to happen as long as there's more than one earth still lying around.

I don't know, seems like there could lots of ways to fix this (granted, most of them seem to boil down to "The smart guys build a macguffin to fix this").
Though that might depend on your definition of fix. If you define "fix" as "No more incursions forcing us to blow up other planets" then you've got a lot more leeway than you do if your definition requires you to not have blown up the other planets at all.

The main problem with time traveling is that, almost inevitably, it's going to be the time travellers who went back to stop the whole mess that wind up causing the thing by accident.

I'd like to see the illuminati work out how to build a multi-verse hopping, original incursion detecting time machine so they can go back and end this thing before it starts, only to have their future selves pop up in the time machine they're about to build and tell themselves it's a bad idea to stop the multiversal collapse process once it's in motion. Maybe even give them an explanation as to why. Of course, any explanation is going to be a lie and the future illuminati just prevented the present day ones from starting the whole mess in the first place. Then issue wave after wave of No-Prizes to every person who points out the paradox that is created.

And that's why I don't write comic books.

desc

Bee & Puppycat #2 has its titular characters looking for a broken music box to repair. There's three full page panels in a row with QR codes to link you to music as you read:

Centipede Damascus

TexiKen wrote: »

For all intensive purposes it's Hickman's plot baby that started with Hickman's New Avengers #1, and was explained in New Avengers #2. Pictures!

"For all intents and purposes"

Phillishere

see317 wrote: »

Linespider5 wrote: »

It sounds like the only way to fix this is through time travel. Locate the 'wrong' event that killed a universe early, neutralize the trigger, keep it from starting. Otherwise there's no way to prevent this 'Incursion' from continuing to happen as long as there's more than one earth still lying around.

I don't know, seems like there could lots of ways to fix this (granted, most of them seem to boil down to "The smart guys build a macguffin to fix this").
Though that might depend on your definition of fix. If you define "fix" as "No more incursions forcing us to blow up other planets" then you've got a lot more leeway than you do if your definition requires you to not have blown up the other planets at all.

The main problem with time traveling is that, almost inevitably, it's going to be the time travellers who went back to stop the whole mess that wind up causing the thing by accident.

I'd like to see the illuminati work out how to build a multi-verse hopping, original incursion detecting time machine so they can go back and end this thing before it starts, only to have their future selves pop up in the time machine they're about to build and tell themselves it's a bad idea to stop the multiversal collapse process once it's in motion. Maybe even give them an explanation as to why. Of course, any explanation is going to be a lie and the future illuminati just prevented the present day ones from starting the whole mess in the first place. Then issue wave after wave of No-Prizes to every person who points out the paradox that is created.

And that's why I don't write comic books.

There have been hints that time travel is at least part of what started this mess. I'm not sure how much they intend to tie in All New X-Men, but there have been definite hints that the one-two punch of McCoy bringing the X-Men into the present and the time-travel based solution at the end of the Age of Ultron arc somehow fundamentally broke the universe.

Those aren't Hickman stories, but he hasn't been ignoring it. Thanos, for one, directly stated that the end of AoU convinced him that Earth needed to be put down.

WiseManTobes

re: Incursions

Wasn't one also stopped by phasing one planet thru the other, so no 'touch' moment as they passed? I forget if our universe or another did this

UltimateInferno

WiseManTobes wrote: »

re: Incursions

Wasn't one also stopped by phasing one planet thru the other, so no 'touch' moment as they passed? I forget if our universe or another did this

That wasn't an Incursion, but a "rogue" planet that was going to collide with the earth.

Phillishere

WiseManTobes wrote: »

re: Incursions

Wasn't one also stopped by phasing one planet thru the other, so no 'touch' moment as they passed? I forget if our universe or another did this

In the latest New Avengers, the alternate Earth heroes did something similar to stop an incursion with their equivalent of the Infinity Gauntlet. It worked once, but it wasn't a long-term solution.

Spoit

Phillishere wrote: »

WiseManTobes wrote: »

re: Incursions

Wasn't one also stopped by phasing one planet thru the other, so no 'touch' moment as they passed? I forget if our universe or another did this

In the latest New Avengers, the alternate Earth heroes did something similar to stop an incursion with their equivalent of the Infinity Gauntlet. It worked once, but it wasn't a long-term solution.

I thought they did that once too, which was when the gems shattered?

nightmarenny

Spoit wrote: »

Phillishere wrote: »

WiseManTobes wrote: »

re: Incursions

Wasn't one also stopped by phasing one planet thru the other, so no 'touch' moment as they passed? I forget if our universe or another did this

In the latest New Avengers, the alternate Earth heroes did something similar to stop an incursion with their equivalent of the Infinity Gauntlet. It worked once, but it wasn't a long-term solution.

I thought they did that once too, which was when the gems shattered?

They used the gems to push the other earth away instead.

Golden Yak

Undead Scottsman wrote: »

Golden Yak wrote: »

durandal4532 wrote: »

I like that the Illuminati are 100% monsters too.

Not like 'a device that destroys one world but [somehow saves everyone on it and takes them into a new universe or something]'

Just 'we're gonna kill all of you! ziiiing'

And that sort've just clicks now. They just realize what they've come to.

JL - So you made a bomb to blow up our planet.
Illu - But we wanna try other stuff first!
JL - And if that stuff doesn't work, you'll blow up our planet. With that bomb you made.
Illu - Well.. yeah, but we're really hoping to find another way!
JL - And if you don't you'll use that bomb you made to blow up our planet. That is a scenario you are prepared for.

At which point everyone's pulling at their collar and looking sheepish.

Illuminati should have been "Well, since if we AREN'T prepared for that possibility, we sacrifice not only everyone on our world AND our universe, but in your universe as well; all for a population of people who will die anyway if we choose to do nothing. That said, your world is as deserving of living as ours, so deciding which Earth to blow up will of course be difficult, but if it comes down to it, that is the only choice left; not whether to blow up a world, but which one.

We can't condemn two universes to death so we can maintain our morality right up until everything is destroyed. Hell, at that point, can you even call it moral?

Bring us OPTIONS, not incredulous looks."

This is basically the theme of this current arc - Marvelish Realism vs DCish Idealism. In this case, within a universe were the rules are such that DCish Idealism can actually save the day.

Linespider5 wrote: »

It sounds like the only way to fix this is through time travel. Locate the 'wrong' event that killed a universe early, neutralize the trigger, keep it from starting. Otherwise there's no way to prevent this 'Incursion' from continuing to happen as long as there's more than one earth still lying around.

Another possible solution, though arguably more difficult and costly

is to continue the Incursion process until it stabilizes, with every Incursion resulting in only one earth being destroyed to preserve both colliding universes. Eventually things should all settle down, where all the universes that are going to collide have done so and resulted in the destruction of a single Earth. Then the new multiverse with its new ultimate point of death should be stable with no more Incursions happening.

But I'm presuming that more Incursions are happening to Earth-616 because of the destruction of more universes due to other Incursions, and not just continually jostling of universes due to the original start of the whole thing.

TexiKen

Centipede Damascus wrote: »

TexiKen wrote: »

For all intensive purposes it's Hickman's plot baby that started with Hickman's New Avengers #1, and was explained in New Avengers #2. Pictures!

"For all intents and purposes"

Michael Scott disagrees.



Irregardless, Hickman is a tight end of the industry.