The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
Please vote in the Forum Structure Poll. Polling will close at 2PM EST on January 21, 2025.
I don't see how removing last hitting would be bad, waiting until the last second to kill an enemy instead of helping your lil minion friends push is just so counter intuitive to everything I know about video games and I know a lot I'm an expert
turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
Ok, does anyone else remember a game that I think was a MOBA from a few years ago wanting to implement a system where players could register as a couple and they would get a power boost if they each played a character of their respective genders? I remember people getting pissed because it basically put you at a disadvantage if you were single/gay/asexual.
I swear this was a thing I remembered happening, because I remember making a post about how all the female heros were stereotypical hot ladies and the male heros were things like dragons and a wolf man and shit.
I don't see how removing last hitting would be bad, waiting until the last second to kill an enemy instead of helping your lil minion friends push is just so counter intuitive to everything I know about video games and I know a lot I'm an expert
Because having to get the last hit gives you a specific timing window to perform that action is. Because there is a specific timing window that you want to do something in, there is a specific timing window for your opponent trying to prevent you doing that something. And is what the entire early game of DOTA is predicated upon.
last hitting is a dumb shitty mechanic that just feels like it existed in dota 1 because of limitations in the warcraft 3 engine
that said i know why they keep it in, but it just feels like a super arbitrary and unnecessary method of raising the skill ceiling and i do not think it makes the game any more fun at all
Yeah like i get why you wouldn't like last hitting conceptually but it is so insanely integral to the early game, ESPECIALLY mid, that taking it out would fundamentally change the game
The same thing was said about worker splits in Starcraft 2, that every little skill that split the casuals from the pros makes professional games more impressive. That it gives you something to do in the early game before you can start really doing things.
Which are really dumb concepts to people who have not submitted to those arbitrary skills.
Last hitting is just contrary to my favorite leveling system ever, and that is Final Fantasy Tactics, where every hit earns EXP and JP. That way, even if you have a weak thief only hitting for 5HP, that thief can get stronger and learn important thief skills
Counter with something like Disgaea where I go in and none of my weaker classes are leveling up at all. It's just that hero boy doing all the damage and outleveling everyone, and you have to make him do nothing just so other people can get kills
Part of the reason you don't just sit in lane and autoattack is that you don't always want to push your lane. The further from your tower you are, the more risky being close to the creeps fighting becomes. It gives you a longer supply line, further to run back to safety and more directions that enemy heroes can sneak up behind you for a gank.
So often in the early game you want to last hit as much as possible to avoid pushing your lane up and opening yourself up for trouble.
It was very bleak, and a lot more surrealistic than I expected it to be. It did not feel obligated to give you information, ever, and it was great at building a sort of general sense of dread.
I thought Scarlett Johansson did a mostly incredible job as well.
The scenes in the "black rooms" were terrifying and amazing. Watching the main character progress through her (?) arc was really something, considering approximately zero of it is communicated, even obliquely, through dialogue. There was great use of POV shots to illustrate her behaviors changing.
There is a scene in this movie where ScarJo and one of her "handlers" (for lack of a better term) stand in an empty room and stare blankly at each other for several minutes, and there is no dialogue whatsoever, but somehow you have a really exact sense of what is being communicated, just through the stage-movements and body language (which might be a drawback if we're assuming these things shouldn't be exhibiting classically-human body language patterns). I still found it pretty impressive.
The ending was fucked up, and I don't really know what to think about it. It definitely had some degree of payoff although it was incredibly abrupt.
On the negative side the movie has sort of a glacial pace that I could see infuriating a lot of people. I guess I liked it overall, but I find it sort of hard to recommend at the same time.
I don't see how removing last hitting would be bad, waiting until the last second to kill an enemy instead of helping your lil minion friends push is just so counter intuitive to everything I know about video games and I know a lot I'm an expert
Because having to get the last hit gives you a specific timing window to perform that action is. Because there is a specific timing window that you want to do something in, there is a specific timing window for your opponent trying to prevent you doing that something. And is what the entire early game of DOTA is predicated upon.
harassing would still prevent people from helping their minions, i don't think it'd be that radical a change
Yeah like i get why you wouldn't like last hitting conceptually but it is so insanely integral to the early game, ESPECIALLY mid, that taking it out would fundamentally change the game
The same thing was said about worker splits in Starcraft 2, that every little skill that split the casuals from the pros makes professional games more impressive. That it gives you something to do in the early game before you can start really doing things.
Which are really dumb concepts to people who have not submitted to those arbitrary skills.
No, worker splitting is something that optimizes your income, last hitting is literally the primary source of income in most mobas
You had to split your workers by hand because if the other guy did and you didn't then he would be ahead of you but you could still do stuff, if you don't last hit you can do basically nothing
Last hitting is just contrary to my favorite leveling system ever, and that is Final Fantasy Tactics, where every hit earns EXP and JP. That way, even if you have a weak thief only hitting for 5HP, that thief can get stronger and learn important thief skills
Counter with something like Disgaea where I go in and none of my weaker classes are leveling up at all. It's just that hero boy doing all the damage and outleveling everyone, and you have to make him do nothing just so other people can get kills
I mean, different rules for different games.
I love that in Blood Bowl for example, early in a season, you will desperately try to get a ball from your Skinks (which have great handling skills) to a Saurus (that has terrible handling skills) to score a touch down to get exp on your Saurus because Skinks die all the time and therefore it is risky to put EXP on them. I love that doing that might cost you the game in order for a long term plan.
But that is Blood Bowl and it works for Blood Bowl. Doesn't mean it should be in other games.
0
turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
I don't see how removing last hitting would be bad, waiting until the last second to kill an enemy instead of helping your lil minion friends push is just so counter intuitive to everything I know about video games and I know a lot I'm an expert
Because having to get the last hit gives you a specific timing window to perform that action is. Because there is a specific timing window that you want to do something in, there is a specific timing window for your opponent trying to prevent you doing that something. And is what the entire early game of DOTA is predicated upon.
harassing would still prevent people from helping their minions, i don't think it'd be that radical a change
You don't want to help your minions in DOTA. If you didn't need to last hit to get gold people would just stand at max gold getting range and avoid contact in the early game.
I don't see how removing last hitting would be bad, waiting until the last second to kill an enemy instead of helping your lil minion friends push is just so counter intuitive to everything I know about video games and I know a lot I'm an expert
Because having to get the last hit gives you a specific timing window to perform that action is. Because there is a specific timing window that you want to do something in, there is a specific timing window for your opponent trying to prevent you doing that something. And is what the entire early game of DOTA is predicated upon.
harassing would still prevent people from helping their minions, i don't think it'd be that radical a change
You don't want to help your minions in DOTA. If you didn't need to last hit to get gold people would just stand at max gold getting range and avoid contact in the early game.
again, this just seems super counter intuitive to anyone not intimately familiar with dota/moba, and I think it's dumb as hell
in what other game do you not want to help your guys
I don't see how removing last hitting would be bad, waiting until the last second to kill an enemy instead of helping your lil minion friends push is just so counter intuitive to everything I know about video games and I know a lot I'm an expert
Because having to get the last hit gives you a specific timing window to perform that action is. Because there is a specific timing window that you want to do something in, there is a specific timing window for your opponent trying to prevent you doing that something. And is what the entire early game of DOTA is predicated upon.
harassing would still prevent people from helping their minions, i don't think it'd be that radical a change
You don't want to help your minions in DOTA. If you didn't need to last hit to get gold people would just stand at max gold getting range and avoid contact in the early game.
again, this just seems super counter intuitive to anyone not intimately familiar with dota/moba, and I think it's dumb as hell
in what other game do you not want to help your guys
ZAY WAR IS COMPLICATED
SOMETIMES YOU LET A FEW GUYS GET EFFED SO THAT YOU CAN, EVENTUALLY, DESTROY A GIANT ANTHROPOMORPHIC TREE, OK?
I don't see how removing last hitting would be bad, waiting until the last second to kill an enemy instead of helping your lil minion friends push is just so counter intuitive to everything I know about video games and I know a lot I'm an expert
Because having to get the last hit gives you a specific timing window to perform that action is. Because there is a specific timing window that you want to do something in, there is a specific timing window for your opponent trying to prevent you doing that something. And is what the entire early game of DOTA is predicated upon.
harassing would still prevent people from helping their minions, i don't think it'd be that radical a change
You don't want to help your minions in DOTA. If you didn't need to last hit to get gold people would just stand at max gold getting range and avoid contact in the early game.
again, this just seems super counter intuitive to anyone not intimately familiar with dota/moba, and I think it's dumb as hell
in what other game do you not want to help your guys
It is certainly counter intuitive. But your original statement is that last hitting was unnecessary. Which is not true, as without it there is essentially nothing to do for the first 10 minutes or whatever of a DOTA match.
Of course you can think it doesn't sound fun (I don't think laning is fun at all in MOBA games) but that is very different than unnecessary. It is a necessary mechanic to have interaction between the players.
removing last hitting doesn't have to work like that. it could be a system where you get gold based on how much damage you do to the creeps
It is sometimes not tactically advantageous to do a bunch of damage to them, though. This allows a discrete interaction that allows you to farm while giving you greater tactical control over where the battle takes place within the lane, giving you more safety and denying that same safety to your opponents.
The thing you need to solve if you're removing last hitting isn't "how do you get gold into players' hands", it's "how do I incite meaningful exchanges between heroes in lane".
the concept of zoning would work the exact same way it does now. don't want them to farm? force them to fight you instead of the creeps, or prevent them from fighting the creeps.
removing last hitting doesn't have to work like that. it could be a system where you get gold based on how much damage you do to the creeps
It is sometimes not tactically advantageous to do a bunch of damage to them, though. This allows a discrete interaction that allows you to farm while giving you greater tactical control over where the battle takes place within the lane, giving you more safety and denying that same safety to your opponents.
The thing you need to solve if you're removing last hitting isn't "how do you get gold into players' hands", it's "how do I incite meaningful exchanges between heroes in lane".
And there are other methods, certainly. But it would fundamentally change the nature of DOTA that it would become a different game. Which is why calling last hitting unnecessary is silly.
I mean, it's as unnecessary as any game mechanic, technically, because all game mechanics can technically be removed and replaced with something else. I mean, we could take shooting out of counter strike and put something else in instead but you have a different game now.
Denying and Last Hitting might seem counter-intuitive or thematically silly, but they provide a very interesting and unique amount of gameplay interactions that you would deprive the game of if you were to remove them.
not only do you not help your guys you systematically execute them so they can't help the other team
like, really?
I think we can all agree that denying is pretty dumb.
Thematically? Sure.
Mechanically? It is fine.
I don't think it causes any mechanical issues, and it makes sense in-context, I just don't think it's necessary to have interesting lane activity when you're already doing the last-hitting thing (an assertion I think League bears out to an extent).
not only do you not help your guys you systematically execute them so they can't help the other team
like, really?
I think we can all agree that denying is pretty dumb.
Thematically? Sure.
Mechanically? It is fine.
I don't think it causes any mechanical issues, and it makes sense in-context, I just don't think it's necessary to have interesting lane activity when you're already doing the last-hitting thing (an assertion I think League bears out to an extent).
Yeah I would agree that it is not a necessary mechanic, much more of a preference type thing. Some people feel that the early game of LoL is empty/boring compared to DOTA because of the lack of denying.
Yeah like i get why you wouldn't like last hitting conceptually but it is so insanely integral to the early game, ESPECIALLY mid, that taking it out would fundamentally change the game
The same thing was said about worker splits in Starcraft 2, that every little skill that split the casuals from the pros makes professional games more impressive. That it gives you something to do in the early game before you can start really doing things.
Which are really dumb concepts to people who have not submitted to those arbitrary skills.
No, worker splitting is something that optimizes your income, last hitting is literally the primary source of income in most mobas
You had to split your workers by hand because if the other guy did and you didn't then he would be ahead of you but you could still do stuff, if you don't last hit you can do basically nothing
I'm referring more to the concept of "here's an arbitrary mechanic added to make things more difficult for the sake of difficulty"
There's an argument to be made for forcing engagements and giving people things to do in the early game other than farm, but you could just make the leveling curve shallower and achieve the same thing while cutting down unnecessary game time. Because I watch sports for interactions and tactics, not efficient farming in the earlygame.
Posts
You complained anyway. Don't make me cut you.
Halfway through Dan's egg white story I remembered him telling it on a Super Replay
Now you all know it with me
Keep on keeping on.
Steam
Steam | Twitter
I swear this was a thing I remembered happening, because I remember making a post about how all the female heros were stereotypical hot ladies and the male heros were things like dragons and a wolf man and shit.
Because having to get the last hit gives you a specific timing window to perform that action is. Because there is a specific timing window that you want to do something in, there is a specific timing window for your opponent trying to prevent you doing that something. And is what the entire early game of DOTA is predicated upon.
Esports!
The same thing was said about worker splits in Starcraft 2, that every little skill that split the casuals from the pros makes professional games more impressive. That it gives you something to do in the early game before you can start really doing things.
Which are really dumb concepts to people who have not submitted to those arbitrary skills.
Counter with something like Disgaea where I go in and none of my weaker classes are leveling up at all. It's just that hero boy doing all the damage and outleveling everyone, and you have to make him do nothing just so other people can get kills
So often in the early game you want to last hit as much as possible to avoid pushing your lane up and opening yourself up for trouble.
im not seeing the problem
It was very bleak, and a lot more surrealistic than I expected it to be. It did not feel obligated to give you information, ever, and it was great at building a sort of general sense of dread.
I thought Scarlett Johansson did a mostly incredible job as well.
There is a scene in this movie where ScarJo and one of her "handlers" (for lack of a better term) stand in an empty room and stare blankly at each other for several minutes, and there is no dialogue whatsoever, but somehow you have a really exact sense of what is being communicated, just through the stage-movements and body language (which might be a drawback if we're assuming these things shouldn't be exhibiting classically-human body language patterns). I still found it pretty impressive.
The ending was fucked up, and I don't really know what to think about it. It definitely had some degree of payoff although it was incredibly abrupt.
On the negative side the movie has sort of a glacial pace that I could see infuriating a lot of people. I guess I liked it overall, but I find it sort of hard to recommend at the same time.
harassing would still prevent people from helping their minions, i don't think it'd be that radical a change
You had to split your workers by hand because if the other guy did and you didn't then he would be ahead of you but you could still do stuff, if you don't last hit you can do basically nothing
I mean, different rules for different games.
I love that in Blood Bowl for example, early in a season, you will desperately try to get a ball from your Skinks (which have great handling skills) to a Saurus (that has terrible handling skills) to score a touch down to get exp on your Saurus because Skinks die all the time and therefore it is risky to put EXP on them. I love that doing that might cost you the game in order for a long term plan.
But that is Blood Bowl and it works for Blood Bowl. Doesn't mean it should be in other games.
I meant all the female heroes were only "hot" video game ladies. A dragon could be a lady
Unless you're doing a thing, then nevermind.
You don't want to help your minions in DOTA. If you didn't need to last hit to get gold people would just stand at max gold getting range and avoid contact in the early game.
except denyplank
rip
last hitting is dumb and nonsensical
denying is super dumb and even more nonsensical
again, this just seems super counter intuitive to anyone not intimately familiar with dota/moba, and I think it's dumb as hell
in what other game do you not want to help your guys
ZAY WAR IS COMPLICATED
SOMETIMES YOU LET A FEW GUYS GET EFFED SO THAT YOU CAN, EVENTUALLY, DESTROY A GIANT ANTHROPOMORPHIC TREE, OK?
- Sun Tzu
the focus is mostly on not dying and harassing in the early game and it is neat (so is no items and the skills system)
I haven't checked back in on heart of the storm in forever though
like, really?
It is certainly counter intuitive. But your original statement is that last hitting was unnecessary. Which is not true, as without it there is essentially nothing to do for the first 10 minutes or whatever of a DOTA match.
Of course you can think it doesn't sound fun (I don't think laning is fun at all in MOBA games) but that is very different than unnecessary. It is a necessary mechanic to have interaction between the players.
I think we can all agree that denying is pretty dumb.
I think denying is super dope, tbh
Thematically? Sure.
Mechanically? It is fine.
Awww, man
You seemed like such a nice guy in boston
Too bad you are literally a monster
It is sometimes not tactically advantageous to do a bunch of damage to them, though. This allows a discrete interaction that allows you to farm while giving you greater tactical control over where the battle takes place within the lane, giving you more safety and denying that same safety to your opponents.
The thing you need to solve if you're removing last hitting isn't "how do you get gold into players' hands", it's "how do I incite meaningful exchanges between heroes in lane".
And there are other methods, certainly. But it would fundamentally change the nature of DOTA that it would become a different game. Which is why calling last hitting unnecessary is silly.
I mean, it's as unnecessary as any game mechanic, technically, because all game mechanics can technically be removed and replaced with something else. I mean, we could take shooting out of counter strike and put something else in instead but you have a different game now.
I don't think it causes any mechanical issues, and it makes sense in-context, I just don't think it's necessary to have interesting lane activity when you're already doing the last-hitting thing (an assertion I think League bears out to an extent).
NO IT DOESN'T, OLD MAN
HOW ABOUT YOU GET THAT BIG HONKER OUTTA MY FACE
Yeah I would agree that it is not a necessary mechanic, much more of a preference type thing. Some people feel that the early game of LoL is empty/boring compared to DOTA because of the lack of denying.
I'm referring more to the concept of "here's an arbitrary mechanic added to make things more difficult for the sake of difficulty"
There's an argument to be made for forcing engagements and giving people things to do in the early game other than farm, but you could just make the leveling curve shallower and achieve the same thing while cutting down unnecessary game time. Because I watch sports for interactions and tactics, not efficient farming in the earlygame.
Penicillin was an accidental discovery. Doesn't make it any less legitimate as result, though.