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Do-it-yourself Sonic the Hedgehog
TheSonicRetard
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
NOTE: I just got the OK after about 2 days of hardcore discussion with the mods for this topics, but, much like my last topic, discretion is the name of the game. Before we begin with this topic, I'll post my usual ground rules for this topic:
*DON'T ASK TOO MANY QUESTIONS
We're treading a very fine line, and the mods reluctantly gave me a little leeway with the subject matter at hand, so I'm guiding this topic. Don't ask any questions related to roms, emulation or any of that. This is a topic on the inner workings of sonic the hedgehog and nothing else.
*DON'T BE DUMB
Kinda goes in line with the first rule. I'm using my discretion in guiding this topic, so I expect everyone who posts in this topic to do the same. If you know it's against the TOS for this site, don't talk about it. I suggest everyone read the rules if they're unclear about what can be discussed and what can't.
*FEEL FREE TO POST
Much like my (on hiatus) Ecco topic and the previous sonic topic, the format will be an open discussion. I'll post stuff, but in spurts. In the meantime, feel free to converse freely and ask questions.
In addition, I feel that, before I begin this topic, I owe an explanation about the state of the "The Things you didn't know about Ecco the Dolphin" thread. Simply put, I had to deal with some family stuff for about a week, and when I fixed that stuff up, I simply had lost my motivation to keep going. I write in a very finicky style, and unless I'm in the mood to write on a subject, I can't write on it. Prior to the stuff I had to deal with, I was gun-ho about the topic, but after I simply lost interest. I promise to eventually pick it back up, but in the mean time, this topic has been on my mind for a while. So without further delay, I present my second great sonic topic...
DO-IT-YOURSELF SONIC
INTRODUCTION
So, I got a lot of really good feedback on my last sonic topic, and people seemed genuinely interested. After speaking with some people in the sonic community, and having a long talk with the PA mods about if this topic is alright, I've been given the green light to go balls to the wall. Consider the last sonic topic to be the tip of the ice berg - that stuff is what's supposed to be common knowledge in the sonic community. It's beginners stuff. We're gonna go deep, and very in depth into sonic in this topic.
This topic is a very in depth, study into Sonic the Hedgehog, in the highest degree. This topic is basically a summery of the efforts of the sonic hacking community that I belong to, along with a nice little look into current projects that are going on.
I'll begin with a brief history of the scene I'm about to be talking about. I mostly refer to it as "The sonic community" but that label is very misleading. There are actually two sonic communities. The first is more accurately known as Sonic Fans - people who are fanatical about Sonic as a character. These tend to be fans the Archie and Saturday morning cartoons, as well as the furry community. I'll with hold my judgement of this community, but suffice to say I really don't belong to it.
No, the community that I and Blaze belong to is actually a more underground community that is known as the Sonic Hacking community. The extent of the organization within our community is staggering. It's a true hacking scene. The word hacker has a lot of malicious connotations these days, so let me clarify - I mean hacking in the truest sense of the word. Every member of the community is there simply because they have a thirst for knowledge and a passion for what they do. The community specializes in ripping sonic the hedgehog up into microscopic levels and examining every piece of it. We operate in true hacking style - we're fiercely competitive, but at the same time, everything that is found is expected to be fully shared. Thus, discoveries and knowledge grow exponentially.
It might surprise many members of this board to find out that I'm merely an average member in the Sonic Community. I'm officially registered as an oldbie, someone who was around when the community was founded back in 1997-ish. I've contributed, and I know a fair amount more than average, but no where near the top. The top dogs of the community are truly special people, who's efforts are going to be discussed in great detail in this topic.
A brief history of our community. We enjoy membership into the hundreds range, making us a much larger community than, say, the final fantasy hacking community (I see some guys from their community regularly posting updates on their fan engine... great work, by the by) or the mario hacking community, and we're much older. We formed in 1997 as a group devoted to compiling information on flat out strange shit in sonic the hedgehog - magazine scans of levels that don't exist, lost items, etc. Pretty much what I posted in the last topic.
Over the years, however, we changed out focus to hacking sonic games. Examining code, debugging, and way beyond. Today, our community enjoys a vast collection of tallented people. Chris Senn, the man who was in charge of Sonic Xtreme for the Sega Saturn, for example, is one of our most active members, and we have a few other members who work at sega.
It's through the efforts of hundreds of people working for about 10 years that this topic is possible. So enjoy, because you're in for a treat.
SO WHAT IS THIS TOPIC ABOUT SPECIFICALLY?
Not too long ago, the holy grail of the sonic community was achieved. Resident legend DRX managed to disassemble sonic the hedgehog in its entirety. For those who are unfamiliar, a disassembly is essentially the source code. Through years of effort, DRX disassembled sonic and today, thanks to him, we have the full source code in 68K assembly for Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic 3, and Sonic & Knuckles. Of course, that's not to say the source code is useful - it's pretty much useless unless you have real hardware to burn sega genesis carts with, and a 68k sega genesis assembly kit, and on top of that, you need to be proficient in 68k assembly.
I will not provide any of that in this topic. A notice to anyone who has their hopes up, if you're expecting me to post the source code for sonic the hedgehog so you can compile your own game or something, you're going to leave disappointed. That is illegal, and not to mention it's against the TOS. It's all for the best anyways... I'm almost certain everyone in this forum doesn't have the 18 year old equipment necessary to take advantage of this because they probably weren't an official sega genesis developer.
Rather, what I will be doing is taking the sonic source code, routine by routine, and explaining how it works in plain, simple english. That is, I'm going to essentially explain the implementation of sonic the hedgehog on the whole. I remind everyone that this is a highly sensitive topic, and mods are eagle eying this topic, so please use discretion.
SO WHATS THE POINT OF ALL THIS
With all the limitations I just explained about the source code, and how it's mainly useless to everyone, you're probably wondering what's the point of this topic. People on this, and many other forums often complain about the lack of good 2D sonic games today. The Sonic community agrees. With Sonic source code in hand, several talented people have taken up the task of making the next great sonic game themselves. The result of in depth studying of the very information I'm about to talk about has directly lead to the following:
*DON'T ASK TOO MANY QUESTIONS
We're treading a very fine line, and the mods reluctantly gave me a little leeway with the subject matter at hand, so I'm guiding this topic. Don't ask any questions related to roms, emulation or any of that. This is a topic on the inner workings of sonic the hedgehog and nothing else.
*DON'T BE DUMB
Kinda goes in line with the first rule. I'm using my discretion in guiding this topic, so I expect everyone who posts in this topic to do the same. If you know it's against the TOS for this site, don't talk about it. I suggest everyone read the rules if they're unclear about what can be discussed and what can't.
*FEEL FREE TO POST
Much like my (on hiatus) Ecco topic and the previous sonic topic, the format will be an open discussion. I'll post stuff, but in spurts. In the meantime, feel free to converse freely and ask questions.
In addition, I feel that, before I begin this topic, I owe an explanation about the state of the "The Things you didn't know about Ecco the Dolphin" thread. Simply put, I had to deal with some family stuff for about a week, and when I fixed that stuff up, I simply had lost my motivation to keep going. I write in a very finicky style, and unless I'm in the mood to write on a subject, I can't write on it. Prior to the stuff I had to deal with, I was gun-ho about the topic, but after I simply lost interest. I promise to eventually pick it back up, but in the mean time, this topic has been on my mind for a while. So without further delay, I present my second great sonic topic...
DO-IT-YOURSELF SONIC
INTRODUCTION
So, I got a lot of really good feedback on my last sonic topic, and people seemed genuinely interested. After speaking with some people in the sonic community, and having a long talk with the PA mods about if this topic is alright, I've been given the green light to go balls to the wall. Consider the last sonic topic to be the tip of the ice berg - that stuff is what's supposed to be common knowledge in the sonic community. It's beginners stuff. We're gonna go deep, and very in depth into sonic in this topic.
This topic is a very in depth, study into Sonic the Hedgehog, in the highest degree. This topic is basically a summery of the efforts of the sonic hacking community that I belong to, along with a nice little look into current projects that are going on.
I'll begin with a brief history of the scene I'm about to be talking about. I mostly refer to it as "The sonic community" but that label is very misleading. There are actually two sonic communities. The first is more accurately known as Sonic Fans - people who are fanatical about Sonic as a character. These tend to be fans the Archie and Saturday morning cartoons, as well as the furry community. I'll with hold my judgement of this community, but suffice to say I really don't belong to it.
No, the community that I and Blaze belong to is actually a more underground community that is known as the Sonic Hacking community. The extent of the organization within our community is staggering. It's a true hacking scene. The word hacker has a lot of malicious connotations these days, so let me clarify - I mean hacking in the truest sense of the word. Every member of the community is there simply because they have a thirst for knowledge and a passion for what they do. The community specializes in ripping sonic the hedgehog up into microscopic levels and examining every piece of it. We operate in true hacking style - we're fiercely competitive, but at the same time, everything that is found is expected to be fully shared. Thus, discoveries and knowledge grow exponentially.
It might surprise many members of this board to find out that I'm merely an average member in the Sonic Community. I'm officially registered as an oldbie, someone who was around when the community was founded back in 1997-ish. I've contributed, and I know a fair amount more than average, but no where near the top. The top dogs of the community are truly special people, who's efforts are going to be discussed in great detail in this topic.
A brief history of our community. We enjoy membership into the hundreds range, making us a much larger community than, say, the final fantasy hacking community (I see some guys from their community regularly posting updates on their fan engine... great work, by the by) or the mario hacking community, and we're much older. We formed in 1997 as a group devoted to compiling information on flat out strange shit in sonic the hedgehog - magazine scans of levels that don't exist, lost items, etc. Pretty much what I posted in the last topic.
Over the years, however, we changed out focus to hacking sonic games. Examining code, debugging, and way beyond. Today, our community enjoys a vast collection of tallented people. Chris Senn, the man who was in charge of Sonic Xtreme for the Sega Saturn, for example, is one of our most active members, and we have a few other members who work at sega.
It's through the efforts of hundreds of people working for about 10 years that this topic is possible. So enjoy, because you're in for a treat.
SO WHAT IS THIS TOPIC ABOUT SPECIFICALLY?
Not too long ago, the holy grail of the sonic community was achieved. Resident legend DRX managed to disassemble sonic the hedgehog in its entirety. For those who are unfamiliar, a disassembly is essentially the source code. Through years of effort, DRX disassembled sonic and today, thanks to him, we have the full source code in 68K assembly for Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic 3, and Sonic & Knuckles. Of course, that's not to say the source code is useful - it's pretty much useless unless you have real hardware to burn sega genesis carts with, and a 68k sega genesis assembly kit, and on top of that, you need to be proficient in 68k assembly.
I will not provide any of that in this topic. A notice to anyone who has their hopes up, if you're expecting me to post the source code for sonic the hedgehog so you can compile your own game or something, you're going to leave disappointed. That is illegal, and not to mention it's against the TOS. It's all for the best anyways... I'm almost certain everyone in this forum doesn't have the 18 year old equipment necessary to take advantage of this because they probably weren't an official sega genesis developer.
Rather, what I will be doing is taking the sonic source code, routine by routine, and explaining how it works in plain, simple english. That is, I'm going to essentially explain the implementation of sonic the hedgehog on the whole. I remind everyone that this is a highly sensitive topic, and mods are eagle eying this topic, so please use discretion.
SO WHATS THE POINT OF ALL THIS
With all the limitations I just explained about the source code, and how it's mainly useless to everyone, you're probably wondering what's the point of this topic. People on this, and many other forums often complain about the lack of good 2D sonic games today. The Sonic community agrees. With Sonic source code in hand, several talented people have taken up the task of making the next great sonic game themselves. The result of in depth studying of the very information I'm about to talk about has directly lead to the following:
TheSonicRetard on
0
Posts
I really appreciate everything you've given the forum, TSR, and it looks like what we already know is just the tip of the iceberg. Really looking forward to this thread.
Edit: But wow, talk about leaving the thread on a cliffhanger. That was the Half-Life 2 of OPs.
How do I choose?
Scholar and a Gentleman? Critical of bad science and religion? Skeptobot - Is for you!!
Ahahahaha.
The various video game hacking communities have existed for years without any such thing.
You really think they can be stopped? They already skirt the edges of legality.
:^: Good thread TSR, I've wanted to make a thread like this with a broader scope but never felt I had the ability to convince the mods about it.
Example: FuYoSa never got a C&D for Lunar Magic. Not going to say anymore about that though.
I'm talking more about the rather than anything else. I think we all know what's happened to pretty much every project out there trying to use someone elses license.
RETRO SONIC
Author: Taxman
Status: RELEASED
A fully coded fan sonic game written for the Dreamcast. Taxman was one of the first to jump aboard the C++ bandwagon and elevate his game above the normal "click n' create" trash the scene normally sees. Tax is a friend of mine, too, and he is one of the people who has helped me the most in my understanding of sonic the hedgehog.
VIDEO
VIDEO
SONIC METTRIX
Author: Stealth
Status: RELEASED
The first C++ sonic fan game released. Sonic fan games prior to this were normally made in Click n Create, a piss-poor cheap game creation software. This game was fully coded by stealth and plays remarkably similar to the real sonic the hedgehog. Although it's long since been abandoned and it's been eclipsed, it still is a milestone in fan game creation.
PRO SONIC
Author: Saxman
Status: PENDING
Thus far, the ultimate sonic project. Pro Sonic is Sax's masterpiece. It's a fan engine of epic proportions. This is the kind of engine I envision creating. It works almost exactly like the regular sonic engine, but it's way more powerful. Just check out the videos... stunning.
VIDEO
VIDEO
HEDGEHOG ENGINE
Author: Me!
Status: PENDING
My own sonic game. All the information I'm gonna post in this topic is the logic I've been using to make my own sonic game. I hope that one day my game will be up there with Pro Sonic and Retro Sonic.
And there have been countless hacks, fangames, and other little neat things created because of the knowledge that I'm going to talk about in a bit. So simply put, this stuff is important to people who specifically want to know how the game creation process goes.
I'm gonna lead us through this topic sort of like I'm teaching out of a lesson plan. our first step in this process will be an introduction to 68k assembly.
My point still stands.
If Sega hasn't stopped them by this point, there's no way they're going to at all.
I'M A TWITTER SHITTER
You forget the fact that there are some Sega people in this community. They already know about this.
EDIT: Unless, of course, TSR is a fucking liar. Then they could get cease-and-desisted.
Sonic Rush sequel. "Sonic Rush Adventure"
Sega will announce it in a few weeks, most likely.
Pachuka interviewed Yuji Naka back in 2003 or 2004.
Suffice to say the big people at Sonic Team know about this. Especially since we've contacted and interviewed most of them one on one.
Rad.
<3s to TSR.
So many <3s.
I had heard rumblings about this, they registered the trademark didn't they, I guessed it was either a DS sequal or an Adventure sequal with Rush in it.
NOTE: For the purpose of this topic, I will spoiler any long chunks of 68K ASM as I post it. The reason being is that it's flat out ugly to look at.
ASM GUIDE PART ONE
I'll post the rest of the guide in the next post.
Then you make this thread, nay cable, damn you and your awesome. Also if you're bullshiting about Rush 2 I'lll still love you.
Scholar and a Gentleman? Critical of bad science and religion? Skeptobot - Is for you!!
But now I'm confused again. If Sega's announcing it, then it's an official game, in which case it has nothing to do with this topic? And how'd you learn of this, Sega contact?
If it's a Rush sequel I assume it's for DS, but "Adventure" makes me think it might be for consoles. I dunno, it gives me that "Sonic Adventure 3" vibe, maybe a fusion of Rush and Adventure, like how Super Paper Mario is a fusion of different Mario game styles.
I found it here
New old-school Sonic? Colour me hot for this thread.
PSN ID : Xander51 Steam ID : Xander51
TSR, you are a now a legend among the boards.
Also about ^. I think I speak for everyone hear when I say: hellz yes
And that's the basics of 68K ASM. This isn't really all that necessary to understand, and if you don't get it, then don't even worry about it. I'm gonna be posting snippits of the disassembly, but I'll also be explaining their logic in plain english. I included this guide in case people were interested in reading the source a little bit clearer.
So, again, if you didn't get that and it looks like moon language to you, don't stress out over reading it. It's just for augmentation.
Now, one final step before we can go on and talk about sonic's engine's inner working... we need to talk about the environment we're gonna be working with. Specifically, I'm gonna give a brief run down of how the sega genesis works...
I eagerly await your discriptions on the abilties of that console.
Had being the key word.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
Shoot, I'd be down anyway. Is it made by the same team?
I mean, the image resources and everything must be separate somewhat from the code, why don't the Sonic Hackers make a game in the sonic style, using the sonic engine, but not using any Sega IP? Is the community oblivious about the legal ramifications, or are they aware of them, but just unconcerned about them?
Heck, I can answer this. It's the same reason anyone makes a fangame.
It's because they're Sonic fans and want to make a Sonic game. Not just some game that plays like Sonic, but a game with Sonic in it.
Sonic and crew have gone through several design changes since the original game, so it wouldn't be that big of a deal from a gameplay standpoint to have a new fan made Sonic game released with original Sonic character artwork.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
Some people do make their own graphics:
Some even do it the way you're talking about - make a game that plays like sonic, without any reference to sonic. However, most people start their projects with a goal in mind - to make the sonic game THEY want to see made. it's the fan gamers mentality.
Most just don't care that they're using someone else's IP. It's the same reason people spend hours drawing fan art, or writing fan fiction.
Nevertheless, this thread is awesome. The Sonic Retard, I salute you.
Part of me is overjoyed.
The rest of me is wondering how sega's going to ruin this for everyone.
The adventure part of the title sugests more playable characters...
Oh crap they're putting shadow in it.D:
... Or I'm just paranoid.
Enough to buy a DS, anyway.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral