Who was that guy a threat to and was he a big enough threat to justify ending his life before some other less than lethal method could be employed.
The cops could have just sat in the SUV, after all.
Psn:wazukki
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
The entire thing happens in 20 seconds.
There's no time for conference, they're faced with someone clearly mentally unstable, with a knife, approaching them.
Even with the guns up, he could definitely charge and injure or kill one of them with that knife.
I mean, yes, ideally, they would tase him or otherwise convince him to back down peacefully...
But seeing that, especially if I were to put myself in the cops' place ("should I wait for him to get in stabbing range of me?" "should I put back my pistol and get a taser instead? Do I have time to do that? What if he charges me or my partner while I'm switching weapons?"), I don't think there's a good outcome.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
I think the solution is better research into effect tactics. Like maybe one has their gun out the other has a taser? Or one draws the guys attention and backs away while the other gets behind? I dunno enough about physical altercation to comment on it though.
There's no time for conference, they're faced with someone clearly mentally unstable, with a knife, approaching them.
Even with the guns up, he could definitely charge and injure or kill one of them with that knife.
I mean, yes, ideally, they would tase him or otherwise convince him to back down peacefully...
But seeing that, especially if I were to put myself in the cops' place ("should I wait for him to get in stabbing range of me?" "should I put back my pistol and get a taser instead? Do I have time to do that? What if he charges me or my partner while I'm switching weapons?"), I don't think there's a good outcome.
Well, I mean, the conference should be had before they get out of the car.
Like, you should probably approach the situation with a plan other than "alright, let's blast him"
Could have is one of the most empty excuses possible. They're supposedly trained professionals. One person keeps lethal out, other person tries less than lethal.
I think optimally they wouldn't engage. It was pretty clearly a situation where the entire goal was to have a confrontation with police. A reasonable course of action in that situation for anyone who didn't see themselves as the mailed fist of justice is stay in the car, keep it in gear and call for help.
Now, I'm sure these guys had training that told them they needed to engage the armed suspect before someone got hurt, but I'm not sure that training served anyone very well in this circumstance.
I think the solution is better research into effect tactics. Like maybe one has their gun out the other has a taser? Or one draws the guys attention and backs away while the other gets behind? I dunno enough about physical altercation to comment on it though.
Yeah, having one officer bring out non-lethal options while another has lethal would be a possibility.
To the other thing about them bringing out guns immediately; is it possible they got the report that he was already armed? Even if they hadn't, keeping one hand in the pocket is pretty suspicious.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
There's no time for conference, they're faced with someone clearly mentally unstable, with a knife, approaching them.
Even with the guns up, he could definitely charge and injure or kill one of them with that knife.
I mean, yes, ideally, they would tase him or otherwise convince him to back down peacefully...
But seeing that, especially if I were to put myself in the cops' place ("should I wait for him to get in stabbing range of me?" "should I put back my pistol and get a taser instead? Do I have time to do that? What if he charges me or my partner while I'm switching weapons?"), I don't think there's a good outcome.
clearly mentally unstable how?
is there a record or report that's been released with his mental health records or something?
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Could have is one of the most empty excuses possible. They're supposedly trained professionals. One person keeps lethal out, other person tries less than lethal.
No, it absolutely isn't, but I agree that they should have had non-lethal options available.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds.2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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CrayonSleeps in the wrong bed.TejasRegistered Userregular
edited August 2014
Okay, okay guys-there's a policing thread, let's keep this free for the night on updates and discussion on Ferguson.
Edit: I believe that was a St. Louis shooting, and I'm not sure if that falls under this topic, however-if it does, sorry for trying to police this thread!
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
Okay, okay guys-there's a policing thread, let's keep this free for the night on updates and discussion on Ferguson.
Edit: I believe that was a St. Louis shooting, and I'm not sure if that falls under this topic, however-if it does, sorry for trying to police this thread!
at least you didn't show up in riot gear.
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CrayonSleeps in the wrong bed.TejasRegistered Userregular
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
Okay, last thing I'll say before following my own advice and keeping this Ferguson only.
I think you're missing a few steps, namely the big step of one of them getting out of the vehicle and instantly drawing a gun. You're missing like...5 steps before getting to "the man is in the fucking kill zone."
Crayon on
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
Um, try stopping your vehicle further away from suspect next time so you aren't within lethal knife range?
Also something tells me that whoever called the police probably mentioned the dude wasn't right in the head and was probably looking for confrontation. Better judgement on approaching such a situation maybe?
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
is there a record or report that's been released with his mental health records or something?
Aside from approaching a cop with a drawn knife telling them "shoot me!", he was also described beforehand in a distressed state over the loss of a family member.
Could have is one of the most empty excuses possible. They're supposedly trained professionals. One person keeps lethal out, other person tries less than lethal.
No, it absolutely isn't, but I agree that they should have had non-lethal options available.
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
So approach with less than lethal on one cop and lethal on the other if that doesn't work immediately.
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
Is there a reason to believe this man was a threat to the crowd?
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
So approach with less than lethal on one cop and lethal on the other if that doesn't work immediately.
This is some really basic shit here.
You do not engage this sort of situation with secondary force. This sort of threat is confronted and neutralized, one way or another. That is basic shit.
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
So approach with less than lethal on one cop and lethal on the other if that doesn't work immediately.
This is some really basic shit here.
You do not engage this sort of situation with secondary force. This sort of threat is confronted and neutralized, one way or another. That is basic shit.
You do not engage it with just secondary force.
The options here are not either or.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
is there a record or report that's been released with his mental health records or something?
Aside from approaching a cop with a drawn knife telling them "shoot me!", he was also described beforehand in a distressed state over the loss of a family member.
So he was sad and distraught over a dead family member.
That doesn't scream mentally unstable. For all we know he was going to stab himself with the knife before the cops showed up and shot him.
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CrayonSleeps in the wrong bed.TejasRegistered Userregular
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
Is there a reason to believe this man was a threat to the crowd?
Other than, perhaps, he's a crazy dude?
They were expecting Edward Scissorhands when they showed up and used appropriate force for a fictional character?
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
I can agree with your last sentence, at least in part. The man who got shot was looking to provoke the reaction they gave him.
As for the rest, that man was no threat to anyone on that street who wasn't pointing a gun at him. It may have been a corner case, you don't usually expect the guy with the knife to be waiting for the cops to show up with no intention of hurting anyone else, but it should have been pretty clear from a quick survey of the area that this guy was specifically waiting to challenge the police that showed up.
No one else in that video is acting threatened or scared. The man with the knife is clearly focused on the police from the moment they arrive, he's not running and he's not taking hostages, he's staring at them and walking toward them. There are no noncombatants within 40 feet of him.
I'm not necessarily contesting that these guys weren't following their training in directly engaging the subject on foot outside the safety of the vehicle from a range that was deeply unwise using force that wasn't necessary. But if that's the case, their training is deeply flawed.
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
So approach with less than lethal on one cop and lethal on the other if that doesn't work immediately.
This is some really basic shit here.
You do not engage this sort of situation with secondary force. This sort of threat is confronted and neutralized, one way or another. That is basic shit.
You do not engage it with just secondary force.
The options here are not either or.
I know you know your stuff on this sort of thing, which is why I don't understand you taking this stance. Secondary force isn't used in that sort of circumstance because it is not reliable, you don't taser or mace someone in that area because it is not certain to stop or even slow them down. That to say, taser + bullets and he's still shot.
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
So approach with less than lethal on one cop and lethal on the other if that doesn't work immediately.
This is some really basic shit here.
You do not engage this sort of situation with secondary force. This sort of threat is confronted and neutralized, one way or another. That is basic shit.
You do not engage it with just secondary force.
The options here are not either or.
I know you know your stuff on this sort of thing, which is why I don't understand you taking this stance. Secondary force isn't used in that sort of circumstance because it is not reliable, you don't taser or mace someone in that area because it is not certain to stop or even slow them down. That to say, taser + bullets and he's still shot.
Which is why you use the less than lethal first. And if he still keeps moving towards you your buddy shoots.
Again, not hard. They never considered it though. Everyone had their guns out and immediately removed any other options. There was no plan to try and take the person alive.
I really am feeling a little bit better about my smalltown Southern police force. Years ago, I personally witnessed them handle a mentally distressed black man walking downtown in a kimono waving around a katana. They handled this by surrounding the dude with officers while others kept bystanders back, then calmly talked to him until he put down the sword and surrendered.
The officers would have been well within justifiable limits of force to shoot the guy, but they decided to handle it peacefully. That's what's getting lost here. Even when there is a justified reason to shoot, it doesn't mean that there aren't other alternatives. The issue is that, increasingly, police are either not trained or socialized to look for for them.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
There's got to be better ways to deal with this because there are plenty of other nations that don't have shootings being so commonplace as to have people feel fine recording them and not reacting to someone being killed.
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
So approach with less than lethal on one cop and lethal on the other if that doesn't work immediately.
This is some really basic shit here.
You do not engage this sort of situation with secondary force. This sort of threat is confronted and neutralized, one way or another. That is basic shit.
You do not engage it with just secondary force.
The options here are not either or.
I know you know your stuff on this sort of thing, which is why I don't understand you taking this stance. Secondary force isn't used in that sort of circumstance because it is not reliable, you don't taser or mace someone in that area because it is not certain to stop or even slow them down. That to say, taser + bullets and he's still shot.
Which is why you use the less than lethal first. And if he still keeps moving towards you your buddy shoots.
Again, not hard. They never considered it though. Everyone had their guns out and immediately removed any other options. There was no plan to try and take the person alive.
I contest that in this circumstance, if they are in range to use non lethal means than non lethal means should not be used.
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
So approach with less than lethal on one cop and lethal on the other if that doesn't work immediately.
This is some really basic shit here.
You do not engage this sort of situation with secondary force. This sort of threat is confronted and neutralized, one way or another. That is basic shit.
You do not engage it with just secondary force.
The options here are not either or.
I know you know your stuff on this sort of thing, which is why I don't understand you taking this stance. Secondary force isn't used in that sort of circumstance because it is not reliable, you don't taser or mace someone in that area because it is not certain to stop or even slow them down. That to say, taser + bullets and he's still shot.
Which is why you use the less than lethal first. And if he still keeps moving towards you your buddy shoots.
Again, not hard. They never considered it though. Everyone had their guns out and immediately removed any other options. There was no plan to try and take the person alive.
I contest that in this circumstance, if they are in range to use non lethal means than non lethal means should not be used.
Have any of you detailing how the cops overreacted taken any defense classes where they cover how quickly such a distance can be covered? I have, and I'm fairly sure the police have as well. The man is in the fucking kill zone with a drawn lethal weapon. This is not a taser situation. Like, this is absolutely basic self defense. You go not fuck around in that's situation at that range. It's a shame, but the officers rightly protected themselves against someone willfully placing himself in a position to do sudden and lethal damage.
I have.
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
So approach with less than lethal on one cop and lethal on the other if that doesn't work immediately.
This is some really basic shit here.
You do not engage this sort of situation with secondary force. This sort of threat is confronted and neutralized, one way or another. That is basic shit.
You do not engage it with just secondary force.
The options here are not either or.
I know you know your stuff on this sort of thing, which is why I don't understand you taking this stance. Secondary force isn't used in that sort of circumstance because it is not reliable, you don't taser or mace someone in that area because it is not certain to stop or even slow them down. That to say, taser + bullets and he's still shot.
Which is why you use the less than lethal first. And if he still keeps moving towards you your buddy shoots.
Again, not hard. They never considered it though. Everyone had their guns out and immediately removed any other options. There was no plan to try and take the person alive.
I contest that in this circumstance, if they are in range to use non lethal means than non lethal means should not be used.
You contest something horrible.
Their safety and the safety of those they are responsible to protect come first. Every time.
Granted, it's possible that they weren't sure where he was or who the threat was until they were that close, but he didn't define where that vehicle was parked. They may have felt they needed to be closer to properly engage him if he took flight, but they still made the call to get into a range where sudden, violent action might be necessary instead of finding somewhere further back or waiting for backup to hem him in.
Again, not hard. They never considered it though. Everyone had their guns out and immediately removed any other options. There was no plan to try and take the person alive.
That's not true. The plan is obvious; the guy sees he is outgunned, and relinquishes his weapon and submits to arrest. I would honestly expect most people to do that (or if they want to give it a shot, try and run).
Again, not hard. They never considered it though. Everyone had their guns out and immediately removed any other options. There was no plan to try and take the person alive.
That's not true. The plan is obvious; the guy sees he is outgunned, and relinquishes his weapon and submits to arrest. I would honestly expect most people to do that (or if they want to give it a shot, try and run).
You'd think they'd see that too. See it to the point where they don't shoot the man screaming "shoot me!"
Granted, it's possible that they weren't sure where he was or who the threat was until they were that close, but he didn't define where that vehicle was parked. They may have felt they needed to be closer to properly engage him if he took flight, but they still made the call to get into a range where sudden, violent action might be necessary instead of finding somewhere further back or waiting for backup to hem him in.
The victim's hand was also in his pocket when they pulled up. They couldn't necessarily identify what he had in his hand before stepping out of the vehicle, so they may have drawn their firearms, and then not had time to swap them back to tasers, even if they judge the situation that way. Not sure if there was a previous report of the victim being armed or not....
This situation, by the way, is exactly what is meant when people talk about black lives not being valued. Really about any life not being valued, even without speculating as to the impact of race.
Those officers reacted appropriately to the situation they created for themselves. They put themselves in range. They stepped out of the vehicle without a plan to address the threat he presented in any way beyond shooting him. Clearly nobody else felt threatened by this man, as they were literally milling around him seconds before the police arrived.
Posts
Tazer, mace, rubber bullets, etc all would have been perfectly efficient.
The force continuum isn't 0 threat = rubber bullets and tear gas/Any threat at all = unload your clips in to the person.
This was the actual time to use less than lethal and they're too terrified of anything and everything to use it when appropriate.
Who was that guy a threat to and was he a big enough threat to justify ending his life before some other less than lethal method could be employed.
The cops could have just sat in the SUV, after all.
There's no time for conference, they're faced with someone clearly mentally unstable, with a knife, approaching them.
Even with the guns up, he could definitely charge and injure or kill one of them with that knife.
I mean, yes, ideally, they would tase him or otherwise convince him to back down peacefully...
But seeing that, especially if I were to put myself in the cops' place ("should I wait for him to get in stabbing range of me?" "should I put back my pistol and get a taser instead? Do I have time to do that? What if he charges me or my partner while I'm switching weapons?"), I don't think there's a good outcome.
Well, I mean, the conference should be had before they get out of the car.
Like, you should probably approach the situation with a plan other than "alright, let's blast him"
Now, I'm sure these guys had training that told them they needed to engage the armed suspect before someone got hurt, but I'm not sure that training served anyone very well in this circumstance.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
To the other thing about them bringing out guns immediately; is it possible they got the report that he was already armed? Even if they hadn't, keeping one hand in the pocket is pretty suspicious.
clearly mentally unstable how?
is there a record or report that's been released with his mental health records or something?
regarding knife attacks
Again, this guy got exactly what he wanted. Because he bet on the cops going instantly to lethal force and they didn't disappoint.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Edit: I believe that was a St. Louis shooting, and I'm not sure if that falls under this topic, however-if it does, sorry for trying to police this thread!
at least you didn't show up in riot gear.
Okay, last thing I'll say before following my own advice and keeping this Ferguson only.
I think you're missing a few steps, namely the big step of one of them getting out of the vehicle and instantly drawing a gun. You're missing like...5 steps before getting to "the man is in the fucking kill zone."
Um, try stopping your vehicle further away from suspect next time so you aren't within lethal knife range?
Also something tells me that whoever called the police probably mentioned the dude wasn't right in the head and was probably looking for confrontation. Better judgement on approaching such a situation maybe?
When those cops get out of the car with their weapons drawn, the suspect is more than 21 feet away (which is the typically accepted "could kill you with a knife" range), behind a waist high planter, with a telephone pole and vehicle doors between him and the police officers.
They came out with lethal weapons drawn. Then both of them made the decision to clear their cover for no goddamn reason and take several steps toward the man with a knife.
I've seen 7 year old yellow belts exhibit better combat decision making.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Situation not the same in the slightest. They weren't just walking up with weapons holstered unaware of any threat.
Ferguson police are still over reactive failures of police.
They have the safety of the crowd to be concerned with. To the police, the relevant facts should be that there is an armed and possibly deranged man in a public place. They need to engage and remove the threat. If they hang out 40 feet away they're not doing their jobs, considering the open space and possible public threats. I won't argue this was done in the best possible way ever of all time, but the police have clear priorities in these situations and for good reason. They did their job, the man with the knife holds the blame for making the outcome inevitable.
So approach with less than lethal on one cop and lethal on the other if that doesn't work immediately.
This is some really basic shit here.
Is there a reason to believe this man was a threat to the crowd?
Other than, perhaps, he's a crazy dude?
You do not engage this sort of situation with secondary force. This sort of threat is confronted and neutralized, one way or another. That is basic shit.
You do not engage it with just secondary force.
The options here are not either or.
So he was sad and distraught over a dead family member.
That doesn't scream mentally unstable. For all we know he was going to stab himself with the knife before the cops showed up and shot him.
They were expecting Edward Scissorhands when they showed up and used appropriate force for a fictional character?
As for the rest, that man was no threat to anyone on that street who wasn't pointing a gun at him. It may have been a corner case, you don't usually expect the guy with the knife to be waiting for the cops to show up with no intention of hurting anyone else, but it should have been pretty clear from a quick survey of the area that this guy was specifically waiting to challenge the police that showed up.
No one else in that video is acting threatened or scared. The man with the knife is clearly focused on the police from the moment they arrive, he's not running and he's not taking hostages, he's staring at them and walking toward them. There are no noncombatants within 40 feet of him.
I'm not necessarily contesting that these guys weren't following their training in directly engaging the subject on foot outside the safety of the vehicle from a range that was deeply unwise using force that wasn't necessary. But if that's the case, their training is deeply flawed.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I know you know your stuff on this sort of thing, which is why I don't understand you taking this stance. Secondary force isn't used in that sort of circumstance because it is not reliable, you don't taser or mace someone in that area because it is not certain to stop or even slow them down. That to say, taser + bullets and he's still shot.
Which is why you use the less than lethal first. And if he still keeps moving towards you your buddy shoots.
Again, not hard. They never considered it though. Everyone had their guns out and immediately removed any other options. There was no plan to try and take the person alive.
The officers would have been well within justifiable limits of force to shoot the guy, but they decided to handle it peacefully. That's what's getting lost here. Even when there is a justified reason to shoot, it doesn't mean that there aren't other alternatives. The issue is that, increasingly, police are either not trained or socialized to look for for them.
Like come the fuck on.
I contest that in this circumstance, if they are in range to use non lethal means than non lethal means should not be used.
You contest something horrible.
Their safety and the safety of those they are responsible to protect come first. Every time.
Granted, it's possible that they weren't sure where he was or who the threat was until they were that close, but he didn't define where that vehicle was parked. They may have felt they needed to be closer to properly engage him if he took flight, but they still made the call to get into a range where sudden, violent action might be necessary instead of finding somewhere further back or waiting for backup to hem him in.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
fuck.
fuck.
You'd think they'd see that too. See it to the point where they don't shoot the man screaming "shoot me!"
The victim's hand was also in his pocket when they pulled up. They couldn't necessarily identify what he had in his hand before stepping out of the vehicle, so they may have drawn their firearms, and then not had time to swap them back to tasers, even if they judge the situation that way. Not sure if there was a previous report of the victim being armed or not....
Those officers reacted appropriately to the situation they created for themselves. They put themselves in range. They stepped out of the vehicle without a plan to address the threat he presented in any way beyond shooting him. Clearly nobody else felt threatened by this man, as they were literally milling around him seconds before the police arrived.