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It wasn't that you died, it was the WAY that you died

Professor SnugglesworthProfessor Snugglesworth Registered User regular
edited April 2007 in Games and Technology
Last night, I typed up a small entry in another forum about "A Game of Thrones", the first book in the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series (any fans here? I'd love to discuss the series with you).

The following opinion will be purposely kept vague, but I'll spoiler tag it anyway.
I had commented how the sudden death of an important character left a big impact on me for a particular reason. I was warned in advance that just about any character, no matter how important they may appear to the plot, can die at any time. Sure enough, the first notable character dies before the book's end, but it wasn't the fact that he died, but the circumstances that led to his death. While trying to uncover a conspiracy that threatens both his kingdom and his family, he is captured and imprisoned, and then executed publicly in front of his own children. The truth dies with him, and his family continues to battle and suffer, making his sacrifice pointless.

That got me to thinking about character deaths in videogames. Fans look at notable deaths like Aerith and call them tragic, and they are. But in Aerith's case, her death was also integral in saving the world, and she continues to help Cloud and company even in death; you could almost call it a reward (and you'll probably want to avoid reading her short story, which has her chilling out with Zack in the afterlife. No, seriously).

The real tragic deaths are the ones where characters die ignobly, failing to advance the plot or protect the people they gave their lives for. Most RPGs, however, have their doomed characters giving their lives either to protect the other party members, or to take out an unbeatable enemy (or both at once, as is usually the case), or to have them come back as some sort of semi-undead enemy (see Xenosaga). It's hard to think of many situations where important characters die just to show you that mortality is a fickle mistress.

About the only real tragic RPG death I can think of is FFIV's...
Tellah. All the other characters in that game sacrifice themselves to protect Cecil and the others (and then live through their own sacrifice afterwards), but Tellah was the one exception; not only does he stay dead, but he fails in what he set out to do; he fought purely to avenge his dead daughter, and hits Golbez with his strongest magic spell, but Golbez survives the attack, and mocks Tellah for his wasted sacrifice.

As for other genres, the best example I can think of is Resident Evil: Code Veronica.
For a zombie series, it felt like playable characters were impervious to movie-style deaths. Even Ada ended up alive, despite both scenarios having her die in somewhat brutal ways (shot in the heart while falling to her death, or slashed up by the Tyrant; either way, she shouldn't have lived, but it's likely that Wesker injected her with one of his samples).

That changed in Code Veronica. Claire and Steve become seperated halfway through, but Claire manages to find him. Unfortunately, he had already been injected with one of the viruses, having him mutate into a hideous hunchback-like creature. He manages to snap out of it just long enough to protect Claire from a plant creature, but he still had an ugly death (although it's hinted that his DNA samples might serve as a future RE plot point).

So go ahead and share your ideas of tragic deaths. Don't forget the spoilers (I'm still new here, but it seems to me that it's okay to openly talk about games around 1997 or under, but spoiler tag anything above that).

Professor Snugglesworth on
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    FF IV:
    Palom and Porom. Sure, they came back at the end, but when they turned to stone to save me it actually meant something.

    Shadow of the Colossus:
    Again, both came back, but watching Agro fall down that ravine was powerful and controlling Wander after he'd been possessed was difficult for me. I wanted him to live, but I abhorred what he had turned into.

    I'm sure there are more, but those are the first 2 games that spring to mind.

    jclast on
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    Professor SnugglesworthProfessor Snugglesworth Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    jclast wrote: »
    FF IV:
    Palom and Porom. Sure, they came back at the end, but when they turned to stone to save me it actually meant something.

    How is that any different from Yang or Cid? :lol:

    Professor Snugglesworth on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sonic, under water.


    bloop-bloop.

    ding!

    LewieP on
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    ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Eternal Darkness:
    You know who I mean. A whole chapter, then... splat.

    Elendil on
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    Professor SnugglesworthProfessor Snugglesworth Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sonic, under water.


    bloop-bloop.

    ding!

    Actually, I always found Mario 64's drowning animation to be the most brutal. The way Mario coughs up and then limply floats around made my kid sister at the time gasp in horror. ;/

    Professor Snugglesworth on
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    jclast wrote: »
    FF IV:
    Palom and Porom. Sure, they came back at the end, but when they turned to stone to save me it actually meant something.

    How is that any different from Yang or Cid? :lol:

    They struck me as innocent. It's kinda like how when you watch the news and a murder is discussed and you think "Damn, that sucks" but when they talk about the guy that tortures puppies you go "Awwwwwww...poor puppies."

    jclast on
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    KorKor Known to detonate from time to time Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I can't think of one specificially, but I know there was numorous amounts of death in Final Fantasy Tactics.

    Both meaningfull and meaningless.

    Kor on
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    Professor SnugglesworthProfessor Snugglesworth Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    jclast wrote: »
    jclast wrote: »
    FF IV:
    Palom and Porom. Sure, they came back at the end, but when they turned to stone to save me it actually meant something.

    How is that any different from Yang or Cid? :lol:

    They struck me as innocent. It's kinda like how when you watch the news and a murder is discussed and you think "Damn, that sucks" but when they talk about the guy that tortures puppies you go "Awwwwwww...poor puppies."

    Yeah, but like you said, they did it to protect you. It would have been many times more tragic if Leviathan really did snack on poor little Rydia instead of spiriting her away for training.

    Professor Snugglesworth on
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    MetalfootMetalfoot Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I understand the reasoning behind the lack of useless deaths though: Death is never something anybody likes, and if video games are supposed to be an escape, death HAS to mean something. Or else we're just frail humans dragging our virtual corpses along a pointless universe.

    Ok, for me: Resident Evil 4, those two police officers at the beginning without names. Utterly pointless death, you didn't really like them, but they WERE the only other alive males around. Who's going to stand around the campfire and sing with you NOW?

    Metalfoot on
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    TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Best Death ever.
    All your party is down. Just got their asses kicked by the big bad. The main hero stuggles to his feet, sword in hand. He makes a last ditch effort to stike down the boss at the weakpoint, his head.
    only to be disentegrated by a gigantic fuckawesome laser beam, fired by said boss.

    Main character down!! Main character down!!

    Not only was it for me, a wtf plot twist, the way he died was fucking awesome

    Transporter on
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    RustRust __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    Silent Hill 2.
    Angela. Watching her walk up those stairs and disappear into the fire was the game's emotional nadir for me. Watching Maria get impaled again and having to kill a cruel mockery of James's wife was a pick-me-up after Angela's scene. The lady murders her sexually abusive dad and then runs away from home, only to return so she can reunite with her mother who told her that she deserved everything that happened to her; her mental state steadily deteriorates, she almost gets raped again by a Silent Hill facsimile of her father, and then she decides to commit suicide without even finding what she was looking for.

    I think the main thing was that her actions seemed a lot more excusable than James's or Eddie's. Watching her get shafted worse than either of them seriously bummed me out.

    Rust on
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    PataPata Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Best Death ever.
    All your party is down. Just got their asses kicked by the big bad. The main hero stuggles to his feet, sword in hand. He makes a last ditch effort to stike down the boss at the weakpoint, his head.
    only to be disentegrated by a gigantic fuckawesome laser beam, fired by said boss.

    Main character down!! Main character down!!

    Not only was it for me, a wtf plot twist, the way he died was fucking awesome

    ...what game is this?

    Pata on
    SRWWSig.pngEpisode 5: Mecha-World, Mecha-nisim, Mecha-beasts
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I killed E.E. in MGS2 in every way possible. I shot her in the head. I shot her in the box. I cracked her neck. I knocked her to death. I blew her up with a grenade. I blew her up with a rocket. I drugged her and dragged her sleeping body into the water until she drowned.

    Awesome.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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    BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Pata wrote: »
    Best Death ever.
    All your party is down. Just got their asses kicked by the big bad. The main hero stuggles to his feet, sword in hand. He makes a last ditch effort to stike down the boss at the weakpoint, his head.
    only to be disentegrated by a gigantic fuckawesome laser beam, fired by said boss.

    Main character down!! Main character down!!

    Not only was it for me, a wtf plot twist, the way he died was fucking awesome

    ...what game is this?

    Sounds like
    Chrono Trigger
    to me.

    Also, for the purposes of contributing to the thread, Digital Devil Saga 2.
    EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. of your characters is killed in increasingly violent ways.

    My favorites (by which I mean "made me the saddest") were Argilla and Cielo

    Blackjack on
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    PataPata Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Oh.

    Oh.

    Does that count?

    I mean..
    You can bring Crono back.

    Edit: You have no soul Drez.

    Pata on
    SRWWSig.pngEpisode 5: Mecha-World, Mecha-nisim, Mecha-beasts
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I also tried to rape her but she seemed to enjoy it and Snake wouldn't go all the way. Otacon yelled at me to get off her, though.

    Oh I got off all right.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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    KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Putting something in spoiler tags is pretty pointless if you don't say what game it is, Transporter.

    I can't think of any videogame deaths that were nearly as tragic or wasted the ASoIaF one you mentioned. I always roll my eyes when a game character returns from the dead, though.

    God of War spoilers-
    The first God of War is excused, because Kratos climbing out of hell was a cool part of the plot. The second is not. Come on, the protagonist dies in both games, then climbs out of Hades? That's just silly.

    edit- Oh god I can't believe I fucked up the spoiler tags in a post criticizing someone else's use of them. They work differently at Platforumers!

    Kaputa on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Putting something in spoiler tags is pretty pointless if you don't say what game it is, Transporter.

    I can't think of any videogame deaths that were nearly as tragic or wasted the ASoIaF one you mentioned. I always roll my eyes when a game character returns from the dead, though.

    God of War spoilers-
    The first God of War is excused, because Kratos climbing out of hell was a cool part of the plot. The second is not. Come on, the protagonist dies in both games, then climbs out of Hades? That's just silly.

    edit- Oh god I can't believe I fucked up the spoiler tags in a post criticizing someone else's use of them. They work differently at Platforumers!
    You go through Hades in both games. Heh.

    On the subject of God of War, though, all of Greek Mythology is one big soap opera so, really, I can forgive a lot in these games.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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    Professor SnugglesworthProfessor Snugglesworth Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Could someone tell me how to quote multiple entries? Anytime I hit the quote button, it just reloads the reply window instead of stacking them together.
    Rust wrote: »
    Silent Hill 2.
    Angela. Watching her walk up those stairs and disappear into the fire was the game's emotional nadir for me. Watching Maria get impaled again and having to kill a cruel mockery of James's wife was a pick-me-up after Angela's scene. The lady murders her sexually abusive dad and then runs away from home, only to return so she can reunite with her mother who told her that she deserved everything that happened to her; her mental state steadily deteriorates, she almost gets raped again by a Silent Hill facsimile of her father, and then she decides to commit suicide without even finding what she was looking for.

    I think the main thing was that her actions seemed a lot more excusable than James's or Eddie's. Watching her get shafted worse than either of them seriously bummed me out.

    That would actually qualify as a suicide. Still tragic, but it's a bit worse when the character shows signs of wanting to live.
    EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. of your characters is killed in increasingly violent ways.

    My favorites (by which I mean "made me the saddest") were Argilla and Cielo

    The first couple of deaths were sad, but afterwards it just felt like they wanted to kill the characters just for the heck of it.
    Plus they all magically come back, THEN get reincarnated, so that makes their deaths pointless in a whole other way.

    On the subject of MGS, I would have to nominate MGS3's....
    Sokolov. The poor guy clearly went through hell, forced to build a weapon while being mocked by his captors. But once Volgin was done with him, he tortures Sokolov to the point of death, offscreen. What's worse is that the game never officially tells you that he died. They don't even bother to acknowledge his death, like he was just erased from the game altogether. Very brutal, and it makes Volgin even more of an asshole.

    Professor Snugglesworth on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I just open quote in new tabs and copy and paste it all to the original tab.

    LewieP on
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    PataPata Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Umm...
    Sokolov's alive. You meet him in Portable Ops.

    Pata on
    SRWWSig.pngEpisode 5: Mecha-World, Mecha-nisim, Mecha-beasts
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    Professor SnugglesworthProfessor Snugglesworth Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    I just open quote in new tabs and copy and paste it all to the original tab.

    Not that it's a problem, being a Firefox user, but surely there's an easier way?
    Pata wrote: »
    Umm...
    Sokolov's alive. You meet him in Portable Ops.

    ......get the hell out of here.

    Are you serious? What the frick-frack?

    Now I really need to buy that game.

    Professor Snugglesworth on
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    A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    As a huge (but new) George R.R. Martin fan I would agree with you that the deaths aren't just about dying. Any ass can write a plot twist that boils down to "Oo the guy/girl you like....DIES!". It's HOW happens. It's how its crafted. What it makes you feel.

    As far as I can remember, I've never played a game where a death had an emotional hit like that. The only game that really just gave me that "Ouch, damn that hurts" feeling was the ending of Fallout and that wasn't even a death.

    A Dabble Of Thelonius on
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    KorKor Known to detonate from time to time Registered User regular
    edited April 2007

    I don't think I was ever more impacted by a game, than when the baby metroid in Super Metroid dies.


    Screw Final Fantasies, or whatever other JRPG you wanna throw out there. That little baby metroid deserves my tears.


    On a side note, at what point does it become okay to openly talk about spoilers?

    Kor on
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    BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Plus they all magically come back, THEN get reincarnated, so that makes their deaths pointless in a whole other way.
    They don't come back, technically. They're all still dead in the last dungeon, but you're in/on the sun, so it's their data/spirits/souls/ghosts/whichever word you want to use.

    Also, I don't really think that, even if they did come back for reals, their deaths would be "pointless." They all died for something, and they all made the choice to die, so it's not like it wasn't a pivotal point for each character's development.

    Blackjack on
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    Professor SnugglesworthProfessor Snugglesworth Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    As a huge (but new) George R.R. Martin fan I would agree with you that the deaths aren't just about dying. Any ass can write a plot twist that boils down to "Oo the guy/girl you like....DIES!". It's HOW happens. It's how its crafted. What it makes you feel.

    As far as I can remember, I've never played a game where a death had an emotional hit like that. The only game that really just gave me that "Ouch, damn that hurts" feeling was the ending of Fallout and that wasn't even a death.

    Well right now, I worry that any future deaths in the Ice and Fire series will inevitably reach a point where I'll just roll my eyes and go "oh look, he killed another character for no reason. ho hum." The first book's major death does advance the plot, but I would hate to see a cool or beloved character die just for the sake of exploitation.

    I really want to make a thread on the book, by the way. What would be the best subforum for it, Writer's Block?

    /offtopic
    Kor wrote: »

    I don't think I was ever more impacted by a game, than when the baby metroid in Super Metroid dies.


    Screw Final Fantasies, or whatever other JRPG you wanna throw out there. That little baby metroid deserves my tears.


    On a side note, at what point does it become okay to openly talk about spoilers?

    I gave my thoughts on the OP about spoilers. if you insist that I should spoiler tag everything, then I will, but I have seen some clearly-known plot twists thrown around untagged (Aerith).
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Plus they all magically come back, THEN get reincarnated, so that makes their deaths pointless in a whole other way.
    They don't come back, technically. They're all still dead in the last dungeon, but you're in/on the sun, so it's their data/spirits/souls/ghosts/whichever word you want to use.

    Also, I don't really think that, even if they did come back for reals, their deaths would be "pointless." They all died for something, and they all made the choice to die, so it's not like it wasn't a pivotal point for each character's development.
    It's true that they're still technically dead, but it's just that the casual attitude about their circumstance and the way you keep on playing like it never happened made me feel that it was all unnecessary. Had it been a couple of characters who died and never came back (Heat, Argilla), then it would've been a lot better.

    Plus some of the deaths felt a bit written off. Gale basically just stands around and lets himself get impaled, instead of busting out a few moves like the badass I thought he was.

    Professor Snugglesworth on
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    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    MGS. When you-know-who dies.
    "We're not tools of the government. Or anyone else for that matter. Fighting was the only thing I was good at, but at least I always fought for what I believed in. Snake... farewell."

    TheSonicRetard on
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Kor wrote: »

    I don't think I was ever more impacted by a game, than when the baby metroid in Super Metroid dies.


    Screw Final Fantasies, or whatever other JRPG you wanna throw out there. That little baby metroid deserves my tears.


    On a side note, at what point does it become okay to openly talk about spoilers?

    The spoiler tag means nothing if I have to open it to know what game you're talking about.

    jclast on
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    As a huge (but new) George R.R. Martin fan I would agree with you that the deaths aren't just about dying. Any ass can write a plot twist that boils down to "Oo the guy/girl you like....DIES!". It's HOW happens. It's how its crafted. What it makes you feel.

    As far as I can remember, I've never played a game where a death had an emotional hit like that. The only game that really just gave me that "Ouch, damn that hurts" feeling was the ending of Fallout and that wasn't even a death.

    Well right now, I worry that any future deaths in the Ice and Fire series will inevitably reach a point where I'll just roll my eyes and go "oh look, he killed another character for no reason. ho hum." The first book's major death does advance the plot, but I would hate to see a cool or beloved character die just for the sake of exploitation.

    I really want to make a thread on the book, by the way. What would be the best subforum for it, Writer's Block?

    /offtopic

    I'd shoot for D&D. I think Writer's Block is more like an Artist's Corner but for people who draw with words.

    jclast on
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    A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I really want to make a thread on the book, by the way. What would be the best subforum for it, Writer's Block?

    I would assume so.

    Annnd /Edit/ After quick browsing Writers Block I'd say it's a toss up on where it belongs. Go with your gut. Use the Schwartz. Draw straws. Etc etc. /Edit/

    A Dabble Of Thelonius on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    The end of Halo 3 when you di-

    Er, sorry, spoilers.


    Anyway, uh, I'd say Gabriel Knight 1 had some key points:
    1) When you find Mosely in the Gedde family crypt and you think he was killed by the cartel.
    2) When the junkie in the church dies when you get the tattoo from him.
    3) When Wolfgang Ritter willingly sacrifices himself and allows the thing in the voodoo mound to PUNCH A HOLE THROUGH HIS CHEST TO EAT HIS HEART so Gabe can get the talisman.
    4) The end, when you can either kill Malia or try to save her.
    -) Alternately, if you let Doctor John reach you in the cartel at the end (by entering the middle room and just standing around, for instance) he punches a hole through your chest which is rather brutal.

    #3 was especially hard on me.

    Drez on
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    Dee KaeDee Kae Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Buzz Buzz.

    :cry:

    Dee Kae on
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    KorKor Known to detonate from time to time Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    jclast wrote: »
    Kor wrote: »

    I don't think I was ever more impacted by a game, than when the baby metroid in Super Metroid dies.


    Screw Final Fantasies, or whatever other JRPG you wanna throw out there. That little baby metroid deserves my tears.


    On a side note, at what point does it become okay to openly talk about spoilers?

    The spoiler tag means nothing if I have to open it to know what game you're talking about.


    Sorry, I threw that spoiler tag in there in a ninja-edit.

    Its in regards to super metroid.

    Kor on
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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Shadow of the Colossus:
    Pretty much all of the Colossi, especially the early ones. They're just walking around, minding their own business, when this little guy comes out of nowhere and stabs them in the head. And later, when the Colossi start fighting back, you get the impression that fighting them REALLY isn't good for your health.

    The game did a great job of making you feel guilty about killing things.

    Oh, and OP, I'm running through "A Song of Ice and Fire" too; I'm on the last chapters of the third book. The author's tendency to put people in horrible situations, especially when they try to do what they think is right? Yeah, it only gets worse. Much worse. And it happens to everyone. Right now I'm feeling for a character that I never thought I'd truly feel for in the first book. Several of them, come to think of it.

    I'm loving it.

    cloudeagle on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Another game...

    Phantasmagoria:
    Killing your insane husband by splitting his head in two with a pendulum blade, while crying.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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    JebralJebral The guy nobody pays attention to Down South in the land of free thinkingRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    LewieP wrote: »
    I just open quote in new tabs and copy and paste it all to the original tab.

    Not that it's a problem, being a Firefox user, but surely there's an easier way?
    Pata wrote: »
    Umm...
    Sokolov's alive. You meet him in Portable Ops.

    ......get the hell out of here.

    Are you serious? What the frick-frack?

    Now I really need to buy that game.
    I thought he was just there as an easter egg? I mean, can't you get Eva as well? Anyway... I don't think you're going to live if Volgin doesn't want you to.

    Jebral on
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    PunkBoyPunkBoy Thank you! And thank you again! Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    FFTA:
    I didn't know story characters could perma-die. When I was fighting in one of the Yagds, Montblanc went down, but I figured, he'd just pop back up at the end of the battle. But then I get his last words, and I was shocked. I restarted that fight...

    PunkBoy on
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    EinhanderEinhander __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    The only game that really just gave me that "Ouch, damn that hurts" feeling was the ending of Fallout and that wasn't even a death.

    It was the most fucked up thing that could have happened to your character, though. That kind of
    abandonment from the very people you fought so hard to save
    was probably worse than death.

    If I hadn't already
    killed all of the Super-Mutants I would have strolled right in there and told them where Vault 13 was just so they would go and fuck it up. Kick me out? Fuck that noise.

    Einhander on
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    A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Agreed. That's the game moment I use as a benchmark of sorts for emotional involvement in a game, and nothing else really meets up to it. That I've played. Might I hasten to add.

    Also, the music for that was perfect.

    A Dabble Of Thelonius on
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    Professor SnugglesworthProfessor Snugglesworth Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Shadow of the Colossus:
    Pretty much all of the Colossi, especially the early ones. They're just walking around, minding their own business, when this little guy comes out of nowhere and stabs them in the head. And later, when the Colossi start fighting back, you get the impression that fighting them REALLY isn't good for your health.

    The game did a great job of making you feel guilty about killing things.

    Oh, and OP, I'm running through "A Song of Ice and Fire" too; I'm on the last chapters of the third book. The author's tendency to put people in horrible situations, especially when they try to do what they think is right? Yeah, it only gets worse. Much worse. And it happens to everyone. Right now I'm feeling for a character that I never thought I'd truly feel for in the first book. Several of them, come to think of it.

    I'm loving it.

    I made the thread in Writer's Block. Come on over :)

    Also, now that you mention it....
    When it comes down to it, you're technically the bad guy, since the Colossi were created to seal away the dark force you were working for. It didn't look like any of them were inherently evil, they were just minding their own business like normal animals. And you were the hunter.
    PunkBoy wrote: »
    FFTA:
    I didn't know story characters could perma-die. When I was fighting in one of the Yagds, Montblanc went down, but I figured, he'd just pop back up at the end of the battle. But then I get his last words, and I was shocked. I restarted that fight...


    Holy shit. I had no idea.

    But how does this affect the ending? You can have other story characters join you too, right (after mutiple playthroughs)? What the heck happens if you permakill all of them?

    Professor Snugglesworth on
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