Breaker Boxes and Breaker Types

MyiagrosMyiagros Registered User regular
I'm hoping someone knows enough about breaker boxes that you can help me out a bit.

I received a breaker box, maybe 25 years old, from my uncle but he disassembled everything before giving it to me and it looks like some parts are missing so it's near impossible to reassemble it and keep it up to code to pass the inspection. I was hoping to use the breakers still as there are 8 double breakers and about 20 single breakers which is more than enough to run everything in my house(I currently have 2 doubles and maybe 10 singles).

The problem I'm running into is the compatibility between breaker types. These ones are Commander BQL screw on type which appear to be compatible with QBH. Looking at local store stock though they list neither type. I would really like to avoid wasting all the breakers as there is probably $300 worth but I can't seem to find anything new that will fit them. If anyone has any ideas it would be very helpful before I go into Home Depot and start asking the "experts".

iRevert wrote: »
Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
Steam: MyiagrosX27

Posts

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    You know how we say "talk to a lawyer" or "talk to a doctor"?

    You need to talk to a licensed electrician. Screwing this up could potentially kill you and your family by setting your house on fire.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    MrVyngaardDaenrisUsagichrishallett83NightDragonAl_watSkeithzagdrobNocrenschussbowenJulius
  • AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    You know how we say "talk to a lawyer" or "talk to a doctor"?

    You need to talk to a licensed electrician. Screwing this up could potentially kill you and your family by setting your house on fire.

    Also what is even the end goal here?

    Are you going to be adding dozens circuits to your house? Individual breakers are so cheap that unless you're using all of these old breakers it hardly seems worth the savings.

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
    MrVyngaardAngelHedgiechrishallett83Al_watUsagizagdrobNocrenbowen
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    yeah my advice is dont fuck around

    the idea of utilizing an "old used breaker box" or any of its old, used components just raises all sorts of alarms in my head

    take this from someone who as part of their job operates breakers over 4000v with megawatt loads

    don't fuck around with that shit

    Julius
  • ScarlettScarlett Registered User new member
    I work in a cubicle, and I'd like to cover my desktop with something less soulless. I Googled things like "contact paper" "how to remove contact paper" "easily removable contact paper" etc. It seems like there are at least two kinds of contact paper - one kind that needs heat and solvents to remove, and one kind that peels off easily (or at least claims to), with no keywords that distinguish between the two. I also get the impression that people use the terms "contact paper" "shelf liner" and "vinyl decals" interchangeably. I'm looking for something that's easily removable after months or years, won't leave residue, and is inexpensive. I'm not sure if that combination actually exists, mind you :)

    DARLA
    Maguano
  • MyiagrosMyiagros Registered User regular
    My current box is completely full and the plan is to replace that one and put the old one in the barn. Trying to run a 220v welder through the dryer plug is getting quite annoying due to heat issues so basically the goal is: more power for the barn(currently has just a single breaker) and more 220 for the house so I can run a permanent welder line.

    iRevert wrote: »
    Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
    Steam: MyiagrosX27
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    You know how we say "talk to a lawyer" or "talk to a doctor"?

    You need to talk to a licensed electrician. Screwing this up could potentially kill you and your family by setting your house on fire.

    This is not an exaggeration. When I was a kid, my family bought a house and the breaker box was screwed up. It caught on fire and the only thing that saved the house and my father's life was that the box was too hot to open, so he just killed the main power and waited. The electrician we got in the next day said that if he had gotten the box open, the entire thing would have exploded because of the added oxygen.

    Seriously, don't screw around with it. If you really want to use it, get someone licensed to look it over, but I personally would recommend spending the $150 to $200 on a new one.

    PSN|AspectVoid
  • KakodaimonosKakodaimonos Registered User regular
    Those breakers are trash. Panels and breakers usually only last 20-25 years or so. You could try using them, but they may pop under a reduced load or not pop at all. What's the brand of the panel & breakers. Some of the old equipment is no longer available because it didn't work or had issues with failing. The old Zinsco/Sylvania breakers were pretty bad for allowing overdraw.

    Julius
  • SloSlo Registered User regular
    Yea, breakers aren't really meant to be re-used, especially 20 year old ones. But it seems like what you're looking for is to increase your breaker space, what you have to understand is that you might not have a large enough feeder wire to throw a sub panel on.

    Anyways, a cutler hammer bolt on panel should fit that sucker, but bring a breaker in with you to check. (Using old breakers is pretty scary man, when they don't work, you won't know until something is melted)

  • MyiagrosMyiagros Registered User regular
    I'll be picking up a brand new box and getting it hooked up where the current box is, not as a sub-panel. I was mainly looking for advice on the breakers and if they could be salvaged, guess I'll just pick up a panel that comes with enough breakers so I'm not spending another $100-200 to get enough breakers for everything.

    iRevert wrote: »
    Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
    Steam: MyiagrosX27
  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Just be careful, you've done so much work on that property over the years that I'd hate to see you lose it, and really hate it if you got injured in the process. Electricity is one of the few things that will take the entire house with it if done improperly.

    Good luck, and may the (electromagnetic) force be with you.

    Veevee on
    chrishallett83
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Myiagros wrote: »
    I'll be picking up a brand new box and getting it hooked up where the current box is, not as a sub-panel. I was mainly looking for advice on the breakers and if they could be salvaged, guess I'll just pick up a panel that comes with enough breakers so I'm not spending another $100-200 to get enough breakers for everything.

    This is very much a "penny wise, pound foolish" situation. I get that you want to save money, but with electricity (especially electricity in large quantities), the potential risks aren't worth it. Honestly, I would just get a licensed electrician to put in the new panel (especially if codes will require a sign-off on the install.)

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    Julius
  • KakodaimonosKakodaimonos Registered User regular
    Is the barn on a different line? Or are you drawing from the house line? You may want to find out if you've got 100 amp or 200 amp service if it's the latter. You don't want to be trying to pull more wattage from the line than you have available.

  • MyiagrosMyiagros Registered User regular
    Barn is being run from the house, it is currently set up that way to. Single line is run from a 20A breaker to an old fuse style breaker in the barn. I'll be moving it to a 2 pole 50A breaker once the new panel is in. We already buried the new 4GA wire for it which is well above what is required.

    Is the 100 or 200 service just based off the breaker panel? I expect that any house could use either?

    iRevert wrote: »
    Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
    Steam: MyiagrosX27
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Myiagros wrote: »
    Barn is being run from the house, it is currently set up that way to. Single line is run from a 20A breaker to an old fuse style breaker in the barn. I'll be moving it to a 2 pole 50A breaker once the new panel is in. We already buried the new 4GA wire for it which is well above what is required.

    Is the 100 or 200 service just based off the breaker panel? I expect that any house could use either?

    The service is based on the meter.

    If you don't know, the service you have is usually based on the size and age of your home. If it's over 30-40 years old, you probably have 60A service. If your home is less than 30 years old, it's probably got 100A service unless it's large (2500 square foot plus) then it might have 150. Exceptions would be if you have electric heat or something, then you might have 200A service...if you're all gas (dryer, hot water, stove, etc) you might be on the low end.

    Best bet is look closely at your power bill. Realistically, if you have to ask these questions I can't stress enough that you should REALLY call an electrician.

    AngelHedgie
  • SoggybiscuitSoggybiscuit At the edge of spacetime lies a path with no end.Registered User regular
    Myiagros wrote: »
    Barn is being run from the house, it is currently set up that way to. Single line is run from a 20A breaker to an old fuse style breaker in the barn. I'll be moving it to a 2 pole 50A breaker once the new panel is in. We already buried the new 4GA wire for it which is well above what is required.

    Is the 100 or 200 service just based off the breaker panel? I expect that any house could use either?

    Did you just direct bury the wire?

    Steam - Synthetic Violence | XBOX Live - Cannonfuse | PSN - CastleBravo | Twitch - SoggybiscuitPA
  • SloSlo Registered User regular
    Myiagros wrote: »
    Barn is being run from the house, it is currently set up that way to. Single line is run from a 20A breaker to an old fuse style breaker in the barn. I'll be moving it to a 2 pole 50A breaker once the new panel is in. We already buried the new 4GA wire for it which is well above what is required.

    Is the 100 or 200 service just based off the breaker panel? I expect that any house could use either?

    Electricity is scary, and catastrophes are easy to achieve.

    Anyways, so you've added a possible 30 amp difference to your main house panel. Copper wire heats up when it gets too much amperage. Breakers are meant to stop this, along with any rapid spikes in amperage. I'm only really worried about if your 'new' panel is something like a 200A panel, and your old one was 100A. The wire originally ran would be sized for the 100A panel, and now you'd be theoretically doubling the amount of horses on that road. I mean, I doubt it, but again, Electricity! Hell, I just had a 20A breaker explode in my face today, and that burned clear through the copper.

    Anyways, Post pics or read off the nameplate info on the panels involved with ratings, and I can give you better advice about the panelboards. Using old breakers though? I'd test them first with shorting them out to see if they trip. (Please don't do that)

  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Also, code changed recently to require Arc-Fault breakers in living spaces, so you probably can't use them even if you want to. Most of a new boxes cost is the labor, so you wouldn't be saving much.

  • MyiagrosMyiagros Registered User regular
    Myiagros wrote: »
    Barn is being run from the house, it is currently set up that way to. Single line is run from a 20A breaker to an old fuse style breaker in the barn. I'll be moving it to a 2 pole 50A breaker once the new panel is in. We already buried the new 4GA wire for it which is well above what is required.

    Is the 100 or 200 service just based off the breaker panel? I expect that any house could use either?

    Did you just direct bury the wire?

    The line is buried 4 feet down with the water line we ran at the same time. The line was the plastic coated stuff, was like $450 for 180 feet, and it came directly from an electrical contractor so we know it is the right stuff.
    Slo wrote: »
    Anyways, Post pics or read off the nameplate info on the panels involved with ratings, and I can give you better advice about the panelboards. Using old breakers though? I'd test them first with shorting them out to see if they trip. (Please don't do that)

    The currently installed panel doesn't have any markings on it, neither does the new one. I'd have to check what is written on the current breakers but they are screw down ones, it's a small panel, maybe 1 1/2 feet tall at most. The one I got is twice the size, also no markings on it(it's missing the front cover). Only thing I know about it is the breakers which list the Commander name with BQL breaker type.

    I'll take a look tonight to see if the service amps is listed anywhere on my breaker panel, or on my meter, if not I'll just call up Hydro to see what they say. We definitely do not have 60A as we run our Stove, washer/dryer, hot water heater as well as everything else in the house at the same time without any breakers going off. The only problem I do have is running the welder and it's because I pigtail it off the dryer outlet which has a smaller gauge wire on it.

    iRevert wrote: »
    Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
    Steam: MyiagrosX27
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Myiagros wrote: »
    Barn is being run from the house, it is currently set up that way to. Single line is run from a 20A breaker to an old fuse style breaker in the barn. I'll be moving it to a 2 pole 50A breaker once the new panel is in. We already buried the new 4GA wire for it which is well above what is required.

    Is the 100 or 200 service just based off the breaker panel? I expect that any house could use either?

    The service is based on the meter.

    If you don't know, the service you have is usually based on the size and age of your home. If it's over 30-40 years old, you probably have 60A service. If your home is less than 30 years old, it's probably got 100A service unless it's large (2500 square foot plus) then it might have 150. Exceptions would be if you have electric heat or something, then you might have 200A service...if you're all gas (dryer, hot water, stove, etc) you might be on the low end.

    Best bet is look closely at your power bill. Realistically, if you have to ask these questions I can't stress enough that you should REALLY call an electrician.

    It's supposed to be labeled at the main service on the panel. Usually there's a switch at the top, by itself, will say something like "100A" on it, sometimes on the breaker itself, or, usually on the lever. But some electricians should be shot, and do it wrong, and it's not at the top by itself but let's hope it is.

    I'm betting, since this has a barn, that it probably is 60A and they probably use propane/oil for heating and cooking.

    Electricity is a funny thing. You can do it yourself, it's not difficult, but it's really not worth it most of the time. Running wire? Absolutely do that yourself and save yourself some dollars and the electrician time. Hopefully you consulted with one before you actually ran it and did it right, like in a conduit rated for underground runs.

    I would say though, this is not overly difficult to do, but, if you are going to do it by yourself, follow the "you are going to die" type stuff and use all the safety equipment you can use. Special screwdrivers, gloves, insulated boots. You name it, you should get it. Once you're done, pay an electrician to come in and inspect your work before you power that shit on.

    Also, you did pull permits if your locale expects you too, right? New and replacement runs like this often require whole new permits. But, again, the fact that there's a barn makes me think that you're in a rural area that doesn't give a shit.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • MyiagrosMyiagros Registered User regular
    Permits - haven't gone for them yet but when I did my house renovations 3 years ago I went to the township and asked about them, guy never called me back so we didn't bother.

    The barn is completely unheated, the only power it gets is through the old power line run to it from the breaker in the house, it has a 20A fuse style single breaker which can't run much besides lights and the small freezer. The house is oil/wood heated but the water is on electric.

    iRevert wrote: »
    Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
    Steam: MyiagrosX27
  • mtsmts Dr. Robot King Registered User regular
    i would personally think about setting it up as a subpanel. it makes working on stuff a lot easier since you can kill power to that separate from the main power.

    you will definitely need a new permit for this. we are replacing ours subpanel (since its an old federal pacific one) and upping our service from 90 to 200 and we needed a permit.

    camo_sig.png
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    mts wrote: »
    i would personally think about setting it up as a subpanel. it makes working on stuff a lot easier since you can kill power to that separate from the main power.

    you will definitely need a new permit for this. we are replacing ours subpanel (since its an old federal pacific one) and upping our service from 90 to 200 and we needed a permit.

    Yeah I'd install a 60A subpanel myself. That should give you enough for lights, some tools, a fridge, probably even a few space heaters.

    That'd be 6/3 though, 4/3 is going to probably be too low of a gauge.

    I'd guess the house is probably 60A judging by what you're saying @Myiagros‌ , so you'll probably need to upgrade to 120A at the least. I'd shoot for 200A, that's what most modern houses are one. This way if you ever decide to pop in central air, you'll be good. It'll probably cost a few grand to upgrade your service. You'll need an electrican for that though.

    If you run any more than 20 amps out to the barn without upgrading your server, you're probably going to be fucked, so, I'd go check to see what your service is first, but I'm betting dollars to donuts it's at most 60 amps. (look at the top most switch and see if it's got a number labeled on it).

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Although for the distance, 4/3 is probably fine, now that I think about it, since it's a barn not a garage.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Scarlett wrote: »
    I work in a cubicle, and I'd like to cover my desktop with something less soulless. I Googled things like "contact paper" "how to remove contact paper" "easily removable contact paper" etc. It seems like there are at least two kinds of contact paper - one kind that needs heat and solvents to remove, and one kind that peels off easily (or at least claims to), with no keywords that distinguish between the two. I also get the impression that people use the terms "contact paper" "shelf liner" and "vinyl decals" interchangeably. I'm looking for something that's easily removable after months or years, won't leave residue, and is inexpensive. I'm not sure if that combination actually exists, mind you :)

    Vinyl wrap for cars should behave like that.

  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    edited September 2014
    you might want to check building codes in your area

    you put a shitty old box on your house, your ass will get nailed to a wall if you try to sell it and its not to code

    a new box done by a licensed tech should only be about $1k. a small price to pay for something that if done wrong will be extremely unpleasant

    Jasconius on
    schuss
  • MyiagrosMyiagros Registered User regular
    I'm on hold with Hydro right now to find out what service is run to the house from the road. From what I'm reading online though, most underground runs are done 200A and then the electrician just pulls 100A from the meter to install in the panel. If this is the case and my panel is 60A I could then upgrade to 100A and it wouldn't cost extra, or 200A and I'd pay the electrician to replace the line coming from the meter.

    iRevert wrote: »
    Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
    Steam: MyiagrosX27
  • MyiagrosMyiagros Registered User regular
    New info so far - I have single phase service but Hydro didn't know what amp it was, they had to send the call to their field office so I should know sometime today.

    iRevert wrote: »
    Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
    Steam: MyiagrosX27
  • mtsmts Dr. Robot King Registered User regular
    in terms of cost, upgrading panels and service will cost about 2K at least we are paying 2K for ours but our electrician is friends of the family.

    for the record here is what we are doing

    replacing a subpanel, possibly upgrading main panel, going form 2 meters to one and upgrading from a 60/30 service to a 200A service

    camo_sig.png
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Myiagros wrote: »
    New info so far - I have single phase service but Hydro didn't know what amp it was, they had to send the call to their field office so I should know sometime today.

    It depends on where you are, this may not be the case either. If it was done a long time ago they probably only pulled what was being used in the house (60-100A is probably right).

    You can definitely tell what your panel has by checking the mains breaker on the panel.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • MyiagrosMyiagros Registered User regular
    Having a site check done next Tuesday since they don't have the amp service on file. They will be letting me know the current amp and if it isn't 200 then they are providing all the info for upgrading including cost. If it turns out that I only have 100A then I'll go ahead with a new main and subpanel(for barn) and hold off on the 200 upgrade until I really need it for stuff like central air or a hot tub, etc. I'll just have to monitor what is in use and make sure not to be using the oven while doing laundry and welding. The only real problem would be if I only have a 60A service from hydro which I hope isn't the case.

    iRevert wrote: »
    Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
    Steam: MyiagrosX27
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Myiagros wrote: »
    Myiagros wrote: »
    Barn is being run from the house, it is currently set up that way to. Single line is run from a 20A breaker to an old fuse style breaker in the barn. I'll be moving it to a 2 pole 50A breaker once the new panel is in. We already buried the new 4GA wire for it which is well above what is required.

    Is the 100 or 200 service just based off the breaker panel? I expect that any house could use either?

    Did you just direct bury the wire?

    The line is buried 4 feet down with the water line we ran at the same time. The line was the plastic coated stuff, was like $450 for 180 feet, and it came directly from an electrical contractor so we know it is the right stuff.

    You're probably fine if you did your research first and buried below the frost line (your local code should have requirements on how it should be buried). Just keep in mind that being plastic coated doesn't necessarily mean wire is rated for direct bury.

    Personally, if I were going to trench anyway I'd run conduit - running conduit and line that's not rated for direct bury is usually about the same price or even cheaper than direct bury line. Not to mention it may save you having to dig your yard up again somewhere down the line (Pro-tip: Leave a draw wire in it). Since it's already down though, you'll probably be fine.
    Slo wrote: »
    Anyways, Post pics or read off the nameplate info on the panels involved with ratings, and I can give you better advice about the panelboards. Using old breakers though? I'd test them first with shorting them out to see if they trip. (Please don't do that)

    The currently installed panel doesn't have any markings on it, neither does the new one. I'd have to check what is written on the current breakers but they are screw down ones, it's a small panel, maybe 1 1/2 feet tall at most. The one I got is twice the size, also no markings on it(it's missing the front cover). Only thing I know about it is the breakers which list the Commander name with BQL breaker type.

    I'll take a look tonight to see if the service amps is listed anywhere on my breaker panel, or on my meter, if not I'll just call up Hydro to see what they say. We definitely do not have 60A as we run our Stove, washer/dryer, hot water heater as well as everything else in the house at the same time without any breakers going off. The only problem I do have is running the welder and it's because I pigtail it off the dryer outlet which has a smaller gauge wire on it.

    Ok. Unless you can find a label / marking with ratings on it, you need to toss this old panel box and go spend $100-200 to buy a new box and breakers. Size is not rating, and the panel box is a minor cost compared to having it installed. Besides, if you're going to hire an electrician and they are going to install some old box without ratings, go hire another one because you DON'T want that guy working on your house.

    Keep in mind that a welder alone will draw a constant 20-30 amps.

    Just do it right - hire an electrician, upgrade to 200A service, install a new panel box and subpanel for your welder / barn. The peace of mind is well worth it, and if you ever decide to sell or get hit with a code violation you'll really regret trying to cheap out. You don't screw around with electricity - especially mains.

    EDIT - this is really getting into 'IANAL' / 'Call A Real One' territory. Not calling an electrician means you can die and / or burn down your house.

    zagdrob on
    bowenAngelHedgieSoggybiscuit
  • SloSlo Registered User regular
    *snip*
    That'd be 6/3 though, 4/3 is going to probably be too low of a gauge.
    *snip*

    Because of the stupid north american system, a 4/3 is actually bigger then a 6/3.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

    OP seems on the right track now, although if you've got to increase your panel size to 100A, you might want to just suck up the punch to your wallet and pay for the 200A service. Hydro would still need to turn off your power regardless, and (at least in BC, Canada) you have to have an inspection report on any changes you do to your main service before hydro comes back in.

    You'd have to deal with that twice if in the future you did decide to upgrade again.

  • BlazeFireBlazeFire Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Consider the voltage of whatever welder you are planning on running.

    Also, I think you have decided this as well but just buy a new panel. They are not that expensive and then you are sure.

    BlazeFire on
    Kakodaimonos
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Slo wrote: »
    *snip*
    That'd be 6/3 though, 4/3 is going to probably be too low of a gauge.
    *snip*

    Because of the stupid north american system, a 4/3 is actually bigger then a 6/3.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

    OP seems on the right track now, although if you've got to increase your panel size to 100A, you might want to just suck up the punch to your wallet and pay for the 200A service. Hydro would still need to turn off your power regardless, and (at least in BC, Canada) you have to have an inspection report on any changes you do to your main service before hydro comes back in.

    You'd have to deal with that twice if in the future you did decide to upgrade again.

    Yeah it's stupid, most people say lower as it goes down around here though. Depends on the electrician you talk to too how they describe it.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • MyiagrosMyiagros Registered User regular
    Good news. My current service is already a 200A draw so all I have to do is upgrade the panel.

    iRevert wrote: »
    Because if you're going to attempt to squeeze that big black monster into your slot you will need to be able to take at least 12 inches or else you're going to have a bad time...
    Steam: MyiagrosX27
    bowenAngelHedgiechrishallett83
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