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Difficult Relationship With Unstable Parent
AltercationAlt
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
"Too Much Text" incoming!
So I've been pretty much convinced for over a decade, now, that my mother may have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Not being a psychotherapist myself (and her never having been officially diagnosed by a professional), I can't be sure, but she fits the vast majority of the suggested patterns and behaviors. Just to get this out of the way - I'm not interested in arguing whether or not she has this disorder, simply because I understand fully that this may not be the case. That being said, she exhibits so many of the behaviors, and so strongly, that I feel it's helpful to mention anyhow to give a background on how she interacts with me, as it hits the nail on the head regardless.
Some backstory:
A few days ago, my brother suggested that she was speaking poorly of me and my ability to communicate...so I mentioned in a message to her what he had said. I told her that I wasn't sure if it was true or not, that I had been planning on calling her soon (true), but hearing what my brother had said made me feel shitty. I asked if she was angry with me at all, and I mentioned that I had been going through a lot recently (true) and that I hoped she'd understand I was trying my best.
She replied with this:
"Who is mad? I'm not, I just wonder why I haven't seen you for almost a year, and I can count on the fingers of one hand our conversations in that time. I know you are having a hard time, and that you don't welcome my attention, my ideas, suggestions or remarks on your life. You made that very clear. So I don't persist. Because I'm heartbroken, really, at your cold shoulder. I want nothing more than to be part of your life, to feel welcome - to call you, to chat on the phone, to give you a hug when I see you, and most of all, to let you know how very much I love you."
I have not yet replied to her, because I'm not sure how to. I was not at all expecting that message, or the suggestion I was ignoring her. I would currently like to maintain a relationship with her rather than cut her out of my life completely. The only thing I can think of that might not enrage her is apologizing, but I'm afraid to apologize (even though I feel I have done nothing wrong) because I feel it would validate this reaction to her, and she would hold it over my head and reference back to it repeatedly. I'm afraid of suggesting we set any boundaries, because she's never done well with that, and I feel she'll go into Hyperbole Mode, which is useless and gets us nowhere.
I've considered saying "I'm sorry you feel that way - I haven't felt like I have been giving you the cold shoulder at all...I thought we had a fun time talking about the pictures you sent me last week, and I try to answer every phone call or text you send me. Would you like to try having a regular, scheduled talk once a month?"
This might backfire and she might say, "WHATEVER, [my name]" - another favorite of hers - and then ignore me. She also might accept, and drag me across the coals in each conversation for not doing this sooner. She might also want it more frequently, which would be very hard and potentially too stressful for me. I don't know, but I feel like it's my best shot. I've gotten better at setting some limits for myself regarding her behavior - that if she's treating me too poorly, I'll try to remove myself from the conversation. It's still a difficult balancing act because I'd like to continue to have a relationship with her, but I feel she makes that impossible sometimes. I don't think she's acting abusive presently (maybe she is?? I don't know), but she feels very needy, demanding, and very childish. It does hurt. Other times, though, we can have a really great conversation...so that's why I'd like to try to maintain contact. Ideally I'd like her to try to get some therapy but I'm not sure if she'd ever accept the idea.
I'm wondering if anybody has maintained a relationship like this out of choice, how they've kept it "healthy" for themselves, or if it's not healthy at all and no contact would be best, etc. I'm just at a loss. She is not rational half the time. I'm not sure how to not upset her, while not upsetting myself.
So I've been pretty much convinced for over a decade, now, that my mother may have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Not being a psychotherapist myself (and her never having been officially diagnosed by a professional), I can't be sure, but she fits the vast majority of the suggested patterns and behaviors. Just to get this out of the way - I'm not interested in arguing whether or not she has this disorder, simply because I understand fully that this may not be the case. That being said, she exhibits so many of the behaviors, and so strongly, that I feel it's helpful to mention anyhow to give a background on how she interacts with me, as it hits the nail on the head regardless.
Some backstory:
My mother has always been rather difficult to get along with [for myself, for her mother, for her siblings, for neighbors, for her coworkers, etc]. She physically abused me for about a year and a half that started right after my parents divorced when I was in the 5th grade, and was verbally and emotionally abusive to me for roughly eight years - basically from age 10 until I was able to go to college and remove myself from the household.
In my senior year of high school, she remarried somebody, and I feel she started to improve as a person and a parent. She is far from perfect, but it allowed us to renew a bit of a relationship. Now that I live in another state over and have my own life and apartment, things have been much, much easier. She and I call eachother every now and then, and more often than not we have a pleasant, fulfilling conversation.
Sometimes, though, she'll tell me what I should be doing in my life, or she'll make suggestions on places she wants me to work (because they are exciting places to her), or tell me I should break up with my boyfriend, or whathaveyou. When I do anything but thank her for these "suggestions", she gets extremely mad and immediately frames the situation as if I've "never taken any of her advice and clearly never will and I don't care". Radical hyperbole is a favorite of hers. She would continually buy me sweets when I was trying to lose weight - when I thanked her but asked her not to get me any more, she'd say, "FINE, I'll never do anything nice for you EVER AGAIN." She can be incredibly childish like that out of the blue.
In my senior year of high school, she remarried somebody, and I feel she started to improve as a person and a parent. She is far from perfect, but it allowed us to renew a bit of a relationship. Now that I live in another state over and have my own life and apartment, things have been much, much easier. She and I call eachother every now and then, and more often than not we have a pleasant, fulfilling conversation.
Sometimes, though, she'll tell me what I should be doing in my life, or she'll make suggestions on places she wants me to work (because they are exciting places to her), or tell me I should break up with my boyfriend, or whathaveyou. When I do anything but thank her for these "suggestions", she gets extremely mad and immediately frames the situation as if I've "never taken any of her advice and clearly never will and I don't care". Radical hyperbole is a favorite of hers. She would continually buy me sweets when I was trying to lose weight - when I thanked her but asked her not to get me any more, she'd say, "FINE, I'll never do anything nice for you EVER AGAIN." She can be incredibly childish like that out of the blue.
A few days ago, my brother suggested that she was speaking poorly of me and my ability to communicate...so I mentioned in a message to her what he had said. I told her that I wasn't sure if it was true or not, that I had been planning on calling her soon (true), but hearing what my brother had said made me feel shitty. I asked if she was angry with me at all, and I mentioned that I had been going through a lot recently (true) and that I hoped she'd understand I was trying my best.
She replied with this:
"Who is mad? I'm not, I just wonder why I haven't seen you for almost a year, and I can count on the fingers of one hand our conversations in that time. I know you are having a hard time, and that you don't welcome my attention, my ideas, suggestions or remarks on your life. You made that very clear. So I don't persist. Because I'm heartbroken, really, at your cold shoulder. I want nothing more than to be part of your life, to feel welcome - to call you, to chat on the phone, to give you a hug when I see you, and most of all, to let you know how very much I love you."
Facts:
1. It is over a three hour drive from my place to hers. I have told her she is welcome to visit me. It is incredibly expensive for me to make this trip. I have made this trip at least once in the past year.
2. We have spoken at least a dozen or two times in the past year.
3. She doesn't know the hard time I'm speaking about, which has been a recent serious medical scare.
4. I have never even suggested that I don't welcome "any attention, ideas, suggestions or remarks". I don't welcome her telling me to break up with my boyfriend or work somewhere else because she thinks it's "cool", or her advice about *applying* to jobs by walking into famous film and game studios and asking to meet with the Art Director. If I thank her but decline any of her "advice", she becomes livid and hyperbolic in my "mistreatment" of her.
5. We communicated cheerfully last week. We have been keeping in regular contact. I honestly have no idea how she thinks this is a "cold shoulder".
6. She made an incredibly hurtful post about me on her mostly-abandoned blog last year, where she again referenced how "cold" I was to her (this happened right after a conversation where she told me to break up with my boyfriend, move, and apply to her favorite company...and I asked her to please not say that stuff to me anymore).
7. She bounces back and forth between telling me how wonderful I am, and suggesting how awful of a daughter I am. In company, she'll make up stories and gross exaggerations about me that put me in an awful light, while falsely inflating herself. She has always had a problem with viewing herself as a martyr or victim. She has always had a problem with any rejection of her "suggestions", no matter how kindly done...she will immediately fly off the handle into Hyperbole Mode, saying "FINE, I'll never_____ again". She very rarely obliges any requests on changing her behavior, even if she is told her behavior is hurtful. If she does at all, she never lets you forget how awful you are for suggesting it, then she reverts back. She put me in therapy about eight times because she wanted them to "fix" me - she would pull me out in a rage and find somebody else after the therapist would suggest she was part of the problem and should join the sessions (every time).
I have not yet replied to her, because I'm not sure how to. I was not at all expecting that message, or the suggestion I was ignoring her. I would currently like to maintain a relationship with her rather than cut her out of my life completely. The only thing I can think of that might not enrage her is apologizing, but I'm afraid to apologize (even though I feel I have done nothing wrong) because I feel it would validate this reaction to her, and she would hold it over my head and reference back to it repeatedly. I'm afraid of suggesting we set any boundaries, because she's never done well with that, and I feel she'll go into Hyperbole Mode, which is useless and gets us nowhere.
I've considered saying "I'm sorry you feel that way - I haven't felt like I have been giving you the cold shoulder at all...I thought we had a fun time talking about the pictures you sent me last week, and I try to answer every phone call or text you send me. Would you like to try having a regular, scheduled talk once a month?"
This might backfire and she might say, "WHATEVER, [my name]" - another favorite of hers - and then ignore me. She also might accept, and drag me across the coals in each conversation for not doing this sooner. She might also want it more frequently, which would be very hard and potentially too stressful for me. I don't know, but I feel like it's my best shot. I've gotten better at setting some limits for myself regarding her behavior - that if she's treating me too poorly, I'll try to remove myself from the conversation. It's still a difficult balancing act because I'd like to continue to have a relationship with her, but I feel she makes that impossible sometimes. I don't think she's acting abusive presently (maybe she is?? I don't know), but she feels very needy, demanding, and very childish. It does hurt. Other times, though, we can have a really great conversation...so that's why I'd like to try to maintain contact. Ideally I'd like her to try to get some therapy but I'm not sure if she'd ever accept the idea.
I'm wondering if anybody has maintained a relationship like this out of choice, how they've kept it "healthy" for themselves, or if it's not healthy at all and no contact would be best, etc. I'm just at a loss. She is not rational half the time. I'm not sure how to not upset her, while not upsetting myself.
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My only suggestion is to essentially temporarily cut her out. Set firm limits on what is or is not acceptable in a conversation. Set firm limits on how she can or cannot speak to you. Explain why, and what you will do if they are violated. Yes, I am essentially saying you need to treat her like a child. I say this because that's how she is acting. I had to resort to the same thing and eventually my mother and I got to a better place. Into an amazing place once she got help, but that is something you have no control over.
If you want a healthy relationship you have to define that to her and risk losing contact for a while. Otherwise she will continue to steam roll you and play games because that's what gets her the attention she wants. I don't know near enough to diagnose, but as a social worker and long time psych ward employee I know attention seeking when I see it. Give her the attention and you will not see change. It's sad, it's hard, and it's very painful. I can't think of any other way of handling it though.
Certainly I am not saying to just shut her out immediately mind you. Just that you have a set of ground rules she has to abide by or else. We all have one implicitly and that is usually enough. Sadly you have a special family member who doesn't like implicit rules or the normal social contract. It could be once you lay it out everything works out with no problems. Chances are it will require a lot of hanging up on her and returning her calls when you are ready emotionally to handle the fallout, and her having to deal with it.
At any rate I wish you the best of luck. Your mother has put you in a shitty position and that just sucks beyond belief. I hope this works out for you whether my advice is useful or not.
To have an adult relationship with this woman, you're going to have to work towards realizing that it is OK if she is upset, that there is nothing you can do or not do to keep her from that state. It's going to be you internalizing the fact that you are not responsible for keeping your mother happy, and that you don't have to apologize when you've done nothing wrong. It's a pretty hard state to get to. Therapy might be a good idea for you.
I haven't read it myself, but I've heard that Will I Ever Be Good Enough? is helpful in teaching family boundary setting, even if your mother isn't clinically Narcissistic.
Also because it's my favorite advice blog, here's a link to a couple of Captain Awkward letters about dealing with a tantrum-throwing parent.
Good luck.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
I have tried numerous times to explain to her how her behavior is hurtful or unfair, and I've tried being patient and understanding. Nothing ever worked. In the end, it came down to a choice between cutting her off entirely, and just accepting that she is going to often be mean or irrational and decide not to give a damn. I did the latter. She says and does some fucking horrific things, but I shrug them off, because I know they have nothing to do with me at all. The only time I take it seriously is when it hurts my children, and in those cases I make it very clear that that shit is not okay, and she seems to take a hint, but mostly I just establish to my kids that they are not to take crazy old grandma's rantings seriously.
It's possible things might work out better with your own mother. I'd definitely recommend talking with her about it in unambiguous terms. Just understand that it very well might accomplish nothing, and at that point you'll have a decision to make.
This may sound cold, but frankly I don't see why you feel the need to keep a person like this in your life, especially with her past history of even more severe abuse. People like this don't change. They are like a drain on your spirit, and slowly but surely they will suck everything they can out of your life, for as long as you let them.
As others have said, take charge and tell her flat out, in no uncertain terms, that her behavior is unacceptable and you expect to be treated better. You will not be issued demands as if you are a servant, and you will not be belittled as if you are her plaything. If she can't handle that (which I suspect she won't, especially if she does actually have some type of psychological condition) it may be best for you to cut off contact altogether. You owe her nothing for giving birth to you, raising you, feeding you, or any of that other pathetic BS controlling parents use against their adult children. That was her choice, and it has nothing to do with her current relationship with you. Although honestly I wouldn't call some phone calls and a visit once a year or so much of a relationship. (And that is not a criticism of you at all, just an observation.)
Scribe. Purveyor of Logic. Player of Video Games.
I personally lean towards the bolded. You are not beholden to your mother for anything at this point and if it was me and any family member said what your mother said in the OP I'd have no trouble cutting ties then and there.
That said
Not everyone is as easily detached from their family. I'd hazard a guess that since you've been in touch with her this long you feel some attachment. I'd recommend writing down everything you're feeling in to a letter to your mother. Afterward you can hopefully discuss it in a productive manner. But if she goes straight back to trying to guilt and control you I would suggest ending it.
Just because she's family does not mean you have to stay in contact if the relationship is hurtful to you.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
I think one of the main reasons why I'm trying to avoid cutting her out completely is that I feel like I have almost no family left that I have any relationship with. I finally bit the bullet last year and cut my father out of my life for being a Grade A Manipulator and overall awful parent. I'm not concerned with people here knowing who I am (I just didn't want this thread popping up in my thread history or anything) - so to give some background on him you can start here if anyone is so inclined. I feel like it might even be helpful for people to understand how, between the two of them, my mother has actually been in recent years the Much Better Parent, which I suppose is saying something.
I had to stop communicating with my entire father's side of the family about a decade ago, due to them guilt-tripping me over not speaking to him after the theater incident (the 2nd post in that link). My brother and I have nothing in common and I worry anything I say to him may be forwarded to my father. My mother's parents, my grandparents, were wonderful but are no longer with us. My mother's siblings (my aunts and uncles) live very far away, I almost never speak with my cousins as a result, and the only cousin I really connect with (and who lives within visiting distance) has her own issues and is a bit of a hermit.
After having been around so many people who hold blood-relative family in such high regard, it's been really hard to try and change my own description of what "family" is. Currently it involves myself and my boyfriend and our plants. :P We might get a dog at some point.
I've been trying to gather a stronger social circle lately too, as my "group of local friends" has been dwindling as people have moved away. I think I've just been trying desperately to attach myself to the relationship with my mother since sometimes, it can be beneficial, and I've felt so lacking in a "circle of support or friendship" in the past two years that it's been a bit of a comfort. It's not a perfectly healthy relationship, but it felt better than not having one with her at all.
I feel like I should reply to her, somehow, and after hearing some feedback from you guys I might actually try to set some solid boundaries rather than purely placate her. I expect she'll blow up and ignore me for awhile, but maybe after some time spent cooling off she'll be able to have conversations again. My boyfriend has been very supportive about my setting boundaries with her, and has encouraged me to remove myself from any situation where she is treating me poorly. It might be difficult for me at first to remind myself, but I feel like repeatedly reminding her of the boundaries when she oversteps them might possibly work in the long-term. I'm going to try figuring out how to reply to her now...
Nope, fuck that. I do believe that if someone is not a net positive in your life, and if your relationship with them makes either of you worse, it's not healthy and shouldn't be and all the blood in the world won't change that. You can't choose your family... until you reach the age of majority and then you sure as hell can.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't choose to keep her in your life, but if you do, recognize that for what it is: your choice. You are choosing to keep her in your life, and you can choose not to at any time. You have all the power here. If it doesn't work out, or if you can't reach a compromise that you can live with, you don't have to.
I find knowing that helps me a lot. The people in my life are there because I choose for them to be, and I can change my mind because I am an adult and I get to decide who I want to spend my time and energy interacting with.
Another amazing thing - something I'd not really consciously considered, even though it seems like it would be an obvious realization, and so simple. Thanks for that @ceres. Thinking about the relationship this way feels much more empowering, and less like I'm at the mercy of my mother. It's something I should definitely continue to remind myself, and I think will help me remain resolute against any guilt she tries to throw at me.
I think I've decided to say this:
Crap, I'm sorry...I didn't realize I was still logged in. I tried to delete it but I'm not given an option. I removed the body of the post, though.
The only other advice i have is that if you're feeling like you have no family, seek out new friends or work on the relationships you have with your current friends. There are loads of people out there who will love and support you with none of the baggage your mom has right now.
Despite the entirely-expected hyperbole, the spin-around of "oh, I told you to go out with him, not break up with him!" and the hilarious "not every parent feels that way, but clearly I do because I am so wonderful, not like you say" I think this was probably the best I could have hoped for.
If she wants to be hyperbolic and not admit any fault whatsoever, she is only hurting herself la la la! Though I am hitting my head to my desk repeatedly at the resurfacing of her "quirks", I'm glad this didn't blow up as it so often does.
Thanks again for all the feedback guys, it definitely helped me out.
I am probably reading way too much into this, but if her quirks died down in direct connection to her second marriage as your OP implies, and those quirks are starting to resurface now, her marriage may be taking a downward turn and she could be lashing out in response.
If it's possible (as we don't know the full story here), and you feel comfortable doing so, it may be time you turned the tables and (edit:politely!) stuck your nose in her business.
I'm generally of the mindset that family is important but that really only applies to situations where things are still manageable. You don't have to stay in any relationship that is abusive or toxic and it is silliness of the highest order to suggest so.
Maybe you can't just give up on family, but that doesn't mean you can't give up on family.
I just had to accept that my mother is a terrible person more often than not, and learn to tune her out (I could've taken a few lessons from my brother on that front a few years ago). She really thinks that she's both the light of the world & it's most downtrodden victim, and the time she had the most negative impact on me was when she was able to convince me of the same thing. After I decided that her projected self-image was nonsense, things became much more tolerable in strange sort of way, and I've found that we actually get along slightly better without me trying to placate her.
Nah, when I said "resurface" I meant she does this cyclically. She's never completely stopped acting this way, only lessened in severity in a few areas.
It is certainly more complex than "NPD bad". I'm not hanging on NPD, but it has been helpful for me to learn about, since my mother exhibits the vast majority of symptoms and it gives me something more solid than "my mother is awful for 100 seemingly-separate reasons, how do I deal with this". There's literature about NPD specifically, and more importantly there's info on how others communicate and set boundaries with family members who have NPD. Again, as I said in the OP, I am not trying to use this thread to diagnose her or not diagnose her...but reading up on NPD has been useful to me since it's a catch-all for her symptoms, and is a starting point for me to learn how to communicate with somebody with all those symptoms together.
The past few years I've been relatively good at putting a "wall" up between myself and my mother, so when she starts acting childish or mean, I can turn off and tune her out a bit. Still getting practice with that but it feels much better than simply placating her.
She called me up today (much earlier in the week than I would've wanted, actually) and asked to speak once a week. I told her I couldn't promise anything, and told her not to get angry if I have to skip a week or only do every other week. She again said "I'm not angry!" . I let her talk about herself, knowing that was likely the reason she called, and volunteered only a few sentences about what I had done this week (and nothing about the health concerns). It was all I could really muster - the last thing in the world that I wanted to do was talk to her at all. It was a thankfully short conversation.