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America's Unhealthy Media, Porn Vs Violence

PreacherPreacher Registered User regular


This a video from freaking 1980! It discusses the prevalence of violence directed at women and all the films that champion the violence. What was true back in 1980 is even more true now, America has a problem (and maybe other countries, but I can only speak for Merica since that's the country who's media I consume) with violence and violent media's acceptance in our mainstream society. Like any given night on any of the major broadcast networks you can tune in and see acts of horrific violence (decapitations, eye gouging, executions) from 8pm to 11pm these are perfectly fine to show on broadcast tv (cable is even worse at times, like fargo for instance had a graphic scene where a person got his leg caught in a bear trap and you could see in detail him putting his own bone back into position on his leg). What you can't tune in and see on any major network is frontal nudity or sexual penetration. I believe there are even network rules about speaking about vaginas and dicks, you can't even say the words when talking about sexual organs!

It's strange that Sexual fantasy is considered forbidden for main stream media and sexual fantasy is pretty healthy for people to engage in, where as violent fantasy is fair game, and violent fantasies can be pretty harmful. Why is it ok to show a dude get shot in the dick but not show a man using his dick for sex? This is not some shaming of violence, I like action movies, but at some point I wonder why is one fantasy main stream, and the other something you have to find on the internet or in some back room store with the windows blacked out?

This is a topic for a discussion on America's love of violence and fear of sex. Its not really a gender wars or topic on why feminists hate porn, so don't turn it into that please.

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Posts

  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    I'm gonna go with the 'women as property' mindset as the foundation. As other forms of fundamentalism have thrived in the U.S. longer, so has that.

    It's grown into it's own issue from there, but Puritanical sexual moires basically come down to keeping women from wanting to do it when you don't want them to, I think.

    edit: I should reiterate that it's grown far beyond that. Even in a relatively enlightened(?) environment like this one, people will decry freaky porn as spawning evil rapists while being A-OK with enacting ultraviolent murder fantasies in a video game.

    Kamar on
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    But it even applies to dudes. Like you won't see much dudity on mainstream tv, and even in r rated movies, you're more likely to see some tits, or vagoo, than you would a penis. Why can't we admire the male form?

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  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Preacher wrote: »
    But it even applies to dudes. Like you won't see much dudity on mainstream tv, and even in r rated movies, you're more likely to see some tits, or vagoo, than you would a penis. Why can't we admire the male form?

    Cuz your daughters or wife might have Feelings about that, and that might lead them to go lose their value.

    Or, even worse, your sons might.

    Kamar on
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    I would hesittate to draw a direct equivalence between sex taboos and nudity taboos. They're overlapping phenomena but I suspect they are different and have different reasons for being.

    FeralshrykejmcdonaldMrMisterjoshofalltrades
  • KadokenKadoken Wap it out Registered User regular
    I would rather have the USA media's stance on violence rather than the standards in some Euro countries that puss out on it (See German ratings standards for videogames).

    Lanlaorn
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    But it even applies to dudes. Like you won't see much dudity on mainstream tv, and even in r rated movies, you're more likely to see some tits, or vagoo, than you would a penis. Why can't we admire the male form?

    Cuz your daughters or wife might have Feelings about that, and that might lead them to go lose their value.

    Or, even worse, your sons might.

    Men have control issues in general, I feel, and this is just one more way in which that is expressed. Can't have the wife leaving, or the daughter running off, or the son getting the gay.

    But violence, now there's a language we can understand with our monkey brains. And it is a means of control, if obviously a harmful and ultimately self defeating one.

    488W936.png
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    I would hesittate to draw a direct equivalence between sex taboos and nudity taboos. They're overlapping phenomena but I suspect they are different and have different reasons for being.

    I think they are pretty directly linked. Though I'd be ok if we're going to get dongs going in, to at least seem some dongs you know, some flopping brain.

    Another great example of sex being stupid in merica is the first ME game had one sex scene and wound up on fox news for that, despite the game having several overly violent moments including flat out punching a woman in the face for daring to ask you a question your character didn't agree with.

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  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    I should note that I have no problem with sexual or violent fantasies at any level of extremity or combination, but I suspect we're bad at establishing baseline reality WRT sex because society's so scared of it.

    We can look at abstinence-only outcomes and see the problems with hiding the most basic information of sex, I suspect this goes all the way down the line to extreme stuff.

    I'm not even talking about outlets, I'm talking about honest, shameless discussions. Imagine if violence were as taboo as sex, if parents got embarrassed or angry when their kids asked them about guns. It'd be a hell of a mess.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    That is something I've noticed with parents at my job, they seem terrified of their kids asking them about sex. And I know I'm not a parent, but I can't see whats so awful about it, I know you don't want to think about your kid being the meat in a dick sandwich, but if that's what they want to do, shouldn't you want to be open and honest about that so they can be safe in the sex they engage in?

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  • FeralFeral That's what I do. I drink, and I know things. Location: ByakkoyaRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    I would hesittate to draw a direct equivalence between sex taboos and nudity taboos. They're overlapping phenomena but I suspect they are different and have different reasons for being.

    I think they are pretty directly linked. Though I'd be ok if we're going to get dongs going in, to at least seem some dongs you know, some flopping brain.

    Another great example of sex being stupid in merica is the first ME game had one sex scene and wound up on fox news for that, despite the game having several overly violent moments including flat out punching a woman in the face for daring to ask you a question your character didn't agree with.

    At the very least, sexualization of nudity is kind of an idiosyncratic thing. In the US, nudity taboo and sex taboo are linked, but that isn't universal by any stretch.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Well I can only speak for merica, as I said its the only media I consume on a regular basis.

    What is weird though is that we sell sex in america in almost all of our commercial media, but we have to do it behind tight clothing and innuendo, just can't show someone getting their dick sucked because they bought a bmw.

    I mean fuck sake we have dick pill commercials on at all hours of the night, and they still have to hide what the pills are for "Oh look she's painting his wood and then they sit on it after they are finished."

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  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Well I can only speak for merica, as I said its the only media I consume on a regular basis.

    What is weird though is that we sell sex in america in almost all of our commercial media, but we have to do it behind tight clothing and innuendo, just can't show someone getting their dick sucked because they bought a bmw.

    I mean fuck sake we have dick pill commercials on at all hours of the night, and they still have to hide what the pills are for "Oh look she's painting his wood and then they sit on it after they are finished."

    The story goes that violence and sex are bad, evil, detrimental, whatever. With violence we can draw the line fairly easily between appropriate acts and inappropriate acts. With sex, the line is more difficult to define.

    When a lady kills a guy in a movie we can show it, because everyone knows it's fictional violence, and they shouldn't do that in real life.

    If we depict a lady sucking off a guy in a movie, people might not know that it's wrong, and that they shouldn't do it. They might think it's an endorsement. So it has to be implied.

    It's not weird that we depict sex this way in the media, because we think sex is naughty, bad, and evil, but difficult to define.

    What's weird is that we think sex is naughty, bad, and evil.

    It's like any other issue with media / entertainment. The problem isn't with the media and entertainment. The problem is with the ideas and beliefs that generate the media / entertainment.

    FeralKamarshrykejmcdonaldMrVyngaardjoshofalltradesCorehealerLanlaornGennenalyse RuebenCommunistCowEvigilant
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    So why is sex bad, naughty evil? Its like the old Carlin joke about cock sucker. "It's bad man, its a good woman!" Hell he even has heteronormative in there with the bad man part.

    That's where I'm going nuts with american attitudes, why is sex to be used to sell things, but only in its most hidden ways? Why can we show a woman in a wet tshirt basically showing your her nipples, but oh my god don't show me bare nipples!

    Why is america in 2014 in the same sexual place that puritans were back in the whateverfucking year they were around and made a damn?

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  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    So why is sex bad, naughty evil? Its like the old Carlin joke about cock sucker. "It's bad man, its a good woman!" Hell he even has heteronormative in there with the bad man part.

    That's where I'm going nuts with american attitudes, why is sex to be used to sell things, but only in its most hidden ways? Why can we show a woman in a wet tshirt basically showing your her nipples, but oh my god don't show me bare nipples!

    Why is america in 2014 in the same sexual place that puritans were back in the whateverfucking year they were around and made a damn?

    Well. It's not.

    But that's obvious and I know you know that's obvious.

    The biggest problem is there is still an inordinate amount of fanatical religious nuts in the country who elect politicians on bullshit platforms like "Abortion is evil" or politicians who actually are fanatical religious nuts themselves. I'm talking everyone from local to state to federal level too.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2014
    Preacher wrote: »
    So why is sex bad, naughty evil?

    Oh, that's easy.
    Augustine wrote:
    Lust requires for its consummation darkness and secrecy...What! does not even conjugal intercourse, sanctioned as it is by law for the propagation of children, legitimate and honorable though it be, does it not seek retirement from every eye?... And yet, when this well-understood act is gone about for the procreation of children, not even the children themselves, who may already have been born to them, are suffered to be witnesses....
    City of God, Book 14, Chapter 18

    We know sex is bad, naughty evil because we find the need to do it in private, hidden away from public scrutiny. Even the children produced by sex are not permitted to watch parents engage in the sexual act, because the parents are ashamed. Even people who frequent brothels do the act in private, to hide their shame.

    Why is it shameful?
    Augustine wrote:
    But so long as the will retains under its authority the other members, without which the members excited by lust to resist the will cannot accomplish what they seek, chastity is preserved, and the delight of sin foregone. And certainly, had not culpable disobedience been visited with penal disobedience, the marriage of Paradise should have been ignorant of this struggle and rebellion, this quarrel between will and lust, that the will may be satisfied and lust restrained, but those members, like all the rest, should have obeyed the will.
    City of God, Book 14, Chapter 23

    Sex is shameful because "the members are moved" (men get erections) through lust, not rational willing. The "sexual members" act independent of one's will, against one's will. A man cannot will his erection away, since it is motivated and controlled by lust. We are ashamed of our inability to control that lust.

    And in case you were curious: But doesn't that mean procreation required lust?
    Augustine wrote:
    Their condition was different before sin. For as it is written, “They were naked and were not ashamed,”—not that their nakedness was unknown to them, but because nakedness was not yet shameful, because not yet did lust move those members without the will’s consent; not yet did the flesh by its disobedience testify against the disobedience of man.
    City of God, Book 14, Chapter 17

    Prior to the fall, Adam would have willed an erection. After the fall, Adam had erections as the result of lust, not the will, and so the erection is shameful, and so sex is shameful.

    The answer to your question is "The Catholics".

    _J_ on
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I can't imagine its just the christian faith perpetuating this myth though. People who are atheists still believe in sex being some kind of hidden shameful thing, and not just for ugly people!

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Also why is it most modern long term religions have the same sexual hang ups? Did they all come from the same sex hating group? HOW THE FUCK DID YOU SPREAD SO MUCH YOU SEX HATERS?!

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  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2014
    Preacher wrote: »
    I can't imagine its just the christian faith perpetuating this myth though. People who are atheists still believe in sex being some kind of hidden shameful thing, and not just for ugly people!

    In what culture are those atheists raised? They are raised in a culture whose morality traces its roots back through the City of God. They might decide against that later, but it still gets in there while folks are young.

    Also, fun fact, what is the Religious composition of the U.S. Supreme Court? Oh, hey. Catholics and Jews. I wonder if the Catholics and Jews share a common origin story for humankind.

    Others may have other explanations, but I'm pretty sure it is mainly the result of Augustine.

    _J_ on
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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    God damn Augustine, first you give us the worst month for heat, and now you keep dongs and ginas trapped? You bastard!

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    The implication is that Adam and Eve basically had infinite viagra powers and that they liked to be watched, including by children. Also while ridding themselves of waste.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    I'd actually be quite interested if anyone has another explanation. I've been trying to figure out "Why is sex naughty?" since undergrad, and the best I can do is Augustine.
    • It's the common factor between all these different Western cultures.
    • It's pretty damn explicit.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    That is something I've noticed with parents at my job, they seem terrified of their kids asking them about sex. And I know I'm not a parent, but I can't see whats so awful about it, I know you don't want to think about your kid being the meat in a dick sandwich, but if that's what they want to do, shouldn't you want to be open and honest about that so they can be safe in the sex they engage in?

    It's not about being afraid your kid is sexually active. It's about sex being an incredibly awkward subject to bring up around family. Especially parents/children.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    The implication is that Adam and Eve basically had infinite viagra powers and that they liked to be watched, including by children. Also while ridding themselves of waste.

    I think the actual phrase Augustine uses is even more beautiful than the way you put it.
    The field of generation should have been sown by the organ created for this purpose, as the earth is sown by the hand.

    Corehealer
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    That is something I've noticed with parents at my job, they seem terrified of their kids asking them about sex. And I know I'm not a parent, but I can't see whats so awful about it, I know you don't want to think about your kid being the meat in a dick sandwich, but if that's what they want to do, shouldn't you want to be open and honest about that so they can be safe in the sex they engage in?

    It's not about being afraid your kid is sexually active. It's about sex being an incredibly awkward subject to bring up around family. Especially parents/children.

    But why is it awkward? I mean you set the rules here, you set the boundries for your children. You don't have to fuck your spouse in front of them, but you could show them pornographic materials and explain sex and what it means. I mean I know that people will probably think that puts you on a watch list or something, but if we hid food like we hide sex, our kids would be dead of mal nutrition!

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    I'd actually be quite interested if anyone has another explanation. I've been trying to figure out "Why is sex naughty?" since undergrad, and the best I can do is Augustine.
    • It's the common factor between all these different Western cultures.
    • It's pretty damn explicit.

    Are the central and south and east asians really open about sex?

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Preacher wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    That is something I've noticed with parents at my job, they seem terrified of their kids asking them about sex. And I know I'm not a parent, but I can't see whats so awful about it, I know you don't want to think about your kid being the meat in a dick sandwich, but if that's what they want to do, shouldn't you want to be open and honest about that so they can be safe in the sex they engage in?

    It's not about being afraid your kid is sexually active. It's about sex being an incredibly awkward subject to bring up around family. Especially parents/children.

    But why is it awkward? I mean you set the rules here, you set the boundries for your children. You don't have to fuck your spouse in front of them, but you could show them pornographic materials and explain sex and what it means. I mean I know that people will probably think that puts you on a watch list or something, but if we hid food like we hide sex, our kids would be dead of mal nutrition!

    The same reason we don't talk about sex generally.

    Like, you say "You don't have to fuck your spouse in front of them". Just look at the exact same idea that leads to you saying this and you have the whole of the issue. Sex is very private for most people.

    shryke on
  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    I'd actually be quite interested if anyone has another explanation. I've been trying to figure out "Why is sex naughty?" since undergrad, and the best I can do is Augustine.
    • It's the common factor between all these different Western cultures.
    • It's pretty damn explicit.

    I think ownership of women stands up as a broader, older source of sex taboo. You don't want your daughters having sex and wasting your value. You don't want your wife having sex with random men. To keep them from having sex, you need to hide sex. That means men can't be sexual in public, either, because it might stir those urges even if you keep the sex itself under wraps.

    A woman is property, valuable for reliably producing heirs for you (or the man you sold her too). If your wife or daughter's having sex of their own will, they're suddenly unreliable for heirs AND potentially getting sick or pregnant--not just a loss of value, but an increase in expenditures!

    _J_
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Sex as in the act sure, but sex as in the discussion doesn't have to be. I remember I ran into this wall once when I wanted to have an open conversation with my mother about my sex life as an adult and she ran from that conversation like her hair was on fire.

    It doesn't have to be awkward, we set the rules man! WE CAN CHANGE THINGS! Its one reason I want to have a child, I want to try and raise a kid with a healthy sexual attitude! You can't change the world yourself but you can make a dent!

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  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    shryke wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    I'd actually be quite interested if anyone has another explanation. I've been trying to figure out "Why is sex naughty?" since undergrad, and the best I can do is Augustine.
    • It's the common factor between all these different Western cultures.
    • It's pretty damn explicit.

    Are the central and south and east asians really open about sex?

    My understanding is that Islam has hangups similar to the Judeo-Christian hangups.

    The "far" eastern religions have far fewer hangups, but I don't know much of the specifics. Like, they have Love Hotels, which are common knowledge and not considered weird. I don't know the history of what myth founds their acceptance of hotels explicitly for bonin'.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Sex as in the act sure, but sex as in the discussion doesn't have to be. I remember I ran into this wall once when I wanted to have an open conversation with my mother about my sex life as an adult and she ran from that conversation like her hair was on fire.

    It doesn't have to be awkward, we set the rules man! WE CAN CHANGE THINGS! Its one reason I want to have a child, I want to try and raise a kid with a healthy sexual attitude! You can't change the world yourself but you can make a dent!

    Same thing. It's a private thing so people don't wanna talk about it.

    Of course we can change culture. People are trying to do that right now. But it's no mystery why the sex talk is so awkward for parents.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    I'd actually be quite interested if anyone has another explanation. I've been trying to figure out "Why is sex naughty?" since undergrad, and the best I can do is Augustine.
    • It's the common factor between all these different Western cultures.
    • It's pretty damn explicit.

    I think ownership of women stands up as a broader, older source of sex taboo. You don't want your daughters having sex and wasting your value. You don't want your wife having sex with random men. To keep them from having sex, you need to hide sex. That means men can't be sexual in public, either, because it might stir those urges even if you keep the sex itself under wraps.

    A woman is property, valuable for reliably producing heirs for you (or the man you sold her too). If your wife or daughter's having sex of their own will, they're suddenly unreliable for heirs AND potentially getting sick or pregnant--not just a loss of value, but an increase in expenditures!

    True. Preserving virginity is a practical reason to have sex taboos. I mean, no one's going to give you an ox in exchange for a daughter who isn't a virgin. That's just bad business.

    But I think there is a transition from the sort of practically-minded taboos, to a more evil/moral taboo. In Greek and early Roman culture you see a different mix of sexual taboos, but they are focused on a mix of women as property, and preserving the integrity of young men, who serve as sexual objects for old men, because why not.

    Yes, I think you are right that women as property might be the origin of having sexual taboos, but I think the nature of those taboos change over time from the practical / economic concern to a more moral and ethical concern. I think.

    IncenjucarKamarCorehealer
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Sex isn't ptivate in every culture by any means. It can be a sanitary issue, so privacy is probably valuable, but that is easy to deal with. Nudist colonies, group or public sex, or people shagging in dorms while their roommate does homework are all fairly common, too.

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    I would hesittate to draw a direct equivalence between sex taboos and nudity taboos. They're overlapping phenomena but I suspect they are different and have different reasons for being.

    America has a weird thing where there is a near 1:1 correlation between sex and nudity

  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Love-hotels are considered kind of weird. Just not "let's freak about it" weird.

    Sexy religion is historically pretty common, not only in the nebulous zone from India to Japan. Bunch of weirdos around the mediterranean, even.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2014
    A lot of it is just momentum and justifying outdated practices. So much of culture is the terror of suggesting you were raised in an imperfect way.

    Incenjucar on
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  • MuddypawsMuddypaws Registered User regular
    How much of it is linked to 3000 years of a male only religious hierarchy?

  • Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    The same reason we don't talk about sex generally.

    Like, you say "You don't have to fuck your spouse in front of them". Just look at the exact same idea that leads to you saying this and you have the whole of the issue. Sex is very private for most people.

    Very, very private. It's not something that is asked or talked about in polite conversation in America; it's seen as personal business between two people. When I watch a movie with a sex scene in it that goes beyond "oh, steve!"-cut to something else- it makes me uncomfortable, like I'm a voyeur.

    I'm unsure if this is due to Judeo-Christian morality or what, but I don't think the solution to "American tv shows horrific levels of violence but not pornography" is "let's add some pornography".

    ISIS delenda est
    _J_Corehealer
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    You have to also consider that the realities of film production are at play in this arena on top of everything else.

    It's pretty easy to fake someone being shot / stabbed / whatever. It can be plenty of fun to be the person being fake-killed, and certainly nobody's going to actually get hurt (barring an accident, which is pretty rare).

    It's much harder to 'fake' nudity or sex in any way that's convincing; the actor / actress is going to have to actually have sex, actually kiss, actually take off their clothes, etc, if you want to film that. Or a stunt double is going to have to.


    A lot of actors / actresses are not comfortable with being put in that situation, for reason I'd hope are obvious.

    The Ender on
    Not today, motherfucker
    Siska
  • MrMisterMrMister If you shoot an arrow, and it goes real high--hooray for youRegistered User regular
    Question: why are nudity and sex taboo? Answer that seems popular: to facilitate the control and subjugation of women. Alternately and/or complimentarily: the Catholics!

    These answers may be part of the story, but on their own they strike me as pretty easy and shallow. Take the first one: if the taboo around nudity and sex were just part of a social strategy for controlling women, then we would expect that matriarchal societies wouldn't have taboos around nudity and sex. But, as far as I know, they typically do. I remember, for instance, reading long ago about a society in a remote area of Southern China; they didn't have lasting male-female pairs, and society was organized around matrilineal extended family group homes. They were also libertine about sex. Male callers would show up at night to see a woman from a different family group home, and she would either decline or accept, and then if she accepted they'd fuck; but without a general expectation of permanency. All NSA all the time. But yet, despite not being patrilineally organized, and despite not restricting female sexuality, they nonetheless had a very specific social practice built up around this 'gentleman caller' model. There were strict rules for how someone could approach, when it would happen, what would be acceptable follow ups, and so on. It wasn't just fucking in the street because it felt good. In other words: they had all sorts of taboos about nudity and sex, including many of the same ones that we do (aka no getting naked or fucking in the street). It's just some of them that were different.

    So: although I think it's got to be right that some, or even all, of our taboos can be explained in terms of strategies for harnessing biology in light of social and economic needs, I very very much doubt that any such story is going to be as simple as 'they're just there to control women' or whatever. I also think that it's going to be very hard to say anything informative about these issues without consulting the wealth of anthropological data that exists both about other cultures and about our own culture's past. Just as a methodological point, I think that it's extremely hard to understand the actual causal structure underlying one's society just on the basis of thinking about one's experience of living in it--that experience is too partial, and too shot full of false consciousness to count for that much.

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  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    MrMister wrote: »
    I think that it's extremely hard to understand the actual causal structure underlying one's society just on the basis of thinking about one's experience of living in it--that experience is too partial, and too shot full of false consciousness to count for that much.

    This is what I was trying to get at in the recent 'Why Many Feel Even The Recent Past Was Better Than Now' thread, perhaps unsuccessfully.

    MrMister
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