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A Gosh Danged Separate Thread About Victim Blaming
The celebrity phone hacking thing isn't even a good example of this, because the pictures most of them had stolen weren't on their phones, they had deleted them years ago and figured they were no longer around, but the pictures were still in the data cloud, which is absolutely ridiculous.
Which annoys the hell out of me because I had contacted Google back in 2010 about recovering some deleted images from my Picasa account and they told me it couldn't be done. I suppose they just didn't want to go through the hassle of digging through tons of data backups. (Of course, this breach was Apple's fault, right? Not Google's?)
It was indeed Apple. Also, the way technology is these days, it could simply be that they didn't have the capacity back then to keep the stuff from your account around for that long, but now they do.
I love how it's pretty much all men making the 'don't take my nudes away' argument. No one is taking anyones nudie pictures away guys. I just think people (women in particular) should be aware that there's a real risk of pictures being seen by people other than the intended target. It happens all the damn time.
A cop stealing them is one of the more remote possibilities out there. Much more frequent and likely are the following:
- Recipient shows them to friends to brag (this shit happens all the time and I've personally witnessed it more than once.)
- Recipient breaks up with their SO, then shares them maliciously (happens quite a bit)
- Someone gets a hold of the place where pictures are stored and looks at them intentionally or by accident (happens frequently)
- Data theft/hacking (probably not a super high chance here unless you're famous/known)
If this happened to a friend I would offer sympathy and not say 'shoulda not took nudes'. It's their right to do so, and I would not victim blame them like a dick. I would, however; hope that people are informed of the risks before doing so and understand them before making that decision.
I don't know if any of you are familiar with Hafu, but she took naked pictures for a long distance SO and he fucking burned her after they broke up. She has to keep her stream on subscriber mode only 99% of the time because she's continually harassed because of it. I've seen her break down and cry on stream about it, far after the incident initially occurred.
I don't know if any of you are familiar with Hafu, but she took naked pictures for a long distance SO and he fucking burned her after they broke up. She has to keep her stream on subscriber mode only 99% of the time because she's continually harassed because of it. I've seen her break down and cry on stream about it, far after the incident initially occurred.
Hey this brings up a good point, about a certain recent event that is currently ongoing
For people who say "shouldn't take nuder photos"
What about chat logs? Eron Gjoni posted Zoe Quinn's chatlogs without permission. Should Zoe have not used an IM client? It's funny how nobody makes that argument, but if someone gets their photos stolen the first argument is that they shouldn't have taken them.
One problem is that 99% of devices used to take pictures or video are Internet connected to begin with, as are the devices used to store or view them.
Polaroids ain't coming back.
Talking data security (in general) prior to such a violation is a great idea. And beneficial.
But of course we usually bring it up after somebody's tits have just been plastered across the interwebs, and that's less empathetic. And the prevailing attitude of "well if you just didn't take the pictures" can fuck right off.
Again, in the case that promoted this thread the issue was armed robbery by crooked cops. Sorry, I don't feel like the victims really fucked up there. Armed robbery by crooked cop isn't something you should be mitigating against, or stressing about.
I completely agree with programjunkie that smartphones are completely insecure. But how do I have that conversation with someone unless something's happened? It's one of these, no one cares until shit hits the fan, things. I can talk myself until I'm blue in the face before Jennifer Lawrence gets her phone hacked, but she ain't listening to me, and nobody else is, until it happens, and then suddenly my lonely blog post's gotten 7 million hits. Or what if I'm not talking to Jennifer Lawrence, but I'm talking to my daughter who is a huge Jennifer Lawrence fan; will she perceive me as victim-blaming Jennifer Lawrence?
I feel like the context is very difficult to unpack, and maybe it's too complex an example to serve as a good exemplar (because of the legal, gender, technological, etc issues), so maybe I'll just ask you guys about something I did earlier today:
I ran a tutorial my 2nd year CS undergrad course (most of them are actually 3rd-years but whatever). Last week, they wrote a midterm that they just utterly tanked. Marking that thing was emotionally brutal, and I mean that for us the TAs; no more than 15% of the class could have gotten more than 50%. It was a little too long for the time given, and it was rather hard, but their performance was just abominable, full of reading (or not-reading) errors, just randomly missing numbers, pages full of rough work for a maybe 4-line question, it was a complete mess. And as I'm talking to them about their midterm, I use largely those same words as I just used in describing it to you:
"It was a little too long; it was a bit on the hard side; but even then, I feel like you guys underperformed. Question 3a started with the 4 words, 'Draw an AVL tree...,' and a lot of you just didn't. It said the tree should have the numbers 1-12, and a lot of yours just didn't. Blah blah blah." "Yeah, you're right, it was long, but you know, sometimes that's going to happen, you're going to get an exam that's too long, and you need to figure out how to cope with that. That's why people tell you, flip through the whole exam at the start, and think about which questions are easy and which are hard, and which you're going to start with, and which give you the best mark:time ratio. Right, so for this midterm, #1 was pretty hard and #2 was really hard, and even worse, #2 was the sort of question where you get 0 or you get 6, because it's one of those where you sit and think about it and you just get it, or you sit and think about it and you just never get it, and there's really no way to earn part marks for it, unless you get the answer but screw up some of the details. So if I were you guys, I'd have started with Q3 and Q4, and then Q1, and then left Q2 to the end, but I'd be thinking about it while I worked on the other questions." "And you know, we're never going to ask you sort of basic knowledge questions. We don't do that in CS. We're only going to ask you questions that you've never really seen before, but can be solved using methods and things that we've taught you, but they're always going to be a little outside the circle, and you have to be ready for that, by solving lots of similar problems and figuring out the patterns and figuring out how you can make sense of them."
And as I'm saying all this, I'm repeatedly interrupting myself with, "I'm not at all trying to dismiss your concerns, but like, I'm trying to give you advice for the future, because you need to do better in those situations, because profs will write shitty exams for you," and, "If I'm talking out of my ass, let me know." Because I'm consciously feeling like I'm "blaming the victim" a bit. But at the same time, these things happen in university; we all know that they do, and that's not going to change, and these students are on the cusp of adulthood, and they need to start tuning those critical thinking skills and turning them on themselves. And it's really not like I/we don't say those things beforehand, in this course and others too.
Was I blaming the victim? I was trying hard not to, but I couldn't think of a way to deliver the useful, pertinent information payload in a timely manner in which it'd be cognitively receivable otherwise. I'm in this position where I have - or I think I have anyways - legitimately useful, "insider" knowledge gained from experience on both sides of the exam table. Which is, to some extent, how I imagine those (male) cops who talk about rape might feel. And while I know enough to say, "Ooof, I shouldn't say what they say," I don't know how much of that is because I've figured out what's actually wrong about what they say, so much as it's just an ingrained reflex response in me now. I'm none too sure what the difference is between what they do and what I do/did. Is there one?
(I am intentionally lowering the stakes to something not criminal and not personal and not as devastating, trying to see if maybe magnitude is also a factor in whether we'd consider something "victim-blaming".)
The reason why this feels like victim blaming is because ultimately, you're excusing the core problem - in this case, that the test that was given was poorly made. Throughout your piece, you sort of acknowledge that it was a bad test, but never directly address the issue. Instead, you argue that students just accept the poor quality of the test as "how the world works", and that they should be structuring their actions to deal with the test. You also try to justify the poor quality of the exam by saying that the poor quality serves a pedagogical purpose as well.
Ultimately, that is the heart of victim blaming - an unwillingness to address the root issue, but a need to address the harms it causes.
I love how it's pretty much all men making the 'don't take my nudes away' argument. No one is taking anyones nudie pictures away guys. I just think people (women in particular) should be aware that there's a real risk of pictures being seen by people other than the intended target. It happens all the damn time.
A cop stealing them is one of the more remote possibilities out there. Much more frequent and likely are the following:
- Recipient shows them to friends to brag (this shit happens all the time and I've personally witnessed it more than once.)
- Recipient breaks up with their SO, then shares them maliciously (happens quite a bit)
- Someone gets a hold of the place where pictures are stored and looks at them intentionally or by accident (happens frequently)
- Data theft/hacking (probably not a super high chance here unless you're famous/known)
If this happened to a friend I would offer sympathy and not say 'shoulda not took nudes'. It's their right to do so, and I would not victim blame them like a dick. I would, however; hope that people are informed of the risks before doing so and understand them before making that decision.
I don't know if any of you are familiar with Hafu, but she took naked pictures for a long distance SO and he fucking burned her after they broke up. She has to keep her stream on subscriber mode only 99% of the time because she's continually harassed because of it. I've seen her break down and cry on stream about it, far after the incident initially occurred.
That shit sucks.
No, it's not that this sucks, it's that her ex violated her in a very intimate manner, yet nobody is willing to acknowledge this! That is the whole root of the problem!
I don't know if any of you are familiar with Hafu, but she took naked pictures for a long distance SO and he fucking burned her after they broke up. She has to keep her stream on subscriber mode only 99% of the time because she's continually harassed because of it. I've seen her break down and cry on stream about it, far after the incident initially occurred.
Hey this brings up a good point, about a certain recent event that is currently ongoing
For people who say "shouldn't take nuder photos"
What about chat logs? Eron Gjoni posted Zoe Quinn's chatlogs without permission. Should Zoe have not used an IM client? It's funny how nobody makes that argument, but if someone gets their photos stolen the first argument is that they shouldn't have taken them.
I would not tell any victim they shouldn't have done 'x' after they become a victim. I would, however; absolutely suggest that everyone should be aware that things you type out to others could very well be saved and/or leaked. Telling someone 'I'm sorry I cheated on you with x, y, z' in a text message can and is probably likely due to the nature of the confession to be saved and shown to others to sully your reputation by the other party.
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
I don't know if any of you are familiar with Hafu, but she took naked pictures for a long distance SO and he fucking burned her after they broke up. She has to keep her stream on subscriber mode only 99% of the time because she's continually harassed because of it. I've seen her break down and cry on stream about it, far after the incident initially occurred.
Hey this brings up a good point, about a certain recent event that is currently ongoing
For people who say "shouldn't take nuder photos"
What about chat logs? Eron Gjoni posted Zoe Quinn's chatlogs without permission. Should Zoe have not used an IM client? It's funny how nobody makes that argument, but if someone gets their photos stolen the first argument is that they shouldn't have taken them.
I would not tell any victim they shouldn't have done 'x' after they become a victim. I would, however; absolutely suggest that everyone should be aware that things you type out to others could very well be saved and/or leaked. Telling someone 'I'm sorry I cheated on you with x, y, z' in a text message can and is probably likely due to the nature of the confession to be saved and shown to others to sully your reputation by the other party.
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
+3
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
There will always be the exact same number or percentage of bad people? Nothing will ever deter someone from crime or rehabilitate someone after they've committed crimes? This is what you're arguing?
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
Sorry, that's utter gooseshit. You're just dismissing the problem by saying that nothing can be done. Not to mention that it's absolutely wrong - as was pointed out earlier, you would be surprised (and horrified) how many people will admit to rape if you avoid using the word rape.
Just because "bad people will always be there" does not mean that we cannot hold them accountable for their actions.
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
Considering the prevailing attitudes that members of my gender have regarding women I seriously doubt if they realize and or care if it is "shitty criminal behavior". The perps of this sort of behavior should be called on it, should be shamed for it and in other cases prosecuted for it.
Seriously, if you feel the need to throw down some pre or post crime advice, maybe consider aiming it at the violators. There are consent programs (preferably as part of a general, lengthy sex ed class) for teaching young boys what sexual assault is. They aren't perfect, but they're effective. Build on it.
When we talk theft, maybe blame those responsible for the circumstances that make theft seem like the best option.
Yeah, some stupid kid might always grab your cigarettes out of your hand, but the really bad stuff can be mitigated. Coaching somebody on how to be a paragon of victims is not how you fucking do that.
It's all over my facebook feed and a lot of people are making excuses for it. Turns my stomach, personally.
I really don't want to ask this question, but what kind of excuse can possibly be made for this godawful behavior?
EDIT: Actually, my first reaction was right. The youtube comments convinced me that I don't want to go down this shitty, shitty rabbit hole in this thread.
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
Considering the prevailing attitudes that members of my gender have regarding women I seriously doubt if they realize and or care if it is "shitty criminal behavior". The perps of this sort of behavior should be called on it, should be shamed for it and in other cases prosecuted for it.
That's the other elephant in the room - that a lot of this comes down to really shitty societal views on gender. We collectively believe that a woman has only a limited right to her body, and this gets expressed in a myriad of ways.
It's all over my facebook feed and a lot of people are making excuses for it. Turns my stomach, personally.
I really don't want to ask this question, but what kind of excuse can possibly be made for this godawful behavior?
EDIT: Actually, my first reaction was right. The youtube comments convinced me that I don't want to go down this shitty, shitty rabbit hole in this thread.
It's all over my facebook feed and a lot of people are making excuses for it. Turns my stomach, personally.
I really don't want to ask this question, but what kind of excuse can possibly be made for this godawful behavior?
EDIT: Actually, my first reaction was right. The youtube comments convinced me that I don't want to go down this shitty, shitty rabbit hole in this thread.
I haven't watched the video because well I don't want my day ruined, but If rapists have a gamut of excuses and justifications they use, I am sure the dudes in this video have something similar and equally disgusting.
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
Sorry, that's utter gooseshit. You're just dismissing the problem by saying that nothing can be done. Not to mention that it's absolutely wrong - as was pointed out earlier, you would be surprised (and horrified) how many people will admit to rape if you avoid using the word rape.
Just because "bad people will always be there" does not mean that we cannot hold them accountable for their actions.
In a perfect world, those people would not exist. Last I checked, we do not live in a perfect world.
If I were talking to someone who was likely to commit rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make them less likely to rape.
If I am talking to someone who was likely to be a victim of rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make the less likely to end up getting raped.
I am not going to be having the exact same conversations about sex with my son and daughter. Again, condemning the action and talking about risk prevention are not mutually exclusive activities.
Going back to the "Going into a guys house" thing. I am a guy, and I operate under the premise of "Don't enter a room you don't have an exit plan for". If I am with someone I trust, the sure I will go into their house. But I also will not follow some guy I met on the street down a shortcut through a dark alley. It IS important to realize that anytime you follow someone into a unfamiliar place, you are basically giving them a certain amount of control over you, and you should at least check yourself to make sure you are comfortable with giving that specific person control.
I haven't watched the video, but a lot of the defenses I hear are that more innocuous comments shouldn't be counted as "harassment."
The problem is I never have random strangers wishing me a good day when walking down the street. There's really only one reason why they're wishing her a good day.
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
Sorry, that's utter gooseshit. You're just dismissing the problem by saying that nothing can be done. Not to mention that it's absolutely wrong - as was pointed out earlier, you would be surprised (and horrified) how many people will admit to rape if you avoid using the word rape.
Just because "bad people will always be there" does not mean that we cannot hold them accountable for their actions.
In a perfect world, those people would not exist. Last I checked, we do not live in a perfect world.
If I were talking to someone who was likely to commit rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make them less likely to rape.
If I am talking to someone who was likely to be a victim of rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make the less likely to end up getting raped.
I am not going to be having the exact same conversations about sex with my son and daughter. Again, condemning the action and talking about risk prevention are not mutually exclusive activities.
Going back to the "Going into a guys house" thing. I am a guy, and I operate under the premise of "Don't enter a room you don't have an exit plan for". If I am with someone I trust, the sure I will go into their house. But I also will not follow some guy I met on the street down a shortcut through a dark alley. It IS important to realize that anytime you follow someone into a unfamiliar place, you are basically giving them a certain amount of control over you, and you should at least check yourself to make sure you are comfortable with giving that specific person control.
You do realize that the majority of rapes involve individuals who are known to each other (and often have known each other for some time)? Stranger rape is, in fact, rather rare.
Stop using "we don't live in a perfect world" as an argument for excusing bad societal mores.
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
Sorry, that's utter gooseshit. You're just dismissing the problem by saying that nothing can be done. Not to mention that it's absolutely wrong - as was pointed out earlier, you would be surprised (and horrified) how many people will admit to rape if you avoid using the word rape.
Just because "bad people will always be there" does not mean that we cannot hold them accountable for their actions.
In a perfect world, those people would not exist. Last I checked, we do not live in a perfect world.
If I were talking to someone who was likely to commit rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make them less likely to rape.
If I am talking to someone who was likely to be a victim of rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make the less likely to end up getting raped.
I am not going to be having the exact same conversations about sex with my son and daughter. Again, condemning the action and talking about risk prevention are not mutually exclusive activities.
Going back to the "Going into a guys house" thing. I am a guy, and I operate under the premise of "Don't enter a room you don't have an exit plan for". If I am with someone I trust, the sure I will go into their house. But I also will not follow some guy I met on the street down a shortcut through a dark alley. It IS important to realize that anytime you follow someone into a unfamiliar place, you are basically giving them a certain amount of control over you, and you should at least check yourself to make sure you are comfortable with giving that specific person control.
You do realize that the majority of rapes involve individuals who are known to each other (and often have known each other for some time)? Stranger rape is, in fact, rather rare.
Stop using "we don't live in a perfect world" as an argument for excusing bad societal mores.
"Rapists gonna rape" is an argument I'm really weary of.
I'm still blown away that there are really people who will say "I'm not a rapist" but then say "yeah, I've had sex with someone without their consent". How is this possible?
I used to think that the idea people needed to be taught not to rape was as absurd as needing to teach them not to set puppies on fire, but apparently not.
+3
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
I'm still blown away that there are really people who will say "I'm not a rapist" but then say "yeah, I've had sex with someone without their consent". How is this possible?
I used to think that the idea people needed to be taught not to rape was as absurd as needing to teach them not to set puppies on fire, but apparently not.
It's the same principle as "I'm not a racist, but..." People have been successfully convinced that "rape" and "racism" are bad things, they know that, but since they know they're not bad people, what they do and say can't possibly be those bad things. I'm not a rapist, I just don't stop when she says no.
+3
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Another area of advice that helps prevent crime that has nothing to do with victim blaming: teaching people what to do when they witness a crime.
Every stupid parent teaches their girls not to get raped, duh, but have any mothers spent any time indoctrinating their daughters what to do if another woman is being raped? Have they made it a reflex to defend, to attack? "Isn't that obvious?" Ask the town. "We need to support each other!" sure, as long as it's from the safety of a computer monitor or a 5K, yay women. Have you explicitly told your daughters that if a woman is passed out drunk and you see a Notre Dame Hat climbing over her couch, it is your responsibility to grab an aerosol can and a lighter and threaten Armageddon, or at the very least yell stop? "Well, that's kind of dangerous." Yeah, that's kind of the point, but I grant you that it's safer to giggle and let boys be boys.
I'm still blown away that there are really people who will say "I'm not a rapist" but then say "yeah, I've had sex with someone without their consent". How is this possible?
I used to think that the idea people needed to be taught not to rape was as absurd as needing to teach them not to set puppies on fire, but apparently not.
It's the same principle as "I'm not a racist, but..." People have been successfully convinced that "rape" and "racism" are bad things, they know that, but since they know they're not bad people, what they do and say can't possibly be those bad things. I'm not a rapist, I just don't stop when she says no.
There's also the fact that we socialize women to be reluctant to say no, which results in what are known as "soft nos", which someone determined to not hear a no will find a way to rationalize as a yes. Which is why I'm a big fan of the affirmative consent model.
I love how it's pretty much all men making the 'don't take my nudes away' argument. No one is taking anyones nudie pictures away guys. I just think people (women in particular) should be aware that there's a real risk of pictures being seen by people other than the intended target. It happens all the damn time.
A cop stealing them is one of the more remote possibilities out there. Much more frequent and likely are the following:
- Recipient shows them to friends to brag (this shit happens all the time and I've personally witnessed it more than once.)
- Recipient breaks up with their SO, then shares them maliciously (happens quite a bit)
- Someone gets a hold of the place where pictures are stored and looks at them intentionally or by accident (happens frequently)
- Data theft/hacking (probably not a super high chance here unless you're famous/known)
If this happened to a friend I would offer sympathy and not say 'shoulda not took nudes'. It's their right to do so, and I would not victim blame them like a dick. I would, however; hope that people are informed of the risks before doing so and understand them before making that decision.
I don't know if any of you are familiar with Hafu, but she took naked pictures for a long distance SO and he fucking burned her after they broke up. She has to keep her stream on subscriber mode only 99% of the time because she's continually harassed because of it. I've seen her break down and cry on stream about it, far after the incident initially occurred.
That shit sucks.
No, it's not that this sucks, it's that her ex violated her in a very intimate manner, yet nobody is willing to acknowledge this! That is the whole root of the problem!
oh come on - the fundamental creepiness of gjoni posting intimate relationship details to the internet is the very first thing that pretty much everyone engages with on this topic, and afaik universally deplored outside of the hardened GG enclaves.
+4
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
Sorry, that's utter gooseshit. You're just dismissing the problem by saying that nothing can be done. Not to mention that it's absolutely wrong - as was pointed out earlier, you would be surprised (and horrified) how many people will admit to rape if you avoid using the word rape.
Just because "bad people will always be there" does not mean that we cannot hold them accountable for their actions.
In a perfect world, those people would not exist. Last I checked, we do not live in a perfect world.
If I were talking to someone who was likely to commit rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make them less likely to rape.
If I am talking to someone who was likely to be a victim of rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make the less likely to end up getting raped.
I am not going to be having the exact same conversations about sex with my son and daughter. Again, condemning the action and talking about risk prevention are not mutually exclusive activities.
Going back to the "Going into a guys house" thing. I am a guy, and I operate under the premise of "Don't enter a room you don't have an exit plan for". If I am with someone I trust, the sure I will go into their house. But I also will not follow some guy I met on the street down a shortcut through a dark alley. It IS important to realize that anytime you follow someone into a unfamiliar place, you are basically giving them a certain amount of control over you, and you should at least check yourself to make sure you are comfortable with giving that specific person control.
You do realize that the majority of rapes involve individuals who are known to each other (and often have known each other for some time)? Stranger rape is, in fact, rather rare.
Stop using "we don't live in a perfect world" as an argument for excusing bad societal mores.
no one is excusing anything dude
i don't even know how you can convince yourself this is the case
we condemn rapists. we put them in jail and force them out of our communities. we consider rape to be one of the greatest crimes in civilization.
probably the key driver for all the rape-prevention advice is the very fact that we find it so horrible.
I love how it's pretty much all men making the 'don't take my nudes away' argument. No one is taking anyones nudie pictures away guys. I just think people (women in particular) should be aware that there's a real risk of pictures being seen by people other than the intended target. It happens all the damn time.
A cop stealing them is one of the more remote possibilities out there. Much more frequent and likely are the following:
- Recipient shows them to friends to brag (this shit happens all the time and I've personally witnessed it more than once.)
- Recipient breaks up with their SO, then shares them maliciously (happens quite a bit)
- Someone gets a hold of the place where pictures are stored and looks at them intentionally or by accident (happens frequently)
- Data theft/hacking (probably not a super high chance here unless you're famous/known)
If this happened to a friend I would offer sympathy and not say 'shoulda not took nudes'. It's their right to do so, and I would not victim blame them like a dick. I would, however; hope that people are informed of the risks before doing so and understand them before making that decision.
I don't know if any of you are familiar with Hafu, but she took naked pictures for a long distance SO and he fucking burned her after they broke up. She has to keep her stream on subscriber mode only 99% of the time because she's continually harassed because of it. I've seen her break down and cry on stream about it, far after the incident initially occurred.
That shit sucks.
No, it's not that this sucks, it's that her ex violated her in a very intimate manner, yet nobody is willing to acknowledge this! That is the whole root of the problem!
oh come on - the fundamental creepiness of gjoni posting intimate relationship details to the internet is the very first thing that pretty much everyone engages with on this topic, and afaik universally deplored outside of the hardened GG enclaves.
I thought the very first thing that any GG supporter engages with was "ethics in game journalism?"
"Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
I love how it's pretty much all men making the 'don't take my nudes away' argument. No one is taking anyones nudie pictures away guys. I just think people (women in particular) should be aware that there's a real risk of pictures being seen by people other than the intended target. It happens all the damn time.
A cop stealing them is one of the more remote possibilities out there. Much more frequent and likely are the following:
- Recipient shows them to friends to brag (this shit happens all the time and I've personally witnessed it more than once.)
- Recipient breaks up with their SO, then shares them maliciously (happens quite a bit)
- Someone gets a hold of the place where pictures are stored and looks at them intentionally or by accident (happens frequently)
- Data theft/hacking (probably not a super high chance here unless you're famous/known)
If this happened to a friend I would offer sympathy and not say 'shoulda not took nudes'. It's their right to do so, and I would not victim blame them like a dick. I would, however; hope that people are informed of the risks before doing so and understand them before making that decision.
I don't know if any of you are familiar with Hafu, but she took naked pictures for a long distance SO and he fucking burned her after they broke up. She has to keep her stream on subscriber mode only 99% of the time because she's continually harassed because of it. I've seen her break down and cry on stream about it, far after the incident initially occurred.
That shit sucks.
No, it's not that this sucks, it's that her ex violated her in a very intimate manner, yet nobody is willing to acknowledge this! That is the whole root of the problem!
oh come on - the fundamental creepiness of gjoni posting intimate relationship details to the internet is the very first thing that pretty much everyone engages with on this topic, and afaik universally deplored outside of the hardened GG enclaves.
Yes, and that was an outlier. Mostly because of how far he went - his rant tripped a lot of people's radars.
More often than not, though, this sort of behavior gets excused for a myriad of reasons. Look at the issues we have with dealing with revenge porn sites - about the only way you can go after one is if you can prove that either the operator has been actually putting pictures up himself, or if underage images get posted.
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
Sorry, that's utter gooseshit. You're just dismissing the problem by saying that nothing can be done. Not to mention that it's absolutely wrong - as was pointed out earlier, you would be surprised (and horrified) how many people will admit to rape if you avoid using the word rape.
Just because "bad people will always be there" does not mean that we cannot hold them accountable for their actions.
In a perfect world, those people would not exist. Last I checked, we do not live in a perfect world.
If I were talking to someone who was likely to commit rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make them less likely to rape.
If I am talking to someone who was likely to be a victim of rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make the less likely to end up getting raped.
I am not going to be having the exact same conversations about sex with my son and daughter. Again, condemning the action and talking about risk prevention are not mutually exclusive activities.
Going back to the "Going into a guys house" thing. I am a guy, and I operate under the premise of "Don't enter a room you don't have an exit plan for". If I am with someone I trust, the sure I will go into their house. But I also will not follow some guy I met on the street down a shortcut through a dark alley. It IS important to realize that anytime you follow someone into a unfamiliar place, you are basically giving them a certain amount of control over you, and you should at least check yourself to make sure you are comfortable with giving that specific person control.
You do realize that the majority of rapes involve individuals who are known to each other (and often have known each other for some time)? Stranger rape is, in fact, rather rare.
Stop using "we don't live in a perfect world" as an argument for excusing bad societal mores.
no one is excusing anything dude
i don't even know how you can convince yourself this is the case
we condemn rapists. we put them in jail and force them out of our communities. we consider rape to be one of the greatest crimes in civilization.
probably the key driver for all the rape-prevention advice is the very fact that we find it so horrible.
Actually we don't, and that's the whole problem with rape. Society doesn't really rate rape that highly though we fool ourselves collectively we do. Society routinely blames victims, excuses rapists, and the conviction rate, or even the chance of making it to court, is laughably remote.
As individuals we might say "Oh my that's terrible" but as a society, even enlightened first world ones, we are awful at it.
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
Sorry, that's utter gooseshit. You're just dismissing the problem by saying that nothing can be done. Not to mention that it's absolutely wrong - as was pointed out earlier, you would be surprised (and horrified) how many people will admit to rape if you avoid using the word rape.
Just because "bad people will always be there" does not mean that we cannot hold them accountable for their actions.
In a perfect world, those people would not exist. Last I checked, we do not live in a perfect world.
If I were talking to someone who was likely to commit rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make them less likely to rape.
If I am talking to someone who was likely to be a victim of rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make the less likely to end up getting raped.
I am not going to be having the exact same conversations about sex with my son and daughter. Again, condemning the action and talking about risk prevention are not mutually exclusive activities.
Going back to the "Going into a guys house" thing. I am a guy, and I operate under the premise of "Don't enter a room you don't have an exit plan for". If I am with someone I trust, the sure I will go into their house. But I also will not follow some guy I met on the street down a shortcut through a dark alley. It IS important to realize that anytime you follow someone into a unfamiliar place, you are basically giving them a certain amount of control over you, and you should at least check yourself to make sure you are comfortable with giving that specific person control.
You do realize that the majority of rapes involve individuals who are known to each other (and often have known each other for some time)? Stranger rape is, in fact, rather rare.
Stop using "we don't live in a perfect world" as an argument for excusing bad societal mores.
no one is excusing anything dude
i don't even know how you can convince yourself this is the case
we condemn rapists. we put them in jail and force them out of our communities. we consider rape to be one of the greatest crimes in civilization.
probably the key driver for all the rape-prevention advice is the very fact that we find it so horrible.
Tallahassee. Missoula. South Bend. Pittsburgh. Toronto.
These are all places that stand as counterpoint to your assertion that we "condemn" rapists and shun them. I could go on, if you like.
Because for all our rhetoric about how awful the crime of rape is, we don't treat it all that terribly seriously in practice. Rape victims are routinely ignored and dismissed by law enforcement, especially if the victim doesn't act "properly". If the perpetrator is of a higher social status, even attempting an accusation can be fraught with peril, as the accuser can be very quickly dragged through the mud.
I love how it's pretty much all men making the 'don't take my nudes away' argument. No one is taking anyones nudie pictures away guys. I just think people (women in particular) should be aware that there's a real risk of pictures being seen by people other than the intended target. It happens all the damn time.
A cop stealing them is one of the more remote possibilities out there. Much more frequent and likely are the following:
- Recipient shows them to friends to brag (this shit happens all the time and I've personally witnessed it more than once.)
- Recipient breaks up with their SO, then shares them maliciously (happens quite a bit)
- Someone gets a hold of the place where pictures are stored and looks at them intentionally or by accident (happens frequently)
- Data theft/hacking (probably not a super high chance here unless you're famous/known)
If this happened to a friend I would offer sympathy and not say 'shoulda not took nudes'. It's their right to do so, and I would not victim blame them like a dick. I would, however; hope that people are informed of the risks before doing so and understand them before making that decision.
I don't know if any of you are familiar with Hafu, but she took naked pictures for a long distance SO and he fucking burned her after they broke up. She has to keep her stream on subscriber mode only 99% of the time because she's continually harassed because of it. I've seen her break down and cry on stream about it, far after the incident initially occurred.
That shit sucks.
No, it's not that this sucks, it's that her ex violated her in a very intimate manner, yet nobody is willing to acknowledge this! That is the whole root of the problem!
oh come on - the fundamental creepiness of gjoni posting intimate relationship details to the internet is the very first thing that pretty much everyone engages with on this topic, and afaik universally deplored outside of the hardened GG enclaves.
I thought the very first thing that any GG supporter engages with was "ethics in game journalism?"
yeah the "wait... journalism what?" is a close second
Why is it so hard for people to say "hey, if you give out privileged information given to you in confidence, you are an exceptionally silly goose"?
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
Sorry, that's utter gooseshit. You're just dismissing the problem by saying that nothing can be done. Not to mention that it's absolutely wrong - as was pointed out earlier, you would be surprised (and horrified) how many people will admit to rape if you avoid using the word rape.
Just because "bad people will always be there" does not mean that we cannot hold them accountable for their actions.
In a perfect world, those people would not exist. Last I checked, we do not live in a perfect world.
If I were talking to someone who was likely to commit rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make them less likely to rape.
If I am talking to someone who was likely to be a victim of rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make the less likely to end up getting raped.
I am not going to be having the exact same conversations about sex with my son and daughter. Again, condemning the action and talking about risk prevention are not mutually exclusive activities.
Going back to the "Going into a guys house" thing. I am a guy, and I operate under the premise of "Don't enter a room you don't have an exit plan for". If I am with someone I trust, the sure I will go into their house. But I also will not follow some guy I met on the street down a shortcut through a dark alley. It IS important to realize that anytime you follow someone into a unfamiliar place, you are basically giving them a certain amount of control over you, and you should at least check yourself to make sure you are comfortable with giving that specific person control.
You do realize that the majority of rapes involve individuals who are known to each other (and often have known each other for some time)? Stranger rape is, in fact, rather rare.
Stop using "we don't live in a perfect world" as an argument for excusing bad societal mores.
no one is excusing anything dude
i don't even know how you can convince yourself this is the case
we condemn rapists. we put them in jail and force them out of our communities. we consider rape to be one of the greatest crimes in civilization.
probably the key driver for all the rape-prevention advice is the very fact that we find it so horrible.
Actually we don't, and that's the whole problem with rape. Society doesn't really rate rape that highly though we fool ourselves collectively we do. Society routinely blames victims, excuses rapists, and the conviction rate, or even the chance of making it to court, is laughably remote.
As individuals we might say "Oh my that's terrible" but as a society, even enlightened first world ones, we are awful at it.
Well really depends if it was a Legitimate Rape or just a rape, cause the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.
/ugh thanks Todd Akin for that bit of insight.
When elected officials have insane ideas on Rape its a bad sign that societies ideas on it aren't so cut and dry.
Switch SW-6182-1526-0041
0
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
I love how it's pretty much all men making the 'don't take my nudes away' argument. No one is taking anyones nudie pictures away guys. I just think people (women in particular) should be aware that there's a real risk of pictures being seen by people other than the intended target. It happens all the damn time.
A cop stealing them is one of the more remote possibilities out there. Much more frequent and likely are the following:
- Recipient shows them to friends to brag (this shit happens all the time and I've personally witnessed it more than once.)
- Recipient breaks up with their SO, then shares them maliciously (happens quite a bit)
- Someone gets a hold of the place where pictures are stored and looks at them intentionally or by accident (happens frequently)
- Data theft/hacking (probably not a super high chance here unless you're famous/known)
If this happened to a friend I would offer sympathy and not say 'shoulda not took nudes'. It's their right to do so, and I would not victim blame them like a dick. I would, however; hope that people are informed of the risks before doing so and understand them before making that decision.
I don't know if any of you are familiar with Hafu, but she took naked pictures for a long distance SO and he fucking burned her after they broke up. She has to keep her stream on subscriber mode only 99% of the time because she's continually harassed because of it. I've seen her break down and cry on stream about it, far after the incident initially occurred.
That shit sucks.
No, it's not that this sucks, it's that her ex violated her in a very intimate manner, yet nobody is willing to acknowledge this! That is the whole root of the problem!
oh come on - the fundamental creepiness of gjoni posting intimate relationship details to the internet is the very first thing that pretty much everyone engages with on this topic, and afaik universally deplored outside of the hardened GG enclaves.
Yes, and that was an outlier. Mostly because of how far he went - his rant tripped a lot of people's radars.
More often than not, though, this sort of behavior gets excused for a myriad of reasons. Look at the issues we have with dealing with revenge porn sites - about the only way you can go after one is if you can prove that either the operator has been actually putting pictures up himself, or if underage images get posted.
so this, as well as many of the myriad issues surrounding rape law, is a problem with the basis of american jurisprudence - innocent until proven guilty - as well as cultural deference to first amendment on top of the general zeitgeist of the permissive internet. it's difficult to even go after sites that host obviously illegal content (talking 'bout copyright here), and there's a reluctance among internet denizens to support enforcement frameworks or efforts.
please note here that i'm not apologizing for revenge porn or saying it's okay or anything. it's not. it's a gross violation and morally horrible. but i don't think that its existence, and the legal & pragmatic difficulties in chasing it down are fundamentally caused by some sort of broadly-held misogyny or ethic of "blame the victim, forgive the victimizer"
Posts
It was indeed Apple. Also, the way technology is these days, it could simply be that they didn't have the capacity back then to keep the stuff from your account around for that long, but now they do.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
A cop stealing them is one of the more remote possibilities out there. Much more frequent and likely are the following:
- Recipient shows them to friends to brag (this shit happens all the time and I've personally witnessed it more than once.)
- Recipient breaks up with their SO, then shares them maliciously (happens quite a bit)
- Someone gets a hold of the place where pictures are stored and looks at them intentionally or by accident (happens frequently)
- Data theft/hacking (probably not a super high chance here unless you're famous/known)
If this happened to a friend I would offer sympathy and not say 'shoulda not took nudes'. It's their right to do so, and I would not victim blame them like a dick. I would, however; hope that people are informed of the risks before doing so and understand them before making that decision.
I don't know if any of you are familiar with Hafu, but she took naked pictures for a long distance SO and he fucking burned her after they broke up. She has to keep her stream on subscriber mode only 99% of the time because she's continually harassed because of it. I've seen her break down and cry on stream about it, far after the incident initially occurred.
That shit sucks.
Hey this brings up a good point, about a certain recent event that is currently ongoing
For people who say "shouldn't take nuder photos"
What about chat logs? Eron Gjoni posted Zoe Quinn's chatlogs without permission. Should Zoe have not used an IM client? It's funny how nobody makes that argument, but if someone gets their photos stolen the first argument is that they shouldn't have taken them.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
The reason why this feels like victim blaming is because ultimately, you're excusing the core problem - in this case, that the test that was given was poorly made. Throughout your piece, you sort of acknowledge that it was a bad test, but never directly address the issue. Instead, you argue that students just accept the poor quality of the test as "how the world works", and that they should be structuring their actions to deal with the test. You also try to justify the poor quality of the exam by saying that the poor quality serves a pedagogical purpose as well.
Ultimately, that is the heart of victim blaming - an unwillingness to address the root issue, but a need to address the harms it causes.
I saw this on the news this morning.
This is fucking repugnant.
It's all over my facebook feed and a lot of people are making excuses for it. Turns my stomach, personally.
No, it's not that this sucks, it's that her ex violated her in a very intimate manner, yet nobody is willing to acknowledge this! That is the whole root of the problem!
I would not tell any victim they shouldn't have done 'x' after they become a victim. I would, however; absolutely suggest that everyone should be aware that things you type out to others could very well be saved and/or leaked. Telling someone 'I'm sorry I cheated on you with x, y, z' in a text message can and is probably likely due to the nature of the confession to be saved and shown to others to sully your reputation by the other party.
Because that is sort of the whole fucking problem here!
If you show off naked pictures of your SO to others without their express consent, you are a silly goose.
If you give away naked pictures of your ex after a breakup for any reason, you are a silly goose.
If you go looking for vulnerabilities in online data storage to find private intimate pictures, you are a silly goose. (Doubly so if you then share them.)
Is this really that difficult to state? I think it tends to be, because it's easier to address the actions of the victim than the root causes of the actions of the perpetrator.
See, now you're victim shaming.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
The reason we don't say those things when we're giving out advice is because it's already known that it's shitty or criminal behavior. Bad people are always going to be out there. That's not ever going to go away.
There will always be the exact same number or percentage of bad people? Nothing will ever deter someone from crime or rehabilitate someone after they've committed crimes? This is what you're arguing?
Sorry, that's utter gooseshit. You're just dismissing the problem by saying that nothing can be done. Not to mention that it's absolutely wrong - as was pointed out earlier, you would be surprised (and horrified) how many people will admit to rape if you avoid using the word rape.
Just because "bad people will always be there" does not mean that we cannot hold them accountable for their actions.
Considering the prevailing attitudes that members of my gender have regarding women I seriously doubt if they realize and or care if it is "shitty criminal behavior". The perps of this sort of behavior should be called on it, should be shamed for it and in other cases prosecuted for it.
When we talk theft, maybe blame those responsible for the circumstances that make theft seem like the best option.
Yeah, some stupid kid might always grab your cigarettes out of your hand, but the really bad stuff can be mitigated. Coaching somebody on how to be a paragon of victims is not how you fucking do that.
I really don't want to ask this question, but what kind of excuse can possibly be made for this godawful behavior?
EDIT: Actually, my first reaction was right. The youtube comments convinced me that I don't want to go down this shitty, shitty rabbit hole in this thread.
That's the other elephant in the room - that a lot of this comes down to really shitty societal views on gender. We collectively believe that a woman has only a limited right to her body, and this gets expressed in a myriad of ways.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
I haven't watched the video because well I don't want my day ruined, but If rapists have a gamut of excuses and justifications they use, I am sure the dudes in this video have something similar and equally disgusting.
In a perfect world, those people would not exist. Last I checked, we do not live in a perfect world.
If I were talking to someone who was likely to commit rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make them less likely to rape.
If I am talking to someone who was likely to be a victim of rape, I would focus on teaching them things that would make the less likely to end up getting raped.
I am not going to be having the exact same conversations about sex with my son and daughter. Again, condemning the action and talking about risk prevention are not mutually exclusive activities.
Going back to the "Going into a guys house" thing. I am a guy, and I operate under the premise of "Don't enter a room you don't have an exit plan for". If I am with someone I trust, the sure I will go into their house. But I also will not follow some guy I met on the street down a shortcut through a dark alley. It IS important to realize that anytime you follow someone into a unfamiliar place, you are basically giving them a certain amount of control over you, and you should at least check yourself to make sure you are comfortable with giving that specific person control.
The problem is I never have random strangers wishing me a good day when walking down the street. There's really only one reason why they're wishing her a good day.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
You do realize that the majority of rapes involve individuals who are known to each other (and often have known each other for some time)? Stranger rape is, in fact, rather rare.
Stop using "we don't live in a perfect world" as an argument for excusing bad societal mores.
"Rapists gonna rape" is an argument I'm really weary of.
I used to think that the idea people needed to be taught not to rape was as absurd as needing to teach them not to set puppies on fire, but apparently not.
It's the same principle as "I'm not a racist, but..." People have been successfully convinced that "rape" and "racism" are bad things, they know that, but since they know they're not bad people, what they do and say can't possibly be those bad things. I'm not a rapist, I just don't stop when she says no.
There's also the fact that we socialize women to be reluctant to say no, which results in what are known as "soft nos", which someone determined to not hear a no will find a way to rationalize as a yes. Which is why I'm a big fan of the affirmative consent model.
oh come on - the fundamental creepiness of gjoni posting intimate relationship details to the internet is the very first thing that pretty much everyone engages with on this topic, and afaik universally deplored outside of the hardened GG enclaves.
no one is excusing anything dude
i don't even know how you can convince yourself this is the case
we condemn rapists. we put them in jail and force them out of our communities. we consider rape to be one of the greatest crimes in civilization.
probably the key driver for all the rape-prevention advice is the very fact that we find it so horrible.
I thought the very first thing that any GG supporter engages with was "ethics in game journalism?"
Yes, and that was an outlier. Mostly because of how far he went - his rant tripped a lot of people's radars.
More often than not, though, this sort of behavior gets excused for a myriad of reasons. Look at the issues we have with dealing with revenge porn sites - about the only way you can go after one is if you can prove that either the operator has been actually putting pictures up himself, or if underage images get posted.
Actually we don't, and that's the whole problem with rape. Society doesn't really rate rape that highly though we fool ourselves collectively we do. Society routinely blames victims, excuses rapists, and the conviction rate, or even the chance of making it to court, is laughably remote.
As individuals we might say "Oh my that's terrible" but as a society, even enlightened first world ones, we are awful at it.
Tallahassee. Missoula. South Bend. Pittsburgh. Toronto.
These are all places that stand as counterpoint to your assertion that we "condemn" rapists and shun them. I could go on, if you like.
Because for all our rhetoric about how awful the crime of rape is, we don't treat it all that terribly seriously in practice. Rape victims are routinely ignored and dismissed by law enforcement, especially if the victim doesn't act "properly". If the perpetrator is of a higher social status, even attempting an accusation can be fraught with peril, as the accuser can be very quickly dragged through the mud.
yeah the "wait... journalism what?" is a close second
Well really depends if it was a Legitimate Rape or just a rape, cause the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.
/ugh thanks Todd Akin for that bit of insight.
When elected officials have insane ideas on Rape its a bad sign that societies ideas on it aren't so cut and dry.
so this, as well as many of the myriad issues surrounding rape law, is a problem with the basis of american jurisprudence - innocent until proven guilty - as well as cultural deference to first amendment on top of the general zeitgeist of the permissive internet. it's difficult to even go after sites that host obviously illegal content (talking 'bout copyright here), and there's a reluctance among internet denizens to support enforcement frameworks or efforts.
please note here that i'm not apologizing for revenge porn or saying it's okay or anything. it's not. it's a gross violation and morally horrible. but i don't think that its existence, and the legal & pragmatic difficulties in chasing it down are fundamentally caused by some sort of broadly-held misogyny or ethic of "blame the victim, forgive the victimizer"