Dragon Age Thread – Too Many Breeches

Dragkonias

As far as Sera goes I actually find her identity issues much more interesting than her anarchic streak.

She reminds me of quite a few people I've come across. I actually think some of the things I saw were pretty interesting and I wonder whether or not they were done on purpose.

I needed anime to post.

Inquisitor77 wrote: »

Sera as a whole would be a much more palatable character if

they just took out the whole, "Imma shoot this guy while he's talking" bits. If you're going to be that ruthless, you better have really strong convictions or a really good reasons (probably both?). She has neither. She kills people because of some vague understanding that "they do bad things" and therefore "they deserve bad things to happen to them". When asked to articulate beyond that vague statement, she reverts to angry, reactionary behavior and basically repeats herself over and over. When dealing with a specific case, she refuses to engage in a discussion of even basic context and again repeats her mantra over and over again.

Her worldview would make sense if she didn't do stuff like kill people, because not wanting to deal with the bigger picture and rushing to judgment as to whether someone is a good guy or a bad guy is basically how all of humanity operates. But taking it to the next level and straight up murdering people makes her look like this weird combination of immature and psychotic. I'm guessing it's why she rubs a lot of people the wrong way and why the assumption seems to be that she's "not all there".

If they wanted to write a child-like psychotic, then they totally succeeded. Otherwise, I'm really not sure what they were going for with the murderbro bits.

And yes, plenty of nobles and people in power behave similarly. The difference here is that they are widely recognized in the game context as villains for similar reasons.

sera is super justified in killing that guy and if you're mad at it you should reflect on the fact that you're casually conversing with a man who ordered the death of his servant in front of you

like that's probably the most justified sera is in the entire game

CaptainNemo

I needed a gnome to post. wrote: »

Inquisitor77 wrote: »

Sera as a whole would be a much more palatable character if

they just took out the whole, "Imma shoot this guy while he's talking" bits. If you're going to be that ruthless, you better have really strong convictions or a really good reasons (probably both?). She has neither. She kills people because of some vague understanding that "they do bad things" and therefore "they deserve bad things to happen to them". When asked to articulate beyond that vague statement, she reverts to angry, reactionary behavior and basically repeats herself over and over. When dealing with a specific case, she refuses to engage in a discussion of even basic context and again repeats her mantra over and over again.

Her worldview would make sense if she didn't do stuff like kill people, because not wanting to deal with the bigger picture and rushing to judgment as to whether someone is a good guy or a bad guy is basically how all of humanity operates. But taking it to the next level and straight up murdering people makes her look like this weird combination of immature and psychotic. I'm guessing it's why she rubs a lot of people the wrong way and why the assumption seems to be that she's "not all there".

If they wanted to write a child-like psychotic, then they totally succeeded. Otherwise, I'm really not sure what they were going for with the murderbro bits.

And yes, plenty of nobles and people in power behave similarly. The difference here is that they are widely recognized in the game context as villains for similar reasons.

sera is super justified in killing that guy and if you're mad at it you should reflect on the fact that you're casually conversing with a man who ordered the death of his servant in front of you

like that's probably the most justified sera is in the entire game

Yeah, that guy deserved everything he got.

Inquisitor77

He's not the only one.

Recall your first time meeting her. Consider that she straight up admits it's a pretty regular occurrence. Then weight that against her reasoning as to when it's appropriate to do so.

It all comes together to paint a very disturbing picture.

CaptainNemo

As opposed to the Inquisitor, the eternal pacifist.

Mild Confusion

To me, it's not a matter of if the nobles deserve what the Red Jennies do, so much as if Sera takes responsibility for when the Jennies act, but shit goes tits up even though she is the one that recommends the mission.

She doesn't.

Blackjack

Dragkonias wrote: »

As far as Sera goes I actually find her identity issues much more interesting than her anarchic streak.

She reminds me of quite a few people I've come across. I actually think some of the things I saw were pretty interesting and I wonder whether or not they were done on purpose.

Yeah. Probably my favorite Sera plot moment in the game is when

You first get to Skyhold and you talk to her.

Sera: Andraste, what'd I step into?
Inquisitor: Let me know what she says, I could use some answers.
Sera: It's swearing, not praying. It's not like she answers. (small pout) Not like she's s'posed to.

jdarksun

Mild Confusion wrote: »

To me, it's not a matter of if the nobles deserve what the Red Jennies do, so much as if Sera takes responsibility for when the Jennies act, but shit goes tits up even though she is the one that recommends the mission.

She doesn't.

It's a decentralized network of individuals working anonymously together towards the general concept of justice for the little guy. Since anyone can ask that a Jennie do a thing, and the Jennie can decide whether to do a thing or not, the person making the suggestion doesn't bear sole responsibility.

You make it seem like she's a general giving orders. She's not. She's a whisper in a scullery maid's ear. It's like trying to pin the actions of 4Chan on a person who said "hey, wouldn't it be funny if?" All the participants bear some of the blame, and unlike internet mob justice, at least Sera's intentions are in the right place.

override367

Sera definitely doesn't lack respect for the inquisition or whatever because of the pranks

if anything her dialogue during the pranks shows that she respects them more than almost anyone by ensuring that the pranks were harmless and stopping you when

you mention Leliana's private chest

jdarksun wrote: »

Mild Confusion wrote: »

To me, it's not a matter of if the nobles deserve what the Red Jennies do, so much as if Sera takes responsibility for when the Jennies act, but shit goes tits up even though she is the one that recommends the mission.

She doesn't.

It's a decentralized network of individuals working anonymously together towards the general concept of justice for the little guy. Since anyone can ask that a Jennie do a thing, and the Jennie can decide whether to do a thing or not, the person making the suggestion doesn't bear sole responsibility.

You make it seem like she's a general giving orders. She's not. She's a whisper in a scullery maid's ear. It's like trying to pin the actions of 4Chan on a person who said "hey, wouldn't it be funny if?" All the participants bear some of the blame, and unlike internet mob justice, at least Sera's intentions are in the right place.

imo 100% of the blame is on the noble overreacting and going on a murder spree, since it seems clear that is unusual and clearly not what Sera expects to happen

and yea the maid probably has a better idea than the jennies what reaction their lord would have to hearing them talking shit, it's not like the jennies make anyone do anything

Mild Confusion

jdarksun wrote: »

Mild Confusion wrote: »

To me, it's not a matter of if the nobles deserve what the Red Jennies do, so much as if Sera takes responsibility for when the Jennies act, but shit goes tits up even though she is the one that recommends the mission.

She doesn't.

It's a decentralized network of individuals working anonymously together towards the general concept of justice for the little guy. Since anyone can ask that a Jennie do a thing, and the Jennie can decide whether to do a thing or not, the person making the suggestion doesn't bear sole responsibility.

You make it seem like she's a general giving orders. She's not. She's a whisper in a scullery maid's ear. It's like trying to pin the actions of 4Chan on a person who said "hey, wouldn't it be funny if?" All the participants bear some of the blame, and unlike internet mob justice, at least Sera's intentions are in the right place.

Except all the Jenny missions are through a liaison, which is Sera.

If Sera wasn't there coordinating with the Inquisition and the Jennies, then nothing would have happened for good or ill. Which still means that if shit goes tits up, Sera still was one of those whom contributed. As much as Leliana or Cullen or Josephine or the Inquisitor.

So I ask this: If Sera wasn't there as coordinator between the Jennies and the Inquisition, would they still have been at risk from their noble's repercussions?

Again: I'm not arguing if the Jennies deserved it or if the nobles were justified in their abuses. I'm asking if Sera ever takes any responsibility for goading the Jennies to action and if they would have even done so without her presence. And the answer is no.

Dracomicron

People just don't like the fact that Sera gets a Renegade Interrupt and the Inquisitor doesn't.

You get plenty of warning that she's going to gank the guy, and nobody has even suggested that he doesn't deserve it. Suggesting that she's responsible for the whole mess demonstrates a lack of understanding of what the Red Jennies are, a decentralized grassroots movement designed to balance the playing field against the rich and powerful. It's like saying that the Occupy movement was somehow responsible for Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's plan to plant agent provocateurs in the ranks of the protesters. Yes, it would only be possible if Occupy kept protesting, but to suggest that they were at fault is silly.

Mild Confusion

This is what I'm saying:

If Sera takes action that risks peoples lives -no matter the cause- and those people die. She is responsible for their lives.

If Sera refuses the responsibility for the lives that were lost, then she is no different than the nobles she opposes.

Fondor_Yards

So how does a waterfall put out a veilfire torch, when it's not actually fire and just the memory of one?

I needed anime to post.

water remembers

Melkster

Question: Does one's chosen background have much to do with the plot of the game?

I played through the beginning part of the game as an Elf, Dwarf, and Human, and they all played out exactly the same... Even though I was a spy as an Elf or Dwarf, but invited guest as a Human.

Unlucky

Melkster wrote: »

Question: Does one's chosen background have much to do with the plot of the game?

I played through the beginning part of the game as an Elf, Dwarf, and Human, and they all played out exactly the same... Even though I was a spy as an Elf or Dwarf, but invited guest as a Human.

I wondered the same thing. Sort of. Like yes it influences, minorly, a few story missions, how people talk to you but it doesn't change the plot. It's sort of a side-thing. I just finished the game as a Dwarf and was quite pleased with how they interpreted it.

Basically, there is no real incorrect choice. Just based on the previous games expect people to reply differently as you'd expect.

override367

Melkster wrote: »

Question: Does one's chosen background have much to do with the plot of the game?

I played through the beginning part of the game as an Elf, Dwarf, and Human, and they all played out exactly the same... Even though I was a spy as an Elf or Dwarf, but invited guest as a Human.

theres lots of specific dialogue

it has no effect on the narrative but it does add flavor

Mild Confusion

Dude, Blackwall and the dog story...

Blackjack

I really dislike Blackwall but I really like why I dislike Blackwall so, overall, A+ Bioware.

Dracomicron

I needed a gnome to post. wrote: »

water remembers

More accurately, the veilfire remembers.

Also it allows the great line while exploring an abandoned temple:

Inquisitor wrote:

...and the torch goes out.

Dracomicron

Mild Confusion wrote: »

This is what I'm saying:

If Sera takes action that risks peoples lives -no matter the cause- and those people die. She is responsible for their lives.

If Sera refuses the responsibility for the lives that were lost, then she is no different than the nobles she opposes.

She didn't risk their lives. That's the point of the Jennies... everyone does a small thing that doesn't risk much, of their own free will.

She didn't take action, the various Jenny informants did. She just picked up the ball and ran with it. There was no way of knowing that this job, in particular, had already gone wrong.

Sera did take responsibility.

I mean, she murders the dude that did it, or will if not stopped, right? The desire to murder someone who did something bad is the cause of 80% of Dragon Age adventures.

Sera is not Red Jenny. Probably. There is no Red Jenny. Probably. She's not the leader and isn't directly culpable for anything other than her own, personal actions.

override367

Yea I'm not really sure why Sera is responsible, she didn't order anyone to do shit, the only way she's responsible is that her organization even exists and leads to the little people whispering to undermine their masters

but her organization predates her, and even calling it an organization isn't right, they have no ranks or recruitment centers or anything

TOGSolid

This thread confuses the shit out of me.

Anarchistic streak?
Against the status quo?

Are we playing the same fucking game?

Sera doesn't hate power because fuck the police down with the man etc. She hates assholes that think they're better than everyone else and treat the people around them like shit due to that entitled attitude. This is a really clear trait of hers that is brought up frequently and is directly tied to gaining/losing approval with her. She doesn't want to bring down anything, she just has it in for complete dirtbags. If you're a rich person who treats their servants great and is a pretty upstanding person in the community Sera would have zero problems with you and would probably arrange for a basket of brownies to be left at your door.

They'd be hearts that also look like butts but they'd be delicious.

jdarksun wrote: »

Mild Confusion wrote: »

To me, it's not a matter of if the nobles deserve what the Red Jennies do, so much as if Sera takes responsibility for when the Jennies act, but shit goes tits up even though she is the one that recommends the mission.

She doesn't.

It's a decentralized network of individuals working anonymously together towards the general concept of justice for the little guy. Since anyone can ask that a Jennie do a thing, and the Jennie can decide whether to do a thing or not, the person making the suggestion doesn't bear sole responsibility.

You make it seem like she's a general giving orders. She's not. She's a whisper in a scullery maid's ear. It's like trying to pin the actions of 4Chan on a person who said "hey, wouldn't it be funny if?" All the participants bear some of the blame, and unlike internet mob justice, at least Sera's intentions are in the right place.

I don't doubt in the slightest that the Red Jennies were originally conceived as the Dragon Age version of Anonymous (the ones that crash websites for political reasons and try to organize protests that is). Once you frame them and Sera in particular in that context everything makes a hell of a lot more sense.

If Sera wasn't there coordinating with the Inquisition and the Jennies, then nothing would have happened for good or ill.

This hypothetical is bogus because someone else would be doing what Sera is doing if she wasn't there and if she hadn't joined the Inquisition she'd still be out there doing her schtick anyway. The Jennies would find some other way to disrupt things. A little laxative in the punch slipped in by a servant will go a long way. That's how organizations like Anon and the Jennies work.

Inquisitor77

Just to clarify, I don't think Mild Confusion and I are arguing the same thing. I'm saying that Sera was poorly designed, both in terms of the mechanics of her special event and in terms of her characterization. He's saying that, as a character, she is a terrible person.

Mild Confusion

Oh?

So if Sera didn't give the mission to Leliana then those Jennies would have still died?

Is that how it works?

Sera is totally blameless, she gets a total pass even though it she chose to give those names to Leliana. It wasn't Sera, it was the noble that was a pratt. It wasn't Sera, it was Leliana that give the report to the Inquisitor. It wasn't Sera, it was the Inquisitor that decided to have the Jennies do their mission.

Sera has none of the responsibility to her charges. Amirite? It's not like she sought out the Inquisition, it was the other way around, right? Sera never wanted to use the Jennies on a larger scale, it was the others that tricked her into writing butts on all the reports to the war council.

BULLSHIT.

Sera is not to blame for any bad that visits the Jennies, but she sure as fuck has some responsibility. She sought out the Inquisition. She gave the intelligence. She wanted the missions done to help the little guy. Yet she wants to be absolved of any responsibility to those whom gave her information on the pratts.

Bubby

Replaying Origins. With some texture mods it actually holds up really well, Inquisition has far better models and animation but aside from that it's not as big a gap as I remembered.

Yougottawanna

Sera's quest:

Part of the disagreement here I think is that the dialog options you had don't give you a "let's be more careful next time" option. There's just one option where you say "that was fun," and another where you chew her out in kind of a judgmental way.

I also don't think she has a problem with the concept of authority itself. You can ask her about the Inquisition's leaders and she says mostly positive things about them. She's not reflexively against everyone in charge, just suspicious of them.

Fencingsax

Mild Confusion wrote: »

Oh?

So if Sera didn't give the mission to Leliana then those Jennies would have still died?

Is that how it works?

Sera is totally blameless, she gets a total pass even though it she chose to give those names to Leliana. It wasn't Sera, it was the noble that was a pratt. It wasn't Sera, it was Leliana that give the report to the Inquisitor. It wasn't Sera, it was the Inquisitor that decided to have the Jennies do their mission.

Sera has none of the responsibility to her charges. Amirite? It's not like she sought out the Inquisition, it was the other way around, right? Sera never wanted to use the Jennies on a larger scale, it was the others that tricked her into writing butts on all the reports to the war council.

BULLSHIT.

Sera is not to blame for any bad that visits the Jennies, but she sure as fuck has some responsibility. She sought out the Inquisition. She gave the intelligence. She wanted the missions done to help the little guy. Yet she wants to be absolved of any responsibility to those whom gave her information on the pratts.

She's as much to blame as the Inquisitor is for all the lives lost at Haven.

Docken

So can someone explain to me something I don't think I caught the resolution before - when Fiona first approaches the Inquisitor and asks for assistance...

then when you go to Redcliffe and actually meet her, she is adamant that she never was in Val Royeux and had never met the Inquisitor before.

Was that cleared up?? Always thought something sinister was at play but never saw anything...

Etiowsa

Docken wrote: »

So can someone explain to me something I don't think I caught the resolution before - when Fiona first approaches the Inquisitor and asks for assistance...

then when you go to Redcliffe and actually meet her, she is adamant that she never was in Val Royeux and had never met the Inquisitor before.

Was that cleared up?? Always thought something sinister was at play but never saw anything...

Alexius fucked with time to get to Redcliffe before the inquisition and enslave the mages there. In the new timeline Fiona never went to Val Royeaux.

Dracomicron

Mild Confusion wrote: »

Oh?

So if Sera didn't give the mission to Leliana then those Jennies would have still died?

Is that how it works?

Sera is totally blameless, she gets a total pass even though it she chose to give those names to Leliana. It wasn't Sera, it was the noble that was a pratt. It wasn't Sera, it was Leliana that give the report to the Inquisitor. It wasn't Sera, it was the Inquisitor that decided to have the Jennies do their mission.

Sera has none of the responsibility to her charges. Amirite? It's not like she sought out the Inquisition, it was the other way around, right? Sera never wanted to use the Jennies on a larger scale, it was the others that tricked her into writing butts on all the reports to the war council.

BULLSHIT.

Sera is not to blame for any bad that visits the Jennies, but she sure as fuck has some responsibility. She sought out the Inquisition. She gave the intelligence. She wanted the missions done to help the little guy. Yet she wants to be absolved of any responsibility to those whom gave her information on the pratts.

Let's not get goosey about this. I'm honestly not sure what kind of responsibility Sera has here, beyond what she actually does.

Someone murdered her informant, and she tries to kill him right back.

And yeah, those informants may well still have died even if Sera had never gotten involved. That noble knew about Red Jenny and was itching for a reason to take a crack at her. He also treated his servants like crap in general, was my read, so those servants were in trouble anyway (presumably why they put the word out to http://redJenny.net/Sera).

Again, Sera isn't Red Jenny. She's not even a leader (Maker help us if she were). She's just a dirty work endpoint for Red Jenny's information. She's taking information that's out there and putting it to use. She didn't lean on the informants or cajole them into taking larger risks than they were comfortable with, I don't think.

Fondor_Yards

I like that Dagna wears full plate armour while doing her research.

Mild Confusion wrote: »

Dude, Blackwall and the dog story...

"Huh I don't remember a dog story...oh Oh... oh."

Spoit

Bubby wrote: »

Replaying Origins. With some texture mods it actually holds up really well, Inquisition has far better models and animation but aside from that it's not as big a gap as I remembered.

Honestly, it might just be the art style, but I think that origin's graphics holds up a lot better than DA2's

Shadowhope

Regarding Sera's quest:

I think that it smacks of victim blaming to put the blame for the servant's deaths on anyone but the noble.

If you take Sera to be an authority figure, I think that you're incorrect, but for the sake of this I'll go with it. As an authority figure, Sera essentially becomes the police. The police (Sera) recieve an anonymous tip about people being abused, and orders an investigation. When the investigation turns up evidence, they move in to arrest the person.

Upon arriving on the scene, the police find that the suspect has murdered all of the people who brought the matter to police attention. That's not on the heads of the police.

credeiki

Sorry to briefly change topics, but is there a way to preview what armor upgrades will look like in multiplayer?

Man, I do not understand the character preferences of a lot of this thread. I liked and romanced Sera; I also liked Anders and what he did. *shrug*

override367

I don't think you can preview armor in multiplayer?

Spoit wrote: »

Bubby wrote: »

Replaying Origins. With some texture mods it actually holds up really well, Inquisition has far better models and animation but aside from that it's not as big a gap as I remembered.

Honestly, it might just be the art style, but I think that origin's graphics holds up a lot better than DA2's

DA2 has better animations but it has this kind of like... forgive me I'm not an art guy, pastel look? It's kind of washed out and things like blood and fire to me look really bad in it

TOGSolid

I didn't see this posted and that's a fucking crime against humanity. Miracle of Sound did a song for this game and it's pretty awesome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MVqdYcbDp8

The fun part is that it calls back to the song he did for Dragon Age 2.

HappylilElf

Shadowhope wrote: »

Regarding Sera's quest:

I think that it smacks of victim blaming to put the blame for the servant's deaths on anyone but the noble.

If you take Sera to be an authority figure, I think that you're incorrect, but for the sake of this I'll go with it. As an authority figure, Sera essentially becomes the police. The police (Sera) recieve an anonymous tip about people being abused, and investigate. When the investigation turns up evidence, they move in to arrest the person.

Upon arriving on the scene, the police find that the suspect has murdered all of the people who brought the matter to police attention. That's not on the heads of the police.

Just finished this quest

Only complaint was I couldn't finish interrogating the jackass before Sera killed him.

Actually two complaints: I couldn't finish interrogating him and then kill him jointly with Sera.

override367

TOGSolid wrote: »

I didn't see this posted and that's a fucking crime against humanity. Miracle of Sound did a song for this game and it's pretty awesome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MVqdYcbDp8

The fun part is that it calls back to the song he did for Dragon Age 2.

huh I'd never heard these guys before, this is really good

I fucking love their Witcher 3 one too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0trGRJs_IU

looking at the graphics in that game I'm glad I picked up a 970 when I could