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Vaccination:Clark County Washington, Failing the rest of the state Since Inception
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Nobody moves a goalpost quite like an antivaxxer.
I do not trust SKFM's gut feeling on how long children can wait to be vaccinated.
And you also talk about this as if the vaccination guidelines are made up arbitrarily, on the fly. I guarantee you a significant amount of study was done before recommending a specific vaccine at a specific time. Are those times universally good for every child, of course not, but I would be willing to bet you anything that it was selected to maximize benefit and reduce risk as much as possible.
WHY DID I JUST WAKE UP IN MY NEIGHBOURS YARD
Steam: adamjnet
You don't placate them by indulging their unfounded concerns, because all that does is add credence to the false impression that a real danger exists and spacing out the schedule is safer.
Tomorrow: "They agreed that it's safer to wait a little longer, clearly there's something to our beliefs, or they wouldn't have agreed to it!"
Feeding people's unfounded concerns legitimizes them, which literally does more harm than good (both in their further decreased trust in the system/science, and leaving children unprotected for longer than necessary).
Q: "What is the harm?"
A: "The child becomes a potential disease vector, thereby potentially endangering themselves and others for no tangible public benefit. Assuaging irrational concerns in a possibly self-fulfilling manner is, full stop, counter productive."
Whether or not a child is vaccinated and what that timeframe is should be based on working with a trained medical professional, not gut feeling and truthiness.
No, that is exactly what you are saying.
"Real consideration" was put in to the schedule when it was created. "Real consideration" was put in to it when it was peer reviewed by other doctors/scientists. Anyone doubting that isn't looking for "real consideration. They're looking for an excuse.
I'm sure there is a specific estimate of number of dead babies per additional year of delay somewhere, I might try to track it down later.
Woops guess we waited to long my bad
The only time my wife heard her boss drop an f-bomb was when she was talking to him about anti-vaccers. He is a top rheumatologist that runs a research unit at one of the best research universities in the world.
I will comfortably accept any arguments from authority on the topic he may make.
When you personally know the people setting these standards, the ones who did the reawarch and peer review, you really realize the people calling them quacks really don't deserve any credit as should have their ridiculous beliefs mocked mercilessly.
The bolded part is the key thing though. They don't "want science" they wan't science that supports what they already believe.
The universe would collapse in on itself.
I was browsing the "vaccine" tag on imgur and remember one image where a woman said "Nothing you can show me will ever change my mind." So, there's an answer
To be fair to modern medicine, a lot of medical schools are requiring medical students to take more laboratory science courses, work on research projects led by MD/PhDs and learn to practice "evidence-based" medicine. The fact that this is both necessary and still somewhat controversial with practicing doctors is an indictment of the previous state of medical education.
And, if you get the School of Medicine faculty alone, they'll tell you that the reason universities are pushing this so hard is that they are tired of seeing their alumni backing junk science.
It was a goddamn awful idea. Polio has killed more people than bin Laden could ever have dreamed of, and we had it nearly extinct.
The cost for vaccination has risen immensely and even countries that are stable and growing economically are getting into trouble paying for them.
This massive increase is partially due to many new vaccines, but even if you compare the 6 earliest vaccines you are looking at a 600% increase in cost over the last 15 years.
Thanks a lot assholes.
So why should we meet them with respect and consideration and accommodate their beliefs this time?
There hasn't been a naturally occurring case of US polio since 1979, and even with the recent setbacks polio's global footprint was far larger through most of that time than it is now.
I, for one, have had several of my co-workers relate to me things their doctors told them that you can discredit with a quick check at Snopes. It's also not very reassuring that the medical community is increasingly questioning whether or not saturated fats cause heart disease when it was taken for granted for decades.
It really is strange how pervasive certain public misconceptions about health are. For example, more people are apparently frightened by aspartame or brominated vegetable oil in sodas than they are the 40+ grams of sugar in a serving of non-diet pop.
Also consider that, in the US, thimerosal started to be removed in 1999, as part of a nationwide review of mercury exposure from all sources. This was before the Wakefield study was thoroughly debunked, long before the Geiers started doing the talk show circuit, before Jenny McCarthy got in on the action, and before most of the huge meta-analyses establishing the lack of a link between autism and vaccines.
At the time, given what was known then, removing thimerosal was a reasonable precaution. The risk was very low, but it wasn't zero. The maneuver wasn't merely appeasing whackjobs.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Are there a lot of people in here who believe "so long as you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about?" I didn't think so, but maybe I was wrong. My greatest fear is someone deciding they don't like me, or don't like or misunderstand something I did or said to my kids and deciding that they need to get CPS involved. And then it isn't about the law, it isn't about freedom, it isn't about parenting philosophies or the government, it becomes making sure that you stay on the good side of someone who doesn't know you, making sure you don't piss them off or do anything wrong and hoping you don't have some personal, legal parenting practices that they don't happen to like or your kids are gone and you've got to get a lawyer and spend maybe months getting them back. You cooperate, and you say whatever they want you to say and do whatever they want you to do, no matter if you don't agree with it or they shouldn't be doing it or it's humiliating to have to go to parenting classes or whatever they make you do because they have a gun to your head called taking your kids.
I cannot imagine mandatory vaccination will be a thing that happens. A much worse disease than measles is going to have to come back before that happens. They have mandated vaccination for years in the form of requiring them to attend public school, and even then they have always had a religious exemption. I can't imagine them ever being able to successfully do a blanket mandate for all, with no exemptions whatsoever except medical necessity. This is about what you can and cannot do with your own children and people would fight it and they would win. Because it will never become law, it seems more practical to me to figure out how we can increase compliance with the recommendations voluntarily. As has been mentioned, there has been some element of distrust in immunizations since the very beginning, but it waxes and wanes. We just need to make it wane again.
But please understand that these people who choose not to vaccinate their children for whatever reason love their children and are trying to do what they think is best for them, and whatever it is you're doing - venting? - you're basically wishing for the second worst thing in the world to happen to them. I know you believe what's at stake is the worst thing in the world happening, but you know, these anti-vax people aren't saying "boy, I hope I cause some people's kids to die today." Nobody wants any kids to die. This is a complicated issue. I've been trying to figure out if the 1976 swine flu immunization program was mandatory or if they were just strongly urging everyone to get vaccinated and were immunizing everyone on the government's tab. Does anyone know? But if you're not familiar with the program, it is regarded as a disaster. I recommend reading up on it. I've seen mention of the CIA messing with immunization programs in other countries and damaging the trust people there had in the WHO. Why is it not also a priority to have the trust of our own people? No, instead we just advocate rounding them all up and ripping their kids out of their arms. Sheesh.
Wii: 4521 1146 5179 1333 Pearl: 3394 4642 8367 HG: 1849 3913 3132
I don't need to understand these people or give a moments thought to whether they love their children. I understand the history of vaccination and the dangers of uncontrolled communicable diseases. I, quite literally, could not give a fuck what goes through the heads of people who do not vaccinate their children.
This is not about them and their special feelings. It is about the children they put in danger by their ignorance. Fuck them. Bring the boot down hard before they start a pandemic.
The same could be said of somebody who puts a baby in a microwave to warm him up on a cold day.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Dozens of innocent children that were visiting Disney Land, a place that children universally adore, are now at risk of contracting a disease that can disable them for the rest of their lives because of a group of parents that care more about their supposed instincts as a parent than actual evidence. They should feel horrible and we as a society should make sure they understand the severe consequence of their selfish actions.
A situation which may both kill your kids and other people's kids is a higher standard than CPS normally operates on. I'm a big believer it balancing risk vs. other benefits, but unsupervised bomb making (for fun, not for intentionally malicious terrorism), which you allow the kids to bring said bombs to school, perhaps not such a good idea.
Honestly, the easier way to do it would be to just have jabs at school. Actually having people lose custody would take a Christmas miracle, because too many stupid parents who get their kids raped in the most obvious possible way to get a kid raped retain custody to worry about parents who are less terrible than that.
Very few abusers, including those who kill their kids, claim they didn't love them. Their claims they love their kids, despite endangering them, mean nothing. Besides, it is a public safety issue. Even if I were to be so cruel as to let them kill their kids, I am far too selfish to allow them to kill me or my family.
I didn't realize it was kosher on these boards to essentially wish death or other trauma on people who disagree with you. I was trying to demonstrate that, for those of us who actually have children, the threat of dealing with CPS is a serious thing and should not be taken lightly. We should try to keep this in mind instead of (to paraphrase) saying nothing because I was not an anti-vaxxer because we hope someone will stand up when they come for us.
What about what I said about gaining the trust of our own citizens, the same way that we root for the WHO and various foundations to go in and vaccinate children in other countries for polio and various other diseases? Or do you also encourage armed forces to go into African villages and vaccinate and medicate children by force?
I sincerely hope you are never within spitting distance of a position of authority on public policy.
Wii: 4521 1146 5179 1333 Pearl: 3394 4642 8367 HG: 1849 3913 3132
I would contend that innocent children contracting deadly but preventable diseases is also not something to take lightly.
Every reasonable, and even a few unreasonable, accommodations have been made for parents with concerns about vaccines and now that accomidation is coming back to hurt people who did the right thing.
This isn't some philosophical debate with people I don't agree with. As I said, I could give a fuck about what is inside their heads. It's the microbes in their children's bodies that I worry about.
I actually am quite often in spitting distance of people with authority in public health. I work with them. They are furious at the anti-vaccination movement, because they have the mathematical knowledge of how many children will die because of these beliefs.
And that's what this conversation is about. A small group of hardened ideologues are going to cause other people's children to die. That's not an exaggeration. That's not hyperbole. It's simply what will happen. Slow, painful death for innocent children that is 100 percent avoidable.
There are additional complications regarding international law, colonialism, and diplomacy in your example. But if we were talking domestically, we did once have armed men go door to door to forcibly vaccinate people against smallpox.
I do not advocate forced vaccinations at this time - however, neither do I find the prospect intrinsically horrifying.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
FWIW, as I mentioned, while smallpox is worse than any other communicable disease, we absolutely used force, not just police but actual military force, to vaccinate everyone regardless of their wishes. And the last case of smallpox was in 1978. It is nearly certain that no human will ever again get smallpox.
There are multiple other diseases in the world today that would either be entirely eradicated, or nearly so, if it weren't for people refusing vaccination. People who don't get these vaccinations are not only harming people today, they are harming people decades, or god forbid, centuries from now.
To me, preventing an evil from being vanquished from the entire rest of human existence is both totally incomprehensible, and exceedingly wicked.