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On Future Proxies
Happendy
Seattle, WARegistered User regular
Seattle, WARegistered User regular
in Pinny Arcade
After proxying for PAX south and seeing the discussions about future proxies and whether they would impact the activity of pin trading in the long run, I felt it was important to gather everyone's thoughts and voice my own concerns and experiences.
I recognized the demand for a proxy, and I remembered something Robert said at one point.
"We could either increase supply with more PAXes... Or decrease demand by making PAX suck"
While the latter isn't a really good option for PAX. It is , I think, a valid option for the proxy. We could make the option of using the proxy less desirable and I plan on doing this at Prime if I do decide to do this again.
How would I do this? Well this brings up something a friend of mine said to me at PAX.
"Happendy, I get that you want to help people... But you're just TOO DAMNED NICE"
I thought about moving forward making the 10% tax I had in place mandatory. Possibly increasing it. I wanted to donate all 10% of it to child's play, but my friend insisted that I need to have something in it for me besides recognition(I seem to be somewhat more popular) so I'll take a couple shots, maybe cough medicine and call it good.
Trading is a really fun activity, but after @PedroAsani gave me a bunch of AUS sets for me to face value to enforcers, I was disappointed to see their trade value go down somewhat. I fully expect this to hoppen with the South pinnys to a slightly larger effect. People that I could have traded my south sets for now have no interest in any of my south pins except the time sink ones. Pinnypals seem to only have trade offers for ugins, emberjaws and state of decays.
I walked away with over 400 dollars of donations to child's play (HOLY FUCKING SHIT GUYS) and a handful of Merch pins, but I feel like I decreased the trade value of pins for myself and for everyone else at South. I feel like I got the better end of the deal compared to everyone else. If I was a south attendee looking at myself with a bunch of Merch pins and celebrity status, I would feel cheated honestly.
I learned a lot from this South proxy, and if I decide to do this again at Prime, I'm sure there would not be nearly as many bumps. I would let my banks know in advance what the hell I was doing, PayPal would be discouraged more openly and I have mostly figured out Google spreadsheets. It would be extremely easy with even just one helper, and the reward to me would be more tangible.
But for me, I feel like I would be cheating everyone at the current PAX by proxying, and cheating the people I proxy for if I increase the mandatory donation.
Just my $0.02. What do you guys think?
I recognized the demand for a proxy, and I remembered something Robert said at one point.
"We could either increase supply with more PAXes... Or decrease demand by making PAX suck"
While the latter isn't a really good option for PAX. It is , I think, a valid option for the proxy. We could make the option of using the proxy less desirable and I plan on doing this at Prime if I do decide to do this again.
How would I do this? Well this brings up something a friend of mine said to me at PAX.
"Happendy, I get that you want to help people... But you're just TOO DAMNED NICE"
I thought about moving forward making the 10% tax I had in place mandatory. Possibly increasing it. I wanted to donate all 10% of it to child's play, but my friend insisted that I need to have something in it for me besides recognition(I seem to be somewhat more popular) so I'll take a couple shots, maybe cough medicine and call it good.
Trading is a really fun activity, but after @PedroAsani gave me a bunch of AUS sets for me to face value to enforcers, I was disappointed to see their trade value go down somewhat. I fully expect this to hoppen with the South pinnys to a slightly larger effect. People that I could have traded my south sets for now have no interest in any of my south pins except the time sink ones. Pinnypals seem to only have trade offers for ugins, emberjaws and state of decays.
I walked away with over 400 dollars of donations to child's play (HOLY FUCKING SHIT GUYS) and a handful of Merch pins, but I feel like I decreased the trade value of pins for myself and for everyone else at South. I feel like I got the better end of the deal compared to everyone else. If I was a south attendee looking at myself with a bunch of Merch pins and celebrity status, I would feel cheated honestly.
I learned a lot from this South proxy, and if I decide to do this again at Prime, I'm sure there would not be nearly as many bumps. I would let my banks know in advance what the hell I was doing, PayPal would be discouraged more openly and I have mostly figured out Google spreadsheets. It would be extremely easy with even just one helper, and the reward to me would be more tangible.
But for me, I feel like I would be cheating everyone at the current PAX by proxying, and cheating the people I proxy for if I increase the mandatory donation.
Just my $0.02. What do you guys think?
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A mandatory donation that the proxy keeps for themselves, is just reselling pins. Even without a fee the proxy system is technically reselling pins, just with zero markup and a donation of time and energy on the part of the proxy to do the legwork and take the risk. I personally don't have any problem with people reselling pins (on eBay, thepintrader, private cash deals etc.) but the danger here is that the way it is presented seems to give it the "official seal" of the forums.
What if someone else decides to start a competing proxy that charges less than the first person to volunteer? Will they each have their own thread? If the customer service is bad for one of the proxies do they get their forums account banned? Is there any protection against the proxy just taking off with several thousand dollars they collected from forum people who thought they were getting involved in a semi-official operation?
Like I said, I have no problem at all with the selling of pins in secondary markets -- but I do think that it should be kept separate from these forums.
As for the "cheating" questions -- I can't see how anyone is getting cheated in any scenario, unless their money is being stolen or they are given some kind of bait and switch on the terms of the proxy agreement.
I can't see how anyone at South was cheated out of any kind of value. Any human being could go in and buy as many show sets as they wanted -- you don't even need a badge to get to the merch booth area -- at pretty much any time during the weekend. Proxy or no proxy, those sets just aren't going to be worth that much in trade, excluding the initial spike from people who just cannot wait even a week to get hold of them. Look at the Prime 2014 show pins now, they may as well be lookouts for how interested people are in trading for them. If a desirable item has an effectively unlimited supply, then market forces (and yes, even if you're only trading it's still a kind of market) will go to work on it until the item is roughly worth it's cost plus whatever time and trouble it takes someone to get it to you -- which is not that much in the case of these US-based show sets.
As for the people registering for the proxy being cheated -- is it cheating that McDonalds charges you more than the cost of raw processed "beef" and potatoes? When you act as a proxy, you are effectively running an import/export business; buying goods in one place, moving them, and then selling them in another place. The only question is how profitable you want that business to be, which can be balanced against how much good you feel like you're doing for the community.
http://pinmash.info - Two pins enter, one pins leaves... then the other pin leaves with a lower Elo rating
You're right, 2014 East and Prime cores are pretty much fodder. Although not a lot of people had pin pals at South, so that's something that could be considered. I also have no problem with selling pins on eBay, except for the fact that those people are giving money to a middleman company that I don't particularly like (eBay is essentially PayPal(I hate PayPal)).
I don't want to feel like I'm undercutting people who sell on eBay because once again I have no problem with people who do this. Personally, I don't want to regulate this for other people, but for myself, I wouldn't ever keep more than the merch pins, and perhaps less than 5%. I feel like proxying in my case is a really good opportunity to raise 400+ dollars or even more for Child's Play. But I guess my concern here is trying to find where the moral grey area between keeping any money at all, having a mandatory donation, or inflating the mandatory donation.
You also make a good point that anything profit based shouldn't be on the forums. That's a really shady area that I really don't want to step into or encourage.
This is why the pin pals groups exist. And if someone doesn't have or want to commit to a group, I'm happy to give them an option to save as much money filling out their collection as possible.
For my part, I don't mind the proxying, but this has become collecting, not trading. There is almost no reason to get extras of anything anymore, except to hold on to really hard to find stuff or be nice to new people (which I am for).
For me the days of getting multiples of show sets or anything other than LEs that cost money are over. I'll look out for my pin pals and grind a few freebies, but keeping trade stock is pretty much pointless at this point. I'll try and hold 12-15 fodder for staff sets, and watch for new guys getting in to fill my missing needs with the earlier stuff I'm sitting on.
Proxy buying is an extension of the Pin groups. Not as consistent or reliable, not the way to be Hardcore, but an option for Enthusiasts or Filthy Casuals to keep up somewhat.
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Just one note though - can we refrain from using the term 'filthy casuals' on the forum? I understand that it is meant to be ironic and/or humorous, but to any newcomer unfamiliar with the language, it could appear as aggressive and unfriendly. I don't wish anyone to feel unwelcome here considering what lovely folks populate these Pinny forums.
For someone such as myself, the proxy system is great idea. I only recently got into Pinny Arcade following PAX AUS and the ability to get pins from the US is quite daunting when you are starting out and have little fodder. I honestly think that the interactions and offers for help on the forums are a great way to ease into the hobby.
“I let out a battle cry. Sure, a lot of people might have mistaken it for a sudden yelp of unmanly fear, but trust me. It was a battle cry.”
Or PINs, as we say.
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ps. Sorry for the long soapbox post
I was pretty sure, that any offer, or transaction, involving money, needed to stay off the forums. Forget the notion of profit, or proxy tax - if it involves money, it has to be conducted elsewhere.
Excerpt from the forum rules:
The buying or selling of PAX Passes, hotel room reservations, or anything else is expressly forbidden.
Exceptions to the above rule can be made by a moderator for community events that require monetary investment (Pre-PAX Dinner, Challenge Coins, etc). If you are unsure whether or not your event qualifies, PM a moderator FIRST. Do not post first and ask permission later.
The moderators could make this into a community event - that is up to them. But perhaps it can become a slippery slope if left unchecked, if one person is allowed to offer a service in exchange for money, what prevents anyone for selling their services as pin negotiator, or me for example to announce my products on the forums?
Because, and some of you might disagree, it's not much different from me selling the pins on my site - sure, I sell the sets for more, but I also had to pay a few thousands just to go at South and get those pins, isn't it fair for me to pass on part of that cost to those who buy pins? That's just my opinion, I sincerely don't want to hinder the efforts to get more pins into the hands of more people - and those who know me also know I'm not trying to push any agenda here. Maybe there is a better way to do this.
My two cents as it were would be that we could come with a set of standards that this act follows. For instance we set a max number of orders so that we don't overwhelm those willing to help. We could create a standard form and rates that are fair. This way it could be simply asking if anyone wants to be the person to be the proxy and people can sign up to be on that proxy's list. If there are not enough spots for the demand that is life we shouldn't expect people to do it.
No one faults anyone for covering costs or making money on pins that are sold, that is the nature of any merchandise item (I respect what the pin trader does, wish I would've thought of it first lol). But, some seek to gouge on purpose and that is not something any of us support.
Also I do not feel that setting up proxy groups is the same as selling something on the forums. We do pin pal groups on here and some of the groups exchange money for pins instead of doing a whole set for a whole set to avoid people fronting large amounts of money. We can setup the groups on here in an organized manner and leave the funding/trading to the individual proxy groups. I would never do this because I am way too busy at my PAX with pin pals already. But if I did I would simply say I can handle a number like 6 people and make a list/spreadsheet. Once I knew an assumed cost I would tell my peeps the total and time frame for buying/shipment. A system like this could be easily standardized and the connection could be made on the forums.
Anyways I could go on and on (not sure why I am so opinionated on this one), but at the end of the day I feel that our friendly awesome community could make this system easy and less taxing by working together to establish a system that benefits all involved.
p.s. - Sorry if I upset people
I also just realized that I somewhat explicitly broken some rules here... Oops?
I think it's fallacious to say that there are two options here: that we either want to share the love and make sure everybody gets the pins they need or that we want to shadily increase the value of certain pins.
I really want to maintain the trade aspect of this hobby. I met a lot of cool people this weekend and we all helped each other at some point get the pins we needed. It isn't about making the hobby more difficult to enter or inflating the prices purposely. Rather to me it's really important that the social aspect of this activity is preserved.
TL.DR I love you guys and hope to see you guys at East.
It's surprisingly difficult sometimes :biggrin: :biggrin:
I'm not quite sure how this decreases the trade value of pins overall, I mean this doesn't change the overall number printed, the supply side of the equation isn't changing. That said, if you are concerned about this, I guess you could restrict everyone to a single copy of pins, no multiples of core sets etc. That way you are helping to facilitate people completing their collections, without preventing people who actually attended the PAX from getting some more unique trade fodder.
Or, if you are feeling particularly like restricting things somewhat, only offer a set number of purchasable pins over top of the core set. e.g. 1 core set, and any three other purchasable pins of your choosing. That way you are helping casuals who cannot attend a given PAX from gaining a core set, and also letting them choose the pins they most want. The more hardcore collectors will still need to trade to get a full set.
These are just thoughts off the top of my head, only a minimal amount of thought has gone into them, feel free to rip them to shreds!
Only a mere 136 pins to go!
You are basically describing. Pin pal group. If you are going to be a proxy for a select few people we are all doing this anyways. If there are 50 people needing pins not in groups and want q proxy it is simple. That person sets a charge for doing it, being it 10-15 percent. This isn't charging for the pins, this is charging for the time and effort it takes to collect, the space in your luggage, and organizing and the time to ship them out.
I guess I don't understand why anyone would be upset at all about there being a premium to do this for people. There is a LOT of time that is involved for proxying for any number of people....especially when it is over 3-5.
Because if you are charging for it it's akin to a business. Actually, it is a de facto business. If you have a virtual tip jar with no obligation then you are doing people a favour. I'm all for the latter. Very wary of the former.
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If the proxy is considered a business just by charging, by those terms the pinny pal stamp would also fall under that umbrella. I think both are just fun community things.
Dinotimecopforce.com
But I understand where u guys are coming from either way
Tips are mandatory in the US, so I still see it as a tip jar even if it's mandatory
[X]PAXsouth 2015
[X]PAXaus 2015
[?]PAXeast 2016 ???
Well, if the Pin Pal deal is what I described, and it is already in motion, than I would like to partake. Put me in with a group and I'll get collecting!
Tips are not mandatory in the US. It is simply frowned upon if you do not tip or if you "under" tip. It's a custom that hasn't changed forever here in the states. I understand where it originally came from. Waiters and waitresses did not make enough money so it would be customary to tip them to help increase their income. Nowadays that isn't always true. Some people that work in the restaurant business make tons of money. Besides, why should you tip at a fancy restaurant and not a fast food joint? Doesn't the kid working minimum wage need the tip more than the expensive waiter? Why don't I tip the attendant that fills my gas tank or the person who bags my groceries? So not mandatory but somewhat of a cultural norm now.
Another year of Prime gone by... commence the struggle!
https://www.pinnypals.com/pals/dchoy
And how about tips? Because the idea of a tip didn't even come to my mind until somebody suggested it to me, and even at that point I directed people towards child's play.
Even at that point, some of the people who I proxy'd for insisted that I spend some of this money on myself(I have not, nor will I). I'd love to have a talk about rules because honestly it's a really fuzzy place Ive put myself into and I want to make sure I'm following all the rules.
As long as we never reach a point where proxy pin collecting overwhelms a PAX so much that it prevents actual attendees from having a reasonable shot at the pins there, it is fine. And really, the odds of that scenario ever playing out are pretty much nil.
Pins!
I agree. There is enough to go around.
There are lots of avenues for people to legitimately donate to Child's Play without "receipts of donations". If a proxy feels they need to come out ahead then I can't fathom why they would volunteer. No tips.
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"Players are artists who create their own reality within the game." - Shigeru Miyamoto
What I'm going for here is total transparency.
EDIT: I realized I wasn't clear. I volunteered for the thing form the start, and charged 10% tax because when I bought the adventure time set from we love fine, I was charged sales tax. When I got to South, I realized that sales tax wasn't an issue so instead I asked the community what to do with it at which point the three responses I got were "Alcohol" "Cough Medicine" and "Child's Play".
Corrected for maximum nom'ness!
"Damn fine pins!"
I did this at Aus, and it was a simple case of "You give me money, I buy you the Pins." Granted, there was some oddness with amounts because of exchange rates, and the local equivalent is going to be sales tax. But that is the only instance where you should be given more than the face value. And if it turned out that the sales tax doesn't apply because you are handing over cash rather than credit cards, then you donate the excess to Childs Play because refunding partials through PayPal is a God Damned Nightmare.
If you don't want to be queuing up for other people without recompense, just don't fucking do it. I've seen what it does to people who over-volunteer, and it kills something in them by Sunday. But as with everything the key is moderation. You are going to be queuing up for stuff, so why not help people out? It's a lazy form of altruism. Instead of buying 2 Sets you buy 20. It takes a little longer for the Enforcer to bag them, but you don't really care. Same at the booths where you are buying.
If Proxy Buying is going to get more complex with people asking for the Timesink Pins then I suggest they all get into Pin groups. That is what they are for.
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Disregarding the difficulty of a proxy, that is for each proxy's own decision if they do so.
I really wanted to focus on whether the proxy has any effect on the activity of trading and if we should stick to the current method of pin groups. Most people have chimed in that it probably doesn't really affect the pin trading activity as the amount of pins the proxy procures is such a small fraction. This makes me feel much more comfortable.
The tax was an idea brought up by someone else (seeing a pattern here?...) so I could cover taxes if any and donate the rest to charity. I thought that pinflation might have been a concern and thought about keeping it around as a permanent thing, but I don't think that's an issue anymore.
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Also, I wasn't aware a service fee was even a thing. The plan was cost + actual shipping and handling.
:P
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That's a good plan.
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So what if you're stuck with 2 extra sets, use them as fodder or wait 2 PAX and they'll be hot again!
Dinotimecopforce.com