[The Elder Scrolls] in which we discuss modding and murder Thalmor on sight

NFyt

Thawmus wrote: »

nexuscrawler wrote: »

Worst part of Morrowind is how awful the leveling system is

I've never played it enough to know how bad it really is. Oblivion has always kinda held that trophy for me, and I don't know if it should relinquish it to Morrowind or not.

Level scaling of the world aside, oblivion's system is more or less the same as morrowind's from what I recall. Possibly some differences in the stat gain multiplier rates.

RoyceSraphim

nexuscrawler wrote: »

Worst part of Morrowind is how awful the leveling system is

I enjoyed it more than Skyrim, but Skyrim didn't make me risk getting screwed over. Not to mention luck was a bullshit stat. Luck only belongs in Fallout games.

Shimshai

It's basically the same system for both games.

Edit: Whoops, failed to notice the new page.

Thawmus

I just really hope they don't ever take a step back from Skyrim. Steps forward, yes. Steps backward, no.

I still remember the first time I played Oblivion, and made a Face. 16 levels later, I made this face

Lucid_Seraph

I haven't played Skyrim, but I will say that yeah, Luck is a bullshit stat and I'm tempted to use the console to set it to 100 and be done with it because fuck that shit. I also hate how with Morrowind, you don't level your skills unless you succeed at doing something. I'm used to games like Fallen London, where just attempting the skill at all lets you gain levels in it, even if you fail (because hey! You learn from your mistakes, too!) Shouldn't the skill not firing be punishment enough? It's also weird how the more time I avoid "meditating on what I've learned" the more my stats go up. Like, it's to my advantage to NEVER SLEEP so that I can get that x5 to a stat.

Shimshai

The biggest mistakes I made with Morrowind and Oblivion was spending too much time trying to get those x5 modifiers for stats on levelup. The games really aren't that hard without min/maxing it, and I sucked most of the fun out by counting stat gains, and artificially restricting myself in terms of skills and weapons.

WhiteZinfandel

I just used a mod so that any multiplier turned into x5. It was cheating, sure, but I would have driven myself nuts otherwise.

Steel Angel

Shimshai wrote: »

The biggest mistakes I made with Morrowind and Oblivion was spending too much time trying to get those x5 modifiers for stats on levelup. The games really aren't that hard without min/maxing it, and I sucked most of the fun out by counting stat gains, and artificially restricting myself in terms of skills and weapons.

It was less an issue in Morrowind since the whole world didn't scale up with you.

NFyt

Steel Angel wrote: »

Shimshai wrote: »

The biggest mistakes I made with Morrowind and Oblivion was spending too much time trying to get those x5 modifiers for stats on levelup. The games really aren't that hard without min/maxing it, and I sucked most of the fun out by counting stat gains, and artificially restricting myself in terms of skills and weapons.

It was less an issue in Morrowind since the whole world didn't scale up with you.

The base game at least, from what I recall of parts of Tribunal, either that stuff scaled up or it was just meant to be absurdly tough to fight through. Possibly the same for Bloodmoon, don't really recall that one too well.

Cabezone

Useage based skill leveling systems suck in action games. I wish they would just do away with it entirely.

Thirith

I've been playing Skyrim for a couple of days now, but it took until yesterday for the game to click with me. As always in ES games, I'm playing a Khajiit rogue/thief character, and for the first couple of quests I was simply not very good at killing or even defending myself, so I usually resorted to running backwards while Sparking my foes to death. Yesterday, though, the stealth system suddenly started to fall into place, and I managed to clear out a cave by sniping from the shadows and then relocating while the bad guys searched the place where I'd previously been. I also remembered that I had that ground-level healing spell, which meant less downtime trying to recover from being cut up by bandits. Where before I felt the game was resisting me, now I'm enjoying it. Still in and around Whiterun, but I'm thinking that I should slowly move on.

McHoger

Shimshai wrote: »

The biggest mistakes I made with Morrowind and Oblivion was spending too much time trying to get those x5 modifiers for stats on levelup. The games really aren't that hard without min/maxing it, and I sucked most of the fun out by counting stat gains, and artificially restricting myself in terms of skills and weapons.

Generally this is an important thing to remember. Another thing is that leveling in Morrowind is designed with around training being available. So if you really need to get the x5 modifiers, it isn't that hard to buy training for cheap with a low level related skill.

And if worst comes to worst, there are some well designed builds out there made specifically to be balanced so you don't have to worry about leveling.

Thirith

Was levelling a thing you had to worry about all that much in Morrowind? I know that Oblivion pretty much required you to min/max if you were more into sneaky and social skills, because enemies levelled with you, but I thought you could pretty much play Morrowind without worrying all that much about the multipliers, and the result would simply be that you'd progress more slowly.

RoyceSraphim

Cabezone wrote: »

Useage based skill leveling systems suck in action games. I wish they would just do away with it entirely.

The exception to this is Mount and Blade, where archery, throwing, crossbows, and polearms are easily trained faster than everything else if you take ridicously hard chances.

Dude 10 feet away, +1 eventually.

Dude on the other side of that hill on horseback and you hit in the face from your own horse, +5.

McHoger

Does anyone know a way to check what mod is effecting an object in Morrowind? I seem to be having a problem with the top floors in the St. Olms and St. Delyn sections of Vivec. I can enter any of the homes there but if I exit I get transported into the water inside the outdoor models of the cantons.

Thawmus

Thirith wrote: »

I've been playing Skyrim for a couple of days now, but it took until yesterday for the game to click with me. As always in ES games, I'm playing a Khajiit rogue/thief character, and for the first couple of quests I was simply not very good at killing or even defending myself, so I usually resorted to running backwards while Sparking my foes to death. Yesterday, though, the stealth system suddenly started to fall into place, and I managed to clear out a cave by sniping from the shadows and then relocating while the bad guys searched the place where I'd previously been. I also remembered that I had that ground-level healing spell, which meant less downtime trying to recover from being cut up by bandits. Where before I felt the game was resisting me, now I'm enjoying it. Still in and around Whiterun, but I'm thinking that I should slowly move on.

The Bow and Sneak trees are really really good, too. You can eventually get to a point where it's a one-shot kill for most henchmen, or at the very least a very devastating opening for a boss fight.

Using a dagger is fun, too, especially once you get the Sneak perk that does 15x damage on sneak attacks with daggers. But it is really hard to pull off at low levels, so I use the bow for leveling, using a sword when things go wrong so that I can keep skilling my one-handed. Then as soon as I have the 15x perk, I start trying to get dagger ganks from that point forward.

Skilling the Illusion spells and going after Muffle and Invisibility is icing on the cake. But the Calm, Fear, and Frenzy spells are not very fetching if you aren't aware of how powerful they are. Calm is great for when they find you. Just hit them with Calm, go back to the shadows, then snipe them again (Yes, they will completely forget that you are there, and that you shot them in the head a second ago). Frenzy is great when there's a lot of them in a small area. They'll play Highlander for a while, and then you just snipe the last man standing.

nexuscrawler

For dagger users one of the best artifacts in the game is the razor

Toxic Pickle

Thirith wrote: »

I've been playing Skyrim for a couple of days now, but it took until yesterday for the game to click with me. As always in ES games, I'm playing a Khajiit rogue/thief character, and for the first couple of quests I was simply not very good at killing or even defending myself, so I usually resorted to running backwards while Sparking my foes to death. Yesterday, though, the stealth system suddenly started to fall into place, and I managed to clear out a cave by sniping from the shadows and then relocating while the bad guys searched the place where I'd previously been. I also remembered that I had that ground-level healing spell, which meant less downtime trying to recover from being cut up by bandits. Where before I felt the game was resisting me, now I'm enjoying it. Still in and around Whiterun, but I'm thinking that I should slowly move on.

Yeah in vanilla Skyrim, the stealth system does take a little while to get going, but if you stick with it becomes brutally over-powered, to the point where enemies can be standing directly in front of your crouched self and not see you. Most mods out there that deal with stealth have the purpose of making it more difficult, because it's just that OP. It is, however, also quite satisfying, especially your first time through.

McHoger

McHoger wrote: »

Does anyone know a way to check what mod is effecting an object in Morrowind? I seem to be having a problem with the top floors in the St. Olms and St. Delyn sections of Vivec. I can enter any of the homes there but if I exit I get transported into the water inside the outdoor models of the cantons.

In the name of being thorough, it was the mod Morrowind Relighted.

WotanAnubis

Every time any of Skyrim's quests sends me to some tomb filled with draugr, I remember why I still haven't finished this game yet.

Thirith

Question to the ENB pros here: in your experience, how difficult is it to de-glitch an ENB setup? I briefly tried one, but the result was that lots of textures/objects would simply not show from certain angles. I'm not sure I'd want to spend an entire day shuffling mods and modifying ini files, but if there are ENB presets that are less prone to glitches and guides that will get you through the most common problems I think I might give it another try. Right now I'm running SweetFX, but it's pretty clear that it works on the flat 2D image, and I'd prefer something that can give the image more depth.

Thawmus

WotanAnubis wrote: »

Every time any of Skyrim's quests sends me to some tomb filled with draugr, I remember why I still haven't finished this game yet.

For me it's the Falmor and everything they entail. Their dungeons are too long. The non-Dwarven ones, especially so.

At least when you fight Draugr you know there's probably another Shout at the end of the tunnel, and the tunnel doesn't go forever.

I really hate doing their dungeons when I'm level 35+, though. 4 Deathlords at the same time? Goddammit!

Toxic Pickle

I've always found Dwemer ruins to be the most annoying of all. Falmer are kinda lame because they tend to be a bit too tanky, and they can also drop down beside/behind you, but the Dwemer machines tend to be the most annoying enemies. Also, I agree that both Falmer caves and Dwemer ruins tend to go on forever and get pretty boring.

I generally don't mind Draugr-filled ruins, on the other hand, though even they start getting super annoying at higher levels.

Thawmus

Toxic Pickle wrote: »

I've always found Dwemer ruins to be the most annoying of all. Falmer are kinda lame because they tend to be a bit too tanky, and they can also drop down beside/behind you, but the Dwemer machines tend to be the most annoying enemies. Also, I agree that both Falmer caves and Dwemer ruins tend to go on forever and get pretty boring.

I generally don't mind Draugr-filled ruins, on the other hand, though even they start getting super annoying at higher levels.

Yeah, when I can carry 500 units of stuff, and am being very picky about what I pick up, and I have to drop large quantities of stuff before I reach the end of the dungeon? You've made the dungeon too damn long. That's my admittedly absurd litmus test.

I think maybe they intended for people to make return trips (Blackreach), which is fine, but not every Dwemer ruin deserves that. Like, they're well made, are very beautiful and intricate, but I'm bored now.

Regina Fong

I don't mind falmer, but I abuse the muffle spell which renders them hilariously weak.

Thawmus

Muffle, and Frenzy, for me. The one good thing I can say about them is that they're not constructs, atronachs, or undead, and they believe in that buddy system.

nexuscrawler

HLE makes falmer fighting much more fun.

Thawmus

I'm playing Skyrim on my sexbox, sadly. When I get some settlement money (hopefully soon), I'll be slapping an actual video card in my PC, and then I can futz around with getting Skyrim to run on Ubuntu 14.04.

EDIT: I have few concerns about getting it to work.

Steel Angel

I would put out that most of the Skyrim dungeons tend to not be very interesting. Most don't tell any sort of story and are just there. So fill them with one type of enemy you've seen far too much of already and it gets boring. Make that long and it gets tedious. Give some of those enemies a shout that disarms you and screw you game!

The ones that do tell a story are great. As an example, I love the Halted Stream bandit camp where you can infer that the bandits have found mammoth hunting to be a good past time but are now considering using the new transmute iron to previous metals spell to make the iron mine their source of income. It's the bandit equivalent of a get rich quick scheme sitcom episode until you come in and set them on fire and it conveys all this with just one room.

Nocren

The Dewmer ruins sometimes tell similar stories but about 90% of the burial mounds? Just holes in the ground.

nexuscrawler

I do want to find that hidden dorf city

Oh My God

Steel Angel wrote: »

I would put out that most of the Skyrim dungeons tend to not be very interesting. Most don't tell any sort of story and are just there. So fill them with one type of enemy you've seen far too much of already and it gets boring. Make that long and it gets tedious. Give some of those enemies a shout that disarms you and screw you game!

The ones that do tell a story are great. As an example, I love the Halted Stream bandit camp where you can infer that the bandits have found mammoth hunting to be a good past time but are now considering using the new transmute iron to previous metals spell to make the iron mine their source of income. It's the bandit equivalent of a get rich quick scheme sitcom episode until you come in and set them on fire and it conveys all this with just one room.

The joys of having internal narratives. The Disappearance of the Dwemer, and really everything about them, is easily my favorite portion of the world of TES. This transforms even the most objectively boring trudge through a Dwemer ruin into an expedition into the center of my interest.

Steel Angel

Oh My God wrote: »

Steel Angel wrote: »

I would put out that most of the Skyrim dungeons tend to not be very interesting. Most don't tell any sort of story and are just there. So fill them with one type of enemy you've seen far too much of already and it gets boring. Make that long and it gets tedious. Give some of those enemies a shout that disarms you and screw you game!

The ones that do tell a story are great. As an example, I love the Halted Stream bandit camp where you can infer that the bandits have found mammoth hunting to be a good past time but are now considering using the new transmute iron to previous metals spell to make the iron mine their source of income. It's the bandit equivalent of a get rich quick scheme sitcom episode until you come in and set them on fire and it conveys all this with just one room.

The joys of having internal narratives. The Disappearance of the Dwemer, and really everything about them, is easily my favorite portion of the world of TES. This transforms even the most objectively boring trudge through a Dwemer ruin into an expedition into the center of my interest.

Generally speaking, I think the most interesting dungeons are the ones used as bandit, necromancer, or vampire lairs. Those usually have some sort of story attached even if it's just "Some Forsworn thought this place seemed neat but needed more goat heads." Forts also have the benefit of often not having a single, linear path through them and side rooms that actually look like rooms.

Animal and Spriggan lairs are next. Not as interesting but often short so they don't overstay their welcome and some great scenery in some.

Dwemer and Falmer dungeons follow. There usually isn't much Dwemer lore in Skyrim and I find their constructs to not be terribly interesting opponents. Ditto Falmer after a while. But Blackreach is Dwemer and Falmer dungeons and helps redeem them. The Dwemer ruins being used as bandit lairs are also more interesting.

Burial sites are the lowest by a good margin. Draugr get old fast for so many reasons. The paths are almost always incredibly linear. Fighting off waves of draugr that pop out of their graves at set triggers is time consuming. Lots of urns to rifle through for loot instead of more centralized chests.

It's a subject that's been on my mind obviously given my previous post about finding dungeon monsters boring. I've also been replaying through Fallout: New Vegas and been consistently impressed at how many takes on ruins there are, both what went on before and what goes one among the inhabitants after the bombs fell. I hated Oblivion gates in Oblivion for multiple reasons but the daedra themselves were interesting and varied enemies to populate a dungeon with.

BionicPenguin

I forget the name, but I like that one dungeon where some bandits have set up shop, but get slaughtered by falmer who came in through a hole in the wall. It even has another group of bandits enter after you once you've dealt with the bandits and falmer in the first area. I think it might be somewhere in the Reach.

Edit: It's Liar's Retreat.

Toxic Pickle

BionicPenguin wrote: »

I forget the name, but I like that one dungeon where some bandits have set up shop, but get slaughtered by falmer who came in through a hole in the wall. It even has another group of bandits enter after you once you've dealt with the bandits and falmer in the first area. I think it might be somewhere in the Reach.

Edit: It's Liar's Retreat.

Yes I really like the setup for this dungeon, and it's one that sticks in my mind to this day. Unfortunately, once you get past that initial area and down into the tunnels from which Falmer came, it quickly devolves into the same ol' stuff. Another setting with a similarly awesome setup is Frostflow Lighthouse, which does have an actual story that's told through the journals of various family members. It also does devolve into 'yet another Falmer cave', but at least changes things up with a unique boss.

Thawmus

Oh My God wrote: »

Steel Angel wrote: »

I would put out that most of the Skyrim dungeons tend to not be very interesting. Most don't tell any sort of story and are just there. So fill them with one type of enemy you've seen far too much of already and it gets boring. Make that long and it gets tedious. Give some of those enemies a shout that disarms you and screw you game!

The ones that do tell a story are great. As an example, I love the Halted Stream bandit camp where you can infer that the bandits have found mammoth hunting to be a good past time but are now considering using the new transmute iron to previous metals spell to make the iron mine their source of income. It's the bandit equivalent of a get rich quick scheme sitcom episode until you come in and set them on fire and it conveys all this with just one room.

The joys of having internal narratives. The Disappearance of the Dwemer, and really everything about them, is easily my favorite portion of the world of TES. This transforms even the most objectively boring trudge through a Dwemer ruin into an expedition into the center of my interest.

It used to have that pull for me. Still sometimes does, when I hit one I haven't been to. If it's one I've been to, then I just cannot care anymore. And the Falmer kinda ruin the interest.

One thing I have been doing in every game is collecting all of the books I find, selling copies, keeping them in a chest, intending to sit down and read through them all. Not sure why, but I have never done it. I have rolled 9 or 10 Skyrim characters now, and have a book collection for each of them, but have never sat down and read the books.

Shimshai

When people link to an Elder Scrolls wiki, and it's not UESP, I die a little inside.

It's got everything. Including that weird ability to make you open a dozen different tabs in it when you only wanted to check one little thing.

Delduwath

Toxic Pickle wrote: »

Another setting with a similarly awesome setup is Frostflow Lighthouse, which does have an actual story that's told through the journals of various family members. It also does devolve into 'yet another Falmer cave', but at least changes things up with a unique boss.

That was actually my first encounter with the Falmer. It's probably one of the best gaming memories I had. Happened late at night, during one of those "I'll just round this corner and then go to bed" ventures. I stumbled on the lighthouse and thought "what the hell, I'll check it out". The missing people piqued my interest, but then I saw the Falmer sword lying on the floor, and just stopped and stared at it. See, I've read all the in-game literature from Morrowind on. I know who the Falmer were, I know about the theories of their disappearance, I know what that name means. Seeing this sword on the floor was like seeing a coelacanth on the floor. Obviously, sleep was out of the question; I had to investigate this.

It ended up being a complete nightmare, because I was low level at the time, and poorly-equipped. All the Chaurus just about did me in (and, also, they are hella creepy when you're half-asleep and crawling through dark, dank caves). A pretty incredible experience, overall.

(Turned me off of Falmer caves for a while, though.)

Derrick

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think there are very many (if any) dungeon areas in the game without some kind of story. Sometimes the story elements don't jump out and slap you in the face. Sometimes they do. I kind of like that. I tend to wander into a place and think "Okay, so what's happening here?" and try to work it out.

Sometimes you'll run into an area designed for a quest and you won't get much clue to the story until you have the quest. I think that's a thing. Really I've got a crazy amount of hours into the game and it's hard to remember what it was like for me when I first started playing it.

Hjorvarthr

the chaurus clicking sounds when I went into the lighthouse the first time was really freaky to me