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A Thread of a Series of a Song of Ice & Fire & Spoilers & Deviations
Blendtec
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
If you're looking for the show thread, you're in the wrong kingdom. It's here though. Anything beyond this could be spoiler territory.
The show is going to deviate more and more from the books, both in terms of completely different content, and content the books haven't gotten to yet. Please use spoiler tags where appropriate. This includes leaks from new seasons being filmed, which will almost certainly include content new to us.
Once upon a time a boy in New Jersey had some pet turtles. Unfortunately for the boy, the turtles never lived very long, so in his imagination they lived and died in a land of medieval court intrigue and war. Years later that boy would grow up, grow a beard, and write some books.
Today, his turtles live on die in the lands of Westeros and Essos in the hugely popular A Song of Ice and Fire. The series, originally planned for 7 books, has spawned 5 novels (write faster dammit!), several short stories and novellas, cookbooks, atlases, some other stuff I'm forgetting, and some TV show that no one really watches. Do not go posting spoilers, something you think is a clever hint or foreshadowing in the show thread. Book is a 4 letter word over there, so be careful about which thread you're posting in.
Taken from the last thread, thanks @Yar and @Quid.
The Major Players
Some pretty major spoilers here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbEhByk4Icg
Some actual characters.
Links
A Wiki of Ice and Fire.
Speculative Map. This is out of date given there's an actual map book, but it's still a great reference.
Game of Thrones (TV Show) Wiki.
There is a new book (not Winds unfortunately) OUT! It's an encyclopedia, A World of Ice and Fire. It's got a lot of really well done illustrations, but the writing is a bit suspect in some sections. It's also available as an iStuff and Android app. The apps are free but have in-app purchases to unlock more content.
The show is going to deviate more and more from the books, both in terms of completely different content, and content the books haven't gotten to yet. Please use spoiler tags where appropriate. This includes leaks from new seasons being filmed, which will almost certainly include content new to us.
Once upon a time a boy in New Jersey had some pet turtles. Unfortunately for the boy, the turtles never lived very long, so in his imagination they lived and died in a land of medieval court intrigue and war. Years later that boy would grow up, grow a beard, and write some books.
Today, his turtles live on die in the lands of Westeros and Essos in the hugely popular A Song of Ice and Fire. The series, originally planned for 7 books, has spawned 5 novels (write faster dammit!), several short stories and novellas, cookbooks, atlases, some other stuff I'm forgetting, and some TV show that no one really watches. Do not go posting spoilers, something you think is a clever hint or foreshadowing in the show thread. Book is a 4 letter word over there, so be careful about which thread you're posting in.
Taken from the last thread, thanks @Yar and @Quid.
#1 rule is no crying about something being spoiled, assuming it's already published material. If you haven't read all the books AND seen every aired show, then you are forbidden from accusing someone else of spoiling something for you. If you're posting an interview with GRRM where he talks about stuff that will happen in Book 6, yeah, that is the very epitome of a spoiler and must be tagged.
#2 rule, less important than #1, is to use your own best judgment and put tags around some things, like maybe details of TRW, or R+L=J theories, or major stuff from Book 5. Definitely anything about a show that hasn't aired (besides what we know from the books), or confirmed plot facts in books not yet published. Someone could very well click this thread by accident instead of the TV one, and they sure as hell don't want to see this in non-tagged form:
(major spoilers from books 3 - 5 as an example)Hey, remember when Robb and Catelyn were killed by the Freys, and Sansa married Tyrion, but then Catelyn came back as an evil zombie and Joff chokes to death and Tyrion murders his father, and Jamie sort of becomes a good guy? That was awesome.
#3 rule is to try to do what I did above and preface your spoiler tags with a very brief description of what kind of spoiler it is and about when it occurs in the series.
Like so. Seriously, if you don't want spoilers, don't read this thread. Stop right now cause below this sentence? Thar be spoilers.
The Major Players
Some pretty major spoilers here.
House Targaryen - 300 years ago the last survivors of the Doom of Valyria decided their volcanic island was boring and conquered Westeros with some dragons and incest. They ruled with varying success until one king was a little too crazy for his own good and was cast down in a rebellion led by the Starks and Baratheons. Dany is the last confirmed Targaryen, her story has yet to take her to Westeros. As of the end of book 5 someone at least claiming to be Aegon Targaryen has landed in Westeros, aiming to reclaim the throne. There's probably some other secret Targaryens or Blackfyres (an offshot), cause why not.
House Baratheon - Rulers of the Stormlands, Robert Baratheon married Cersei Lannister and took the throne following his rebellion. Now Robert and his youngest brother Renly are dead, and Robert's children aren't actually his. Stannis "the Mannis" Baratheon continues to wage a civil war for his claim to the throne in the name of R'hllor, a god from Essos. Stannis is aided by Davos Seaworth, a former pirate turned advisor, and Melisandre, a powerful priestess of R'hllor, who believes Stannis to be Azor Ahai reborn. After a failed attack on King's Landing, Stannis refocuses his efforts on winning the hearts and minds of Westeros, starting in the North.
House Stark - Everything bad happens to the Starks, lords of the North. You start reading the books and you're thinking "here's some protagonists I can really get behind!", then a bunch of them are dead and the rest are in hiding. The kidnapping and killing of some Starks led to Robert's Rebellion. Now the house is considered extinct, all its members either dead, assumed dead, unable to claim their birthright, or turning into trees. The Stark children, save Sansa, all have pet direwolves, and most of them have exhibited at least some magical powers in the form of warging. The Starks are tied via marriage to the also extinct House Tully of the Riverlands. The torture happy House Bolton has replaced the Starks as the Wardens of the North, but the North Remembers and enjoys pie.
House Lannister - These guys have their own theme song, and they really like hearing it. The Lannisters are masters of using their power and wealth to further themselves, usually at high cost to others. Tommen Lannister Baratheon is currently the King of Westeros, born of an incestuous relationship between Cersei and Jaime Lannister. Tyrion Lannister, arguably the most well known character of the series, is currently in exile in Essos for murdering his father Tywin. While most of the series chronicles their rise to power, by the end of book 5 the surviving members barely hold a rapidly crumbling kingdom. Tommen's cat is the Pounce That Was Promised.
House Greyjoy - Vikings. That's pretty much it, they raid and pillage and propel other plot elements. No godless man may sit on the Seastone Chair, except Euron, who may or may not be Daario and/or Benjen and/or a secret Targaryen. Victarion has some crazy magic sizzling bacon hand thing going on. Reek, Reek it rhymes with leek/meek/sneak/weak.
House Tyrell - Ruling house of the kingdom's breadbasket, the Tyrells want nothing more than to take the throne. Margaery Tyrell is the current queen of Westeros, and her family has shouldered much of the monumental task of rebuilding the realm following a massive civil war. They are famously loyal only to themselves and could easily change sides again as it suites them.
House Martell - Rulers of the desert of Dorne, House Martell has the most ties to House Targaryen. Throughout most of the series they are simply mentioned, but through political maneuvering and long term scheming they are quickly forcing their way into main events. House Martell is headed by Doran, seeking revenge for the deaths of his sister Ellia during Robert's Rebellion, and his brother Oberyn, both at the hands of the Lannisters. Doran's daughter Arianne, and Oberyn's daughters the Sand Snakes are the other major players. Darkstar isn't a Martell, but he is of the night.
House Arryn / Baelish - Jon Arryn fostered Robert and Ned as children, and he would be the driving force behind Robert's Rebellion. Later he served as Robert's Hand, and his death at the hands of his wife Lysa and the former Master of Coins, Littlefinger, launches the events of the books. Littlefinger is currently in control of the Vale following his own murder of Lysa. Sansa Stark is in hiding with Littlefinger, who plans to wed her to Harry "the Heir" of the Vale, the only region other than Dorne untouched by the War of the 5 Kings. Littlefinger is also Lord of the Riverlands, and there is no way his meteoric rise to power will come back to bite him.
Night's Watch - Defenders of Westeros from the mysterious and evil Others / White Walkers, the Black Brothers guard a massive ice wall far in the North. Forbidden from engaging in the affairs of the rest of the kingdom, the Watch is largely ignored by the rest of the world as most consider the Others nothing more than myth. Under the leadership of Jon Snow the Watch ended its 8000 year old conflict with the Wildings, free people north of the Wall. A popular theory sees Jon as the child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, the kidnapping/coupling that led to Robert's Rebellion. He's also probably the Prince That Was Promised and/or Azor Ahai and/or one of the heads of the dragon, but prophecies are words and words are wind and Jon ends the last book sporting some new knives in his back.
Essos - The other continent. The western portion of which is ruled by 9 powerful and always warring city states. The middle portion is controlled by the powerful Dothraki, who are basically the Mongols. There's a bunch of stuff to the far east that only gets brief mentions, and even more that is only on some maps in some sources. Dany Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister and Victarion Greyjoy are all currently in the southern Slaver's Bay, hopefully about to do something.
House Baratheon - Rulers of the Stormlands, Robert Baratheon married Cersei Lannister and took the throne following his rebellion. Now Robert and his youngest brother Renly are dead, and Robert's children aren't actually his. Stannis "the Mannis" Baratheon continues to wage a civil war for his claim to the throne in the name of R'hllor, a god from Essos. Stannis is aided by Davos Seaworth, a former pirate turned advisor, and Melisandre, a powerful priestess of R'hllor, who believes Stannis to be Azor Ahai reborn. After a failed attack on King's Landing, Stannis refocuses his efforts on winning the hearts and minds of Westeros, starting in the North.
House Stark - Everything bad happens to the Starks, lords of the North. You start reading the books and you're thinking "here's some protagonists I can really get behind!", then a bunch of them are dead and the rest are in hiding. The kidnapping and killing of some Starks led to Robert's Rebellion. Now the house is considered extinct, all its members either dead, assumed dead, unable to claim their birthright, or turning into trees. The Stark children, save Sansa, all have pet direwolves, and most of them have exhibited at least some magical powers in the form of warging. The Starks are tied via marriage to the also extinct House Tully of the Riverlands. The torture happy House Bolton has replaced the Starks as the Wardens of the North, but the North Remembers and enjoys pie.
House Lannister - These guys have their own theme song, and they really like hearing it. The Lannisters are masters of using their power and wealth to further themselves, usually at high cost to others. Tommen Lannister Baratheon is currently the King of Westeros, born of an incestuous relationship between Cersei and Jaime Lannister. Tyrion Lannister, arguably the most well known character of the series, is currently in exile in Essos for murdering his father Tywin. While most of the series chronicles their rise to power, by the end of book 5 the surviving members barely hold a rapidly crumbling kingdom. Tommen's cat is the Pounce That Was Promised.
House Greyjoy - Vikings. That's pretty much it, they raid and pillage and propel other plot elements. No godless man may sit on the Seastone Chair, except Euron, who may or may not be Daario and/or Benjen and/or a secret Targaryen. Victarion has some crazy magic sizzling bacon hand thing going on. Reek, Reek it rhymes with leek/meek/sneak/weak.
House Tyrell - Ruling house of the kingdom's breadbasket, the Tyrells want nothing more than to take the throne. Margaery Tyrell is the current queen of Westeros, and her family has shouldered much of the monumental task of rebuilding the realm following a massive civil war. They are famously loyal only to themselves and could easily change sides again as it suites them.
House Martell - Rulers of the desert of Dorne, House Martell has the most ties to House Targaryen. Throughout most of the series they are simply mentioned, but through political maneuvering and long term scheming they are quickly forcing their way into main events. House Martell is headed by Doran, seeking revenge for the deaths of his sister Ellia during Robert's Rebellion, and his brother Oberyn, both at the hands of the Lannisters. Doran's daughter Arianne, and Oberyn's daughters the Sand Snakes are the other major players. Darkstar isn't a Martell, but he is of the night.
House Arryn / Baelish - Jon Arryn fostered Robert and Ned as children, and he would be the driving force behind Robert's Rebellion. Later he served as Robert's Hand, and his death at the hands of his wife Lysa and the former Master of Coins, Littlefinger, launches the events of the books. Littlefinger is currently in control of the Vale following his own murder of Lysa. Sansa Stark is in hiding with Littlefinger, who plans to wed her to Harry "the Heir" of the Vale, the only region other than Dorne untouched by the War of the 5 Kings. Littlefinger is also Lord of the Riverlands, and there is no way his meteoric rise to power will come back to bite him.
Night's Watch - Defenders of Westeros from the mysterious and evil Others / White Walkers, the Black Brothers guard a massive ice wall far in the North. Forbidden from engaging in the affairs of the rest of the kingdom, the Watch is largely ignored by the rest of the world as most consider the Others nothing more than myth. Under the leadership of Jon Snow the Watch ended its 8000 year old conflict with the Wildings, free people north of the Wall. A popular theory sees Jon as the child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, the kidnapping/coupling that led to Robert's Rebellion. He's also probably the Prince That Was Promised and/or Azor Ahai and/or one of the heads of the dragon, but prophecies are words and words are wind and Jon ends the last book sporting some new knives in his back.
Essos - The other continent. The western portion of which is ruled by 9 powerful and always warring city states. The middle portion is controlled by the powerful Dothraki, who are basically the Mongols. There's a bunch of stuff to the far east that only gets brief mentions, and even more that is only on some maps in some sources. Dany Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister and Victarion Greyjoy are all currently in the southern Slaver's Bay, hopefully about to do something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbEhByk4IcgSome actual characters.
Links
A Wiki of Ice and Fire.
Speculative Map. This is out of date given there's an actual map book, but it's still a great reference.
Game of Thrones (TV Show) Wiki.
There is a new book (not Winds unfortunately) OUT! It's an encyclopedia, A World of Ice and Fire. It's got a lot of really well done illustrations, but the writing is a bit suspect in some sections. It's also available as an iStuff and Android app. The apps are free but have in-app purchases to unlock more content.
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Posts
Any excuse to keep using this gif. Thanks @simonwolf for the much improved version.
Those who have been lost to us…
A guy who pooped.
Batman Darkstar Cringe
The North Remembers, even if D&D don't.
Zombie
One fish
Two fish, red fish, Blackfish.
Ser Bacon Hand the Impractical
Daario Benjen Stark
Daario Again
The Pounce That Was Promised
Which probably set us up for dissapointment, but hey. That's par for the course!
We don't know that for sure that it was just for the male characters. If it does, it's stupid but just because it involves Theon and Ramsay doesn't mean it won't be used to develop Sansa's character. It's quite feasible that the focus was on Theon's face for the sake of discretion and to make sure the scene was not titillating in any way and I still think that the cliche Theon gets angry and goes hulk smash isn't a given since we have Chekov's candle, the servants, Brienne, and Pod all waiting to come up still. They COULD royally mess things up of course, but it's too early for me to judge that.
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They've shown no compunction before about being too titillating. I think it's silly to pretend the way it was shot was anything but a deliberate choice on what to emphasize.
I feel that they don't match up to the West with its money, or the Reach with its people and money, but with their mobility they would be roughly similar threats as Dorne which is so sparse and unpopulous, the North which is so big, the Vale which is just rocky and seemingly low populations, and the Riverlands which are just unremarkable.
That's not to say Dorne, The North, The Vale and the Iron Islands aren't formidable, it's just that their primary strength is in how defensible they are; which isn't generally a threatening capability.
the iron islands are a collection of dreary fishers with a handful of raiders, a threat to castles without their lords and unprotected villages
their house is long past its glory days
Point one, yeah, obviously nothing is necessary. But I think the point I was trying to make was obvious, if not:
If you're going to have rape, you better have some good narrative reasons - the threshold should be high. I've seen/read rapes scenes that I've hated, but I've seen their purpose. This one had none that hadn't already existed. The burden should be on justification, not saying why its bad, and it should have some damn good reasons.
I do feel you have a double standard. Even before that linked article, I believe it was you calling out the people saying it was not necessary for having too many reasons. Just like you having several that you feel build up to justification (even tho they were all already pre-covered by the story), the other side can too. And I don't really see any of them being contradictory.
The bolded, and variations thereof, crops up a lot. It doesn't strike me as self evident despite it often being asserted.
"If you're going to have a murder, you better have some good narrative reasons" doesn't strike me as a particularly plausible objection. Or perhaps we could say of Oberon's death, if you're going to have someone extraordinarily brutally killed, in terror, pain and gruesome detail you better have a reason...
A) so, if Winterfell resolves well, it's fine and all of this is premature.
I stand corrected. But that also draws from a much larger and more populous and prosperous area than the Iron Islands, is my point.
The Iron Isles fielding a 20k man army seems unlikely
I don't know what your point is here, as they butchered the Dorne plot, but no one is complaining that the horror of Oberon's death was unjustified as a consequence.
If your complaint is that they have shown themselves as being unable to properly handle serious issues, then this remains a problem with them and their narrative capabilities not with rape scenes qua rape scenes.
Edit: third option, my initial objection doesn't apply to you because you have a separate set of ideas and arguments.
But a 15k men 5k women, or even 12/8k, is probably more likely. Renley I can see only taking men in their prime, the Iron Islands would throw everything.
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If I came across as doing that, that was certainly not my intention. I know (and knew) that different people had different objections; some of my questions were directed at finding out precisely what about the scene the different people objected to.
The Ramsay, Theon thing was great. Heh. Ramsay's voice even in normal speaking still gives me the willies.
Spoilered for too tall:
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If you like Rose Leslie so much, why dontcha marry her and go on a honeymoon.
I've been using it 3 threads in a row now. I will gladly replace it if there's a better one though.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k