To be fair, he did fire people and say they fucked up.
Then the DNC said they couldn't have access again until they showed that they didn't still have the illicit information saved, and Sanders' campaign manager is understandably, though perhaps not reasonably, upset about that.
I think Sanders' campaign could stand to be less whiny about things and probably shouldn't jump to playing the "this game is rigged against us" card, which they seem to do an awful lot.
Hopefully Hillary shows that she can be gracious about this and doesn't write off Sanders' supporters entirely, though. She will want them to turn out for her in November 2016.
Their reaction is "Our guy made a little mistake, buuuuut...." and that's what's concerning to me.
To be fair, he did fire people and say they fucked up.
Then the DNC said they couldn't have access again until they showed that they didn't still have the illicit information saved, and Sanders' campaign manager is understandably, though perhaps not reasonably, upset about that.
I think Sanders' campaign could stand to be less whiny about things and probably shouldn't jump to playing the "this game is rigged against us" card, which they seem to do an awful lot.
Hopefully Hillary shows that she can be gracious about this and doesn't write off Sanders' supporters entirely, though. She will want them to turn out for her in November 2016.
Their reaction is "Our guy made a little mistake, buuuuut...." and that's what's concerning to me.
yes, that's a problem with their campaign for sure. they are handling it poorly perhaps. I don't see why this bars us from discussing how we think Clinton should react to it though. Discussing her strategy here is not an implicit endorsement of their narrative. At least not from me.
To be fair, he did fire people and say they fucked up.
Then the DNC said they couldn't have access again until they showed that they didn't still have the illicit information saved, and Sanders' campaign manager is understandably, though perhaps not reasonably, upset about that.
I think Sanders' campaign could stand to be less whiny about things and probably shouldn't jump to playing the "this game is rigged against us" card, which they seem to do an awful lot.
Hopefully Hillary shows that she can be gracious about this and doesn't write off Sanders' supporters entirely, though. She will want them to turn out for her in November 2016.
The campaign only fired one of the four individuals identified in the audit, and not the one who was shown to have "suppressed" private folders that data from the Clinton campaign was saved to. And the DNC has only asked for assurances that no Clinton campaign data was retained by the Sanders campaign., not for them to prove it.
And this is one of the reasons it should have never been public. People will rationalize things and this is just going to cause (more) bad feelings for some Sanders supporters, which is not really what we need.
Short term thinking and a tendency to be an asshole are basically the hallmarks of DWS.
Hopefully Clinton is smart enough to come out and say that she supports Sanders regaining access. Sanders already got a black eye from this mess, and she's crushing him in national polls so she doesn't really need the advantage. But coming out and acknowledging that a mistake was made but that she doesn't think it was done for malicious reasons may buy her the support of some of the Sanders' supporters that may have been too butt hurt to support her in the general otherwise.
I agree she absolutely has to do this and I hope it doesn't get ugly/weird at the debate tomorrow.
All of the uglyness I've seen so far on the boobs has been sanders supporters supporting whatever random bullshit comes up in their head to blame the victims of their transgression.
Right but it will absolutely be a question tomorrow unless the moderator is an idiot. I don't think she should really attack him on it. Enough damage is already done and there really isn't more to say, she can pivot to more important issues.
There absolutely are some Sanders supporters that don't currently feel great about voting for her but could be convinced after she wins the primary. I know some of them. I'm laying the seeds there. It's not worth it to alienate them and honestly this whole thing is not that important in the grand scheme of things. There's just...not a lot to talk about in the Dem primary :rotate:
I honestly think the group "sanders supporters who will not vote for Hillary in the general" is small enough to be irrelevant
And this is one of the reasons it should have never been public. People will rationalize things and this is just going to cause (more) bad feelings for some Sanders supporters, which is not really what we need.
Short term thinking and a tendency to be an asshole are basically the hallmarks of DWS.
Hopefully Clinton is smart enough to come out and say that she supports Sanders regaining access. Sanders already got a black eye from this mess, and she's crushing him in national polls so she doesn't really need the advantage. But coming out and acknowledging that a mistake was made but that she doesn't think it was done for malicious reasons may buy her the support of some of the Sanders' supporters that may have been too butt hurt to support her in the general otherwise.
I agree she absolutely has to do this and I hope it doesn't get ugly/weird at the debate tomorrow.
All of the uglyness I've seen so far on the boobs has been sanders supporters supporting whatever random bullshit comes up in their head to blame the victims of their transgression.
Right but it will absolutely be a question tomorrow unless the moderator is an idiot. I don't think she should really attack him on it. Enough damage is already done and there really isn't more to say, she can pivot to more important issues.
There absolutely are some Sanders supporters that don't currently feel great about voting for her but could be convinced after she wins the primary. I know some of them. I'm laying the seeds there. It's not worth it to alienate them and honestly this whole thing is not that important in the grand scheme of things. There's just...not a lot to talk about in the Dem primary :rotate:
I honestly think the group "sanders supporters who will not vote for Hillary in the general" is small enough to be irrelevant
Eh, these people are motivated. If you lose an opportunity to get motivated voters in your camp, maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it hurts you a lot.
I'm sure with voting records we could know more, but I would certainly not underestimate the strength Clinton could gain by treating Sanders supporters reasonably and adding their energy to her ground game.
The amount of disdain I'm getting from some of you regarding Sanders supporters, yeah, not astonishing if a bunch of them don't come out to vote for ya. It's ridiculous to see the bashing, and than in the same breath have it expressed that they should show up and support your candidate.
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
And this is one of the reasons it should have never been public. People will rationalize things and this is just going to cause (more) bad feelings for some Sanders supporters, which is not really what we need.
Short term thinking and a tendency to be an asshole are basically the hallmarks of DWS.
Hopefully Clinton is smart enough to come out and say that she supports Sanders regaining access. Sanders already got a black eye from this mess, and she's crushing him in national polls so she doesn't really need the advantage. But coming out and acknowledging that a mistake was made but that she doesn't think it was done for malicious reasons may buy her the support of some of the Sanders' supporters that may have been too butt hurt to support her in the general otherwise.
I agree she absolutely has to do this and I hope it doesn't get ugly/weird at the debate tomorrow.
All of the uglyness I've seen so far on the boobs has been sanders supporters supporting whatever random bullshit comes up in their head to blame the victims of their transgression.
Right but it will absolutely be a question tomorrow unless the moderator is an idiot. I don't think she should really attack him on it. Enough damage is already done and there really isn't more to say, she can pivot to more important issues.
There absolutely are some Sanders supporters that don't currently feel great about voting for her but could be convinced after she wins the primary. I know some of them. I'm laying the seeds there. It's not worth it to alienate them and honestly this whole thing is not that important in the grand scheme of things. There's just...not a lot to talk about in the Dem primary :rotate:
I honestly think the group "sanders supporters who will not vote for Hillary in the general" is small enough to be irrelevant
Eh, these people are motivated. If you lose an opportunity to get motivated voters in your camp, maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it hurts you a lot.
I'm sure with voting records we could know more, but I would certainly not underestimate the strength Clinton could gain by treating Sanders supporters reasonably and adding their energy to her ground game.
Damn I made her sound like a vampire though.
it just seems to me like the overlap between people who would have voted for Hillary if sanders wasn't running and people who won't vote for her if Sanders doesn't win is extraordinarily small
The amount of disdain I'm getting from some of you regarding Sanders supporters, yeah, not astonishing if a bunch of them don't come out to vote for ya. It's ridiculous to see the bashing, and than in the same breath have it expressed that they should show up and support your candidate.
Writing off the subset of Bernie supporters that are anti establishment and conspiracy minded isn't insane, and those people are the left wing version of Trump supporters. And being mad that Hillary is being attacked for Sanders mistake is reasonable.
And with that said, yes, holy shit fucking yes I want Sanders supporters to vote Hillary! I want Hillary to win! Why would I want his supporters to write him in or vote Trump?
The amount of disdain I'm getting from some of you regarding Sanders supporters, yeah, not astonishing if a bunch of them don't come out to vote for ya. It's ridiculous to see the bashing, and than in the same breath have it expressed that they should show up and support your candidate.
Forgive me if the group who have been nothing if not hostile toward my candidate of choice aren't highly regarded by me.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The amount of disdain I'm getting from some of you regarding Sanders supporters, yeah, not astonishing if a bunch of them don't come out to vote for ya. It's ridiculous to see the bashing, and than in the same breath have it expressed that they should show up and support your candidate.
I'm not going to participate in another 6 pages trying to explain how our election system works. But if you're liberal enough to be a strong Bernie supporter, you'd be a fool to make it easier for whichever monster emerges from the GOP primary to win the general.
And that's as far as I'm going to comment on this topic this time around.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
The amount of disdain I'm getting from some of you regarding Sanders supporters, yeah, not astonishing if a bunch of them don't come out to vote for ya. It's ridiculous to see the bashing, and than in the same breath have it expressed that they should show up and support your candidate.
Forgive me if the group who have been nothing if not hostile toward my candidate of choice aren't highly regarded by me.
I mean, you have been nothing but hostile to my candidate of choice, so...
Can't we just disagree without being disagreeable, as the man in the White House said?
And this is one of the reasons it should have never been public. People will rationalize things and this is just going to cause (more) bad feelings for some Sanders supporters, which is not really what we need.
Short term thinking and a tendency to be an asshole are basically the hallmarks of DWS.
Hopefully Clinton is smart enough to come out and say that she supports Sanders regaining access. Sanders already got a black eye from this mess, and she's crushing him in national polls so she doesn't really need the advantage. But coming out and acknowledging that a mistake was made but that she doesn't think it was done for malicious reasons may buy her the support of some of the Sanders' supporters that may have been too butt hurt to support her in the general otherwise.
I agree she absolutely has to do this and I hope it doesn't get ugly/weird at the debate tomorrow.
All of the uglyness I've seen so far on the boobs has been sanders supporters supporting whatever random bullshit comes up in their head to blame the victims of their transgression.
Right but it will absolutely be a question tomorrow unless the moderator is an idiot. I don't think she should really attack him on it. Enough damage is already done and there really isn't more to say, she can pivot to more important issues.
There absolutely are some Sanders supporters that don't currently feel great about voting for her but could be convinced after she wins the primary. I know some of them. I'm laying the seeds there. It's not worth it to alienate them and honestly this whole thing is not that important in the grand scheme of things. There's just...not a lot to talk about in the Dem primary :rotate:
I honestly think the group "sanders supporters who will not vote for Hillary in the general" is small enough to be irrelevant
Eh, these people are motivated. If you lose an opportunity to get motivated voters in your camp, maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it hurts you a lot.
I'm sure with voting records we could know more, but I would certainly not underestimate the strength Clinton could gain by treating Sanders supporters reasonably and adding their energy to her ground game.
Damn I made her sound like a vampire though.
it just seems to me like the overlap between people who would have voted for Hillary if sanders wasn't running and people who won't vote for her if Sanders doesn't win is extraordinarily small
Maybe, maybe not. I don't see any reason for Hillary to really harp on this whole thing other than to really stick it to Sanders.
I'm feeling really weird about this discussion though. Usually it's the pro-Hillary crowd that are talking about what's pragmatic and best politically and then when people start talking about what would be pragmatic and politically advantageous in this situation, suddenly they really just want Hillary to be able to go to town on Sanders for it, political consequences be damned.
Who is saying Hillary should go to town on Sanders? All I've said is that I find it kind of dumb Hillary did nothing wrong has done nothing wrong, and yet she is the one that has to be careful when Sanders campaign made the mistake.
I'm not saying she should hit him for this, she doesn't need to, and I doubt she will. But maybe sanders should fire Weaver who is out there saying he's going to sue the DNC and how the DNC is sandbagging sanders because they aren't ignoring his campaign's obvious miss step?
My issue is that Sanders made the mistake, yet the majority of the talk is on what Hillary should avoid so as to not offend Sanders supporters, that seems more than a little fucked up.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Who is saying Hillary should go to town on Sanders? All I've said is that I find it kind of dumb Hillary did nothing wrong has done nothing wrong, and yet she is the one that has to be careful when Sanders campaign made the mistake.
Politicians have to be careful about everything they say all the time! Even and perhaps especially when their opposition makes an error. Primary rivalries are particularly delicate because, as it has been pointed out, you are relying on the supporters of your current rival to eventually become your base. You'd better believe that if positions were reversed, we'd be talking about how the Sanders campaign should be crafting their response.
If the positions were reversed Clinton would be indicted by now.
I ate an engineer
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
Seriously, Sanders supporters won't fuck off and vote third party or not show up, they know just as well as anyone on the left what's at stake in this election.
President Ted Cruz, that's what! Or friggin TRUMP.
Who is saying Hillary should go to town on Sanders? All I've said is that I find it kind of dumb Hillary did nothing wrong has done nothing wrong, and yet she is the one that has to be careful when Sanders campaign made the mistake.
I'm not saying she should hit him for this, she doesn't need to, and I doubt she will. But maybe sanders should fire Weaver who is out there saying he's going to sue the DNC and how the DNC is sandbagging sanders because they aren't ignoring his campaign's obvious miss step?
My issue is that Sanders made the mistake, yet the majority of the talk is on what Hillary should avoid so as to not offend Sanders supporters, that seems more than a little fucked up.
All I'm saying is that I basically don't bother coming into the thread anymore because of the amount of vitriol some of you guys are painting anyone who happens to support Sanders with.
I'm not going to hold it against Clinton, but you're sure as hell holding the same actions by other people against Sanders.
Who is saying Hillary should go to town on Sanders? All I've said is that I find it kind of dumb Hillary did nothing wrong has done nothing wrong, and yet she is the one that has to be careful when Sanders campaign made the mistake.
I'm not saying she should hit him for this, she doesn't need to, and I doubt she will. But maybe sanders should fire Weaver who is out there saying he's going to sue the DNC and how the DNC is sandbagging sanders because they aren't ignoring his campaign's obvious miss step?
My issue is that Sanders made the mistake, yet the majority of the talk is on what Hillary should avoid so as to not offend Sanders supporters, that seems more than a little fucked up.
The majority of the talk here is how she can use this situation to help her get nominated and elected, I think your bringing those Gawker comments into this thread and projecting a bit.
Hillary's campaign shouldn't spend a single cent of campaign money against Sanders
its clear that she's going to win the primary at this point, and unless something changes on that end she should keep her warchest reserved for Republicans
I really doubt if positions were reversed we be talking about anything but Clinton dirty tricks campaign and how she's no better than republicans. But that's a dumb game of what if.
We have example that sanders campaign response is to fire 1 of 4 people involved in the ill deed and blame Clinton and the DNC. That's shitty politicking. Just like him bringing up the Emails again. Sanders is losing and instead of doing his best to unite the party in losing, he's trying to burn it down, maybe we should talk about why his campaign isn't helping unite the party?
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Seriously, Sanders supporters won't fuck off and vote third party or not show up, they know just as well as anyone on the left what's at stake in this election.
President Ted Cruz, that's what! Or friggin TRUMP.
Read any subreddit with Sanders supporters and you will see that for at least a vocal minority, this is not the case.
I ate an engineer
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
edited December 2015
I think the democratic primary so far has maintained a refreshingly collegial tone (at least in regard to each other) and I don't think Hillary has anything to gain by throwing that away
Shorty on
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
I really doubt if positions were reversed we be talking about anything but Clinton dirty tricks campaign and how she's no better than republicans. But that's a dumb game of what if.
We have example that sanders campaign response is to fire 1 of 4 people involved in the ill deed and blame Clinton and the DNC. That's shitty politicking. Just like him bringing up the Emails again. Sanders is losing and instead of doing his best to unite the party in losing, he's trying to burn it down, maybe we should talk about why his campaign isn't helping unite the party?
Please. The first primary election hasn't even happened yet. It's frankly crazy to suggest that the Sanders campaign should be in "unite the party" mode. That objective shouldn't even appear on his horizon until it's almost convention time.
Who is saying Hillary should go to town on Sanders? All I've said is that I find it kind of dumb Hillary did nothing wrong has done nothing wrong, and yet she is the one that has to be careful when Sanders campaign made the mistake.
I'm not saying she should hit him for this, she doesn't need to, and I doubt she will. But maybe sanders should fire Weaver who is out there saying he's going to sue the DNC and how the DNC is sandbagging sanders because they aren't ignoring his campaign's obvious miss step?
My issue is that Sanders made the mistake, yet the majority of the talk is on what Hillary should avoid so as to not offend Sanders supporters, that seems more than a little fucked up.
So we're all in agreement that Hillary should be careful in how she reacts and not go too hard at Bernie over this?
If the positions were reversed Clinton would be indicted by now.
No, she wouldn't.
Her campaign might potentially come under more scrutiny than that of the no-chance hyper liberal grandpa, but ultimately any real regulatory body for this sort of thing is completely toothless to get the candidate.
I really doubt if positions were reversed we be talking about anything but Clinton dirty tricks campaign and how she's no better than republicans. But that's a dumb game of what if.
We have example that sanders campaign response is to fire 1 of 4 people involved in the ill deed and blame Clinton and the DNC. That's shitty politicking. Just like him bringing up the Emails again. Sanders is losing and instead of doing his best to unite the party in losing, he's trying to burn it down, maybe we should talk about why his campaign isn't helping unite the party?
Please. The first primary election hasn't even happened yet. It's frankly crazy to suggest that the Sanders campaign should be in "unite the party" mode. That objective shouldn't even appear on his horizon until it's almost convention time.
Ok so why should Hillary be in unite the party mode? Good for the goose good for the gander?
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I'd be down for burning the Democratic party to ashes if the alternative weren't wanting to bring about the end times and throw brown people onto registries
the democratic party sucks, it should be our right wing party with as many corporations have fingers into it, and its all but abandoned labor
but hey, gotta go with the reality we have not the reality we want, and Sanders needs to get with the program and realize he's not going to win and take his place as the voice of the left wing to try and move the overton window (via influencing hillary's messaging)
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
I really doubt if positions were reversed we be talking about anything but Clinton dirty tricks campaign and how she's no better than republicans. But that's a dumb game of what if.
We have example that sanders campaign response is to fire 1 of 4 people involved in the ill deed and blame Clinton and the DNC. That's shitty politicking. Just like him bringing up the Emails again. Sanders is losing and instead of doing his best to unite the party in losing, he's trying to burn it down, maybe we should talk about why his campaign isn't helping unite the party?
Please. The first primary election hasn't even happened yet. It's frankly crazy to suggest that the Sanders campaign should be in "unite the party" mode. That objective shouldn't even appear on his horizon until it's almost convention time.
Ok so why should Hillary be in unite the party mode? Good for the goose good for the gander?
People aren't saying that Hillary should be in "unite the party mode" for the sake of the party. They are saying that she should not go negative against Sanders for the sake of her own general election ambitions. As the current commanding frontrunner, she is in a very different strategic position than Sanders. The Sanders campaign pretty much has to make noise just to stay in the game -- practically any publicity is good publicity. (You'd better believe this whole fracas has generated a spike in donations to his campaign.) For Clinton, the wiser move is to stay nothing and maintain the status quo, since the less things change the better for her, 'cause she's currently on track to taking the nomination. Basically, Clinton can afford to think longterm about the general election; the Sanders campaign much less so.
I really doubt if positions were reversed we be talking about anything but Clinton dirty tricks campaign and how she's no better than republicans. But that's a dumb game of what if.
We have example that sanders campaign response is to fire 1 of 4 people involved in the ill deed and blame Clinton and the DNC. That's shitty politicking. Just like him bringing up the Emails again. Sanders is losing and instead of doing his best to unite the party in losing, he's trying to burn it down, maybe we should talk about why his campaign isn't helping unite the party?
Please. The first primary election hasn't even happened yet. It's frankly crazy to suggest that the Sanders campaign should be in "unite the party" mode. That objective shouldn't even appear on his horizon until it's almost convention time.
Ok so why should Hillary be in unite the party mode? Good for the goose good for the gander?
Because she has so much to gain from it.
She does not need to, or have to or whatever.
But appearing above it all by not attacking Sanders, or even appearing to support Sanders regaining access, could be helpfull in the general, and would not hurt.
That said, Sanders is really not doing any favors for himself with shit like this.
I don't have anything against Sanders supporters, but in my case I think by being online often I am far more likely to encounter Sanders crazy minority support than HRCs. I also think pretending either side doesn't have crazy supporters is pretty unrealistic.
I ate an engineer
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
I don't have anything against Sanders supporters, but in my case I think by being online often I am far more likely to encounter Sanders crazy minority support than HRCs. I also think pretending either side doesn't have crazy supporters is pretty unrealistic.
If Hillary's position in the race were as desperate as Sanders, you would see the crazies come out in droves. See: 2008.
Edit: Also, Sanders supporters skew young. That boosts his internet presence.
I don't have anything against Sanders supporters, but in my case I think by being online often I am far more likely to encounter Sanders crazy minority support than HRCs. I also think pretending either side doesn't have crazy supporters is pretty unrealistic.
If Hillary's position in the race were as desperate as Sanders, you would see the crazies come out in droves. See: 2008.
Edit: Also, Sanders supporters skew young. That boosts his internet presence.
True, but I skew young and I'm online a lot, and I'm in Texas. I don't see crazy Hillary supporters because Hillary is literally worse than Hitler out here and they aren't on any sites I visit.
I don't have anything against Sanders supporters, but in my case I think by being online often I am far more likely to encounter Sanders crazy minority support than HRCs. I also think pretending either side doesn't have crazy supporters is pretty unrealistic.
If Hillary's position in the race were as desperate as Sanders, you would see the crazies come out in droves. See: 2008.
Edit: Also, Sanders supporters skew young. That boosts his internet presence.
True, but I skew young and I'm online a lot, and I'm in Texas. I don't see crazy Hillary supporters because Hillary is literally worse than Hitler out here and they aren't on any sites I visit.
Who is saying Hillary should go to town on Sanders? All I've said is that I find it kind of dumb Hillary did nothing wrong has done nothing wrong, and yet she is the one that has to be careful when Sanders campaign made the mistake.
I'm not saying she should hit him for this, she doesn't need to, and I doubt she will. But maybe sanders should fire Weaver who is out there saying he's going to sue the DNC and how the DNC is sandbagging sanders because they aren't ignoring his campaign's obvious miss step?
My issue is that Sanders made the mistake, yet the majority of the talk is on what Hillary should avoid so as to not offend Sanders supporters, that seems more than a little fucked up.
And most people are talking about what Hillary's response ought to be because we've all pretty much agreed that Sanders' camp fucked up. I don't know what else to say about that, personally.
Apologies about assuming you wanted Hillary to be on the offensive; I guess it just came across that way to me when people were engaging in a discussion of what move she should make from a political perspective and you seemed to disagree with that. Still, let me repeat myself: it's not Hillary's job to clean up this mess, but discussion of what her response should be and what would be most politically advantageous for her to do is well within the purview of this thread. You may not like that she has to consider how reacting to a (relatively minor) scandal on the opposition's side will affect how she's viewed, but that's not unique to Hillary. That's something every politician needs to take into account, even though Hillary does get a lot of shit she doesn't deserve.
I just had someone throw the Clinton 1975 rape case at me after I tried to disregard conspiracy theories so yeah, at least for me this is more vehement than past elections.
That's an anecdote which doesn't matter though. I've also met or talked to tons of awesome Sanders supporters!
And this is one of the reasons it should have never been public. People will rationalize things and this is just going to cause (more) bad feelings for some Sanders supporters, which is not really what we need.
Short term thinking and a tendency to be an asshole are basically the hallmarks of DWS.
Hopefully Clinton is smart enough to come out and say that she supports Sanders regaining access. Sanders already got a black eye from this mess, and she's crushing him in national polls so she doesn't really need the advantage. But coming out and acknowledging that a mistake was made but that she doesn't think it was done for malicious reasons may buy her the support of some of the Sanders' supporters that may have been too butt hurt to support her in the general otherwise.
I agree she absolutely has to do this and I hope it doesn't get ugly/weird at the debate tomorrow.
All of the uglyness I've seen so far on the boobs has been sanders supporters supporting whatever random bullshit comes up in their head to blame the victims of their transgression.
Right but it will absolutely be a question tomorrow unless the moderator is an idiot. I don't think she should really attack him on it. Enough damage is already done and there really isn't more to say, she can pivot to more important issues.
There absolutely are some Sanders supporters that don't currently feel great about voting for her but could be convinced after she wins the primary. I know some of them. I'm laying the seeds there. It's not worth it to alienate them and honestly this whole thing is not that important in the grand scheme of things. There's just...not a lot to talk about in the Dem primary :rotate:
I honestly think the group "sanders supporters who will not vote for Hillary in the general" is small enough to be irrelevant
Eh, these people are motivated. If you lose an opportunity to get motivated voters in your camp, maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it hurts you a lot.
I'm sure with voting records we could know more, but I would certainly not underestimate the strength Clinton could gain by treating Sanders supporters reasonably and adding their energy to her ground game.
Damn I made her sound like a vampire though.
it just seems to me like the overlap between people who would have voted for Hillary if sanders wasn't running and people who won't vote for her if Sanders doesn't win is extraordinarily small
Maybe, maybe not. I don't see any reason for Hillary to really harp on this whole thing other than to really stick it to Sanders.
I'm feeling really weird about this discussion though. Usually it's the pro-Hillary crowd that are talking about what's pragmatic and best politically and then when people start talking about what would be pragmatic and politically advantageous in this situation, suddenly they really just want Hillary to be able to go to town on Sanders for it, political consequences be damned.
I don't have anything against Sanders supporters, but in my case I think by being online often I am far more likely to encounter Sanders crazy minority support than HRCs. I also think pretending either side doesn't have crazy supporters is pretty unrealistic.
If Hillary's position in the race were as desperate as Sanders, you would see the crazies come out in droves. See: 2008.
Edit: Also, Sanders supporters skew young. That boosts his internet presence.
True, but I skew young and I'm online a lot, and I'm in Texas. I don't see crazy Hillary supporters because Hillary is literally worse than Hitler out here and they aren't on any sites I visit.
I just had someone throw the Clinton 1975 rape case at me after I tried to disregard conspiracy theories so yeah, at least for me this is more vehement than past elections.
That's an anecdote which doesn't matter though. I've also met or talked to tons of awesome Sanders supporters!
It's just super annoying.
This comment I saw elsewhere sums up my frustration:
However, the remarkable ability of Bernie supporters to throw shit at Hillary Clinton while at the same time demanding that Clinton supporters behave like Boy Scouts irritates me to the soul. Their whinging about this is obnoxious. The same people who happily call Clinton a corporate whore (and that’s their mildest insult) bitch and moan when somebody has any disagreement with their hero, even in the mildest parliamentary language. Either everyone refrains or everybody throws mud. The only thing turning the other cheek does in politics is to leave you with finger marks on both cheeks.
On the data breech, I don't think that Clinton should say or do anything beyond what she has. But at the same time, I find how Weaver has been trying to spin malfeasance by members of his campaign team into an attack against the Sanders campaign rather offensive. As more has come out, it's becoming clear that several members of the Sanders campaign got caught with their dick in the cookie jar.
Facing its biggest challenge of the year, Bernie Sanders’ underdog Democratic presidential campaign filed suit against the party on Friday. His top aides accused party leaders of attempting to sabotage the socialist insurgent's campaign after a breach of sensitive voter information that led Sanders to fire his national data director.
In an appearance on Bloomberg Politics With All Due Respect, Tad Devine, a long time Democratic strategist and top adviser to Sanders, accused the Democratic National Committee of "grinding our campaign to a halt" by denying access to voter files until an investigation of the breach can be completed. He said the penalty is "like giving somebody 20 years in jail for jaywalking."
The Sanders' complaint, filed in federal court in Washington, D.C. on Friday evening, sues the DNC for breach of contract, blames the DNC for negligence in the data breach and seeks damages for lost fundraising.
There's more details on the breach, however:
According to an audit obtained by Bloomberg, Sanders staffers exploited a temporary glitch in the DNC's voter database on Wednesday to save lists created by Hillary Clinton’s campaign. In response, Sanders' team fired national data director Josh Uretsky while the DNC stopped the campaign from accessing all of the DNC's data.
The database logs created by NGP VAN show that four accounts associated with the Sanders team took advantage of the Wednesday morning breach. Staffers conducted searches that would be especially advantageous to the campaign, including lists of its likeliest supporters in 10 early voting states, including Iowa and New Hampshire. Campaigns rent access to a master file of DNC voter information from the party, and update the files with their own data culled from field work and other investments.
After one Sanders account gained access to the Clinton data, the audits show, that user began sharing permissions with other Sanders users. The staffers who secured access to the Clinton data included Uretsky and his deputy, Russell Drapkin. The two other usernames that viewed Clinton information were “talani" and "csmith_bernie," created by Uretsky's account after the breach began.
The logs show that the Vermont senator’s team created at least 24 lists during the 40-minute breach, which started at 10:40 a.m., and saved those lists to their personal folders. The Sanders searches included New Hampshire lists related to likely voters, "HFA Turnout 60-100" and "HFA Support 50-100," that were conducted and saved by Uretsky. Drapkin's account searched for and saved lists including less likely Clinton voters, "HFA Support <30" in Iowa, and "HFA Turnout 30-70"' in New Hampshire.
Despite audit logs, Weaver said at the news conference that NGP VAN has told the campaign that no Clinton data was printed or downloaded.
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Their reaction is "Our guy made a little mistake, buuuuut...." and that's what's concerning to me.
yes, that's a problem with their campaign for sure. they are handling it poorly perhaps. I don't see why this bars us from discussing how we think Clinton should react to it though. Discussing her strategy here is not an implicit endorsement of their narrative. At least not from me.
The campaign only fired one of the four individuals identified in the audit, and not the one who was shown to have "suppressed" private folders that data from the Clinton campaign was saved to. And the DNC has only asked for assurances that no Clinton campaign data was retained by the Sanders campaign., not for them to prove it.
I honestly think the group "sanders supporters who will not vote for Hillary in the general" is small enough to be irrelevant
Eh, these people are motivated. If you lose an opportunity to get motivated voters in your camp, maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it hurts you a lot.
I'm sure with voting records we could know more, but I would certainly not underestimate the strength Clinton could gain by treating Sanders supporters reasonably and adding their energy to her ground game.
Damn I made her sound like a vampire though.
it just seems to me like the overlap between people who would have voted for Hillary if sanders wasn't running and people who won't vote for her if Sanders doesn't win is extraordinarily small
Writing off the subset of Bernie supporters that are anti establishment and conspiracy minded isn't insane, and those people are the left wing version of Trump supporters. And being mad that Hillary is being attacked for Sanders mistake is reasonable.
And with that said, yes, holy shit fucking yes I want Sanders supporters to vote Hillary! I want Hillary to win! Why would I want his supporters to write him in or vote Trump?
Forgive me if the group who have been nothing if not hostile toward my candidate of choice aren't highly regarded by me.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I'm not going to participate in another 6 pages trying to explain how our election system works. But if you're liberal enough to be a strong Bernie supporter, you'd be a fool to make it easier for whichever monster emerges from the GOP primary to win the general.
And that's as far as I'm going to comment on this topic this time around.
I mean, you have been nothing but hostile to my candidate of choice, so...
Can't we just disagree without being disagreeable, as the man in the White House said?
Maybe, maybe not. I don't see any reason for Hillary to really harp on this whole thing other than to really stick it to Sanders.
I'm feeling really weird about this discussion though. Usually it's the pro-Hillary crowd that are talking about what's pragmatic and best politically and then when people start talking about what would be pragmatic and politically advantageous in this situation, suddenly they really just want Hillary to be able to go to town on Sanders for it, political consequences be damned.
I'm not saying she should hit him for this, she doesn't need to, and I doubt she will. But maybe sanders should fire Weaver who is out there saying he's going to sue the DNC and how the DNC is sandbagging sanders because they aren't ignoring his campaign's obvious miss step?
My issue is that Sanders made the mistake, yet the majority of the talk is on what Hillary should avoid so as to not offend Sanders supporters, that seems more than a little fucked up.
pleasepaypreacher.net
They're not.
Furthermore given what she's weathered in her political career I can't see her doing so out of petty spite either.
Politicians have to be careful about everything they say all the time! Even and perhaps especially when their opposition makes an error. Primary rivalries are particularly delicate because, as it has been pointed out, you are relying on the supporters of your current rival to eventually become your base. You'd better believe that if positions were reversed, we'd be talking about how the Sanders campaign should be crafting their response.
President Ted Cruz, that's what! Or friggin TRUMP.
All I'm saying is that I basically don't bother coming into the thread anymore because of the amount of vitriol some of you guys are painting anyone who happens to support Sanders with.
I'm not going to hold it against Clinton, but you're sure as hell holding the same actions by other people against Sanders.
The majority of the talk here is how she can use this situation to help her get nominated and elected, I think your bringing those Gawker comments into this thread and projecting a bit.
its clear that she's going to win the primary at this point, and unless something changes on that end she should keep her warchest reserved for Republicans
We have example that sanders campaign response is to fire 1 of 4 people involved in the ill deed and blame Clinton and the DNC. That's shitty politicking. Just like him bringing up the Emails again. Sanders is losing and instead of doing his best to unite the party in losing, he's trying to burn it down, maybe we should talk about why his campaign isn't helping unite the party?
pleasepaypreacher.net
Read any subreddit with Sanders supporters and you will see that for at least a vocal minority, this is not the case.
Please. The first primary election hasn't even happened yet. It's frankly crazy to suggest that the Sanders campaign should be in "unite the party" mode. That objective shouldn't even appear on his horizon until it's almost convention time.
So we're all in agreement that Hillary should be careful in how she reacts and not go too hard at Bernie over this?
Her campaign might potentially come under more scrutiny than that of the no-chance hyper liberal grandpa, but ultimately any real regulatory body for this sort of thing is completely toothless to get the candidate.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Ok so why should Hillary be in unite the party mode? Good for the goose good for the gander?
pleasepaypreacher.net
the democratic party sucks, it should be our right wing party with as many corporations have fingers into it, and its all but abandoned labor
but hey, gotta go with the reality we have not the reality we want, and Sanders needs to get with the program and realize he's not going to win and take his place as the voice of the left wing to try and move the overton window (via influencing hillary's messaging)
People aren't saying that Hillary should be in "unite the party mode" for the sake of the party. They are saying that she should not go negative against Sanders for the sake of her own general election ambitions. As the current commanding frontrunner, she is in a very different strategic position than Sanders. The Sanders campaign pretty much has to make noise just to stay in the game -- practically any publicity is good publicity. (You'd better believe this whole fracas has generated a spike in donations to his campaign.) For Clinton, the wiser move is to stay nothing and maintain the status quo, since the less things change the better for her, 'cause she's currently on track to taking the nomination. Basically, Clinton can afford to think longterm about the general election; the Sanders campaign much less so.
She does not need to, or have to or whatever.
But appearing above it all by not attacking Sanders, or even appearing to support Sanders regaining access, could be helpfull in the general, and would not hurt.
That said, Sanders is really not doing any favors for himself with shit like this.
If Hillary's position in the race were as desperate as Sanders, you would see the crazies come out in droves. See: 2008.
Edit: Also, Sanders supporters skew young. That boosts his internet presence.
True, but I skew young and I'm online a lot, and I'm in Texas. I don't see crazy Hillary supporters because Hillary is literally worse than Hitler out here and they aren't on any sites I visit.
http://www.hillaryis44.org/
Dig through some of the archives. It's....something.
And most people are talking about what Hillary's response ought to be because we've all pretty much agreed that Sanders' camp fucked up. I don't know what else to say about that, personally.
Apologies about assuming you wanted Hillary to be on the offensive; I guess it just came across that way to me when people were engaging in a discussion of what move she should make from a political perspective and you seemed to disagree with that. Still, let me repeat myself: it's not Hillary's job to clean up this mess, but discussion of what her response should be and what would be most politically advantageous for her to do is well within the purview of this thread. You may not like that she has to consider how reacting to a (relatively minor) scandal on the opposition's side will affect how she's viewed, but that's not unique to Hillary. That's something every politician needs to take into account, even though Hillary does get a lot of shit she doesn't deserve.
That's an anecdote which doesn't matter though. I've also met or talked to tons of awesome Sanders supporters!
It's just super annoying.
No I don't! Not me! Argh
Yeah.
Not remotely representative of the average Clinton supporter, but one of the worst/best examples of toxic candidate cult on the internet.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
This comment I saw elsewhere sums up my frustration:
On the data breech, I don't think that Clinton should say or do anything beyond what she has. But at the same time, I find how Weaver has been trying to spin malfeasance by members of his campaign team into an attack against the Sanders campaign rather offensive. As more has come out, it's becoming clear that several members of the Sanders campaign got caught with their dick in the cookie jar.
There's more details on the breach, however: