suckerpunch is guilty of thinking that it's message is much more clever than it actually is (in this, it is the quintessential snyder film)
also I think the message of 'actresses are essentially forced into sexwork as opposed to intellectual roles' is undermined by how much fun everybody seems to be having in the action sequences
How a movie screws up hot women fighting giant robot samurai I don't know.
When you describe it like that, it sounds like a Japanese import game.
Whole lot of projection, assumptions and confusing writers/directors/studio heads going in here, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
What did you expect? It's not like the professionals are the only people who can have opinions on things, especially when they've obviously fucked up with a movie featuring Batman and Superman together. Hollywood is far from perfect or correct when it comes to making movies. If they knew what they were doing they wouldn't have gotten
All of Snyder's film aspire to a depth he isn't able to articulate, which he either mistakes for gloomy imagery or uses it in trying to hide his weakness as a storyteller.
The old adage about practicing law goes, "if you have the fact, pound the facts; if you have the law, pound the law; if you have neither, pound the table."
Snyder does his take on the cinematic version of this, "if you can tell a good story, tell one; if you can create engaging characters, create them; if you can do neither, at least be loud and pretentious."
Which, going back to what I said earlier, is what baffles me about the decision to hand him the keys to the kingdom. Like, are you telling me that they couldn't have shopped around for a director like Spielberg or the Guru's in the animation department to do this? You had to run with a guy who's filmography is about as upbeat and exciting as room temperature oatmeal?
He's made in clear in his career he find certain IP's beneath him, and many are genres. Transformers, for instance. Perfect Spielberg material, yet he hands it off to Michael Bay and doesn't give a shit what he does with it as long as it rakes in the big bucks. He let Jurassic Park's IP go to pieces when he left the original, too - and his company still controls it. I don't think we're going to get Spielberg anywhere near to direct a super-hero film in our life time.
If Captain 'Wild' Bill Kelso isn't a superhero, then I just don't want to live on this planet anymore.
suckerpunch is guilty of thinking that it's message is much more clever than it actually is (in this, it is the quintessential snyder film)
also I think the message of 'actresses are essentially forced into sexwork as opposed to intellectual roles' is undermined by how much fun everybody seems to be having in the action sequences
How a movie screws up hot women fighting giant robot samurai I don't know.
easy
by saying "objectifying women is wrong but also totally awesome"
Otherwise known as 'Do not enjoy this awesome thing!'
I remember when I saw the trailer for Suckerpunch and thought it looked pretty neat. Some kind of bizarre pseudo-historical ass kicking movie with some nice cheesecake to boot.
Still not sure why I never really bothered to see it. But I am sure of how grateful I am that I haven't.
Shit my brother in law worked on it as an animator, he was disappointed with it. Actually.. now that I look on his IMDB he did pre vis on Man of Steel as well.
Like the fact that Superman saves people for reasons beyond the fact that it makes him admired and worshiped.
Objectivists are against the notion that acts of charity are praiseworthy.
Also, superman saves people even when he's being condemned for it. That's one of the recurring points of the film.
The Fact that Batman fights crime beyond the idea that he is taking vengeance for his parents.
Depends on how sane the writer's conception of Batman is. Miller Batman is literally a bad day away from full regression to infanthood.
It's a popular depiction that Batman only becomes 'reasonable ' when he's surrounded by a surrogate family (for obvious reasons).
Example: The fact that when Superman saves the girl from the fire, it spends more time on him being surrounded be adoring crowds then it does on the girl herself(who we never get a good look at)
1. The crowd is relevant to highlight that Superman is an inspiring figure 'if you seek his monument you need only look around you. '
2. Again, doing something to please the crowd is anti-objectivist in a fundamental way.
3. That scene owns, everyones in day of the dead makeup and it's got this weird deathly/reverent hush as people reach out as one, encircling both Superman and the child.
The day of the dead scene was almost done well. When Superman first showed up with the girl, he was almost smiling, as if he liked helping people. Then when people started surrounding and reaching out to him, he was looking very uncomfortable, like he didn't know what to do and wanted to leave. It would have been interesting if the film had actually dealt with Superman's discomfort with all these people having so much faith in him. Not to mention the government's response to all those Superman worshippers.
I think Snyder's going to be less comfortable since the embargo on Civil War is being lifted and the comments seem to say that it is brilliant, despite how ridiculously dense with characters it is and the introduction of the new Spider-Man.
Whereas Snyder's is a trainwreck with an established Superman, a well known if newly introduced Batman, and a barely there Wonder Woman.
Watched Batman v Superman last night and thought it was acceptable, but flawed.
Thinking about my issues with it (mostly pacing) and what I actively enjoyed, I think it should have just been a Batman movie. The Batman scenes are what hold the movie together, while the Superman scenes really just undermine the idea that he might be a threat.
If we saw the events solely from the perspective of Batman, we'd actually wonder if maybe he's right.
All of Snyder's film aspire to a depth he isn't able to articulate, which he either mistakes for gloomy imagery or uses it in trying to hide his weakness as a storyteller.
The old adage about practicing law goes, "if you have the fact, pound the facts; if you have the law, pound the law; if you have neither, pound the table."
Snyder does his take on the cinematic version of this, "if you can tell a good story, tell one; if you can create engaging characters, create them; if you can do neither, at least be loud and pretentious."
Which, going back to what I said earlier, is what baffles me about the decision to hand him the keys to the kingdom. Like, are you telling me that they couldn't have shopped around for a director like Spielberg or the Guru's in the animation department to do this? You had to run with a guy who's filmography is about as upbeat and exciting as room temperature oatmeal?
Getting tentpole work in Hollywood seems to have an alarming correlation with prior success and little else
see: Colin Trevorrow and Star Wars
Which is odd because you'd figure this new, franchise-driven era of Hollywood would mean that directors would be picked for their suitability for the source material, but instead are still being chosen based on their own star-power, like an amalgam of the studio-dominated golden age and the auteur era.
The day of the dead scene was almost done well. When Superman first showed up with the girl, he was almost smiling, as if he liked helping people. Then when people started surrounding and reaching out to him, he was looking very uncomfortable, like he didn't know what to do and wanted to leave. It would have been interesting if the film had actually dealt with Superman's discomfort with all these people having so much faith in him. Not to mention the government's response to all those Superman worshippers.
Instead it lasted all of five seconds and was never mentioned again. An interesting position to put Superman in that didn't go anywhere, or delve into his thoughts on the matter. The only scene he does this with is with Lois on the balcony after the explosion, and it's nowhere near the depth the subject requires or enough insight into Superman. The movie did that a lot.
Also for a movie where they were considering explicitly showing us that Superman must choose who he responds to,
he decided that it was worth it fly to Mexico to save one girl?
Making it a bigger disaster might have been a better decision.
Haven't seen it yet, but does he just save the girl, or does he also deal with the fire?
There's an interesting... something in there, but Snyder hardly gets at it. It would take a significantly longer movie to do so. I mean, how long would it be until people just started calling Superman up for random bullshit, like they do for 911? How does Superman triage requests? Does Superman get PTSD? How does Superman handle legitimate conflicts between two parties? Wars? Complicated domestic issues? Broken justice systems? White-collar crimes? Crazed cults in his name? In a lot of ways, Watchmen's Dr Manhattan is the easy narrative way out: the answer is he doesn't care. But really, neither does Snyder's Superman; he just has the pretension of it.
Also for a movie where they were considering explicitly showing us that Superman must choose who he responds to,
he decided that it was worth it fly to Mexico to save one girl?
Making it a bigger disaster might have been a better decision.
Haven't seen it yet, but does he just save the girl, or does he also deal with the fire?
There's an interesting... something in there, but Snyder hardly gets at it. It would take a significantly longer movie to do so. I mean, how long would it be until people just started calling Superman up for random bullshit, like they do for 911? How does Superman triage requests? Does Superman get PTSD? How does Superman handle legitimate conflicts between two parties? Wars? Complicated domestic issues? Broken justice systems? White-collar crimes? Crazed cults in his name? In a lot of ways, Watchmen's Dr Manhattan is the easy narrative way out: the answer is he doesn't care. But really, neither does Snyder's Superman; he just has the pretension of it.
It'd be an intriguing movie with the right director, that's for sure. But that's a topic DC shies away from, it'd be completely in character for the Authority to struggle with issues like the above. Why isn't Snyder during an Authority movie, WB? That said, many of those things could be relevant for a typical Superman movie, how he interacts with the world is why he's interesting and how the world reacts to him. Nor is he above getting PTSD, he did get a variant of that in the 80's or 90's. He had a mental breakdown after he executed Kryptonians. Cults that worshipped him too. Lex is the perfect frame for a the broken justice system. White collar crimes aren't flashy enough to be a movie about.
Superman can't not care, that'd go against his character - and make him come off as Snyder Superman at best, or an amoral psychopath at worst. The big reason he does what he does is because he cares, having him be overly disinterested in it would turn people off, for good reasons. That's why it's best to just ignore it.
to go save the girl in Mexico vs save the family that was in the flood
, that would be an interesting thing, then use that to have people question superman, why did he save Americans over them, etc.
But that's pretty deep for Snyder.
He can't win no matter what he does, though, really.
The movie is too joyless!
Lets have THAT happen!
Can't please everyone, clearly.
It is impossible to please everyone, it is not impossible to do better than what they got. Snyder can't win because he's clueless and not as smart as he thinks he is. There's great movies buried in MoS and B vs S, and he was unable to make them.
edit: I will say Snyder would be perfect for a Batman film, with someone over his shoulder to tell no when he needs it.
to go save the girl in Mexico vs save the family that was in the flood
, that would be an interesting thing, then use that to have people question superman, why did he save Americans over them, etc.
But that's pretty deep for Snyder.
He can't win no matter what he does, though, really.
The movie is too joyless!
Lets have THAT happen!
Can't please everyone, clearly.
It is impossible to please everyone, it is not impossible to do better than what they got. Snyder can't win because he's clueless and not as smart as he thinks he is. There's great movies buried in MoS and B vs S, and he was unable to make them.
edit: I will say Snyder would be perfect for a Batman film, with someone over his shoulder to tell no when he needs it.
That person should be Affleck.
In full costume. Preferably in shadow as well.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
+8
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
to go save the girl in Mexico vs save the family that was in the flood
, that would be an interesting thing, then use that to have people question superman, why did he save Americans over them, etc.
But that's pretty deep for Snyder.
He can't win no matter what he does, though, really.
The movie is too joyless!
Lets have THAT happen!
Can't please everyone, clearly.
It is impossible to please everyone, it is not impossible to do better than what they got. Snyder can't win because he's clueless and not as smart as he thinks he is. There's great movies buried in MoS and B vs S, and he was unable to make them.
edit: I will say Snyder would be perfect for a Batman film, with someone over his shoulder to tell no when he needs it.
That person should be Affleck.
In full costume. Preferably in shadow as well.
With a branding iron.
0
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ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
So hey, saw BvS today.
I have lots of ideas for snarky critiques, and I can't choose between them. Fortunately, BvS taught me that if I have a lot of ideas, I can just cram them together in no particular order and call it good.
It was kinda butts.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
Superman vs Batman:
Better than Batman & Robin
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ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
One of the sad things about this movie is that all of the elements were there for a great film. Affleck and Irons and Gado are great. The actual broad stroke story was strong. But they were assembled so ineptly that it hurt to watch.
It's like someone gave a giant box of Legos to the special kid, and he took all of the coolest pieces and stuck them together randomly, glued everything in place with boogers, and then beat you in the face with the result for 150 minutes.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Counting only live-action Batman movies and live-action Superman movies, I'll agree to that ranking jdark.
Add in animated features, and BvS drops way down the list.
I still liked seeing the BvS and like that the movie itself exists. My single biggest problem with it is that it mostly plays out like an Elseworlds story that relies on the viewer knowing the usual way the characters are.
The movie feels like DC Comics do these days. Someone in Warner Brothers with a little savvy might have noted that since the comics line is faltering and about to rebooted, that may not have been the best model.
+5
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ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
So I went to see this movie. I expected it to be an expensive and tedious experience, but what the hell, right?
Then there was a super long line to get out of the parking garage. Then parking cost me $15 more than expected. Then there was crappy traffic because it was raining and it took forever to get home.
I can't think of a better metaphor for this movie.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
In terms of a Batman movie, I'd put it above Forever and Robin. Which means it's third from the bottom.
No one's ever done a good Superman movie, each film has pieces of Superman that works but then the rest is meh.
BVS still has the best superhero fight ever with Batman vs henchman.
So I went to see this movie. I expected it to be an expensive and tedious experience, but what the hell, right?
Then there was a super long line to get out of the parking garage. Then parking cost me $15 more than expected. Then there was crappy traffic because it was raining and it took forever to get home.
I can't think of a better metaphor for this movie.
Did you run out of gas in sight of your house, too? Would have made it a perfect match.
ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
I'm trying to think up the proper number of disjointed, semi clever posts I should barf all over this thread to illustrate what the movie was like.
I'm thinking another 163 should do.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
The movie feels like DC Comics do these days. Someone in Warner Brothers with a little savvy might have noted that since the comics line is faltering and about to rebooted, that may not have been the best model.
So much that's wrong with DC and everything non-animated in terms of presentation and transition from print to screen is the result of Diane Nelson's poor management, but she seems to keep being promoted upwards.
0
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
I like to think that
Superman shoved that spike deeper into his chest because he realized how fucking bad BvS is and was trying to nope out of the DCCU.
Can't blame him.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Snyder doesn't do much of anything interesting with the lack of joy. It is a mess that doesn't even have positivity going for it.
Like Snyder's talk about how if Superman saves a cat, people would complain about the cat not being fixed and will add to the overpopulation problem. OK, but where does he go with that? How well is that tied into the Batman v. Superman part of the Batman v. Superman movie? How does that relate to the fight after the Batman v. Superman part of the movie, which takes up a decent chunk of time? Does that tie in with Lex Luthor's motivation somehow?
I can see a Batman v. Superman movie where the idea of side effects to Superman's actions plays a really big part, especially as it should be pretty ready made to explore that with Batman and how he reacts to Superman's actions when fighting Zod, but the film mostly meanders while occasionally touching upon it in pretty ham handed ways such with Pa Kent.
It is like Snyder assumes bringing up those issues is enough to justify them as part of the movie rather than actually needing to do a good job of weaving them carefully into the narrative. The result a movie that where critics complaining that it feels both too long and too short can be correct.
Couscous on
+2
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ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
I'm trying to think up the proper number of disjointed, semi clever posts I should barf all over this thread to illustrate what the movie was like.
I'm thinking another 163 should do.
I'm genuinely curious: How many people were in the theater?
There were probably 30 people in there. Matinee on a Saturday, for context.
Several people were actively heckling the movie by the end.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
+2
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ElJeffeRoaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
In terms of a Batman movie, I'd put it above Forever and Robin. Which means it's third from the bottom.
No one's ever done a good Superman movie, each film has pieces of Superman that works but then the rest is meh.
BVS still has the best superhero fight ever with Batman vs henchman.
Yeah, Bats v henchman was fantastic. The final battle was fine, too.
The resolution of the title fight was as stupid as everyone says it was.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
That's a fairly good turnout, though I guess it depends on where you are, metro-wise.
I wonder how many people are going to see it explicitly to heckle it.
That's a fairly good turnout, though I guess it depends on where you are, metro-wise.
I wonder how many people are going to see it explicitly to heckle it.
It was a 200 seat IMAX theater in downtown Sacramento.
It was the lowest turnout I've ever seen at an IMAX by a significant margin.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Posts
When you describe it like that, it sounds like a Japanese import game.
What did you expect? It's not like the professionals are the only people who can have opinions on things, especially when they've obviously fucked up with a movie featuring Batman and Superman together. Hollywood is far from perfect or correct when it comes to making movies. If they knew what they were doing they wouldn't have gotten
If Captain 'Wild' Bill Kelso isn't a superhero, then I just don't want to live on this planet anymore.
Shit my brother in law worked on it as an animator, he was disappointed with it. Actually.. now that I look on his IMDB he did pre vis on Man of Steel as well.
Objectivists are against the notion that acts of charity are praiseworthy.
Also, superman saves people even when he's being condemned for it. That's one of the recurring points of the film.
Depends on how sane the writer's conception of Batman is. Miller Batman is literally a bad day away from full regression to infanthood.
It's a popular depiction that Batman only becomes 'reasonable ' when he's surrounded by a surrogate family (for obvious reasons).
1. The crowd is relevant to highlight that Superman is an inspiring figure 'if you seek his monument you need only look around you. '
2. Again, doing something to please the crowd is anti-objectivist in a fundamental way.
3. That scene owns, everyones in day of the dead makeup and it's got this weird deathly/reverent hush as people reach out as one, encircling both Superman and the child.
Whereas Snyder's is a trainwreck with an established Superman, a well known if newly introduced Batman, and a barely there Wonder Woman.
Thinking about my issues with it (mostly pacing) and what I actively enjoyed, I think it should have just been a Batman movie. The Batman scenes are what hold the movie together, while the Superman scenes really just undermine the idea that he might be a threat.
If we saw the events solely from the perspective of Batman, we'd actually wonder if maybe he's right.
Oh, and too many dream sequences.
Which is odd because you'd figure this new, franchise-driven era of Hollywood would mean that directors would be picked for their suitability for the source material, but instead are still being chosen based on their own star-power, like an amalgam of the studio-dominated golden age and the auteur era.
Making it a bigger disaster might have been a better decision.
Haven't seen it yet, but does he just save the girl, or does he also deal with the fire?
There's an interesting... something in there, but Snyder hardly gets at it. It would take a significantly longer movie to do so. I mean, how long would it be until people just started calling Superman up for random bullshit, like they do for 911? How does Superman triage requests? Does Superman get PTSD? How does Superman handle legitimate conflicts between two parties? Wars? Complicated domestic issues? Broken justice systems? White-collar crimes? Crazed cults in his name? In a lot of ways, Watchmen's Dr Manhattan is the easy narrative way out: the answer is he doesn't care. But really, neither does Snyder's Superman; he just has the pretension of it.
It'd be an intriguing movie with the right director, that's for sure. But that's a topic DC shies away from, it'd be completely in character for the Authority to struggle with issues like the above. Why isn't Snyder during an Authority movie, WB? That said, many of those things could be relevant for a typical Superman movie, how he interacts with the world is why he's interesting and how the world reacts to him. Nor is he above getting PTSD, he did get a variant of that in the 80's or 90's. He had a mental breakdown after he executed Kryptonians. Cults that worshipped him too. Lex is the perfect frame for a the broken justice system. White collar crimes aren't flashy enough to be a movie about.
Superman can't not care, that'd go against his character - and make him come off as Snyder Superman at best, or an amoral psychopath at worst. The big reason he does what he does is because he cares, having him be overly disinterested in it would turn people off, for good reasons. That's why it's best to just ignore it.
But that's pretty deep for Snyder.
He can't win no matter what he does, though, really.
The movie is too joyless!
Lets have THAT happen!
Can't please everyone, clearly.
It is impossible to please everyone, it is not impossible to do better than what they got. Snyder can't win because he's clueless and not as smart as he thinks he is. There's great movies buried in MoS and B vs S, and he was unable to make them.
edit: I will say Snyder would be perfect for a Batman film, with someone over his shoulder to tell no when he needs it.
That person should be Affleck.
In full costume. Preferably in shadow as well.
With a branding iron.
I have lots of ideas for snarky critiques, and I can't choose between them. Fortunately, BvS taught me that if I have a lot of ideas, I can just cram them together in no particular order and call it good.
It was kinda butts.
Better than Batman & Robin
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
It's like someone gave a giant box of Legos to the special kid, and he took all of the coolest pieces and stuck them together randomly, glued everything in place with boogers, and then beat you in the face with the result for 150 minutes.
Add in animated features, and BvS drops way down the list.
I still liked seeing the BvS and like that the movie itself exists. My single biggest problem with it is that it mostly plays out like an Elseworlds story that relies on the viewer knowing the usual way the characters are.
Then there was a super long line to get out of the parking garage. Then parking cost me $15 more than expected. Then there was crappy traffic because it was raining and it took forever to get home.
I can't think of a better metaphor for this movie.
No one's ever done a good Superman movie, each film has pieces of Superman that works but then the rest is meh.
BVS still has the best superhero fight ever with Batman vs henchman.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
I'm thinking another 163 should do.
So much that's wrong with DC and everything non-animated in terms of presentation and transition from print to screen is the result of Diane Nelson's poor management, but she seems to keep being promoted upwards.
I'm genuinely curious: How many people were in the theater?
Can't blame him.
Like Snyder's talk about how if Superman saves a cat, people would complain about the cat not being fixed and will add to the overpopulation problem. OK, but where does he go with that? How well is that tied into the Batman v. Superman part of the Batman v. Superman movie? How does that relate to the fight after the Batman v. Superman part of the movie, which takes up a decent chunk of time? Does that tie in with Lex Luthor's motivation somehow?
I can see a Batman v. Superman movie where the idea of side effects to Superman's actions plays a really big part, especially as it should be pretty ready made to explore that with Batman and how he reacts to Superman's actions when fighting Zod, but the film mostly meanders while occasionally touching upon it in pretty ham handed ways such with Pa Kent.
It is like Snyder assumes bringing up those issues is enough to justify them as part of the movie rather than actually needing to do a good job of weaving them carefully into the narrative. The result a movie that where critics complaining that it feels both too long and too short can be correct.
There were probably 30 people in there. Matinee on a Saturday, for context.
Several people were actively heckling the movie by the end.
Yeah, Bats v henchman was fantastic. The final battle was fine, too.
The resolution of the title fight was as stupid as everyone says it was.
I wonder how many people are going to see it explicitly to heckle it.
It was a 200 seat IMAX theater in downtown Sacramento.
It was the lowest turnout I've ever seen at an IMAX by a significant margin.