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People cry at my job. Like, a lot.
Alt-enfreude
Registered User new member
Registered User new member
This is an alt because I have a coworker in our midst.
Here is my thing. I work for a small company, about 20 folks in a major metropolitan area. We're a "design collective," meaning that we have an architecture department, an interior design department, and a graphics department, all doing reasonably high-profile projects for our size. Although the company is about eight years old, there is a mentality in the upper ranks that we're a startup, and therefore employees should have an all-in mentality -- working long hours, not taking a lunch, being cool with sub-standard pay and no retirement plans (even for senior staff), etc. Lower-tier employees feel that they are undervalued and underpaid. Higher-tier employees feel they have earned the rights to be silly geese.
I think most of that is pretty normal. Not ideal, maybe, but pretty normal.
What strikes me as not-normal is how interactions go here. New hires are "hazed" and asked to do things not in their field or depth of knowledge, seemingly on purpose, as if the failure is somehow intended. If there is an internal squabble, the provost will demand to see personal phone texts from employees to determine a course of action. Office hours are 9-6, but should an employee want to leave at 6pm sharp to make it to a dinner or personal event, it should be put on the company calendar as "Alt-enfreude leaves at 6pm -- inlaws dinner," else risk wrath. The provost will make secret loans to employees to accommodate property purchases nearer to the office. Employees with serious health concerns (like cancer) will have issues broadcast to the office, where senior staff will walk up and ask, "how's the hair coming?" Leave for these situations are often brushed off as gestures of kindness instead of legal requirements, and it is implied that the employee will somehow "pay back" the company. Criticisms, which are frequent in the line of work, are made personal to the point where I have seen nearly half of the staff in tears. Should mistakes happen, blame is often passed to an irrelevant or unqualified employee, and tears happen a lot here too. There is always a sense that no one is giving "enough." Our turnover rate for entry and intermediate positions is insane.
I'm in an awkward position -- I was hired at this firm a year and a half ago, and at 25, am the youngest in the company. I've escaped a lot of the poor-treatment (but not the poor pay, hours, benefits, etc.), because either I am likeable or particularly hardworking or maybe something else I am missing. Who knows. Regardless of my ability to dodge a lot of the crazy, it still creates an incredibly stressful work environment that I'm not sure is healthy or sustainable. I've stayed because I have been offered a lot of growth and ability to mess around with things that someone of my experience and age maybe would not have the opportunity to at another firm, regardless of skill or ability, but I'm starting to feel like either that is maxing out or isn't worth finding someone crying under my desk for twenty minutes a few times a week.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty sure this isn't what "office politics" really means. Is this a normal environment? I'd like to leave, but not if the trifecta of negative drama/low pay/insane work ethics are commonplace elsewhere. The devil you know, I guess.
Here is my thing. I work for a small company, about 20 folks in a major metropolitan area. We're a "design collective," meaning that we have an architecture department, an interior design department, and a graphics department, all doing reasonably high-profile projects for our size. Although the company is about eight years old, there is a mentality in the upper ranks that we're a startup, and therefore employees should have an all-in mentality -- working long hours, not taking a lunch, being cool with sub-standard pay and no retirement plans (even for senior staff), etc. Lower-tier employees feel that they are undervalued and underpaid. Higher-tier employees feel they have earned the rights to be silly geese.
I think most of that is pretty normal. Not ideal, maybe, but pretty normal.
What strikes me as not-normal is how interactions go here. New hires are "hazed" and asked to do things not in their field or depth of knowledge, seemingly on purpose, as if the failure is somehow intended. If there is an internal squabble, the provost will demand to see personal phone texts from employees to determine a course of action. Office hours are 9-6, but should an employee want to leave at 6pm sharp to make it to a dinner or personal event, it should be put on the company calendar as "Alt-enfreude leaves at 6pm -- inlaws dinner," else risk wrath. The provost will make secret loans to employees to accommodate property purchases nearer to the office. Employees with serious health concerns (like cancer) will have issues broadcast to the office, where senior staff will walk up and ask, "how's the hair coming?" Leave for these situations are often brushed off as gestures of kindness instead of legal requirements, and it is implied that the employee will somehow "pay back" the company. Criticisms, which are frequent in the line of work, are made personal to the point where I have seen nearly half of the staff in tears. Should mistakes happen, blame is often passed to an irrelevant or unqualified employee, and tears happen a lot here too. There is always a sense that no one is giving "enough." Our turnover rate for entry and intermediate positions is insane.
I'm in an awkward position -- I was hired at this firm a year and a half ago, and at 25, am the youngest in the company. I've escaped a lot of the poor-treatment (but not the poor pay, hours, benefits, etc.), because either I am likeable or particularly hardworking or maybe something else I am missing. Who knows. Regardless of my ability to dodge a lot of the crazy, it still creates an incredibly stressful work environment that I'm not sure is healthy or sustainable. I've stayed because I have been offered a lot of growth and ability to mess around with things that someone of my experience and age maybe would not have the opportunity to at another firm, regardless of skill or ability, but I'm starting to feel like either that is maxing out or isn't worth finding someone crying under my desk for twenty minutes a few times a week.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty sure this isn't what "office politics" really means. Is this a normal environment? I'd like to leave, but not if the trifecta of negative drama/low pay/insane work ethics are commonplace elsewhere. The devil you know, I guess.
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Run now.
They are not great companies and it's not good or actually normal behavior.
it sounds like you're already soured on the overall environment and aren't influential enough to really change it, so I'd probably start trying to move on from it before you get burned
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Find something else, let the previous place choke on their own incompetence. Also make a list of the best talent there, and poach them when you have some big projects coming up.
if you're not getting paid right then go somewhere else
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
This company gets grumpy if less than two-months notice is given before an employee leaves. I'm comfortable giving that, but are other companies comfortable hiring someone two months out? It seems like that would be common, given our projects take months/years to complete, but I'm curious about how I should handle that.
Also, what are some tips for kind of sniffing this out in the future? Preferably before I take an offer somewhere. I feel like there should be some questions I could ask in an interview that might raise some red flags if the environment is particularly negative.
As far as identifying this stuff... diversity of leadership is important.
I believe that one of the reasons that design companies skew heavily toward this type of authoritarian shit is that they tend to be founded and run by one or few guys who've known each other for years and heavily consolidate control so they basically can do whatever they want, and they exert their authority not just in keeping the business alive, but in every minute detail of daily operations
Seeing that a company like that has high ranking, powerful people from "outside the company" is generally a good sign.
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
Honestly, I take a good long look at how they terminate people when I decide what kind of "notice" is fair. Especially if they're one of those companies where you give your two weeks and they immediately terminate you. Fuck that shit, you get a letter on my way out the door if that's your policy.
Whether the company that hires you is okay with that really depends on if they are hiring you to replace an employee that has already left, or just one that they know is going to leave/retire in the future. For my current job they waited about that long for me as I was relocating from the other side of the country and I was filling a new position, but if they were hiring me to replace someone, they would probably have been in a little more of a rush to get me here.
More to the point though, why do you care if they get grouchy if you don't give 2 months notice? You're leaving. Give the acceptable 2 weeks notice just so you can say you did should it ever come up in future job interviews and so it doesn't look bad to your new company and get out.
I've been told my current employer has a habit of straight up telling people to go ahead and leave now when they give a notice, so you bet your ass I'm giving them just the two weeks even if I know months ahead of time.
To put this in perspective, I've worked at this company for a decade.
I'm not even going to give them 2 months. And I'm basically senior management.
I'll give them a month if they're lucky.
So unless you've got a contract of some sort requiring 2 months notice, fuck em, give them 2 weeks if you want too. Call them and tell them you aren't going to come back ever if they are jerks.
they aren't entitled to two weeks, at-will employment cuts both ways
personally, I don't think you have an ethical obligation to give notice unless your employment contract gives you severance should you be terminated for any reason
it's a bullshit notion that you should be obliged to give to them what they won't give to you in return
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
But, assume they'll fire you right away.
That is, if the company is as petty as you say, they might just fire you the same day you give notice. So make sure you can pack up everything personal into one box, make sure nothing important is in your work email or on your work computer. If you need something important from the office, work email, or work computer, pull it off before hand.
Also, try as hard as possible to find a new job before giving notice. Life is much easier when you can quit with a new job offer already in hand.
Bullshit as it may be, it looks a lot better to future employers if you do (including the new one you hopefully already have before giving the notice).
It's about professionalism. Even if they couldn't find it in their shoe, that doesn't mean you should stoop to their level. Legally and generally - you're absolutely correct, but when you walk out of an explosion, it's cooler to do it slowly and never look back rather than running screaming.
If there's a legal or contractual requirement, stick to it so you can't get sued. Beyond that is demands placed on you by a job you no longer want or need.
These are not specific to you. These are just good life lessons for everyone. And everyone always thinks there's an exception, but ultimately most people learn these things through hard lessons.
People don't always love everything they do, but for many a good working environment more than makes up for missing access to fun tech.
Also as a mod here, just FYI, I think you probably give more than enough info in your OP to identify you if a coworker and fellow forumer were to stumble across this. You might want to consider editing out any extraneous detail whatsoever.
Like it was said before, Run, and don't look back like it was Sodom and doing so would turn you into salt like Lot's wife. That is got to be one of the most toxic work places I've ever heard of.
And by "find", we mean "have a contract signed and in your physical possession". Verbals offers are meaningless.
Never burn bridges unless you have to. If you do, even with a toxic workplace, you could eventually be in the place where around your industry/area there are rumors or reputations around you based on that, as if you haven't worked in that place you don't know how bad it is. Reputation management is a thing, especially in consulting and design.
I would recommend giving them the two weeks notice if possible, though. That's pretty standard in a lot of professional fields and even if your bosses don't deserve it (they don't), it makes you look like a professional who takes their job and their work relationships/obligations seriously. You don't want to get a reputation as flighty or unserious, especially at 25 and in a creative field. You want to come out of this looking better than they do in your retelling of your work history there.
At 25, I can appreciate a lack of experience to drawn upon as to whether or not this is 'normal' office politics. It isn't. It's not even close to an average office, but like you, I've been in the exact same position. It was a small start up, the CEO was a tyrant and Very Bad Person, and it was an unhealthy place to be and work. I don't miss it, even though I needed a job badly, and sorely missed a steady paycheck. Like me, you'll hit a threshold of unsustainable behaviors - and the calculus you do in your head will tell you how much longer you can endure.
I can't tell you when you'll hit that peak (if ever), but I can tell you this: No job, at all, is worth the decline of your sanity or health. If you find yourself affected in those ways, then plan your egress out. Have a plan, stick to it, and commit. Don't let them burn your candle at both ends. I assure you, they absolutely will use and consume you as an asset, and dispense with you when convenient to do so.
sometimes longer notice is a contractual term in a key role
But I've never heard of it for anyone who still has supervision that can do this kind of thing to them
I host a podcast about movies.
Buy this textbook and get out of there.
This book should be undergrad curriculum for all IT students.
Give the notice period detailed in your contract.
I'm from the UK so the standard notice period is 4 weeks.
If you only have to contractually give 2 weeks notice (that time frame has been mentioned a lot) do that.
No less
No more.
if they fire you....well you have a job lined up.
Because DO NOT hand in your notice until you have a new job with signed contract and start date.
Edit: Most people in the US do not have explicit contracts but just assumed ones based on state laws. To my knowledge, no state has a required notice period. Typically the only hold an employer has for most employees to give notice is tradition and maybe pay out of remaining vacation time.
I missed this OP - my bad.
First, and foremost, you absolutely must have an offer letter in your hands, signed, from the new company who hires you. I'm not sure where you live, or your countries applicable laws, however, in the U.S. an offer letter is considered proof in the event of harm for a employer reneging an on offer letter (see Promissory Estoppel, a fancy legal term). So until you have something along those lines, do not issue notice to your company.
Until then, hold your cards close to the vest. Divulge to no one you are seeking employment elsewhere. You gain absolutely nothing, and risk being summarily terminated for 'reasons'. At this point, if you are committed to leaving, divulging anything at all is a pointless risk. Conduct your interviews, get your offer letter, and then here's the tricky part: If you need 4 weeks, explain you need 4 weeks to give notice. Usually, this is negotiable, and if they want you as an employee, will probably agree. It's honestly not uncommon. You need to communicate that clearly, upon accepting the offer, as it will often be reflected on your offer letter (a start date), and it needs to absolutely be accurate. When in hand, issue notice, and prepare for a summary sacking - make sure your finances can handle a gap of pay, just in case. It's a dick move, but honestly, your company sounds like a bunch of dicks are running it.
As for sniffing this out in the future, do your homework. Google is your friend. Look up any legal action they've incurred, and the manner of those cases and how they were settled. During the interview process, ask about turnover rate, ratio of new hires and diversity, and ask to speak to a peer that you will be working with. Focus less on the perks, and more upon the smiles you see on faces, the atmosphere encouraged, and the hopefully frank and private discussions you can have with those who work there.
I'd be interested in seeing what others say, but that's my best advice OP.
Two weeks is considered professional, but it's entirely to the benefit of the employer, not contractually obligated, and in plenty of cases you'll be fired on the spot for giving two weeks notice.
If you're living paycheck to paycheck and can't afford to miss one, I wouldn't fault you for giving no notice at all. It's not ideal, but then again we've established that the company is run by some honking geese, so nothing about the situation is ideal anyway.
You can't give someone a pirate ship in one game, and then take it back in the next game. It's rude.
What the fuck. That's the craziest fucking thing I've ever read, even beyond the insanity you posted in the original post.
2 months? On principle I'd #1 get a new job, #2 stay until you get your last paycheck/direct deposit, and #3 give them zero notice. Hell, email your boss at 8:59 on Monday saying "I quit" with nothing in the email body. Grumpy if they don't get 2 months notice from you? Holy shit, I'm offended on your behalf.
I feel that "won't allow oneself to be enslaved by a garbage company" is an OK reputation to have. Certainly, leaving a company employing these tactics can be sufficiently explained to any new potential employers and any new potential employers that think you owe a company like this more than napalm isn't worth working for either.
Sometimes it's OK to burn bridges.
I think "unprofessional and immature" is probably what would actually stick if word got out, especially if he did the whole subject-only email thing you recommended.
I'd give two weeks notice unless the new company strongly asked you to switch immediately. Two weeks gives you time to train someone else to take on your duties and wrap up loose ends. Even if you don't care about the company or its management, it can make life easier for your coworkers who are still there, and you never know when a good impression might come in handy.
I agree about telling them the day after a paycheck clears, though.
also try to use/cash out any PTO that you may have
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Bloody hell. That is just.....awful.
I would still recommend you give some notice when you have a new job to go to. Unless your new job gives you a really quick start date.
Worst case the current job fire you.
Run away. Run away fast. You're working for a place that will likely make a couple of people rich while fucking everybody else.
Here's the thing - only those inside a company know how bad it is, others just see the outside reputation. Toxic environments can easily be spun as "high performers only", and those that are STILL in the company often have to psychologically justify their own staying, so they'll tear you down instead.
Remember that reputation is all about perceptions, not all the realities, and while you could explain and justify one on one every time someone asked, if you have basically an entire company crapping on you, they'll likely win out (as unprofessional as it is).
The reality is that 2 weeks screws them almost as hard, as you generally have few responsibilities during that period and I'm guessing they're crappy at transitioning if the rest of the place is a dumpster fire. Screwing over the company may feel good at the outset, but could do damage long term for not much payoff, especially since you can just mail it in the last 2 weeks and they can't really do anything.