It's not like these people have been there for thousands of years, though. How old would the oldest colony be? 50 years maybe? They weren't being moved from their sacred lands, it's closer to Jewish settlements being removed from the west bank.
Say you've been living in the same house for the last 30 years. Say you spent the last 30 years cultivating and farming the land. Say you had spent decades prior searching for just the right place to live. You've had children and developed a strong community. All of a sudden the US government comes along and says they've given your entire community, the only place your children have ever known to North Korea in an attempt to stop a full scale war. IDK about you but I for one would be pretty hesitant to leave. Someone less reasonable than me might just fight back.
Space Magic doesn't negate the personal attachment to a place. Moving fucking sucks. It sucks to just move from one house to another in the same city. Moving your entire community across the god damned galaxy would weigh on one harder.
Then use space magic and transport your house, garden and neighborhood off the planet and over to a new planet.
I get what they try to portray with the Marquis and the parallels with our history of forced resettlement but in a post scarcity society where anything you want can be practically materialized out of nothing it falls flat.
Why?
You still haven't actually explained why being sort-of post-scarcity means suddenly forced relocation becomes ok.
Not "OK" but a necessary evil when looking at the grand scheme of things. You have what.. a few thousand colonists compared to the entire federation. They were given a choice to be relocated. In a post scarcity society that has transporter and replicator technology that doesn't have the same impact. Instead of leaving the home you build with your own two hands it gets beamed off planet along with all your belongings. The attachment to the land itself is still there but considering the other is living under Cardassian rule, the guys who because of bad intel laid waste to a colony without any qualms. Lots of these colonies were still pretty damn new, 20 years for the folks on Doran V, Setlik III was an outpost shortly before the Massacre (again according to Memory Alpha or at least what I can find about it) I cant find info on these colonists being there for generations, if there is planets where that was the case then I'd agree with you.
We can move houses right now. Have been able to for ages. It doesn't change anything.
Name a forced resettlement that happened in earth history where we moved EVERYTHING then we can talk about it changing anything.
Explain to me why moving your home matters?
"Don't worry, you'll be able to live in your own relocated home in the internment camp!"
Comparing apples to oranges now. Were the colonists to be moved to internment camps?
and just so we are clear forced relocation here on earth is terrible so dont take my comments here as any sort of endorsement of that, but in this specific discussion is regards to a fictional setting that gives partial information and created a 3rd faction purely to introduce a rogue faction to Voyager. I dont think the Marquis and the DMZ resettlements compare to what has happened in real life.
another bit from Memory Alpha
Despite the risks of settling on worlds close to the Cardassian border, many Federation citizens, especially Humans, chose to settle on the fertile worlds in the region (of course it needs a citation)
Why isn't it comparable again?
This is exactly like if the US handed over Alaska to Russia to prevent a nuclear war and then told all of the states residents they had to leave. "But we'll move your house with you!" does not change anything.
Well, relocation is terrible but global thermonuclear war is even terribler.
It's not like these people have been there for thousands of years, though. How old would the oldest colony be? 50 years maybe? They weren't being moved from their sacred lands, it's closer to Jewish settlements being removed from the west bank.
Say you've been living in the same house for the last 30 years. Say you spent the last 30 years cultivating and farming the land. Say you had spent decades prior searching for just the right place to live. You've had children and developed a strong community. All of a sudden the US government comes along and says they've given your entire community, the only place your children have ever known to North Korea in an attempt to stop a full scale war. IDK about you but I for one would be pretty hesitant to leave. Someone less reasonable than me might just fight back.
Space Magic doesn't negate the personal attachment to a place. Moving fucking sucks. It sucks to just move from one house to another in the same city. Moving your entire community across the god damned galaxy would weigh on one harder.
Then use space magic and transport your house, garden and neighborhood off the planet and over to a new planet.
I get what they try to portray with the Marquis and the parallels with our history of forced resettlement but in a post scarcity society where anything you want can be practically materialized out of nothing it falls flat.
Why?
You still haven't actually explained why being sort-of post-scarcity means suddenly forced relocation becomes ok.
Not "OK" but a necessary evil when looking at the grand scheme of things. You have what.. a few thousand colonists compared to the entire federation. They were given a choice to be relocated. In a post scarcity society that has transporter and replicator technology that doesn't have the same impact. Instead of leaving the home you build with your own two hands it gets beamed off planet along with all your belongings. The attachment to the land itself is still there but considering the other is living under Cardassian rule, the guys who because of bad intel laid waste to a colony without any qualms. Lots of these colonies were still pretty damn new, 20 years for the folks on Doran V, Setlik III was an outpost shortly before the Massacre (again according to Memory Alpha or at least what I can find about it) I cant find info on these colonists being there for generations, if there is planets where that was the case then I'd agree with you.
We can move houses right now. Have been able to for ages. It doesn't change anything.
Name a forced resettlement that happened in earth history where we moved EVERYTHING then we can talk about it changing anything.
Explain to me why moving your home matters?
"Don't worry, you'll be able to live in your own relocated home in the internment camp!"
Comparing apples to oranges now. Were the colonists to be moved to internment camps?
and just so we are clear forced relocation here on earth is terrible so dont take my comments here as any sort of endorsement of that, but in this specific discussion is regards to a fictional setting that gives partial information and created a 3rd faction purely to introduce a rogue faction to Voyager. I dont think the Marquis and the DMZ resettlements compare to what has happened in real life.
another bit from Memory Alpha
Despite the risks of settling on worlds close to the Cardassian border, many Federation citizens, especially Humans, chose to settle on the fertile worlds in the region (of course it needs a citation)
Why isn't it comparable again?
This is exactly like if the US handed over Alaska to Russia to prevent a nuclear war and then told all of the states residents they had to leave. "But we'll move your house with you!" does not change anything.
Explain to me why offering to move someone to the planet of their choice is equivalent to being put in an internment camp.
This isn't ethnic cleansing, it's eminent domain.
It's not to the planet of their choice because the planet of their choice is the one they live on.
Quit being obtuse.
"We will pay you generously to move to any state other than Alaska unless you want to become a Russian citizen" is not the same as "you may select which of these seven internment camps we put you in. "
It's not like these people have been there for thousands of years, though. How old would the oldest colony be? 50 years maybe? They weren't being moved from their sacred lands, it's closer to Jewish settlements being removed from the west bank.
Say you've been living in the same house for the last 30 years. Say you spent the last 30 years cultivating and farming the land. Say you had spent decades prior searching for just the right place to live. You've had children and developed a strong community. All of a sudden the US government comes along and says they've given your entire community, the only place your children have ever known to North Korea in an attempt to stop a full scale war. IDK about you but I for one would be pretty hesitant to leave. Someone less reasonable than me might just fight back.
Space Magic doesn't negate the personal attachment to a place. Moving fucking sucks. It sucks to just move from one house to another in the same city. Moving your entire community across the god damned galaxy would weigh on one harder.
Then use space magic and transport your house, garden and neighborhood off the planet and over to a new planet.
I get what they try to portray with the Marquis and the parallels with our history of forced resettlement but in a post scarcity society where anything you want can be practically materialized out of nothing it falls flat.
Why?
You still haven't actually explained why being sort-of post-scarcity means suddenly forced relocation becomes ok.
Not "OK" but a necessary evil when looking at the grand scheme of things. You have what.. a few thousand colonists compared to the entire federation. They were given a choice to be relocated. In a post scarcity society that has transporter and replicator technology that doesn't have the same impact. Instead of leaving the home you build with your own two hands it gets beamed off planet along with all your belongings. The attachment to the land itself is still there but considering the other is living under Cardassian rule, the guys who because of bad intel laid waste to a colony without any qualms. Lots of these colonies were still pretty damn new, 20 years for the folks on Doran V, Setlik III was an outpost shortly before the Massacre (again according to Memory Alpha or at least what I can find about it) I cant find info on these colonists being there for generations, if there is planets where that was the case then I'd agree with you.
We can move houses right now. Have been able to for ages. It doesn't change anything.
Name a forced resettlement that happened in earth history where we moved EVERYTHING then we can talk about it changing anything.
Explain to me why moving your home matters?
"Don't worry, you'll be able to live in your own relocated home in the internment camp!"
Comparing apples to oranges now. Were the colonists to be moved to internment camps?
and just so we are clear forced relocation here on earth is terrible so dont take my comments here as any sort of endorsement of that, but in this specific discussion is regards to a fictional setting that gives partial information and created a 3rd faction purely to introduce a rogue faction to Voyager. I dont think the Marquis and the DMZ resettlements compare to what has happened in real life.
another bit from Memory Alpha
Despite the risks of settling on worlds close to the Cardassian border, many Federation citizens, especially Humans, chose to settle on the fertile worlds in the region (of course it needs a citation)
Why isn't it comparable again?
This is exactly like if the US handed over Alaska to Russia to prevent a nuclear war and then told all of the states residents they had to leave. "But we'll move your house with you!" does not change anything.
you made a comparison to internment camps. Uncolonized planets of your choosing are all of a sudden an internment camp? Yea it isnt there first choice as that planet isn't on the table to avoid open war with another civilization.
You guys shouldn't forget, as well, that a war against the Cardassians had already taken place, and the colonists fought them. So the timeline is like:
1. Colonists settle planets and spend decades building communities and lives there.
2. War breaks out between Federation and Cardassians, colonists fight alongside Starfleet and Federation against Cardassians.
3. Federation signs treaty with Cardassians and give away the colonists' planets to the Cardassians. Cardassians agree to leave the colonists in peace and Federation agrees to help them out.
4. Cardassians start attacking and killing colonists, in blatant violation of treaty. Federation turns a blind eye. Colonists' pleas for help are ignored.
5. Colonists form Maquis to defend themselves against the Cardassians. Federation calls out the violation of treaty and sends Starfleet to fight them.
6. Federation starts sending replicators to the Cardassians to help them.
I find it hard to argue the colonists are the ones at fault here and that everything would be a-ok if they had just packed up and left.
I feel like point 4 needs a citation. This comes from the Maquis who are a bit bias in this situation. For all we know some colonists broke Cardassian law, were treated the same way Cardassians treat all criminals and the settlers lost their shit over it. This is why it is really, really stupid to willingly subject yourself to Cardassian rule when given an out to just move somewhere else with help to ensure it's the same or better than your old home.
Well it also comes from Starfleet officers sympathetic to the Maquis. Calvin Hudson on DS9 called the colonists' actions retaliation, which implies the Cardassians attacked first. And on TNG, Captain Maxwell goes rogue exactly because Starfleet and the Federation are turning a blind eye to the Cardassians arming themselves.
Soooooooooo the Maquis then. It's hard to feel sympathy for a group of people that couldn't be bothered to read a Wikipedia entry on the people they were going to be living with.
I just keep thinking of the TNG ep where Data, alone, with a single hand phaser, demonstrates to a group of stubborn colonists that (1) they're fucked if they stay and (2) they will never get a chance to hurt, or even see, those that will be doing the fucking.
(Though most people remember that one for Picard out-lawyering the Sheliak, hanging up on them, and then making them wait when they try to call back.)
I just keep thinking of the TNG ep where Data, alone, with a single hand phaser, demonstrates to a group of stubborn colonists that (1) they're fucked if they stay and (2) they will never get a chance to hurt, or even see, those that will be doing the fucking.
Fucking exactly! All the scenes of actual ground combat in DS9 and none of it took into account that they'd just be phasered from orbit.
It's not like these people have been there for thousands of years, though. How old would the oldest colony be? 50 years maybe? They weren't being moved from their sacred lands, it's closer to Jewish settlements being removed from the west bank.
Say you've been living in the same house for the last 30 years. Say you spent the last 30 years cultivating and farming the land. Say you had spent decades prior searching for just the right place to live. You've had children and developed a strong community. All of a sudden the US government comes along and says they've given your entire community, the only place your children have ever known to North Korea in an attempt to stop a full scale war. IDK about you but I for one would be pretty hesitant to leave. Someone less reasonable than me might just fight back.
Space Magic doesn't negate the personal attachment to a place. Moving fucking sucks. It sucks to just move from one house to another in the same city. Moving your entire community across the god damned galaxy would weigh on one harder.
Then use space magic and transport your house, garden and neighborhood off the planet and over to a new planet.
I get what they try to portray with the Marquis and the parallels with our history of forced resettlement but in a post scarcity society where anything you want can be practically materialized out of nothing it falls flat.
Why?
You still haven't actually explained why being sort-of post-scarcity means suddenly forced relocation becomes ok.
Not "OK" but a necessary evil when looking at the grand scheme of things. You have what.. a few thousand colonists compared to the entire federation. They were given a choice to be relocated. In a post scarcity society that has transporter and replicator technology that doesn't have the same impact. Instead of leaving the home you build with your own two hands it gets beamed off planet along with all your belongings. The attachment to the land itself is still there but considering the other is living under Cardassian rule, the guys who because of bad intel laid waste to a colony without any qualms. Lots of these colonies were still pretty damn new, 20 years for the folks on Doran V, Setlik III was an outpost shortly before the Massacre (again according to Memory Alpha or at least what I can find about it) I cant find info on these colonists being there for generations, if there is planets where that was the case then I'd agree with you.
We can move houses right now. Have been able to for ages. It doesn't change anything.
Name a forced resettlement that happened in earth history where we moved EVERYTHING then we can talk about it changing anything.
Explain to me why moving your home matters?
"Don't worry, you'll be able to live in your own relocated home in the internment camp!"
Comparing apples to oranges now. Were the colonists to be moved to internment camps?
and just so we are clear forced relocation here on earth is terrible so dont take my comments here as any sort of endorsement of that, but in this specific discussion is regards to a fictional setting that gives partial information and created a 3rd faction purely to introduce a rogue faction to Voyager. I dont think the Marquis and the DMZ resettlements compare to what has happened in real life.
another bit from Memory Alpha
Despite the risks of settling on worlds close to the Cardassian border, many Federation citizens, especially Humans, chose to settle on the fertile worlds in the region (of course it needs a citation)
Why isn't it comparable again?
This is exactly like if the US handed over Alaska to Russia to prevent a nuclear war and then told all of the states residents they had to leave. "But we'll move your house with you!" does not change anything.
Well, relocation is terrible but global thermonuclear war is even terribler.
Sure. You can say "well, in the big picture it's for the better". But that doesn't change anything for the people getting fucked by the situation.
The point is not that the Maquis are completely right it's that they aren't completely wrong. That the "out" brought up at the top of this chain is bullshit and not an obvious solution to the situation.
The whole point of the Maquis issue is that there isn't necessarily a perfect solution here and that both the Federation and the Maquis have valid points and grievances. Even if one side may, overall, be more in the right.
It's not like these people have been there for thousands of years, though. How old would the oldest colony be? 50 years maybe? They weren't being moved from their sacred lands, it's closer to Jewish settlements being removed from the west bank.
Say you've been living in the same house for the last 30 years. Say you spent the last 30 years cultivating and farming the land. Say you had spent decades prior searching for just the right place to live. You've had children and developed a strong community. All of a sudden the US government comes along and says they've given your entire community, the only place your children have ever known to North Korea in an attempt to stop a full scale war. IDK about you but I for one would be pretty hesitant to leave. Someone less reasonable than me might just fight back.
Space Magic doesn't negate the personal attachment to a place. Moving fucking sucks. It sucks to just move from one house to another in the same city. Moving your entire community across the god damned galaxy would weigh on one harder.
Then use space magic and transport your house, garden and neighborhood off the planet and over to a new planet.
I get what they try to portray with the Marquis and the parallels with our history of forced resettlement but in a post scarcity society where anything you want can be practically materialized out of nothing it falls flat.
Why?
You still haven't actually explained why being sort-of post-scarcity means suddenly forced relocation becomes ok.
Not "OK" but a necessary evil when looking at the grand scheme of things. You have what.. a few thousand colonists compared to the entire federation. They were given a choice to be relocated. In a post scarcity society that has transporter and replicator technology that doesn't have the same impact. Instead of leaving the home you build with your own two hands it gets beamed off planet along with all your belongings. The attachment to the land itself is still there but considering the other is living under Cardassian rule, the guys who because of bad intel laid waste to a colony without any qualms. Lots of these colonies were still pretty damn new, 20 years for the folks on Doran V, Setlik III was an outpost shortly before the Massacre (again according to Memory Alpha or at least what I can find about it) I cant find info on these colonists being there for generations, if there is planets where that was the case then I'd agree with you.
We can move houses right now. Have been able to for ages. It doesn't change anything.
Name a forced resettlement that happened in earth history where we moved EVERYTHING then we can talk about it changing anything.
Explain to me why moving your home matters?
"Don't worry, you'll be able to live in your own relocated home in the internment camp!"
Comparing apples to oranges now. Were the colonists to be moved to internment camps?
and just so we are clear forced relocation here on earth is terrible so dont take my comments here as any sort of endorsement of that, but in this specific discussion is regards to a fictional setting that gives partial information and created a 3rd faction purely to introduce a rogue faction to Voyager. I dont think the Marquis and the DMZ resettlements compare to what has happened in real life.
another bit from Memory Alpha
Despite the risks of settling on worlds close to the Cardassian border, many Federation citizens, especially Humans, chose to settle on the fertile worlds in the region (of course it needs a citation)
Why isn't it comparable again?
This is exactly like if the US handed over Alaska to Russia to prevent a nuclear war and then told all of the states residents they had to leave. "But we'll move your house with you!" does not change anything.
Explain to me why offering to move someone to the planet of their choice is equivalent to being put in an internment camp.
This isn't ethnic cleansing, it's eminent domain.
It's not to the planet of their choice because the planet of their choice is the one they live on.
Quit being obtuse.
"We will pay you generously to move to any state other than Alaska unless you want to become a Russian citizen" is not the same as "you may select which of these seven internment camps we put you in. "
No, but it's not "what are you even complaining about?" either like several of y'all keep trying to pretend.
Again, you act like replicators suddenly mean forcible relocation is something no one should be mad about anymore. It's fucking ridiculous and there has yet to be an actual argument for why that's the case.
Just cause the US offers generous repayment doesn't mean those Alaskans would actually want to leave or that the resettlement you are offering is actually equivalent to them.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited April 2017
If there's one thing I love about DS9 that puts it above the other Trek shows it's that it doesn't go out of its way to show the Federation as Perfect Happy Place Forever. There is internal conflict, interspecies differences, policy problems, resource shortages, and philosophical head-butting, and we get to see plenty of it.
The ideal of the Federation is great, but DS9 actually bothers to sit down and spend a good bit of time on how things would actually be. Not every opponent can be won over with well-meant speeches of pure metaphor, and not every problem can be solved by good intentions and science. Sometimes things are just going to suck and the solutions are going to suck and just how things are.
It's not like these people have been there for thousands of years, though. How old would the oldest colony be? 50 years maybe? They weren't being moved from their sacred lands, it's closer to Jewish settlements being removed from the west bank.
Say you've been living in the same house for the last 30 years. Say you spent the last 30 years cultivating and farming the land. Say you had spent decades prior searching for just the right place to live. You've had children and developed a strong community. All of a sudden the US government comes along and says they've given your entire community, the only place your children have ever known to North Korea in an attempt to stop a full scale war. IDK about you but I for one would be pretty hesitant to leave. Someone less reasonable than me might just fight back.
Space Magic doesn't negate the personal attachment to a place. Moving fucking sucks. It sucks to just move from one house to another in the same city. Moving your entire community across the god damned galaxy would weigh on one harder.
Then use space magic and transport your house, garden and neighborhood off the planet and over to a new planet.
I get what they try to portray with the Marquis and the parallels with our history of forced resettlement but in a post scarcity society where anything you want can be practically materialized out of nothing it falls flat.
Why?
You still haven't actually explained why being sort-of post-scarcity means suddenly forced relocation becomes ok.
Not "OK" but a necessary evil when looking at the grand scheme of things. You have what.. a few thousand colonists compared to the entire federation. They were given a choice to be relocated. In a post scarcity society that has transporter and replicator technology that doesn't have the same impact. Instead of leaving the home you build with your own two hands it gets beamed off planet along with all your belongings. The attachment to the land itself is still there but considering the other is living under Cardassian rule, the guys who because of bad intel laid waste to a colony without any qualms. Lots of these colonies were still pretty damn new, 20 years for the folks on Doran V, Setlik III was an outpost shortly before the Massacre (again according to Memory Alpha or at least what I can find about it) I cant find info on these colonists being there for generations, if there is planets where that was the case then I'd agree with you.
We can move houses right now. Have been able to for ages. It doesn't change anything.
Name a forced resettlement that happened in earth history where we moved EVERYTHING then we can talk about it changing anything.
Explain to me why moving your home matters?
"Don't worry, you'll be able to live in your own relocated home in the internment camp!"
Comparing apples to oranges now. Were the colonists to be moved to internment camps?
and just so we are clear forced relocation here on earth is terrible so dont take my comments here as any sort of endorsement of that, but in this specific discussion is regards to a fictional setting that gives partial information and created a 3rd faction purely to introduce a rogue faction to Voyager. I dont think the Marquis and the DMZ resettlements compare to what has happened in real life.
another bit from Memory Alpha
Despite the risks of settling on worlds close to the Cardassian border, many Federation citizens, especially Humans, chose to settle on the fertile worlds in the region (of course it needs a citation)
Why isn't it comparable again?
This is exactly like if the US handed over Alaska to Russia to prevent a nuclear war and then told all of the states residents they had to leave. "But we'll move your house with you!" does not change anything.
Explain to me why offering to move someone to the planet of their choice is equivalent to being put in an internment camp.
This isn't ethnic cleansing, it's eminent domain.
It's not to the planet of their choice because the planet of their choice is the one they live on.
Quit being obtuse.
"We will pay you generously to move to any state other than Alaska unless you want to become a Russian citizen" is not the same as "you may select which of these seven internment camps we put you in. "
No, but it's not "what are you even complaining about?" either like several of y'all keep trying to pretend.
Again, you act like replicators suddenly mean forcible relocation is something no one should be mad about anymore. It's fucking ridiculous and there has yet to be an actual argument for why that's the case.
Just cause the US offers generous repayment doesn't mean those Alaskans would actually want to leave or that the resettlement you are offering is actually equivalent to them.
I'm not saying they don't have a point, and that having to leave their home doesn't suck. I'm just saying comparing that to what happened to the Native Americans or the Japanese Americans is stupid.
If there's one thing I love about DS9 that puts it above the other Trek shows it's that it doesn't go out of its way to show the Federation as Perfect Happy Place Forever. There is internal conflict, interspecies differences, policy problems, resource shortages, and philosophical head-butting, and we get to see plenty of it.
The ideal of the Federation is great, but DS9 actually bothers to sit down and spend a good bit of time on how things would actually be. Not every opponent can be won over with well-meant speeches of pure metaphor, and not every problem can be solved by good intentions and science. Sometimes things are just going to suck and the solutions are going to suck and just how things are.
One of my characters, in online RP, is very much a TNG-style captain in a more DS9 setting. He believes in the Federation, and he's always looking and hoping for that perfect third option. Sometimes he gets it; often, he doesn't. (At least he's getting better at not brooding and taking it personally, i.e., if he was a better captain he would have found one.)
There's really no proper comparison to be made between relocations made now, in our past, and a fictional future universe with replicators, transporters, and FTL flight.
Relocating to say another country today involves a massive amount of packing (including decisions such as "are we taking the couch and other large furnishing"), followed by hiring and coordination of movers. Then logistics of purchasing new land and dwellings, ideally before you get there so you have a place to sleep and store your stuff when it gets there. Then selling of your old land/dwelling. Then travel via car and/or plane. And last but certainly not least, immigration. Wait, not last, completely forgot the lynchpin, money. None of this is exceedingly difficult (by difficulty I mean in the sense of... well keep reading), but it's still a massive undertaking, mostly just due to the logistics planning it all out. Enough that people don't just do it willy nilly, nor does a government cutting someone a check to pay for it help alleviate the issues.
Doing all that in the 1700's? Well first off you're limited to taking what you can carry and store in a cart. Then there's sheer travel time, which depending on how far you're going is measured in seasons, to say nothing of the perils involved in that. Then when you get there, you're starting from complete scratch, potentially even building your house, because it's not like you can just pop down to Ikea and buy all your furnishings. The massive upheaval and lifestyle change and danger means yeah, I sure bet most people back then weren't peachy keen on doing something like that.
Doing all that in a Star Trek universe? "Packing" involves just getting your stuff sorted into an economical pile followed by putting it into storage by snapping your fingers. As far as travel time and accommodations, Star Trek has always played fast and loose on how much time it takes to travel, but let's be super unfair and say a month. A month in what would essentially be an average hotel room, room and board and meals all provided for. And when you get there, get instantly transported to your new home along with all your stuff.
*A side note here, for every example the assumption is that your average quality of life does not change between where you are and where you're going.
For relocating now vs relocating in the past, there's just no comparison. It's just infinitely easier to do today than back then. Not to say it's easy to do today. But your biggest worry is logistics, followed by packing and sitting in a car/plane for a few days. Versus stuff like needing to hunt for food, and dysentery, and winter.
There's also no real comparing relocating now versus relocating in this possible fictional future. The best you can probably do is to ask the following: "Would you be willing to live in a hotel room for up to a month in exchange for damn near every other issue and hassle of moving being completely eliminated?". As somebody who is actually right now looking into possibly moving across the country, I can tell you my personal answer would be "Fuck yes".
It's certainly ok to be annoyed and mad about being forced to do it. But at the end of the day, when the choice is "Either you do this, or get skullfucked by an alien race that doesn't give a flying shit of a fuck about you", the idea of fighting to the death for your ancestral land of 50 years really doesn't make a whole lick of sense.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
Just because you don't personally have a problem with forced relocation, doesn't mean someone else won't.
It's not like these people have been there for thousands of years, though. How old would the oldest colony be? 50 years maybe? They weren't being moved from their sacred lands, it's closer to Jewish settlements being removed from the west bank.
Say you've been living in the same house for the last 30 years. Say you spent the last 30 years cultivating and farming the land. Say you had spent decades prior searching for just the right place to live. You've had children and developed a strong community. All of a sudden the US government comes along and says they've given your entire community, the only place your children have ever known to North Korea in an attempt to stop a full scale war. IDK about you but I for one would be pretty hesitant to leave. Someone less reasonable than me might just fight back.
Space Magic doesn't negate the personal attachment to a place. Moving fucking sucks. It sucks to just move from one house to another in the same city. Moving your entire community across the god damned galaxy would weigh on one harder.
Then use space magic and transport your house, garden and neighborhood off the planet and over to a new planet.
I get what they try to portray with the Marquis and the parallels with our history of forced resettlement but in a post scarcity society where anything you want can be practically materialized out of nothing it falls flat.
Why?
You still haven't actually explained why being sort-of post-scarcity means suddenly forced relocation becomes ok.
Not "OK" but a necessary evil when looking at the grand scheme of things. You have what.. a few thousand colonists compared to the entire federation. They were given a choice to be relocated. In a post scarcity society that has transporter and replicator technology that doesn't have the same impact. Instead of leaving the home you build with your own two hands it gets beamed off planet along with all your belongings. The attachment to the land itself is still there but considering the other is living under Cardassian rule, the guys who because of bad intel laid waste to a colony without any qualms. Lots of these colonies were still pretty damn new, 20 years for the folks on Doran V, Setlik III was an outpost shortly before the Massacre (again according to Memory Alpha or at least what I can find about it) I cant find info on these colonists being there for generations, if there is planets where that was the case then I'd agree with you.
We can move houses right now. Have been able to for ages. It doesn't change anything.
Name a forced resettlement that happened in earth history where we moved EVERYTHING then we can talk about it changing anything.
Explain to me why moving your home matters?
"Don't worry, you'll be able to live in your own relocated home in the internment camp!"
Comparing apples to oranges now. Were the colonists to be moved to internment camps?
and just so we are clear forced relocation here on earth is terrible so dont take my comments here as any sort of endorsement of that, but in this specific discussion is regards to a fictional setting that gives partial information and created a 3rd faction purely to introduce a rogue faction to Voyager. I dont think the Marquis and the DMZ resettlements compare to what has happened in real life.
another bit from Memory Alpha
Despite the risks of settling on worlds close to the Cardassian border, many Federation citizens, especially Humans, chose to settle on the fertile worlds in the region (of course it needs a citation)
Why isn't it comparable again?
This is exactly like if the US handed over Alaska to Russia to prevent a nuclear war and then told all of the states residents they had to leave. "But we'll move your house with you!" does not change anything.
Well, relocation is terrible but global thermonuclear war is even terribler.
Sure. You can say "well, in the big picture it's for the better". But that doesn't change anything for the people getting fucked by the situation.
The point is not that the Maquis are completely right it's that they aren't completely wrong. That the "out" brought up at the top of this chain is bullshit and not an obvious solution to the situation.
The whole point of the Maquis issue is that there isn't necessarily a perfect solution here and that both the Federation and the Maquis have valid points and grievances. Even if one side may, overall, be more in the right.
I agree completely they have a right to be pissed that the planet that they were colonized on for (and they never say how long these colonies have been around for other than the Native American one which was there for 20 years) and yea it sucks that the cardassians supplied its colonists with weapons to attack the ex fed colonies. The alternative is open war again with cardassia over what a small city (at best) on an entire planet?
Just because you don't personally have a problem with forced relocation, doesn't mean someone else won't.
And those people can stay under Cardassian rule. But they don't really have any excuse for having problems with the consequences of that decision. They made a dumb mistake and then want to fight about it. Why do you think the Federation actually has any say about what happens on planets legally owned by another stellar empire?
Just because you don't personally have a problem with forced relocation, doesn't mean someone else won't.
And those people can stay under Cardassian rule. But they don't really have any excuse for having problems with the consequences of that decision. They made a dumb mistake and then want to fight about it. Why do you think the Federation actually has any say about what happens on planets legally owned by another stellar empire?
Well for starters, because the treaty between the Federation and Cardassians setup the colonies in a demilitarized zone and the Cardassian government was clearly arming its colonists to run attacks against the Federation ones in direct violation of that treaty.
Just because you don't personally have a problem with forced relocation, doesn't mean someone else won't.
And those people can stay under Cardassian rule. But they don't really have any excuse for having problems with the consequences of that decision. They made a dumb mistake and then want to fight about it. Why do you think the Federation actually has any say about what happens on planets legally owned by another stellar empire?
Well for starters, because the treaty between the Federation and Cardassians setup the colonies in a demilitarized zone and the Cardassian government was clearly arming its colonists to run attacks against the Federation ones in direct violation of that treaty.
Now they never really cleared up what was going on in the DMZ, were the attacks coming from Cardassian colonies within Cardassian controlled space or were these coming from the colonies that stayed in the now federation controlled space. Were the attacks on just DMZ located colonies or outside of the DMZ in either Cardassian or Federation controlled space.
What the writers should've done is highlight that the colonies are now unique cultures, where the decision to move quite literally means damaging, if not destroying, that culture. Instead, we get stereotypical, generic, mid-1990s Native Americans in spaaaaaaaaaaaaace who are never heard from again, and a bunch of former Federation people who don't seem any different than current Federation people.
In other words, the writers should've really hammered home why these colonies are so important to these people outside of simple sentimentality. Because, yeah, in this future, with a ton of hospitable planets and the ability to create things with no penalty, there's no physical reason why moving is a bad idea. It's not like they're going to be mistreated by the Federation if they agree to move (although that would've been an interesting twist, too).
Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited April 2017
I think that the real reason for the sense of betrayal is,as Eddington vaguely alluded to, is that the Federation did all this in the name of peace when it could have won the war and enforced it at the point of a phaser, with ease.
Remember that the colonists were using second hand and repurposed ships to stand up to Cardassian ships of the line and holding their own. Thts how far ahead of the Cardassians the Federation was; second hand civilian pleasure yachts out flying and out fighting cruisers.
One rogue Starfleet cruiser wrecked an entire Cardassian sector fleet without even trying, and was only stopped by another Federation ship giving away crippling inside knowledge. If the Federation took the whole incident seriously there wouldn't have been a Cardassian Union to call for aid from the Dominion.
Basically the Federation put peace and the opportunity to collect another species down the line ahead of the welfare of its existing members. So, exactly like the Borg, just slower.
That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
I really want a Trek series set during the Cardassian/Federation war. It would just be episode after episode of spoonheads getting their shit wreaked and being salty about it.
I think that the real reason for the sense of betrayal is,as Eddington vaguely alluded to, is that the Federation did all this in the name of peace when it could have won the war and enforced it at the point of a phaser, with ease.
Remember that the colonists were using second hand and repurposed ships to stand up to Cardassian ships of the line and holding their own. Thts how far ahead of the Cardassians the Federation was; second hand civilian pleasure yachts out flying and out fighting cruisers.
One rogue Stsrfleet cruiser wrecked an entire Cardassian sector fleet without even trying, and was only stopped by another Federation ship giving away crippling inside knowledge. If the Federation took the whole incident seriously there wouldn't have been a Cardassian Union to call for aid from the Dominion.
Basically the Federation put peace and the opportunity to collect mother species down the line ahead of the welfare of its existing members. So, exactly like the Borg, just slower.
So what you're saying is that the Maquis have worldviews similar to Trump Republicans, rejecting the liberal galaxyview of peaceful collaboration benefiting everyone in the long-term and skeptical of the power of liberal Federation institutions to eventually subsume Cardassian aggression, xenophobia, and nationalism, instead preferring to view the galaxy as a transactional, limited value space, in which rational agents should use whatever power they have to take what's theirs.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
I really want a Trek series set during the Cardassian/Federation war. It would just be episode after episode of spoonheads getting their shit wreaked and being salty about it.
Possibly with Federation officeres looking embarrassed and guilty about how easy it is for them (most of the time).
I really want a Trek series set during the Cardassian/Federation war. It would just be episode after episode of spoonheads getting their shit wreaked and being salty about it.
The main front line ships of Starfleet didn't seem to get involved, so maybe it wasn't a complete curbstomp. I mean, the war was happening during TNG season 1, and wasn't even topic of conversation on the Enterprise.
Granted, we see a Nebula wrecking some shit, but the war was probably being fought mainly with Mirandas and Constellations and Excelsiors, which won't match up quite as one sidedly.
I really want a Trek series set during the Cardassian/Federation war. It would just be episode after episode of spoonheads getting their shit wreaked and being salty about it.
Possibly with Federation officeres looking embarrassed and guilty about how easy it is for them (most of the time).
After Futurama parodying Star Trek, we would come full circle and have Star Trek parodying Futurama.
"Captain's log, stardate 3000.3. We have detected a Cardassian fleet. I'm anticipating an all-out tactical dogfight, followed by a light dinner... ravioli, ham, sundae bar."
Given O'Brien's experience in the war, it sounds like despite space superiority, the Federation was unwilling to glass Cardassian positions from orbit so they used ground forces instead.
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Given O'Brien's experience in the war, it sounds like despite space superiority, the Federation was unwilling to glass Cardassian positions from orbit so they used ground forces instead.
I try not to think about it too much. Star Trek warfare makes no damn sense.
That said, IIRC, I think O'Brian was in a defensive position, protecting a group (civilians?) who were cut off from Starfleet support and faced a Cardassian surprise raid.
Given O'Brien's experience in the war, it sounds like despite space superiority, the Federation was unwilling to glass Cardassian positions from orbit so they used ground forces instead.
It's hard to look like the good guy when you're dropping antimatter warheads on habitable planets after you've reduced the defending space fleet to dust from outside their weapon range.
And, if nothing else, I'm betting we can all agree that the Federation loves to look like the good guys.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
Do we know when in the conflict the Setlik III Massacre occurred? It could have been the opening move, the atrocity that started the "war" to follow…
Do we know when in the conflict the Setlik III Massacre occurred? It could have been the opening move, the atrocity that started the "war" to follow…
It's not firmly established. O'Brien mentioned that it took place around 2347 (the start of the war) in The Wounded and Sisko seems to imply in Tribunal that it took place shortly before 2362 (near the end).
The whole situation with the Cardassians was just really complicated. I'm sure Starfleet could have easily wrecked the Cardassians but that would have also pushed them towards using more extreme methods.
They have shown that despite their inferior technology, the Cardassians can be very tricky. They can employ all sorts of clever schemes to fight a superior enemy. They're also willing to develop nasty super weapons like the one in Chain of Command, which I think was capable of being sent over subspace to destroy organic life on a planet. That would be devastating if they ever managed to get it to work. Not to mention how the Obsidian Order might actually end up being an even bigger threat than the Cardassian military.
It was a very difficult situation for the Federation with no good solutions.
I doubt the Federation is really interested in wrecking a significant mid-tier regional power on their border and either ending up with a protectorate to rebuild or opening the doors to who knows who else in the region to cause chaos in the power vacuum. They benefit from a stable Cardassia as long as the power gap prevents them from mounting a credible threat.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Given O'Brien's experience in the war, it sounds like despite space superiority, the Federation was unwilling to glass Cardassian positions from orbit so they used ground forces instead.
I try not to think about it too much. Star Trek warfare makes no damn sense.
That said, IIRC, I think O'Brian was in a defensive position, protecting a group (civilians?) who were cut off from Starfleet support and faced a Cardassian surprise raid.
I remember a blog post that attempted to analyze Star Trek warfare based on the assumption that what was shown in episodes actually represented good tactics and strategy. Things went off the rails way quick.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
The whole situation with the Cardassians was just really complicated. I'm sure Starfleet could have easily wrecked the Cardassians but that would have also pushed them towards using more extreme methods.
They have shown that despite their inferior technology, the Cardassians can be very tricky. They can employ all sorts of clever schemes to fight a superior enemy. They're also willing to develop nasty super weapons like the one in Chain of Command, which I think was capable of being sent over subspace to destroy organic life on a planet. That would be devastating if they ever managed to get it to work. Not to mention how the Obsidian Order might actually end up being an even bigger threat than the Cardassian military.
It was a very difficult situation for the Federation with no good solutions.
There's an interesting analogue to the TNG episode "Suddenly Human" that involves a human boy being raised by somewhat hostile, militant, and xenophobic aliens called Talarians. The Talarians had massacred a Federation outpost but were explicitly technologically inferior (the episode essentially says that the Enterprise is more than capable of handling three of their warships without difficulty).
Given O'Brien's experience in the war, it sounds like despite space superiority, the Federation was unwilling to glass Cardassian positions from orbit so they used ground forces instead.
I try not to think about it too much. Star Trek warfare makes no damn sense.
That said, IIRC, I think O'Brian was in a defensive position, protecting a group (civilians?) who were cut off from Starfleet support and faced a Cardassian surprise raid.
I remember a blog post that attempted to analyze Star Trek warfare based on the assumption that what was shown in episodes actually represented good tactics and strategy. Things went off the rails way quick.
Lets not even discuss space battles (as shown on movies and TV) other than "All good things" they all end up being setup like naval battles on a flat plane, that is pretty common though. Was watching Rebels and oh no a blockade of star destroyers were in front of the rebels and they had to go right through them to escape (instead of going around or anything)
The whole situation with the Cardassians was just really complicated. I'm sure Starfleet could have easily wrecked the Cardassians but that would have also pushed them towards using more extreme methods.
Not really, the Cardassians were violating a treaty and the federation were turning a blind eye because they didn't want another war. The writers gave the situation no subtly because the purpose of it was simply to setup the Marquis for Voyager and it was a background storyline so received little attention. DS9 did the best they could with it but the setup was pretty weak and the writers refused to portray the Marquis as anything other than in the wrong for some reason. In the end they wrote an episode to featuring the return of Edrington just to finish the storyline off for good.
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Well, relocation is terrible but global thermonuclear war is even terribler.
Quit being obtuse.
"We will pay you generously to move to any state other than Alaska unless you want to become a Russian citizen" is not the same as "you may select which of these seven internment camps we put you in. "
you made a comparison to internment camps. Uncolonized planets of your choosing are all of a sudden an internment camp? Yea it isnt there first choice as that planet isn't on the table to avoid open war with another civilization.
Soooooooooo the Maquis then. It's hard to feel sympathy for a group of people that couldn't be bothered to read a Wikipedia entry on the people they were going to be living with.
(Though most people remember that one for Picard out-lawyering the Sheliak, hanging up on them, and then making them wait when they try to call back.)
Fucking exactly! All the scenes of actual ground combat in DS9 and none of it took into account that they'd just be phasered from orbit.
Sure. You can say "well, in the big picture it's for the better". But that doesn't change anything for the people getting fucked by the situation.
The point is not that the Maquis are completely right it's that they aren't completely wrong. That the "out" brought up at the top of this chain is bullshit and not an obvious solution to the situation.
The whole point of the Maquis issue is that there isn't necessarily a perfect solution here and that both the Federation and the Maquis have valid points and grievances. Even if one side may, overall, be more in the right.
No, but it's not "what are you even complaining about?" either like several of y'all keep trying to pretend.
Again, you act like replicators suddenly mean forcible relocation is something no one should be mad about anymore. It's fucking ridiculous and there has yet to be an actual argument for why that's the case.
Just cause the US offers generous repayment doesn't mean those Alaskans would actually want to leave or that the resettlement you are offering is actually equivalent to them.
no
The ideal of the Federation is great, but DS9 actually bothers to sit down and spend a good bit of time on how things would actually be. Not every opponent can be won over with well-meant speeches of pure metaphor, and not every problem can be solved by good intentions and science. Sometimes things are just going to suck and the solutions are going to suck and just how things are.
One of my characters, in online RP, is very much a TNG-style captain in a more DS9 setting. He believes in the Federation, and he's always looking and hoping for that perfect third option. Sometimes he gets it; often, he doesn't. (At least he's getting better at not brooding and taking it personally, i.e., if he was a better captain he would have found one.)
Relocating to say another country today involves a massive amount of packing (including decisions such as "are we taking the couch and other large furnishing"), followed by hiring and coordination of movers. Then logistics of purchasing new land and dwellings, ideally before you get there so you have a place to sleep and store your stuff when it gets there. Then selling of your old land/dwelling. Then travel via car and/or plane. And last but certainly not least, immigration. Wait, not last, completely forgot the lynchpin, money. None of this is exceedingly difficult (by difficulty I mean in the sense of... well keep reading), but it's still a massive undertaking, mostly just due to the logistics planning it all out. Enough that people don't just do it willy nilly, nor does a government cutting someone a check to pay for it help alleviate the issues.
Doing all that in the 1700's? Well first off you're limited to taking what you can carry and store in a cart. Then there's sheer travel time, which depending on how far you're going is measured in seasons, to say nothing of the perils involved in that. Then when you get there, you're starting from complete scratch, potentially even building your house, because it's not like you can just pop down to Ikea and buy all your furnishings. The massive upheaval and lifestyle change and danger means yeah, I sure bet most people back then weren't peachy keen on doing something like that.
Doing all that in a Star Trek universe? "Packing" involves just getting your stuff sorted into an economical pile followed by putting it into storage by snapping your fingers. As far as travel time and accommodations, Star Trek has always played fast and loose on how much time it takes to travel, but let's be super unfair and say a month. A month in what would essentially be an average hotel room, room and board and meals all provided for. And when you get there, get instantly transported to your new home along with all your stuff.
*A side note here, for every example the assumption is that your average quality of life does not change between where you are and where you're going.
For relocating now vs relocating in the past, there's just no comparison. It's just infinitely easier to do today than back then. Not to say it's easy to do today. But your biggest worry is logistics, followed by packing and sitting in a car/plane for a few days. Versus stuff like needing to hunt for food, and dysentery, and winter.
There's also no real comparing relocating now versus relocating in this possible fictional future. The best you can probably do is to ask the following: "Would you be willing to live in a hotel room for up to a month in exchange for damn near every other issue and hassle of moving being completely eliminated?". As somebody who is actually right now looking into possibly moving across the country, I can tell you my personal answer would be "Fuck yes".
It's certainly ok to be annoyed and mad about being forced to do it. But at the end of the day, when the choice is "Either you do this, or get skullfucked by an alien race that doesn't give a flying shit of a fuck about you", the idea of fighting to the death for your ancestral land of 50 years really doesn't make a whole lick of sense.
I agree completely they have a right to be pissed that the planet that they were colonized on for (and they never say how long these colonies have been around for other than the Native American one which was there for 20 years) and yea it sucks that the cardassians supplied its colonists with weapons to attack the ex fed colonies. The alternative is open war again with cardassia over what a small city (at best) on an entire planet?
And those people can stay under Cardassian rule. But they don't really have any excuse for having problems with the consequences of that decision. They made a dumb mistake and then want to fight about it. Why do you think the Federation actually has any say about what happens on planets legally owned by another stellar empire?
Well for starters, because the treaty between the Federation and Cardassians setup the colonies in a demilitarized zone and the Cardassian government was clearly arming its colonists to run attacks against the Federation ones in direct violation of that treaty.
Now they never really cleared up what was going on in the DMZ, were the attacks coming from Cardassian colonies within Cardassian controlled space or were these coming from the colonies that stayed in the now federation controlled space. Were the attacks on just DMZ located colonies or outside of the DMZ in either Cardassian or Federation controlled space.
In other words, the writers should've really hammered home why these colonies are so important to these people outside of simple sentimentality. Because, yeah, in this future, with a ton of hospitable planets and the ability to create things with no penalty, there's no physical reason why moving is a bad idea. It's not like they're going to be mistreated by the Federation if they agree to move (although that would've been an interesting twist, too).
Remember that the colonists were using second hand and repurposed ships to stand up to Cardassian ships of the line and holding their own. Thts how far ahead of the Cardassians the Federation was; second hand civilian pleasure yachts out flying and out fighting cruisers.
One rogue Starfleet cruiser wrecked an entire Cardassian sector fleet without even trying, and was only stopped by another Federation ship giving away crippling inside knowledge. If the Federation took the whole incident seriously there wouldn't have been a Cardassian Union to call for aid from the Dominion.
Basically the Federation put peace and the opportunity to collect another species down the line ahead of the welfare of its existing members. So, exactly like the Borg, just slower.
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So what you're saying is that the Maquis have worldviews similar to Trump Republicans, rejecting the liberal galaxyview of peaceful collaboration benefiting everyone in the long-term and skeptical of the power of liberal Federation institutions to eventually subsume Cardassian aggression, xenophobia, and nationalism, instead preferring to view the galaxy as a transactional, limited value space, in which rational agents should use whatever power they have to take what's theirs.
Possibly with Federation officeres looking embarrassed and guilty about how easy it is for them (most of the time).
The main front line ships of Starfleet didn't seem to get involved, so maybe it wasn't a complete curbstomp. I mean, the war was happening during TNG season 1, and wasn't even topic of conversation on the Enterprise.
Granted, we see a Nebula wrecking some shit, but the war was probably being fought mainly with Mirandas and Constellations and Excelsiors, which won't match up quite as one sidedly.
After Futurama parodying Star Trek, we would come full circle and have Star Trek parodying Futurama.
"Captain's log, stardate 3000.3. We have detected a Cardassian fleet. I'm anticipating an all-out tactical dogfight, followed by a light dinner... ravioli, ham, sundae bar."
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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I try not to think about it too much. Star Trek warfare makes no damn sense.
That said, IIRC, I think O'Brian was in a defensive position, protecting a group (civilians?) who were cut off from Starfleet support and faced a Cardassian surprise raid.
It's hard to look like the good guy when you're dropping antimatter warheads on habitable planets after you've reduced the defending space fleet to dust from outside their weapon range.
And, if nothing else, I'm betting we can all agree that the Federation loves to look like the good guys.
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It's not firmly established. O'Brien mentioned that it took place around 2347 (the start of the war) in The Wounded and Sisko seems to imply in Tribunal that it took place shortly before 2362 (near the end).
They have shown that despite their inferior technology, the Cardassians can be very tricky. They can employ all sorts of clever schemes to fight a superior enemy. They're also willing to develop nasty super weapons like the one in Chain of Command, which I think was capable of being sent over subspace to destroy organic life on a planet. That would be devastating if they ever managed to get it to work. Not to mention how the Obsidian Order might actually end up being an even bigger threat than the Cardassian military.
It was a very difficult situation for the Federation with no good solutions.
I remember a blog post that attempted to analyze Star Trek warfare based on the assumption that what was shown in episodes actually represented good tactics and strategy. Things went off the rails way quick.
There's an interesting analogue to the TNG episode "Suddenly Human" that involves a human boy being raised by somewhat hostile, militant, and xenophobic aliens called Talarians. The Talarians had massacred a Federation outpost but were explicitly technologically inferior (the episode essentially says that the Enterprise is more than capable of handling three of their warships without difficulty).
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Lets not even discuss space battles (as shown on movies and TV) other than "All good things" they all end up being setup like naval battles on a flat plane, that is pretty common though. Was watching Rebels and oh no a blockade of star destroyers were in front of the rebels and they had to go right through them to escape (instead of going around or anything)
Just weird.
Not really, the Cardassians were violating a treaty and the federation were turning a blind eye because they didn't want another war. The writers gave the situation no subtly because the purpose of it was simply to setup the Marquis for Voyager and it was a background storyline so received little attention. DS9 did the best they could with it but the setup was pretty weak and the writers refused to portray the Marquis as anything other than in the wrong for some reason. In the end they wrote an episode to featuring the return of Edrington just to finish the storyline off for good.