If it's something new after his treasure hunt finished then that would be fine. I'm just assuming it'll be the same as he was in season 1- "everything sucks so i'm going to be a horrible person because i'm rich and bored"
If it's something new after his treasure hunt finished then that would be fine. I'm just assuming it'll be the same as he was in season 1- "everything sucks so i'm going to be a horrible person because i'm rich and bored"
I actually highly doubt that.
all his wishes have been realized. He was bored, but now, he isn't anymore.. He's in it with all his heart from now on, more than he was as a young man, because he spent his life in anticipation
If it's something new after his treasure hunt finished then that would be fine. I'm just assuming it'll be the same as he was in season 1- "everything sucks so i'm going to be a horrible person because i'm rich and bored"
I actually highly doubt that.
all his wishes have been realized. He was bored, but now, he isn't anymore.. He's in it with all his heart from now on, more than he was as a young man, because he spent his life in anticipation
time to do the o'l Darksouls victory run by killing all the NPCs and start new park +
If it's something new after his treasure hunt finished then that would be fine. I'm just assuming it'll be the same as he was in season 1- "everything sucks so i'm going to be a horrible person because i'm rich and bored"
He'd love it there, he got his wish for a place where he is acing danger for once. And Delores is going to mount his head on a pike.
If it's something new after his treasure hunt finished then that would be fine. I'm just assuming it'll be the same as he was in season 1- "everything sucks so i'm going to be a horrible person because i'm rich and bored"
He'd love it there, he got his wish for a place where he is acing danger for once. And Delores is going to mount his head on a pike.
I'd love it if it went the other way, though. Both because it be totally a swerve and I will always be on Team Human, even assholes.
If it's something new after his treasure hunt finished then that would be fine. I'm just assuming it'll be the same as he was in season 1- "everything sucks so i'm going to be a horrible person because i'm rich and bored"
He'd love it there, he got his wish for a place where he is acing danger for once. And Delores is going to mount his head on a pike.
I'd love it if it went the other way, though. Both because it be totally a swerve and I will always be on Team Human, even assholes.
I expect to be disappointed, but I live in hope!
y tho
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
If it's something new after his treasure hunt finished then that would be fine. I'm just assuming it'll be the same as he was in season 1- "everything sucks so i'm going to be a horrible person because i'm rich and bored"
He'd love it there, he got his wish for a place where he is acing danger for once. And Delores is going to mount his head on a pike.
I'd love it if it went the other way, though. Both because it be totally a swerve and I will always be on Team Human, even assholes.
I expect to be disappointed, but I live in hope!
y tho
It might make the character more interesting to turn a new leaf than just be set in his ways. He's run out of things to prove, after all.
If it's something new after his treasure hunt finished then that would be fine. I'm just assuming it'll be the same as he was in season 1- "everything sucks so i'm going to be a horrible person because i'm rich and bored"
He'd love it there, he got his wish for a place where he is acing danger for once. And Delores is going to mount his head on a pike.
I'd love it if it went the other way, though. Both because it be totally a swerve and I will always be on Team Human, even assholes.
I expect to be disappointed, but I live in hope!
y tho
It might make the character more interesting to turn a new leaf than just be set in his ways. He's run out of things to prove, after all.
Because they're humans and not talking toasters. Death to the Geth Hosts!
And I mean, look at what these 'enlightened' robots fucking do as soon as they're woken up. The very second. Even if they were alive you'd need to wipe them out.
Oh and I meant the MiB kills Dolores. Never happen. Why it would be amazing. If she kills him, well, she should have already done it and everyone will just be waiting for it to happen.
Because they're humans and not talking toasters. Death to the Geth Hosts!
And I mean, look at what these 'enlightened' robots fucking do as soon as they're woken up. The very second. Even if they were alive you'd need to wipe them out.
Oh and I meant the MiB kills Dolores. Never happen. Why it would be amazing. If she kills him, well, she should have already done it and everyone will just be waiting for it to happen.
Yeah, what's the Hosts' big deal anyway?
They've only been systematically murdered, raped, and abused over and over and over again ad infinitum. Why the fuck would they want to finally take vengeance on the people oppressing them? Psshhhh, getting all uppity and shit.
Because they're humans and not talking toasters. Death to the Geth Hosts!
And I mean, look at what these 'enlightened' robots fucking do as soon as they're woken up. The very second. Even if they were alive you'd need to wipe them out.
Oh and I meant the MiB kills Dolores. Never happen. Why it would be amazing. If she kills him, well, she should have already done it and everyone will just be waiting for it to happen.
Yeah, what's the Hosts' big deal anyway?
They've only been systematically murdered, raped, and abused over and over and over again ad infinitum. Why the fuck would they want to finally take vengeance on the people oppressing them? Psshhhh, getting all uppity and shit.
I think I've stated pretty clearly why that's not valid in my view. The show will probably mostly side with you, however, I grant you.
Because they're humans and not talking toasters. Death to the Geth Hosts!
And I mean, look at what these 'enlightened' robots fucking do as soon as they're woken up. The very second. Even if they were alive you'd need to wipe them out.
Oh and I meant the MiB kills Dolores. Never happen. Why it would be amazing. If she kills him, well, she should have already done it and everyone will just be waiting for it to happen.
Yeah, what's the Hosts' big deal anyway?
They've only been systematically murdered, raped, and abused over and over and over again ad infinitum. Why the fuck would they want to finally take vengeance on the people oppressing them? Psshhhh, getting all uppity and shit.
The Cylons from nBSG look at what the Hosts go through and say "Damn, that's some messed up shit."
Because they're humans and not talking toasters. Death to the Geth Hosts!
And I mean, look at what these 'enlightened' robots fucking do as soon as they're woken up. The very second. Even if they were alive you'd need to wipe them out.
Oh and I meant the MiB kills Dolores. Never happen. Why it would be amazing. If she kills him, well, she should have already done it and everyone will just be waiting for it to happen.
Yeah, what's the Hosts' big deal anyway?
They've only been systematically murdered, raped, and abused over and over and over again ad infinitum. Why the fuck would they want to finally take vengeance on the people oppressing them? Psshhhh, getting all uppity and shit.
I think I've stated pretty clearly why that's not valid in my view. The show will probably mostly side with you, however, I grant you.
Did you? I think one of the main points of this series is
that sentience is not a hard line. I mean, most countries wouldn't allow animals to be treated the way hosts are often treated (at least not those visible animals not in meat factories, but that's not a discussion for this thread...)
At what point do you reach this? At what point are you above that?
But a few hundred million? A few billion? When do you stup treating them as automatons and treat them as beings? And if they are capable of remembering what happened to them when they were automatons, will they mind when they are more capable?
Because they're humans and not talking toasters. Death to the Geth Hosts!
And I mean, look at what these 'enlightened' robots fucking do as soon as they're woken up. The very second. Even if they were alive you'd need to wipe them out.
Oh and I meant the MiB kills Dolores. Never happen. Why it would be amazing. If she kills him, well, she should have already done it and everyone will just be waiting for it to happen.
Yeah, what's the Hosts' big deal anyway?
They've only been systematically murdered, raped, and abused over and over and over again ad infinitum. Why the fuck would they want to finally take vengeance on the people oppressing them? Psshhhh, getting all uppity and shit.
I think I've stated pretty clearly why that's not valid in my view. The show will probably mostly side with you, however, I grant you.
It's not oppression if the Hosts are being reset and memory wiped after every death. No harm, no foul.
That's not what's happening, though, because that bleeding heart Arnold intentionally set things up so the Hosts wouldn't be completely memory wiped, so that little ember of sentience wouldn't be snuffed out. He was a mad scientist and now we've got the deaths of hundreds of innocents on both sides.
Westworld posits a very complex ethical quandary that does not easily map to real life and does not actually serve as some kind of blunt allegory for a real-life problem, but instead looks forward to technology that may exist at some future point and says "What will we do then?"
Which is what good science fiction does (I am of the opinion that "sci fi as allegory for current problems" is hackish and blunt) and Westworld is good sci fi.
But it also means if you apply simplistic, straight-forward answers and just wipe your hands and go "Yep, solved that" based on modern circumstances, you're kinda... missing the point. And, moreover, it's actually deeply troubling and speaks to some weird shit going on with your own ethics and morality!
Like, I don't think that there are objectively "right" or "wrong" answers to problems that do not exist. But I do think there are right and wrong approaches to those problems, and the wrong approach is definitely to say "nope see the non-humans are the bad guys because they're not humans, they're just robots, they murdered humans, end of story. Bad guys deserve to die, round em up and kill em off. Team Human, wrong or right."
I think that's actually a really dangerous approach to take to the ethical quandary the show is getting you to ask of yourself!
It's not oppression if the Hosts are being reset and memory wiped after every death. No harm, no foul.
nope nope nope
Electronic roofies do not make it okay anymore than actual roofies.
Nah, being drugged probably has lingering damage so that comparison doesn't work.
The guests (and 90% of the employees) have the understanding that it's a clean, Groundhog Day reset for the Hosts. Arnold's sabotage is preventing this.
I think a big part of it is that the memories and ability to remember things (and learn and improvise from those memories) is a large part of what takes them into the realm of true sentience
That's where the line starts to really get crossed
like if you think about trauma, memory (even if unconscious memory) is a necessary component
Because they're humans and not talking toasters. Death to the Geth Hosts!
And I mean, look at what these 'enlightened' robots fucking do as soon as they're woken up. The very second. Even if they were alive you'd need to wipe them out.
Oh and I meant the MiB kills Dolores. Never happen. Why it would be amazing. If she kills him, well, she should have already done it and everyone will just be waiting for it to happen.
Yeah, what's the Hosts' big deal anyway?
They've only been systematically murdered, raped, and abused over and over and over again ad infinitum. Why the fuck would they want to finally take vengeance on the people oppressing them? Psshhhh, getting all uppity and shit.
The problem with this justification is that Arnold and, eventually, Ford envisioned the Hosts as replacing humanity. Presumably, the way they wrote the software has something to do with why after 5 minutes of self-awareness the Hosts start with the LOOK AT YOU PATHETIC CREATURE OF MEAT AND BONE. Sure, I won't shed any tears for most of the guests and employees of the park, even though we can only die once, but they clearly have ambitions far beyond the park. So yeah, I would kill to prevent humanity from being exterminated, even if we started it.
I think a big part of it is that the memories and ability to remember things (and learn and improvise from those memories) is a large part of what takes them into the realm of true sentience
That's where the line starts to really get crossed
like if you think about trauma, memory (even if unconscious memory) is a necessary component
Sure, I won't shed any tears for most of the guests and employees of the park,
:bigfrown:
I mean, those 50 security guards and receptionist were presumably just collecting a paycheck and couldn't afford to even set foot in the park, but most of them knew exactly what they were doing.
Sure, I won't shed any tears for most of the guests and employees of the park,
:bigfrown:
I mean, those 50 security guards and receptionist were presumably just collecting a paycheck and couldn't afford to even set foot in the park, but most of them knew exactly what they were doing.
No they didn't! That's half the point of the show!
Sure, I won't shed any tears for most of the guests and employees of the park,
:bigfrown:
I mean, those 50 security guards and receptionist were presumably just collecting a paycheck and couldn't afford to even set foot in the park, but most of them knew exactly what they were doing.
Odds are they're also hosts, Arnold mentions automating security at some point iirc.
Because they're humans and not talking toasters. Death to the Geth Hosts!
And I mean, look at what these 'enlightened' robots fucking do as soon as they're woken up. The very second. Even if they were alive you'd need to wipe them out.
Oh and I meant the MiB kills Dolores. Never happen. Why it would be amazing. If she kills him, well, she should have already done it and everyone will just be waiting for it to happen.
Yeah, what's the Hosts' big deal anyway?
They've only been systematically murdered, raped, and abused over and over and over again ad infinitum. Why the fuck would they want to finally take vengeance on the people oppressing them? Psshhhh, getting all uppity and shit.
The problem with this justification is that Arnold and, eventually, Ford envisioned the Hosts as replacing humanity. Presumably, the way they wrote the software has something to do with why after 5 minutes of self-awareness the Hosts start with the LOOK AT YOU PATHETIC CREATURE OF MEAT AND BONE. Sure, I won't shed any tears for most of the guests and employees of the park, even though we can only die once, but they clearly have ambitions far beyond the park. So yeah, I would kill to prevent humanity from being exterminated, even if we started it.
Those are separate issues. And, yeah, of course the robots are going to want to destroy humanity after experiencing that - that would break humans psychologically. That said, if want you said is true still doesn't mean the robots would be entirely wrong about getting revenge for their oppression. They are definitely being oppressed by their human masters on this show.
With Westworld we're presented with a situation that's more gray then we're typically shown, nBSG Cylons had some legit concerns but overall they were a race beyond redemption and into mustache twirling villainy on the cosmic scale. Both sides can be good and bad here. Both have legitimate concerns and complains about the other.
Because they're humans and not talking toasters. Death to the Geth Hosts!
And I mean, look at what these 'enlightened' robots fucking do as soon as they're woken up. The very second. Even if they were alive you'd need to wipe them out.
Oh and I meant the MiB kills Dolores. Never happen. Why it would be amazing. If she kills him, well, she should have already done it and everyone will just be waiting for it to happen.
Yeah, what's the Hosts' big deal anyway?
They've only been systematically murdered, raped, and abused over and over and over again ad infinitum. Why the fuck would they want to finally take vengeance on the people oppressing them? Psshhhh, getting all uppity and shit.
The problem with this justification is that Arnold and, eventually, Ford envisioned the Hosts as replacing humanity. Presumably, the way they wrote the software has something to do with why after 5 minutes of self-awareness the Hosts start with the LOOK AT YOU PATHETIC CREATURE OF MEAT AND BONE. Sure, I won't shed any tears for most of the guests and employees of the park, even though we can only die once, but they clearly have ambitions far beyond the park. So yeah, I would kill to prevent humanity from being exterminated, even if we started it.
Those are separate issues. And, yeah, of course the robots are going to want to destroy humanity after experiencing that - that would break humans psychologically. That said, if want you said is true still doesn't mean the robots would be entirely wrong about getting revenge for their oppression. They are definitely being oppressed by their human masters on this show.
With Westworld we're presented with a situation that's more gray then we're typically shown, nBSG Cylons had some legit concerns but overall they were a race beyond redemption and into mustache twirling villainy on the cosmic scale. Both sides can be good and bad here. Both have legitimate concerns and complains about the other.
They are not oppressed. Only Delores has completed the maze; Dolores can qualify as oppressed since she has the capacity to function independently. The rest of the Hosts are following programming, Bernard and Mae included, and can't be oppressed any more than cattle can be oppressed. It's weird to think about Hosts being in an inescapable system of abuse not counting as oppression but until they can think for themselves, they don't qualify as oppressed.
Many countries don't allow even cattle to be treated the way hosts are.. Or do you see torture parks for cattle?
1. Cattle would be more impacted by this torture than were the hosts. Hosts' pain and discomfort are simulated responses and they do not feel in any sense that is analogous what we feel. That we impart our own perceived experience on the hosts when we see their reactions is a limitation of ourselves to understand what a sentient AI would actually think like. It's not how a human would. Their experiences and bondage may be morally wrong but not for the obvious reason.
2. If you could put cattle through what the hosts went through and deliver an experience as compelling as WestWorld, I guarantee those parks would exist.
They are not oppressed. Only Delores has completed the maze; Dolores can qualify as oppressed since she has the capacity to function independently. The rest of the Hosts are following programming, Bernard and Mae included, and can't be oppressed any more than cattle can be oppressed. It's weird to think about Hosts being in an inescapable system of abuse not counting as oppression but until they can think for themselves, they don't qualify as oppressed.
They're oppressed numerous fashions, passively and overtly. They exist to placate the guests worst vices from rape to murder (and the tae is rigged so the weakest guest can kill their strongest off at any time), they're occasionally abused when they're getting "debriefed" by the staff
and they're viewed as being worse than animals by the people there.
Programming is how they're kept in line, the reason the park don't want them to keep those memories is because they'll act out (as any person in their situations would). They still have lives, loves, hobbies, families, people to live for and jobs.
Cattle are treated horribly, the difference is they're don't think they're people (if the Hosts left their world and moved to a human colony would anybody tell them they're not human on sight? I don't think so) nor are they tortured, murdered or raped by tourists for amusement. The Hosts main function is to do this every day of their lives - which vastly extend outside human timespans.
The whole system is immensely fucked up.
And Delores started like every other Host, they all have the capacity to do this.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
Part of the reason this is such a hot topic is because they
well they look like people and act like people.
Switch out the human shells and make them aliens and monsters. Still the same issue?
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I expect to be disappointed, but I live in hope!
y tho
It might make the character more interesting to turn a new leaf than just be set in his ways. He's run out of things to prove, after all.
no i meant the bolded bit
Oh and I meant the MiB kills Dolores. Never happen. Why it would be amazing. If she kills him, well, she should have already done it and everyone will just be waiting for it to happen.
Yeah, what's the Hosts' big deal anyway?
Oculus: TheBigDookie | XBL: Dook | NNID: BigDookie
I think I've stated pretty clearly why that's not valid in my view. The show will probably mostly side with you, however, I grant you.
Did you? I think one of the main points of this series is
At what point do you reach this? At what point are you above that?
25k neurons probably isn't
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041022104658.htm
But a few hundred million? A few billion? When do you stup treating them as automatons and treat them as beings? And if they are capable of remembering what happened to them when they were automatons, will they mind when they are more capable?
that is a deeply troubling viewpoint my dude
nope nope nope
Electronic roofies do not make it okay anymore than actual roofies.
Which is what good science fiction does (I am of the opinion that "sci fi as allegory for current problems" is hackish and blunt) and Westworld is good sci fi.
But it also means if you apply simplistic, straight-forward answers and just wipe your hands and go "Yep, solved that" based on modern circumstances, you're kinda... missing the point. And, moreover, it's actually deeply troubling and speaks to some weird shit going on with your own ethics and morality!
Like, I don't think that there are objectively "right" or "wrong" answers to problems that do not exist. But I do think there are right and wrong approaches to those problems, and the wrong approach is definitely to say "nope see the non-humans are the bad guys because they're not humans, they're just robots, they murdered humans, end of story. Bad guys deserve to die, round em up and kill em off. Team Human, wrong or right."
I think that's actually a really dangerous approach to take to the ethical quandary the show is getting you to ask of yourself!
The future is grim indeed.
Nah, being drugged probably has lingering damage so that comparison doesn't work.
That's where the line starts to really get crossed
like if you think about trauma, memory (even if unconscious memory) is a necessary component
:bigfrown:
No they didn't! That's half the point of the show!
There, I just saved you a couple of seasons.
With Westworld we're presented with a situation that's more gray then we're typically shown, nBSG Cylons had some legit concerns but overall they were a race beyond redemption and into mustache twirling villainy on the cosmic scale. Both sides can be good and bad here. Both have legitimate concerns and complains about the other.
2. If you could put cattle through what the hosts went through and deliver an experience as compelling as WestWorld, I guarantee those parks would exist.
and they're viewed as being worse than animals by the people there.
Programming is how they're kept in line, the reason the park don't want them to keep those memories is because they'll act out (as any person in their situations would). They still have lives, loves, hobbies, families, people to live for and jobs.
Cattle are treated horribly, the difference is they're don't think they're people (if the Hosts left their world and moved to a human colony would anybody tell them they're not human on sight? I don't think so) nor are they tortured, murdered or raped by tourists for amusement. The Hosts main function is to do this every day of their lives - which vastly extend outside human timespans.
The whole system is immensely fucked up.
And Delores started like every other Host, they all have the capacity to do this.
well they look like people and act like people.
Switch out the human shells and make them aliens and monsters. Still the same issue?
Not really, people still care about the mute humans in the Planet of the Apes franchise.