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USA Presidential Election 2016: Mr. Trump In the Iron Lung
To hear Trump say it, Paul Ryan and Hillary Clinton may as well be the same person.
He should really get some new accusations to throw at people.
Well, just like Clinton, Paul Ryan failed to personally, directly, prevent all the bad things that apparently happened to America from happening, so yeah, samesies.
A not insignificant portion of his base are literal actual white nationalists, and have been the whole time
Yeah but for this election they've seemingly been avoiding the outright anti semitism. Like actively trying to avoid the outright Hitler comparisons, but there it fuck is.
What worries me about this election (and really, western politics in general right now) is that, at a fundamental level, it's no longer about changing someone's opinion. My cousin I mentioned earlier is reposting all of his anti-Hillary content from various right wing pages and he believes it's all fact. It isn't a matter of opinion for him, his selected reality is telling him that everything he believes is true, that anyone who doesn't believe Hillary Clinton (and consequently, Barack Obama) is a criminal is deluded and I just - where's the crack where the crowbar goes?
How do you work with someone like that? Any facts I put out there are dismissed as 'liberal media', any sources that contradict his worldview are easily dismissed. He's even admitted that he doesn't really care for Trump, but in his words, he's better than 'a criminal and traitor' like Hillary.
If his opinion were 'I think Trump has better policies than Hillary on X, Y and Z', okay, I can argue that. I can present why I disagree with him and, even if he still disagrees at the end of the day, at least there's something there. But like I said - it's not about opinions anymore. It's about competing realities, and I just don't see how you get someone out of that mindset. Which is, frankly, terrifying.
"only trump can protect you" really sums it up well.
I like how there is no mention of Pence.
+1
ahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
siiigghhhh
please remind me that arguiing politics with people who can't vote in the election is pointless.
A former coworker posted a meme with John Wayne saying like "if i was alive, i'd vote for trump. but i'm dead so i'll be voting for hillary"
And I just want to scream.
He's a white, christian, cishet South African who railed and railed about how America needed to just stop all immigration completelt until the immigration system was fixed. And then asked me what I thought about his plans to move to the US.
What worries me about this election (and really, western politics in general right now) is that, at a fundamental level, it's no longer about changing someone's opinion. My cousin I mentioned earlier is reposting all of his anti-Hillary content from various right wing pages and he believes it's all fact. It isn't a matter of opinion for him, his selected reality is telling him that everything he believes is true, that anyone who doesn't believe Hillary Clinton (and consequently, Barack Obama) is a criminal is deluded and I just - where's the crack where the crowbar goes?
How do you work with someone like that? Any facts I put out there are dismissed as 'liberal media', any sources that contradict his worldview are easily dismissed. He's even admitted that he doesn't really care for Trump, but in his words, he's better than 'a criminal and traitor' like Hillary.
If his opinion were 'I think Trump has better policies than Hillary on X, Y and Z', okay, I can argue that. I can present why I disagree with him and, even if he still disagrees at the end of the day, at least there's something there. But like I said - it's not about opinions anymore. It's about competing realities, and I just don't see how you get someone out of that mindset. Which is, frankly, terrifying.
Without completely dismantling the media empire that controls our "realities" you can't. And that's not happening either. We live in a world that peddles easy answers and provides you with all the tools you need to find people who will reinforce your worldview instead of challenging it. And that's so much easier. There's no competing with that, short of educating people from the start to have higher standards for themselves. And even THEN you're competing with everyone else saying "nah screw that noise".
What worries me about this election (and really, western politics in general right now) is that, at a fundamental level, it's no longer about changing someone's opinion. My cousin I mentioned earlier is reposting all of his anti-Hillary content from various right wing pages and he believes it's all fact. It isn't a matter of opinion for him, his selected reality is telling him that everything he believes is true, that anyone who doesn't believe Hillary Clinton (and consequently, Barack Obama) is a criminal is deluded and I just - where's the crack where the crowbar goes?
How do you work with someone like that? Any facts I put out there are dismissed as 'liberal media', any sources that contradict his worldview are easily dismissed. He's even admitted that he doesn't really care for Trump, but in his words, he's better than 'a criminal and traitor' like Hillary.
If his opinion were 'I think Trump has better policies than Hillary on X, Y and Z', okay, I can argue that. I can present why I disagree with him and, even if he still disagrees at the end of the day, at least there's something there. But like I said - it's not about opinions anymore. It's about competing realities, and I just don't see how you get someone out of that mindset. Which is, frankly, terrifying.
there isn't one
I've given up and basically just don't associate with people like that anymore (which is eerily similar to what they do I guess?). I'm basically just praying that more people are educated and intelligent about stuff like this, because you sure as hell can't change minds.
please remind me that arguiing politics with people who can't vote in the election is pointless.
A former coworker posted a meme with John Wayne saying like "if i was alive, i'd vote for trump. but i'm dead so i'll be voting for hillary"
And I just want to scream.
He's a white, christian, cishet South African who railed and railed about how America needed to just stop all immigration completelt until the immigration system was fixed. And then asked me what I thought about his plans to move to the US.
Some people. just. argggggggggggggggggh
"I think they've got more than enough of you already. "
+13
ahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I know my cousin was, once upon a time, a fairly left-wing Canadian, and then he moved to the States and married into an incredibly right-wing, GOP-for-life family (we were at the wedding, and the father got ordained so he could preach a sermon about women deferring to the man of the household, and how it was my cousin's job to rule with a strong hand. It was a glimpse into a reality I have no real contact with on a daily basis).
And I see his two sons growing up surrounded by this and it's just, everyone who says 'we need the old generation to die out and then everything is fine!' is ignoring how many of these people have kids that will be surrounded by this kind of thing from day one. I can only hope that they look at things with a more critical eye and, bit by bit, break the cycle.
WATCH THIS SPACE.
+21
Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
I wonder, honestly, if that's not the real reason republicans are so against making higher education more affordable. One of the only demos that trump really leads in is white males without a college degree. It seems like an awfully elitist sentiment, but very few (if any) of the people I know with any sort of college education are any further right than dead-ass middle of the road. Which is of course highly anecdotal.
It just seems to me that anyone with any intellectual curiosity, honesty, or critical thinking skills would be suckered in by the Republican party's current ideological positions when even twenty minutes of reading suggests that it's all a load of horseshit.
+2
BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
I know my cousin was, once upon a time, a fairly left-wing Canadian, and then he moved to the States and married into an incredibly right-wing, GOP-for-life family (we were at the wedding, and the father got ordained so he could preach a sermon about women deferring to the man of the household, and how it was my cousin's job to rule with a strong hand. It was a glimpse into a reality I have no real contact with on a daily basis).
And I see his two sons growing up surrounded by this and it's just, everyone who says 'we need the old generation to die out and then everything is fine!' is ignoring how many of these people have kids that will be surrounded by this kind of thing from day one. I can only hope that they look at things with a more critical eye and, bit by bit, break the cycle.
I do have some hope for this. David Willis, who writes Dumbing of Age, was raised in a pretty extreme fundamentalist family, but he gradually broke away from that, and is now very much on the liberal, progressive side of the scale. So it's not impossible, just very difficult, and doesn't happen as often as we'd like.
I think there might be a place for the crowbar, if you look in a different way.
The conservative movement tells a story about itself, and it does that very well. The progressive thought process has lots of facts, charts, "reality has a liberal bias" etc. I think no one is telling the progressive story of this country's recent history. I think if we start telling that story, then a number of the sort of people who are persuaded by stories, not by facts, might look at things differently.
But I do not know if anyone has written that story yet. If they have, I don't think I've seen it cracking into our national dialogue.
I wonder, honestly, if that's not the real reason republicans are so against making higher education more affordable. One of the only demos that trump really leads in is white males without a college degree. It seems like an awfully elitist sentiment, but very few (if any) of the people I know with any sort of college education are any further right than dead-ass middle of the road. Which is of course highly anecdotal.
It just seems to me that anyone with any intellectual curiosity, honesty, or critical thinking skills would be suckered in by the Republican party's current ideological positions when even twenty minutes of reading suggests that it's all a load of horseshit.
I don't know if it's necessarily an education thing, so much as 'going to college/university tends to surround you with a more diverse group of people and opinions than you might otherwise surround yourself with.
'As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another' - if you aren't surrounded by people who your political views and socioeconomic status would not naturally surround you with, you're not getting that divergent perspective, and if the people around you are never giving you reason to question your prejudices or preconceptions, why would you necessarily question the more fundamental truths that drive you?
Stuff like this just confirms to me that anyone who believes this kind of shit are just horrible fucking people. I mean obama is right there, charming and normal as fuck, and they likely see that and think "he's way too charming, he must be secretly evil! Because I and everyone I know are awful shitheads who have no sense of humour, and we're definitely decent human folk"
I just love the balls on trump, hes never met a profession that he couldnt do better at sight-unseen, no prep, than someone whos worked in it their entire life
Hes like the kid who always bragged about beating video games really fast. Oh man I beat final fantasy 7 in a night, very easy game, everyone whos still playing it is losers
I have a first grader like that in my class.
I'll share that, for example, I have one brother.
Someone else will share that they have a brother and a sister, a third student will say that they have a really big family, like, 3 brothers and 2 sisters.
Then this kid will raise his hand and say that he has 80 brothers and sisters.
And everyone else in the class will kind of roll their eyes and smile and nod and all know that he is lying but not really care because, you know, it's really low stakes.
And it's kind of cute, because, you know, he's a first grader and wants to seem cool and important.
It isn't very cute at all when you are 70 and running for president.
Stuff like this just confirms to me that anyone who believes this kind of shit are just horrible fucking people. I mean obama is right there, charming and normal as fuck, and they likely see that and think "he's way too charming, he must be secretly evil! Because I and everyone I know are awful shitheads who have no sense of humour, and we're definitely decent human folk"
Also racism and sexism
The thought process is actually reversed. They start with the preconceived hatred of Obama, and then look for things to help them "justify" it. They don't trust his charm because they don't like him, and they're not bad people so clearly HE must be a bad person.
This stuff is making Dennis Reynolds look like a good novelist.
"I removed my robe and stood before her...taut, nubile, proud. She was much, much older than me, but her breasts were awesome. I felt reborn, baptized in erotic majesty."
At best, someone went "something something the mysterious hand of the free market" with regards to private prisons
But mostly they just looked at the fat stacks and their eyes turned into cartoon dollar signs and they got into a car and drove off while smoking cigars
Like it was literally that picture of Rudy and Ailes.
Late, but whatevs. Prison privatization came largely as a result of the war on crime of the 80s. After a bunch if politicians rode into power on policies pursuant to the wars on crime and drugs, they suddenly had to deal with the fact that prisons cost money.
Private companies saw the politicians get flustered in the face of the immediate consequences of their policies, and swooped in with the promise of the private market delivering cheaper and better* prisons. Politicians realized that the general populace cared a lot about the "cheaper" and not really at all about the "better", so they jumped right on board.
*they actually got neither of these.
+5
Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
Can I just say how endearing it is to me personally that Hillary is so interested in the UFO phenomenon?
Like, that's super humanizing.
Also DISCLOSE HILLARY. DISCLOSE AND LET THE WORLD MEET OUR BENEVOLENT EXTRATERRESTRIAL BENEFACTORS AND USHER IN A NEW AGE.
I often wonder if the problem you state above can ever be resolved
Social media and the internet and talk radio and cable news and all this just allow you to live in whatever reality you choose
That won't go away
This has been a problem for a loooooong time, and I'm not even sure how much the internet is really exasperating it. Leave it to Beaver, the Andy Griffith Show, I Love Lucy...national media wasn't really speaking to power in any big way. Local media was really local, so...
At least with the internet theres a good way to access points of view you might not be aware of.
0
Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
Posts
Well, just like Clinton, Paul Ryan failed to personally, directly, prevent all the bad things that apparently happened to America from happening, so yeah, samesies.
We just generally try to move to places where there're enough of us that we don't' have to deal with it.
FFXIV: Tchel Fay
Nintendo ID: Tortalius
Steam: Tortalius
Stream: twitch.tv/tortalius
How do you work with someone like that? Any facts I put out there are dismissed as 'liberal media', any sources that contradict his worldview are easily dismissed. He's even admitted that he doesn't really care for Trump, but in his words, he's better than 'a criminal and traitor' like Hillary.
If his opinion were 'I think Trump has better policies than Hillary on X, Y and Z', okay, I can argue that. I can present why I disagree with him and, even if he still disagrees at the end of the day, at least there's something there. But like I said - it's not about opinions anymore. It's about competing realities, and I just don't see how you get someone out of that mindset. Which is, frankly, terrifying.
I like how there is no mention of Pence.
please remind me that arguiing politics with people who can't vote in the election is pointless.
A former coworker posted a meme with John Wayne saying like "if i was alive, i'd vote for trump. but i'm dead so i'll be voting for hillary"
And I just want to scream.
He's a white, christian, cishet South African who railed and railed about how America needed to just stop all immigration completelt until the immigration system was fixed. And then asked me what I thought about his plans to move to the US.
Some people. just. argggggggggggggggggh
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
Social media and the internet and talk radio and cable news and all this just allow you to live in whatever reality you choose
That won't go away
Yes
Fragment the GOP, you idiots
And then bitch for decades as the Democrats run both the GOP and the Deplorables ragged.
Without completely dismantling the media empire that controls our "realities" you can't. And that's not happening either. We live in a world that peddles easy answers and provides you with all the tools you need to find people who will reinforce your worldview instead of challenging it. And that's so much easier. There's no competing with that, short of educating people from the start to have higher standards for themselves. And even THEN you're competing with everyone else saying "nah screw that noise".
there isn't one
I've given up and basically just don't associate with people like that anymore (which is eerily similar to what they do I guess?). I'm basically just praying that more people are educated and intelligent about stuff like this, because you sure as hell can't change minds.
"I think they've got more than enough of you already. "
we have found the Clinton October Surprise!
Wkikleaks comes through!
http://www.epicurious.com/expert-advice/john-podesta-risotto-tips-article?mbid=social_facebook
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
I know my cousin was, once upon a time, a fairly left-wing Canadian, and then he moved to the States and married into an incredibly right-wing, GOP-for-life family (we were at the wedding, and the father got ordained so he could preach a sermon about women deferring to the man of the household, and how it was my cousin's job to rule with a strong hand. It was a glimpse into a reality I have no real contact with on a daily basis).
And I see his two sons growing up surrounded by this and it's just, everyone who says 'we need the old generation to die out and then everything is fine!' is ignoring how many of these people have kids that will be surrounded by this kind of thing from day one. I can only hope that they look at things with a more critical eye and, bit by bit, break the cycle.
It just seems to me that anyone with any intellectual curiosity, honesty, or critical thinking skills would be suckered in by the Republican party's current ideological positions when even twenty minutes of reading suggests that it's all a load of horseshit.
I do have some hope for this. David Willis, who writes Dumbing of Age, was raised in a pretty extreme fundamentalist family, but he gradually broke away from that, and is now very much on the liberal, progressive side of the scale. So it's not impossible, just very difficult, and doesn't happen as often as we'd like.
The conservative movement tells a story about itself, and it does that very well. The progressive thought process has lots of facts, charts, "reality has a liberal bias" etc. I think no one is telling the progressive story of this country's recent history. I think if we start telling that story, then a number of the sort of people who are persuaded by stories, not by facts, might look at things differently.
But I do not know if anyone has written that story yet. If they have, I don't think I've seen it cracking into our national dialogue.
I don't know if it's necessarily an education thing, so much as 'going to college/university tends to surround you with a more diverse group of people and opinions than you might otherwise surround yourself with.
'As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another' - if you aren't surrounded by people who your political views and socioeconomic status would not naturally surround you with, you're not getting that divergent perspective, and if the people around you are never giving you reason to question your prejudices or preconceptions, why would you necessarily question the more fundamental truths that drive you?
this is cool except he should not have ever ever ever had to acknowledge alex jones, jesus
Stuff like this just confirms to me that anyone who believes this kind of shit are just horrible fucking people. I mean obama is right there, charming and normal as fuck, and they likely see that and think "he's way too charming, he must be secretly evil! Because I and everyone I know are awful shitheads who have no sense of humour, and we're definitely decent human folk"
Also racism and sexism
I have a first grader like that in my class.
I'll share that, for example, I have one brother.
Someone else will share that they have a brother and a sister, a third student will say that they have a really big family, like, 3 brothers and 2 sisters.
Then this kid will raise his hand and say that he has 80 brothers and sisters.
And everyone else in the class will kind of roll their eyes and smile and nod and all know that he is lying but not really care because, you know, it's really low stakes.
And it's kind of cute, because, you know, he's a first grader and wants to seem cool and important.
It isn't very cute at all when you are 70 and running for president.
Hey! I went to college with this dude
Uh, Colin Jones, not Obama
...or Alex Jones
Ah yes, the Second Midnight Amendment
The thought process is actually reversed. They start with the preconceived hatred of Obama, and then look for things to help them "justify" it. They don't trust his charm because they don't like him, and they're not bad people so clearly HE must be a bad person.
Conway is the best campaign manager Trump has had. It's becoming increasingly clear how much of a caveat there is in that sentence.
God, the expression on Anderson Cooper's face there. He is completely out of patience for the Trump campaign
I was just making risotto the other night, and this tip is actually quite important
And then i put on my wizard hat
This will be here until I receive an apology or Weedlordvegeta get any consequences for being a bully
Late, but whatevs. Prison privatization came largely as a result of the war on crime of the 80s. After a bunch if politicians rode into power on policies pursuant to the wars on crime and drugs, they suddenly had to deal with the fact that prisons cost money.
Private companies saw the politicians get flustered in the face of the immediate consequences of their policies, and swooped in with the promise of the private market delivering cheaper and better* prisons. Politicians realized that the general populace cared a lot about the "cheaper" and not really at all about the "better", so they jumped right on board.
*they actually got neither of these.
Like, that's super humanizing.
Also DISCLOSE HILLARY. DISCLOSE AND LET THE WORLD MEET OUR BENEVOLENT EXTRATERRESTRIAL BENEFACTORS AND USHER IN A NEW AGE.
while this is great
imagine a world where journalists did this all the time
This has been a problem for a loooooong time, and I'm not even sure how much the internet is really exasperating it. Leave it to Beaver, the Andy Griffith Show, I Love Lucy...national media wasn't really speaking to power in any big way. Local media was really local, so...
At least with the internet theres a good way to access points of view you might not be aware of.
What, challenged the bullshit claims of a bullshit artist?
Isn't that wht journalists are for, ostensibly?