Since absolutely *everyone* goes to the Bad Place, the journalist could be the best and most virtuous journalist who ever lived
Similar levels of badness should at least imply that like the OG 4, there were obvious failings that we can see as why they 'should' be in the Bad Place.
Chidi may have been the best of them, but his indecisiveness still made everyone around him miserable.
So maybe the most virtuous journalist who ever lived, but so unscrupulous that he refuses to draw conclusions for a story, or something.
If it's just the unintended repercussions that drag them down, anyone would become better just by being in a place where they don't exist.
Remember, everything has negative consequences.
It could be that the reporter uses his/her smartphone, or say runs a blog, so that they're using items daily that cost literal blood money to make.
But in that case, they can't prove their goodness by being in a place that has no phones/internet, and no ethically dubious resource-gathering anywhere (unless the system counts exploitation of Janets and Dereks).
Part of the issue I think is that you’re not just under an obligation to not be bad (avoid getting negative points), you need positive points to get into the Good Place, and pretty much every action you can take that is potentially worth points is outweighed by all the bad points it is getting you. In that respect, Chidi’s indecisiveness is actually an extremely rational response. If we knew all the bad we were doing when we were just trying to be good, we would constantly be paralyzed into inaction.
Jason’s initial facade, the monk that stayed silent, would ironically end up in the Bad Place as well, because sitting atop a mountain meditating ain’t doing anybody any good. So you need to interact with the “web” of humanity to get anywhere, but you’re penalized immediately for even trying.
Shaun’s point, that maybe the interconnectedness of everything just goes to show that humanity actually really sucks and deserves the Bad Place, and that the system is working as intended, actually kind of has some validity to it (not that the demons are better). If interconnectedness led to good outcomes instead of bad, it would result in (any) humans going to the Good Place at all. We have all kind of let a (relative) few bad actors ruin the world for all of us.
I like where the show is heading, philosophically. Is humanity a net good on Earth? Almost certainly not, at least on a macro level. Should the negative actions of the bad actors fuck everything up for the woman with no power to affect any substantial change on that macro scale, who is just trying to do her best day to day? Should she judged according to the shittiness of the rest of humanity? Almost certainly not.
It’ll be interesting to see where the show shakes out and deals with that philosophical contradiction, seeing as Schur shows skew heavily on the optimistic side.
Also based on last week's episode and on Josh's post.
Oh hey here's a shower thought: The System sucks, nothing we can do is fair on a macro and a micro level. Only logical solution: stop with the Places all together. and send everyone who dies straight to oblivion. No more eternal rewards or punishments.
Final scene: John Lennon's Imagine starts playing.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
So what was the deal they made?
Was it that they would re-do the experiment with 4 new subjects and see if the subject did better? How are they measuring "better"?
Part of me wonders if Shaun didn't pick some of the best people he could since they would have very little to actually improve upon.
Was it that they would re-do the experiment with 4 new subjects and see if the subject did better? How are they measuring "better"?
Part of me wonders if Shaun didn't pick some of the best people he could since they would have very little to actually improve upon.
Which is weird.
If the Medium place doesn't have all those externalities for actions, since most items are just poofed into existence, it would be pretty hard to not get a better point total. Even if you were a jerkface you wouldn't get the -1000 points for using a cell phone with conflict minerals to be a jerkface. You'd just get the jerkface points you'd get in either scenario.
Was it that they would re-do the experiment with 4 new subjects and see if the subject did better? How are they measuring "better"?
Part of me wonders if Shaun didn't pick some of the best people he could since they would have very little to actually improve upon.
I think this is the option that I think is most likely.
The goal right is to become better. So who is the hardest people to become better? People that are already great! My guess is that the journalist is a good journalist, he broke stories about sexual harassment by men in power, he goes to war zones to report on the suffering of the poor, etc. How are the Brainy Bunch going to help them improve on that?
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
Was it that they would re-do the experiment with 4 new subjects and see if the subject did better? How are they measuring "better"?
Part of me wonders if Shaun didn't pick some of the best people he could since they would have very little to actually improve upon.
They're measuring 'better' according to their point totals, which they will be keeping track of now. If their point totals are better than they were on earth, it's proof the point system is flawed
Was it that they would re-do the experiment with 4 new subjects and see if the subject did better? How are they measuring "better"?
Part of me wonders if Shaun didn't pick some of the best people he could since they would have very little to actually improve upon.
I think this is the option that I think is most likely.
The goal right is to become better. So who is the hardest people to become better? People that are already great! My guess is that the journalist is a good journalist, he broke stories about sexual harassment by men in power, he goes to war zones to report on the suffering of the poor, etc. How are the Brainy Bunch going to help them improve on that?
Point: one of the rules they established was that the new people have to be the same level of badness as the original four.
Was it that they would re-do the experiment with 4 new subjects and see if the subject did better? How are they measuring "better"?
Part of me wonders if Shaun didn't pick some of the best people he could since they would have very little to actually improve upon.
I think this is the option that I think is most likely.
The goal right is to become better. So who is the hardest people to become better? People that are already great! My guess is that the journalist is a good journalist, he broke stories about sexual harassment by men in power, he goes to war zones to report on the suffering of the poor, etc. How are the Brainy Bunch going to help them improve on that?
Point: one of the rules they established was that the new people have to be the same level of badness as the original four.
ah, right. Good point! I rescind my prediction!
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Was it that they would re-do the experiment with 4 new subjects and see if the subject did better? How are they measuring "better"?
Part of me wonders if Shaun didn't pick some of the best people he could since they would have very little to actually improve upon.
I think this is the option that I think is most likely.
The goal right is to become better. So who is the hardest people to become better? People that are already great! My guess is that the journalist is a good journalist, he broke stories about sexual harassment by men in power, he goes to war zones to report on the suffering of the poor, etc. How are the Brainy Bunch going to help them improve on that?
Point: one of the rules they established was that the new people have to be the same level of badness as the original four.
I forgot about that, hm, the inevitable twist will be interesting then
I mean, they're demons. They're all about breaking rules (see their janky portal to Earth earlier in the season). There's no telling what could happen.
I mean, they're demons. They're all about breaking rules (see their janky portal to Earth earlier in the season). There's no telling what could happen.
Ehh... I know Shaun is evil, but I don't think he's that stupid.
The rules by the Judge seemed pretty clear. And she seemed pretty on-board with this whole experiment.
Ignoring the rules is gonna get Shaun "retired". Or worse.
I mean, they're demons. They're all about breaking rules (see their janky portal to Earth earlier in the season). There's no telling what could happen.
Worse; they're about just bad enough to barely skirt the word of law, while maintaining plausible deniability
I mean, they're demons. They're all about breaking rules (see their janky portal to Earth earlier in the season). There's no telling what could happen.
Ehh... I know Shaun is evil, but I don't think he's that stupid.
The rules by the Judge seemed pretty clear. And she seemed pretty on-board with this whole experiment.
Ignoring the rules is gonna get Shaun "retired". Or worse.
I could see that happening, too.
This show has infinite possibilities, like a time-knife+1.
They should definitely have an actor “playing himself.”
Shit, they should double down on the Entourage joke and have Jeremy Piven playing himself.
Though, the Jeremy Piven thing might hit a bit too close to home.
I can't watch this right now because I have to wait for my wife, so instead I will suggest that I would love to see someone "playing themselves" the way Character Actress Margo Martindale plays herself on Bojack Horseman.
Actually, let's just full on do Character Actress Margo Martindale.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I despise Chidi for that decision. Instead of dealing with the goddamned universal human affliction of awkwardly dealing with an ex, he offloaded all of his neuroses and pains to the rest of the group and Eleanor in particular, the woman he purported to love. He did this, ending an otherwise ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP, FOREVER, instead of doing something mildly difficult. That is the action of a deeply selfish, shitty person, and I didn't feel a wink of sadness for that relationship ending, just the other three members of the group + Michael and Janet. Unbelievable.
I respect the Carl Sagan speech Janet gave at the end but dang that episode did not back up that message at all.
Eddy on
"and the morning stars I have seen
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
I despise Chidi for that decision. Instead of dealing with the goddamned universal human affliction of awkwardly dealing with an ex, he offloaded all of his neuroses and pains to the rest of the group and Eleanor in particular, the woman he purported to love. He did this, ending an otherwise ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP, FOREVER, instead of doing something mildly difficult. That is the action of a deeply selfish, shitty person, and I didn't feel a wink of sadness for that relationship ending, just the other three members of the group + Michael and Janet. Unbelievable.
I respect the Carl Sagan speech Janet gave at the end but dang that episode did not back up that message at all.
I disagree.
While it's super frustrating, I think Chidi was right. It absolutely sucks that his neuroses are still at the point where he couldn't hold it together around his ex, but I agree with him that he wouldn't have been able to do it. The stakes are too high. While it would be a total cop-out to just give him back his memories at the end of the year they get to prove that people can improve in general, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that once that year is over, all the participants are told about the experiment. At that point, there would be nothing to stop Chidi and Eleanor from rebuilding their relationship. Maybe she would again tell him everything, maybe they build something new, but this is only one year out of eternity. They've found their way to each other before, why couldn't they do it one more time?
I also feel like this is kind of heading off another possible Chidi problem - remember when they were in the Bad Place and he had a freakout about lying? I can see that happening again - "I'm teaching moral philosophy but I'm lying by omission. And now my stomach hurts," would really be a lot less interesting to retread. Allowing Chidi to believe that he's in the real Good Place may actually help them in some ways. Or maybe this show is forking impossible to predict and they'll do something totally different.
Maybe Eleanor will have to watch Chidi and Simone fall in love again. As I type this, I'm starting to think that maybe she sees Chidi help Simone like he helped her and she has to let them fall in love again for the sake of the immortal souls of everyone. Their relationship actually seemed to be pretty good the first time around, maybe Simone is the one who helps Chidi become a better person this time. The original fake Good Place had fake soul mates. Maybe this time the show addresses the concept of soul mates and comes to the conclusion that they aren't real. As happy as Chidi and Eleanor were together, Chidi and Simone could be just as happy, if the circumstances had been different. There are some interesting places this could go.
So, two contestants left to reveal.
I'm guessing Eleanor's mom, and Donkey Doug or Pillboi (probably Doug).
Oh! Or Doug Forcett! That'd really twist the knife, but they did say that he had a pretty high score, so he's probably well outside the 'same general level of badness' criteria.
So, two contestants left to reveal.
I'm guessing Eleanor's mom, and Donkey Doug or Pillboi (probably Doug).
Oh! Or Doug Forcett! That'd really twist the knife, but they did say that he had a pretty high score, so he's probably well outside the 'same general level of badness' criteria.
And I hope it's not
Eleanor's mum because while I think she's a scumbag who doesn't deserve her happy ending, her new family would be left suffering for her loss.
So, two contestants left to reveal.
I'm guessing Eleanor's mom, and Donkey Doug or Pillboi (probably Doug).
Oh! Or Doug Forcett! That'd really twist the knife, but they did say that he had a pretty high score, so he's probably well outside the 'same general level of badness' criteria.
And I hope it's not
Eleanor's mum because while I think she's a scumbag who doesn't deserve her happy ending, her new family would be left suffering for her loss.
If she's trying to pass herself off as an architect, anyone who knew her on Earth would need to have their memories wiped to keep the thing going. For Simone that's just a few months, but doing it to anyone who knew her long-term would need them to wipe so much they wouldn't be recognisable.
I despise Chidi for that decision. Instead of dealing with the goddamned universal human affliction of awkwardly dealing with an ex, he offloaded all of his neuroses and pains to the rest of the group and Eleanor in particular, the woman he purported to love. He did this, ending an otherwise ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP, FOREVER, instead of doing something mildly difficult. That is the action of a deeply selfish, shitty person, and I didn't feel a wink of sadness for that relationship ending, just the other three members of the group + Michael and Janet. Unbelievable.
I respect the Carl Sagan speech Janet gave at the end but dang that episode did not back up that message at all.
I totally disagree with your take
It's not the universal problem of dealing with an ex. It's a different problem: concealing an entire relationship and years of connection and knowledge from someone who has been mindwiped. Firm sci-fi territory.
This is not something mildly difficult. It's not just being civil and enduring. The challenge is prolonged deception, something Chidi is very bad at. And, as alleged, the person in question is very perceptive and hard to deceive.
I would also note that, if they're successful, the relationship would almost certainly resume, as it has countless times. And if they fail, their relationship would be ended, because they would be consigned to torture and damnation. So he's not sacrificing their relationship--he's weighing the options for how to best preserve it.
And, finally, the stakes are cosmically high. The stakes are not an evening of discomfort or the loss of a possible friendship with an ex. The stakes are the eternal damnation of all human beings, in perpetuity, the highest possible stakes imaginable. He can't afford to take even a small risk of damaging their experiment, and I don't think it's a small risk.
On a meta note, it's clear that the show has framed Chidi's decision as correct and noble. It's almost certain that, if he stayed and tried, he would disrupt the experiment and consign humanity to eternal hell. So it's pretty much incorrect to despise Chidi, because he has, by narrative fiat, made the right choice; if you don't find that convincing, then the problem would be with the plausibility of the scenario or the challenge, not with Chidi's moral character. In the context of the show he is acting tremendously selflessly.
This season finale feels like a let down, because for an episode centered around world building, you would expect a lot more world building.
Also, I think the upcoming complication will be...
The original premise of the show is that the characters knew that the good place was super hard to get into, so part of the motivation for becoming better was to prove that they belonged. It's similar to how Calvinism was supposed to work. Two of the characters knew that didn't belong and tried to get better to blend in, and two of them thought they belonged but had terrible insecurities.
These new characters have no real reason to see themselves as a one in a million good person. So they have no real motivation to get better because they all can already believe they're good enough.and no one will be allowed to explain that they should get better for the sake of the experiment because that will corrupt the motivation.
It might have been more interesting if they went with 300 new people instead of 4, too see the entire society develop organically, rather than a small handful.
This season finale feels like a let down, because for an episode centered around world building, you would expect a lot more world building.
Also, I think the upcoming complication will be...
The original premise of the show is that the characters knew that the good place was super hard to get into, so part of the motivation for becoming better was to prove that they belonged. It's similar to how Calvinism was supposed to work. Two of the characters knew that didn't belong and tried to get better to blend in, and two of them thought they belonged but had terrible insecurities.
These new characters have no real reason to see themselves as a one in a million good person. So they have no real motivation to get better because they all can already believe they're good enough.and no one will be allowed to explain that they should get better for the sake of the experiment because that will corrupt the motivation.
It might have been more interesting if they went with 300 new people instead of 4, too see the entire society develop organically, rather than a small handful.
The idea behind that is they're supposed to be replicating the previous experiment, which had only 4 humans. If this proves, they could try to expand to a full neighborhood of people.
This episode honestly moved at a slower clip than the others. If it had been series finale, I think it would've been a good way to go out. But since we know there's going to be another season, and given this was the season finale, I feel like more could've been done. (They've certainly done more in similar timeframes. "Janets" in particular was masterful from this season)
"Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
The real experiment isn't how the 4 new people do, but how the original 4 people do faced with a new, more difficult task to replicate their own personal improvements.
I think Michael faked his fear to force Eleanor into the Architect role, making her use her negative traits for good. He's a super-intelligent being. There's no possible way he didn't foresee this outcome. Hell, Tahani figured it out almost immediately. This is part of his plan.
Tahani had the initial urge to insult John but immediately thought better of it and instead tried to befriend him.
Chidi made the ultimate decision -- to alter himself completely to spare the "lives" of others.
Eleanor is the only one to make a sacrifice (thus far, anyway). She could have argued against Chidi erasing his memory (for her benefit, of course), but did not, knowing the hell she'd ultimately have to go through.
All of those are definitely traits we wouldn't see from them pre-Good Place.
We haven't seen what Jason is going to struggle with yet, but hopefully it's funny.
Shawn thinks he's getting one over on Michael and the 4, but I think Michael knows better. I'm almost certain the Judge knows what's going on. She's also too smart to not see everything going on.
Ultimately, I think the new experiment will be a success and the whole thing is reset via Jeremy Bearimy and we go right back to where we started.
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Jason’s initial facade, the monk that stayed silent, would ironically end up in the Bad Place as well, because sitting atop a mountain meditating ain’t doing anybody any good. So you need to interact with the “web” of humanity to get anywhere, but you’re penalized immediately for even trying.
Shaun’s point, that maybe the interconnectedness of everything just goes to show that humanity actually really sucks and deserves the Bad Place, and that the system is working as intended, actually kind of has some validity to it (not that the demons are better). If interconnectedness led to good outcomes instead of bad, it would result in (any) humans going to the Good Place at all. We have all kind of let a (relative) few bad actors ruin the world for all of us.
I like where the show is heading, philosophically. Is humanity a net good on Earth? Almost certainly not, at least on a macro level. Should the negative actions of the bad actors fuck everything up for the woman with no power to affect any substantial change on that macro scale, who is just trying to do her best day to day? Should she judged according to the shittiness of the rest of humanity? Almost certainly not.
It’ll be interesting to see where the show shakes out and deals with that philosophical contradiction, seeing as Schur shows skew heavily on the optimistic side.
Final scene: John Lennon's Imagine starts playing.
Part of me wonders if Shaun didn't pick some of the best people he could since they would have very little to actually improve upon.
Which is weird.
I think this is the option that I think is most likely.
Point: one of the rules they established was that the new people have to be the same level of badness as the original four.
ah, right. Good point! I rescind my prediction!
I forgot about that, hm, the inevitable twist will be interesting then
Ehh... I know Shaun is evil, but I don't think he's that stupid.
The rules by the Judge seemed pretty clear. And she seemed pretty on-board with this whole experiment.
Ignoring the rules is gonna get Shaun "retired". Or worse.
Worse; they're about just bad enough to barely skirt the word of law, while maintaining plausible deniability
So you get people who were really good, but point-wise, wound up around the same total score due to lots of unintended consequences.
I hope it’s Bruce Campbell.
I could see that happening, too.
This show has infinite possibilities, like a time-knife+1.
Oh man, this would be amazing.
They should definitely have an actor “playing himself.”
Shit, they should double down on the Entourage joke and have Jeremy Piven playing himself.
Though, the Jeremy Piven thing might hit a bit too close to home.
that was something.
I mean, it should be obvious at this point, but I did not see that coming.
I can't watch this right now because I have to wait for my wife, so instead I will suggest that I would love to see someone "playing themselves" the way Character Actress Margo Martindale plays herself on Bojack Horseman.
Actually, let's just full on do Character Actress Margo Martindale.
I don't know, Eleanor was a real Arizona trash bag. Have you people forgotten her flashbacks?
I respect the Carl Sagan speech Janet gave at the end but dang that episode did not back up that message at all.
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
I disagree.
I also feel like this is kind of heading off another possible Chidi problem - remember when they were in the Bad Place and he had a freakout about lying? I can see that happening again - "I'm teaching moral philosophy but I'm lying by omission. And now my stomach hurts," would really be a lot less interesting to retread. Allowing Chidi to believe that he's in the real Good Place may actually help them in some ways. Or maybe this show is forking impossible to predict and they'll do something totally different.
Maybe Eleanor will have to watch Chidi and Simone fall in love again. As I type this, I'm starting to think that maybe she sees Chidi help Simone like he helped her and she has to let them fall in love again for the sake of the immortal souls of everyone. Their relationship actually seemed to be pretty good the first time around, maybe Simone is the one who helps Chidi become a better person this time. The original fake Good Place had fake soul mates. Maybe this time the show addresses the concept of soul mates and comes to the conclusion that they aren't real. As happy as Chidi and Eleanor were together, Chidi and Simone could be just as happy, if the circumstances had been different. There are some interesting places this could go.
I'm guessing Eleanor's mom, and Donkey Doug or Pillboi (probably Doug).
Oh! Or Doug Forcett! That'd really twist the knife, but they did say that he had a pretty high score, so he's probably well outside the 'same general level of badness' criteria.
Or Stone Cold Steve Austin.
I totally disagree with your take
This is not something mildly difficult. It's not just being civil and enduring. The challenge is prolonged deception, something Chidi is very bad at. And, as alleged, the person in question is very perceptive and hard to deceive.
I would also note that, if they're successful, the relationship would almost certainly resume, as it has countless times. And if they fail, their relationship would be ended, because they would be consigned to torture and damnation. So he's not sacrificing their relationship--he's weighing the options for how to best preserve it.
And, finally, the stakes are cosmically high. The stakes are not an evening of discomfort or the loss of a possible friendship with an ex. The stakes are the eternal damnation of all human beings, in perpetuity, the highest possible stakes imaginable. He can't afford to take even a small risk of damaging their experiment, and I don't think it's a small risk.
On a meta note, it's clear that the show has framed Chidi's decision as correct and noble. It's almost certain that, if he stayed and tried, he would disrupt the experiment and consign humanity to eternal hell. So it's pretty much incorrect to despise Chidi, because he has, by narrative fiat, made the right choice; if you don't find that convincing, then the problem would be with the plausibility of the scenario or the challenge, not with Chidi's moral character. In the context of the show he is acting tremendously selflessly.
Also, I think the upcoming complication will be...
These new characters have no real reason to see themselves as a one in a million good person. So they have no real motivation to get better because they all can already believe they're good enough.and no one will be allowed to explain that they should get better for the sake of the experiment because that will corrupt the motivation.
It might have been more interesting if they went with 300 new people instead of 4, too see the entire society develop organically, rather than a small handful.
The idea behind that is they're supposed to be replicating the previous experiment, which had only 4 humans. If this proves, they could try to expand to a full neighborhood of people.
This episode honestly moved at a slower clip than the others. If it had been series finale, I think it would've been a good way to go out. But since we know there's going to be another season, and given this was the season finale, I feel like more could've been done. (They've certainly done more in similar timeframes. "Janets" in particular was masterful from this season)
I think Michael faked his fear to force Eleanor into the Architect role, making her use her negative traits for good. He's a super-intelligent being. There's no possible way he didn't foresee this outcome. Hell, Tahani figured it out almost immediately. This is part of his plan.
Tahani had the initial urge to insult John but immediately thought better of it and instead tried to befriend him.
Chidi made the ultimate decision -- to alter himself completely to spare the "lives" of others.
Eleanor is the only one to make a sacrifice (thus far, anyway). She could have argued against Chidi erasing his memory (for her benefit, of course), but did not, knowing the hell she'd ultimately have to go through.
All of those are definitely traits we wouldn't see from them pre-Good Place.
We haven't seen what Jason is going to struggle with yet, but hopefully it's funny.
Shawn thinks he's getting one over on Michael and the 4, but I think Michael knows better. I'm almost certain the Judge knows what's going on. She's also too smart to not see everything going on.
Ultimately, I think the new experiment will be a success and the whole thing is reset via Jeremy Bearimy and we go right back to where we started.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH