I think FFXV is beyond the ability of minor tweaks to repair. It's not just about the cut scenes of what the NPCs are up to, it's about the main cast being involved in the story throughout. TBH, anything less than a full remake of the story wouldn't be enough to get another playthrough from me. Not that I expect FFXV: A Story Reborn; that kind of treatment makes sense for an MMO but not for a single player game. Ultimately I hope that what Square learns from these criticisms is to make a great game at release and not years later.
Yeah the tones of each of the game's two halves and the characters are just written in such a specific way, that I don't really know how you would fix it.
The back half is full of lots of cut scenes and plot dumps, swerves, yet it's gameplay pretty much involves you just walking down narrow corridors and train cars. Adding more cutscenes will pretty much just make it feel even more of player-agency free slog.
And the first half is just so narratively empty and purposefully low stakes, and except for a couple skirmishes with the empire, the cast is pretty divorced from everything else that's going in the world, and I don't know how you can change that. I'm not sure where you would even begin to stick new cutscenes in, or how they can matter. The story sequences we that are ALREADY in the first half mostly feel lightweight as it is. Maybe you can have Noctis get a backstory vision/flashback each time he gets a new royal arm, because that's a thing that happens in RPGs? I guess Lunafreya could use more flashbacks, but I don't see cutting back to her sitting in a room and occasionally talking to summons really doing much to improve her character.
And yeah, not "doing much to improve' is something I kind of realize of how I feel about FFXV as a whole. Paradoxically, to me, it feels like there's a lot missing from the game, I at the same time feel like I've really seen all there is to see about this story, this world, and these characters, and any additions will just feel like a marginal improvement at best.
FFXV's world and people just feel kind of empty to me, which is a shame as it makes me realise how richer past games were right out of the box. In each of the Ivalice games, even if when the camera is on a small batch of characters, and you're witnessing only one plot thread of many, you still FEEL the weight of history in them. It makes me really look forward to playing XII in HD. And even when the XIII games stumble, their world is just so freaking WEIRD, and the melodrama was so high that it at least kept me intrigued as where it was all going. I really don't feel any of that with XV...
im only a few chapters in and I've basically stopped running around on foot. it makes no sense for the empire to always know exactly where I am and they drop just so damn frequently it's infuriating. I just had to get a sidequest item with wild animals around it. Imperials dropped twice while fighting the one pack of animals
At the ripe ol' age of 37 36 Basch was deemed too old.
I suppose in Japan guys have their own version of the "Christmas cake" too.
Cid is 32 in Final fantasy 7.
Hah that is right! The way he is portrayed you'd expect him to be like, 50s at least. Man for a nation that has generally higher than average life expectancy than the rest of the developed world they do have weird ideas about what "old" is.
Woman over 25? Spinster.
Man in his 30s? Old Man.
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
In the Final Fantasy games I've enjoyed, there was a sense of culture and place. X, XII, and Tactics are brimming with it. Same with the first continent in IX. VI is underrated in this area.
XV feels a lot like VIII to me in this regard. A lot of anachronistic things mushed together in the hope that it'll be interesting ("A modern luxury car and smart phones rubbing up against glowing crystal formations and old gods? Wow!"), but there's little connective tissue making it feel coherent. Nothing about XV's world feels legitimate. And, like you say, the tone is off from the start.
Moreover, 16-bit characters in a modern looking world isn't going to cut it any more (seriously, the bros are less fleshed out than the bulk of VI's crew), especially not when we're used to BioWare, and R*, and Telltale Games, and Naughty Dog, and a host of other studios pumping out better gameplay and better characters as a matter of course every few years. I'm currently playing Watch_Dogs 2, and the Dedsec crew feels a lot more real than XV's.
SE needs to raise the bar with Final Fantasy, across the board. XV sits in this weird place where it's not a very good open world game, and it's not a very good RPG. And that's just not good enough in 2017.
I think that the best example of the problems I have with FFXV's narrative can be be summed up with how it handles who I think is the game's actual true villain:
Ending spoilers
It's Ifrit. Read up on the lore, and he's pretty much the cause of everything. He betrayed all the other gods, he caused the plague that jump started all the crap that followed. He really should be Ardyn's own Zeromus/Jenova/Ultimacia/Yu Yevon etc.
But except for (a rather unecessary) flash forward at the games beginning, and taking TWO summons to bring down, the game basically treats him as just another obstacle. No build up, no dialogue (besides some stuff Shiva says...in a language you can't even understand), no catharsis where it should be. Ardyn just says he doesn't like humans, and there may be some blurb if you find one of the text dump books in a random gas station. This is the origin point of all the characters suffering, and it's given not an ounce of proper importance.
FFXV is a game where you take down Satan and no one really seems to care
Yeah, I haven't really even touched on that in any of my discussion of XV since there's so much else to despise.
But the open world bit is so disconnected, and there's so very little sense of urgency that the whole thing feels like a giant wash. The bros are basically outcasts from their home city, but they don't feel like it. They're just cruising around all leisurely in their super nice royal car that stands out like a sore thumb compared to everything else. They're fishing, camping, racing chocobos, and picking flowers like they don't have a care in the world. It just doesn't make any sense.
And then let's talk about the people in the world of Lucia. You've got the Crown Prince, who after like 2 chapters is basically the un-coronated king. And yet they all treat him like he's some commoner pleb who has all the time in the world to do trivial tasks for them. Or tasks so ridiculous and dangerous that you would never send your king to do them.
Unless maybe... what if.... what if the whole world is against Noctis, and all these fetch quests, hunts, and "go steal X item from a nasty beast" quests are an elaborate plot to indirectly assassinate the king. What if the entire open world segment is a giant regicide plot and we're playing right into it by doing all this dumb shit for these people.
"Noctis, go up on that hill where the giant 4-winged raven is and get me a ruby. I sure don't hope you die while you're up there. That sure would be a shame." /hands wringing
How LD50 would have directed the story for FFXV (major spoilers follow):
I would have told the story in 5 acts (or 3 acts with intro and conclusion):
Act 1: Would be similar to the introduction to XV (contained in the same desert area) except:
There would have been less side content (just enough to get the players adapted to the way side quests work in XV.
Cor would have been a side character the entire act.
Cor would have been a plot vehicle to cover the plot content that was in kingsglaive and also plot content to humanize Noctis' father and parallel Noctis' journey with his father's. Think flashbacks and campfire stories.
Ravus would be pushed as the face of the empire.
Act 2: Would be the Duscae area, and all the events that lead up to leaving it.
Would shift focus away from the past and more on Noct's bros and their camaraderie.
Would focus more on the imperial threat. Ravus would be villain numero uno throughout this segment (IE we'd see him more than once, jesus christ).
Would have significantly less side content than it currently does. Side content would be restricted to story focused side content (like stuff about the hunters and the role that they play now vs the role that they played in the past, along with more lighthearted stuff like chocobo related quests.)
Would involve the car being unavailable at the beginning of the zone to introduce chocobos as a means of better on-foot exploration without it seeming like the bros are being side tracked.
Act 3: Altissa. Altissa would remain the same except:
Luna would not die here.
Instead of Luna's death, the big reveal here would be the reveal of Noctis' ultimate fate, and the simultaneous humanization of Ravus (Ravus and his motivations revolving around Luna's fate being tied to that of a prince who's doomed to die and whatnot).
Ardyn would step forward as the primary villain, and Ravus might as well die here (well, maybe not die, but at least be removed from the narrative for the time being -- maybe just have him carted off and have control of the army be transfered to Ardyn after Ravus' failure to betray his sister or something).
Act 4: Tenebrae and the journey to the Empire. The tenebrae section should be turned into an actual zone of the same magnitude as Duscae:
Some of the side content cut from acts one and two should be transplanted here. It should remain story focused as well, else we run into the feeling of dallying in the face of the end of the world.
Focus on the longer nights should be more subtle, over a longer period of time and told first through gameplay mechanics and through narrative second.
Should focus on the bros and Noctis coming to terms with Noctis' future sacrifice.
Should focus on the empire's leadership crumbling under the darkness/insanity/demons.
Aranea should be a permanent party member throughout this segment.
Some of the plot vomit about demons and darkness and MTs all packed into chapter 13 should be moved here as primary quests and side quest content before we reach the empire. The actual empire segment can be shortened significantly as a result. It should still culminate in demon infused Ravus battle (but Luna is there this time so we have someone there who actually has an emotional connection to him), and with Noctis getting sucked into the crystal.
Better audio balance in the crystal scene.
Some explanation as to the role of Ifrit in the current cosmology and his relation to ardyn.
Act 5: Return to Insomnia.
A better explanation of the time skip.
Luna is alive and leading/organizing the Hunter movement.
Open world exploration, but only of the same area as act 1.
Side quests probably limited to hunts. Maybe one or two story focused side quests revolving around the state of humanity post darkness.
Ifrit battle would have the proper narrative focus surrounding it, given his place and role in the cosmology.
Ifrit's defeat would only be possible through Luna's sacrifice. IE: Luna would die here to make it possible for Noctis to move forward.
How LD50 would have directed the story for FFXV (major spoilers follow):
I would have told the story in 5 acts (or 3 acts with intro and conclusion):
Act 1: Would be similar to the introduction to XV (contained in the same desert area) except:
There would have been less side content (just enough to get the players adapted to the way side quests work in XV.
Cor would have been a side character the entire act.
Cor would have been a plot vehicle to cover the plot content that was in kingsglaive and also plot content to humanize Noctis' father and parallel Noctis' journey with his father's. Think flashbacks and campfire stories.
Ravus would be pushed as the face of the empire.
Act 2: Would be the Duscae area, and all the events that lead up to leaving it.
Would shift focus away from the past and more on Noct's bros and their camaraderie.
Would focus more on the imperial threat. Ravus would be villain numero uno throughout this segment (IE we'd see him more than once, jesus christ).
Would have significantly less side content than it currently does. Side content would be restricted to story focused side content (like stuff about the hunters and the role that they play now vs the role that they played in the past, along with more lighthearted stuff like chocobo related quests.)
Would involve the car being unavailable at the beginning of the zone to introduce chocobos as a means of better on-foot exploration without it seeming like the bros are being side tracked.
Act 3: Altissa. Altissa would remain the same except:
Luna would not die here.
Instead of Luna's death, the big reveal here would be the reveal of Noctis' ultimate fate, and the simultaneous humanization of Ravus (Ravus and his motivations revolving around Luna's fate being tied to that of a prince who's doomed to die and whatnot).
Ardyn would step forward as the primary villain, and Ravus might as well die here (well, maybe not die, but at least be removed from the narrative for the time being -- maybe just have him carted off and have control of the army be transfered to Ardyn after Ravus' failure to betray his sister or something).
Act 4: Tenebrae and the journey to the Empire. The tenebrae section should be turned into an actual zone of the same magnitude as Duscae:
Some of the side content cut from acts one and two should be transplanted here. It should remain story focused as well, else we run into the feeling of dallying in the face of the end of the world.
Focus on the longer nights should be more subtle, over a longer period of time and told first through gameplay mechanics and through narrative second.
Should focus on the bros and Noctis coming to terms with Noctis' future sacrifice.
Should focus on the empire's leadership crumbling under the darkness/insanity/demons.
Aranea should be a permanent party member throughout this segment.
Some of the plot vomit about demons and darkness and MTs all packed into chapter 13 should be moved here as primary quests and side quest content before we reach the empire. The actual empire segment can be shortened significantly as a result. It should still culminate in demon infused Ravus battle (but Luna is there this time so we have someone there who actually has an emotional connection to him), and with Noctis getting sucked into the crystal.
Better audio balance in the crystal scene.
Some explanation as to the role of Ifrit in the current cosmology and his relation to ardyn.
Act 5: Return to Insomnia.
A better explanation of the time skip.
Luna is alive and leading/organizing the Hunter movement.
Open world exploration, but only of the same area as act 1.
Side quests probably limited to hunts. Maybe one or two story focused side quests revolving around the state of humanity post darkness.
Ifrit battle would have the proper narrative focus surrounding it, given his place and role in the cosmology.
Ifrit's defeat would only be possible through Luna's sacrifice. IE: Luna would die here to make it possible for Noctis to move forward.
Final battle against Ardyn would be fun.
The actual end would be the same.
This would be a way better game.
Lucascraft on
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
FYI it's the second anniversary of FFRK and they are giving away a ton of stuff starting tomorrow. Now is a good time to get back in or try for the first time.
How LD50 would have directed the story for FFXV (major spoilers follow):
I would have told the story in 5 acts (or 3 acts with intro and conclusion):
Act 1: Would be similar to the introduction to XV (contained in the same desert area) except:
There would have been less side content (just enough to get the players adapted to the way side quests work in XV.
Cor would have been a side character the entire act.
Cor would have been a plot vehicle to cover the plot content that was in kingsglaive and also plot content to humanize Noctis' father and parallel Noctis' journey with his father's. Think flashbacks and campfire stories.
Ravus would be pushed as the face of the empire.
Act 2: Would be the Duscae area, and all the events that lead up to leaving it.
Would shift focus away from the past and more on Noct's bros and their camaraderie.
Would focus more on the imperial threat. Ravus would be villain numero uno throughout this segment (IE we'd see him more than once, jesus christ).
Would have significantly less side content than it currently does. Side content would be restricted to story focused side content (like stuff about the hunters and the role that they play now vs the role that they played in the past, along with more lighthearted stuff like chocobo related quests.)
Would involve the car being unavailable at the beginning of the zone to introduce chocobos as a means of better on-foot exploration without it seeming like the bros are being side tracked.
Act 3: Altissa. Altissa would remain the same except:
Luna would not die here.
Instead of Luna's death, the big reveal here would be the reveal of Noctis' ultimate fate, and the simultaneous humanization of Ravus (Ravus and his motivations revolving around Luna's fate being tied to that of a prince who's doomed to die and whatnot).
Ardyn would step forward as the primary villain, and Ravus might as well die here (well, maybe not die, but at least be removed from the narrative for the time being -- maybe just have him carted off and have control of the army be transfered to Ardyn after Ravus' failure to betray his sister or something).
Act 4: Tenebrae and the journey to the Empire. The tenebrae section should be turned into an actual zone of the same magnitude as Duscae:
Some of the side content cut from acts one and two should be transplanted here. It should remain story focused as well, else we run into the feeling of dallying in the face of the end of the world.
Focus on the longer nights should be more subtle, over a longer period of time and told first through gameplay mechanics and through narrative second.
Should focus on the bros and Noctis coming to terms with Noctis' future sacrifice.
Should focus on the empire's leadership crumbling under the darkness/insanity/demons.
Aranea should be a permanent party member throughout this segment.
Some of the plot vomit about demons and darkness and MTs all packed into chapter 13 should be moved here as primary quests and side quest content before we reach the empire. The actual empire segment can be shortened significantly as a result. It should still culminate in demon infused Ravus battle (but Luna is there this time so we have someone there who actually has an emotional connection to him), and with Noctis getting sucked into the crystal.
Better audio balance in the crystal scene.
Some explanation as to the role of Ifrit in the current cosmology and his relation to ardyn.
Act 5: Return to Insomnia.
A better explanation of the time skip.
Luna is alive and leading/organizing the Hunter movement.
Open world exploration, but only of the same area as act 1.
Side quests probably limited to hunts. Maybe one or two story focused side quests revolving around the state of humanity post darkness.
Ifrit battle would have the proper narrative focus surrounding it, given his place and role in the cosmology.
Ifrit's defeat would only be possible through Luna's sacrifice. IE: Luna would die here to make it possible for Noctis to move forward.
Final battle against Ardyn would be fun.
The actual end would be the same.
This would be a way better game.
Just making....
Luna a real character instead of a refrigerated info dump
I would also like some better indication that the world has been saved after Noctis' sacrifice. I saw the sun rise over a lifeless world and it was not comforting. You sort of have to assume there are still people around to rebuild. Some joy in the world's salvation by those who remain before cutting to Noctis and Luna in the crystal would have gone a long way.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
How LD50 would have directed the story for FFXV (major spoilers follow):
I would have told the story in 5 acts (or 3 acts with intro and conclusion):
Act 1: Would be similar to the introduction to XV (contained in the same desert area) except:
There would have been less side content (just enough to get the players adapted to the way side quests work in XV.
Cor would have been a side character the entire act.
Cor would have been a plot vehicle to cover the plot content that was in kingsglaive and also plot content to humanize Noctis' father and parallel Noctis' journey with his father's. Think flashbacks and campfire stories.
Ravus would be pushed as the face of the empire.
Act 2: Would be the Duscae area, and all the events that lead up to leaving it.
Would shift focus away from the past and more on Noct's bros and their camaraderie.
Would focus more on the imperial threat. Ravus would be villain numero uno throughout this segment (IE we'd see him more than once, jesus christ).
Would have significantly less side content than it currently does. Side content would be restricted to story focused side content (like stuff about the hunters and the role that they play now vs the role that they played in the past, along with more lighthearted stuff like chocobo related quests.)
Would involve the car being unavailable at the beginning of the zone to introduce chocobos as a means of better on-foot exploration without it seeming like the bros are being side tracked.
Act 3: Altissa. Altissa would remain the same except:
Luna would not die here.
Instead of Luna's death, the big reveal here would be the reveal of Noctis' ultimate fate, and the simultaneous humanization of Ravus (Ravus and his motivations revolving around Luna's fate being tied to that of a prince who's doomed to die and whatnot).
Ardyn would step forward as the primary villain, and Ravus might as well die here (well, maybe not die, but at least be removed from the narrative for the time being -- maybe just have him carted off and have control of the army be transfered to Ardyn after Ravus' failure to betray his sister or something).
Act 4: Tenebrae and the journey to the Empire. The tenebrae section should be turned into an actual zone of the same magnitude as Duscae:
Some of the side content cut from acts one and two should be transplanted here. It should remain story focused as well, else we run into the feeling of dallying in the face of the end of the world.
Focus on the longer nights should be more subtle, over a longer period of time and told first through gameplay mechanics and through narrative second.
Should focus on the bros and Noctis coming to terms with Noctis' future sacrifice.
Should focus on the empire's leadership crumbling under the darkness/insanity/demons.
Aranea should be a permanent party member throughout this segment.
Some of the plot vomit about demons and darkness and MTs all packed into chapter 13 should be moved here as primary quests and side quest content before we reach the empire. The actual empire segment can be shortened significantly as a result. It should still culminate in demon infused Ravus battle (but Luna is there this time so we have someone there who actually has an emotional connection to him), and with Noctis getting sucked into the crystal.
Better audio balance in the crystal scene.
Some explanation as to the role of Ifrit in the current cosmology and his relation to ardyn.
Act 5: Return to Insomnia.
A better explanation of the time skip.
Luna is alive and leading/organizing the Hunter movement.
Open world exploration, but only of the same area as act 1.
Side quests probably limited to hunts. Maybe one or two story focused side quests revolving around the state of humanity post darkness.
Ifrit battle would have the proper narrative focus surrounding it, given his place and role in the cosmology.
Ifrit's defeat would only be possible through Luna's sacrifice. IE: Luna would die here to make it possible for Noctis to move forward.
How LD50 would have directed the story for FFXV (major spoilers follow):
I would have told the story in 5 acts (or 3 acts with intro and conclusion):
Act 1: Would be similar to the introduction to XV (contained in the same desert area) except:
There would have been less side content (just enough to get the players adapted to the way side quests work in XV.
Cor would have been a side character the entire act.
Cor would have been a plot vehicle to cover the plot content that was in kingsglaive and also plot content to humanize Noctis' father and parallel Noctis' journey with his father's. Think flashbacks and campfire stories.
Ravus would be pushed as the face of the empire.
Act 2: Would be the Duscae area, and all the events that lead up to leaving it.
Would shift focus away from the past and more on Noct's bros and their camaraderie.
Would focus more on the imperial threat. Ravus would be villain numero uno throughout this segment (IE we'd see him more than once, jesus christ).
Would have significantly less side content than it currently does. Side content would be restricted to story focused side content (like stuff about the hunters and the role that they play now vs the role that they played in the past, along with more lighthearted stuff like chocobo related quests.)
Would involve the car being unavailable at the beginning of the zone to introduce chocobos as a means of better on-foot exploration without it seeming like the bros are being side tracked.
Act 3: Altissa. Altissa would remain the same except:
Luna would not die here.
Instead of Luna's death, the big reveal here would be the reveal of Noctis' ultimate fate, and the simultaneous humanization of Ravus (Ravus and his motivations revolving around Luna's fate being tied to that of a prince who's doomed to die and whatnot).
Ardyn would step forward as the primary villain, and Ravus might as well die here (well, maybe not die, but at least be removed from the narrative for the time being -- maybe just have him carted off and have control of the army be transfered to Ardyn after Ravus' failure to betray his sister or something).
Act 4: Tenebrae and the journey to the Empire. The tenebrae section should be turned into an actual zone of the same magnitude as Duscae:
Some of the side content cut from acts one and two should be transplanted here. It should remain story focused as well, else we run into the feeling of dallying in the face of the end of the world.
Focus on the longer nights should be more subtle, over a longer period of time and told first through gameplay mechanics and through narrative second.
Should focus on the bros and Noctis coming to terms with Noctis' future sacrifice.
Should focus on the empire's leadership crumbling under the darkness/insanity/demons.
Aranea should be a permanent party member throughout this segment.
Some of the plot vomit about demons and darkness and MTs all packed into chapter 13 should be moved here as primary quests and side quest content before we reach the empire. The actual empire segment can be shortened significantly as a result. It should still culminate in demon infused Ravus battle (but Luna is there this time so we have someone there who actually has an emotional connection to him), and with Noctis getting sucked into the crystal.
Better audio balance in the crystal scene.
Some explanation as to the role of Ifrit in the current cosmology and his relation to ardyn.
Act 5: Return to Insomnia.
A better explanation of the time skip.
Luna is alive and leading/organizing the Hunter movement.
Open world exploration, but only of the same area as act 1.
Side quests probably limited to hunts. Maybe one or two story focused side quests revolving around the state of humanity post darkness.
Ifrit battle would have the proper narrative focus surrounding it, given his place and role in the cosmology.
Ifrit's defeat would only be possible through Luna's sacrifice. IE: Luna would die here to make it possible for Noctis to move forward.
Final battle against Ardyn would be fun.
The actual end would be the same.
Add about 50% more Iris and we're good.
Replace the commander lady you only meet once in the prolog with Iris. Push Cor as the head of the king's shield instead of the commander lady and push Iris as "assistant behind the power" with Cor always out on the front lines. Keep her present in act 2 with her being the primary liaison between the king's shield and the hunters. Oh, and nix the weird Noct/Iris stuff that was only really in the game in Lestallum.
How LD50 would have directed the story for FFXV (major spoilers follow):
I would have told the story in 5 acts (or 3 acts with intro and conclusion):
Act 1: Would be similar to the introduction to XV (contained in the same desert area) except:
There would have been less side content (just enough to get the players adapted to the way side quests work in XV.
Cor would have been a side character the entire act.
Cor would have been a plot vehicle to cover the plot content that was in kingsglaive and also plot content to humanize Noctis' father and parallel Noctis' journey with his father's. Think flashbacks and campfire stories.
Ravus would be pushed as the face of the empire.
Act 2: Would be the Duscae area, and all the events that lead up to leaving it.
Would shift focus away from the past and more on Noct's bros and their camaraderie.
Would focus more on the imperial threat. Ravus would be villain numero uno throughout this segment (IE we'd see him more than once, jesus christ).
Would have significantly less side content than it currently does. Side content would be restricted to story focused side content (like stuff about the hunters and the role that they play now vs the role that they played in the past, along with more lighthearted stuff like chocobo related quests.)
Would involve the car being unavailable at the beginning of the zone to introduce chocobos as a means of better on-foot exploration without it seeming like the bros are being side tracked.
Act 3: Altissa. Altissa would remain the same except:
Luna would not die here.
Instead of Luna's death, the big reveal here would be the reveal of Noctis' ultimate fate, and the simultaneous humanization of Ravus (Ravus and his motivations revolving around Luna's fate being tied to that of a prince who's doomed to die and whatnot).
Ardyn would step forward as the primary villain, and Ravus might as well die here (well, maybe not die, but at least be removed from the narrative for the time being -- maybe just have him carted off and have control of the army be transfered to Ardyn after Ravus' failure to betray his sister or something).
Act 4: Tenebrae and the journey to the Empire. The tenebrae section should be turned into an actual zone of the same magnitude as Duscae:
Some of the side content cut from acts one and two should be transplanted here. It should remain story focused as well, else we run into the feeling of dallying in the face of the end of the world.
Focus on the longer nights should be more subtle, over a longer period of time and told first through gameplay mechanics and through narrative second.
Should focus on the bros and Noctis coming to terms with Noctis' future sacrifice.
Should focus on the empire's leadership crumbling under the darkness/insanity/demons.
Aranea should be a permanent party member throughout this segment.
Some of the plot vomit about demons and darkness and MTs all packed into chapter 13 should be moved here as primary quests and side quest content before we reach the empire. The actual empire segment can be shortened significantly as a result. It should still culminate in demon infused Ravus battle (but Luna is there this time so we have someone there who actually has an emotional connection to him), and with Noctis getting sucked into the crystal.
Better audio balance in the crystal scene.
Some explanation as to the role of Ifrit in the current cosmology and his relation to ardyn.
Act 5: Return to Insomnia.
A better explanation of the time skip.
Luna is alive and leading/organizing the Hunter movement.
Open world exploration, but only of the same area as act 1.
Side quests probably limited to hunts. Maybe one or two story focused side quests revolving around the state of humanity post darkness.
Ifrit battle would have the proper narrative focus surrounding it, given his place and role in the cosmology.
Ifrit's defeat would only be possible through Luna's sacrifice. IE: Luna would die here to make it possible for Noctis to move forward.
Final battle against Ardyn would be fun.
The actual end would be the same.
Add about 50% more Iris and we're good.
Replace the commander lady you only meet once in the prolog with Iris. Push Cor as the head of the king's shield instead of the commander lady and push Iris as "assistant behind the power" with Cor always out on the front lines. Keep her present in act 2 with her being the primary liaison between the king's shield and the hunters. Oh, and nix the weird Noct/Iris stuff that was only really in the game in Lestallum.
I actually liked the Noctis and Iris stuff. It was a nice moment to consider what Noctis' life could have been were he not fated to die for the world.
How LD50 would have directed the story for FFXV (major spoilers follow):
I would have told the story in 5 acts (or 3 acts with intro and conclusion):
Act 1: Would be similar to the introduction to XV (contained in the same desert area) except:
There would have been less side content (just enough to get the players adapted to the way side quests work in XV.
Cor would have been a side character the entire act.
Cor would have been a plot vehicle to cover the plot content that was in kingsglaive and also plot content to humanize Noctis' father and parallel Noctis' journey with his father's. Think flashbacks and campfire stories.
Ravus would be pushed as the face of the empire.
Act 2: Would be the Duscae area, and all the events that lead up to leaving it.
Would shift focus away from the past and more on Noct's bros and their camaraderie.
Would focus more on the imperial threat. Ravus would be villain numero uno throughout this segment (IE we'd see him more than once, jesus christ).
Would have significantly less side content than it currently does. Side content would be restricted to story focused side content (like stuff about the hunters and the role that they play now vs the role that they played in the past, along with more lighthearted stuff like chocobo related quests.)
Would involve the car being unavailable at the beginning of the zone to introduce chocobos as a means of better on-foot exploration without it seeming like the bros are being side tracked.
Act 3: Altissa. Altissa would remain the same except:
Luna would not die here.
Instead of Luna's death, the big reveal here would be the reveal of Noctis' ultimate fate, and the simultaneous humanization of Ravus (Ravus and his motivations revolving around Luna's fate being tied to that of a prince who's doomed to die and whatnot).
Ardyn would step forward as the primary villain, and Ravus might as well die here (well, maybe not die, but at least be removed from the narrative for the time being -- maybe just have him carted off and have control of the army be transfered to Ardyn after Ravus' failure to betray his sister or something).
Act 4: Tenebrae and the journey to the Empire. The tenebrae section should be turned into an actual zone of the same magnitude as Duscae:
Some of the side content cut from acts one and two should be transplanted here. It should remain story focused as well, else we run into the feeling of dallying in the face of the end of the world.
Focus on the longer nights should be more subtle, over a longer period of time and told first through gameplay mechanics and through narrative second.
Should focus on the bros and Noctis coming to terms with Noctis' future sacrifice.
Should focus on the empire's leadership crumbling under the darkness/insanity/demons.
Aranea should be a permanent party member throughout this segment.
Some of the plot vomit about demons and darkness and MTs all packed into chapter 13 should be moved here as primary quests and side quest content before we reach the empire. The actual empire segment can be shortened significantly as a result. It should still culminate in demon infused Ravus battle (but Luna is there this time so we have someone there who actually has an emotional connection to him), and with Noctis getting sucked into the crystal.
Better audio balance in the crystal scene.
Some explanation as to the role of Ifrit in the current cosmology and his relation to ardyn.
Act 5: Return to Insomnia.
A better explanation of the time skip.
Luna is alive and leading/organizing the Hunter movement.
Open world exploration, but only of the same area as act 1.
Side quests probably limited to hunts. Maybe one or two story focused side quests revolving around the state of humanity post darkness.
Ifrit battle would have the proper narrative focus surrounding it, given his place and role in the cosmology.
Ifrit's defeat would only be possible through Luna's sacrifice. IE: Luna would die here to make it possible for Noctis to move forward.
Final battle against Ardyn would be fun.
The actual end would be the same.
Add about 50% more Iris and we're good.
Replace the commander lady you only meet once in the prolog with Iris. Push Cor as the head of the king's shield instead of the commander lady and push Iris as "assistant behind the power" with Cor always out on the front lines. Keep her present in act 2 with her being the primary liaison between the king's shield and the hunters. Oh, and nix the weird Noct/Iris stuff that was only really in the game in Lestallum.
I actually liked the Noctis and Iris stuff. It was a nice moment to consider what Noctis' life could have been were he not fated to die for the world.
I wanted to feel that way but it became pretty clear that the relationship that Noctis had with Luna was more than just one of duty. Him and Luna had been close friends for a long time before the betrothal and were in love outside of the situation that was surrounding that. Iris is old enough to know that hitting on Noctis the way that she was and forcing him into a date is pretty skeevy, and the whole situation just rubbed me the wrong way. She was a great character outside of that though.
I don't get the Iris love. She was a painfully generic peppy anime high school student. Did I miss something?
I mean, I obviously did the tour of Lestallum with her, but like the rest of the cast, she's simply a collection of one or two broad traits. I guess she's sort of a love triangle interest, but given we know fuck all about Noctis' feelings about Luna at that point, it's just weird.
Regarding Vincent's point, I think that it highlights one of the big problems I had with the story and how it was portrayed. The entire thing is backwards looking. Flashbacks everywhere, almost every plot twist merely being the reveal of something that happened earlier, off screen, or the revelation of information we should've known. And, for me, it's frustrating because it robs certain scenes the weight they'd otherwise have if we knew what was going on.
Keep in mind that I'm not saying flashbacks are always bad, or that twists that revolve around past incidents are always bad. It's just that the over-reliance on them is lazy, and eventually make the characters feel disconnected from the plot. The heroes need to be present for some of the "oh shit" moments, and only two qualify in XV: Luna's murder and Prompto's kidnapping. Everything else happens off screen and in the past.
Nope, don't care about Iris either. It feels like her entire existence is just to have one more marketable female character (with a "down to earth girl next door" personality to contrast with the others) and to purposefully induce shipping wars.
And you're not really missing much, even if they only take 10 minutes to watch each episode. Looking back, all it does is make you realize how boring and low stakes everyone's backstories are.
She's the little sister button. I can totally see why some people would consider it vapid and hollow and even arguably sexist, because... well it pretty much is. Just a grab for some cheap and dirty emotional connection.
It's also a button that works. It may as well be labeled "In case of emergency, break glass".
I'm almost shocked they didn't try to yank that coller. Because it also would have worked disturbingly well.
"Luna... oh no what a tragedy I'm so *yaaawwwnnn* emotionally connected hey what's for lunch?"
"Iris... they fucked with Iris? They fucked with...they fucked with Iris?! It is fucking GO TIME ASSHOLES!"
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
I find that hypothetical situation just as hollow as
Luna's murder
Because of how blatant and shallow an exploit it is. I'm honestly baffled by the idea that anyone could form any kind of emotional response to Iris at all given how cliché she is. Maybe I'm an elitist asshole and don't realize it, but characters like her simply make me roll my eyes because they're the lowest hanging fruit of characterization possible. Factory made and blindingly obvious. I'd simply be annoyed if she had to be rescued or avenged because of course she does.
She's the little sister button. I can totally see why some people would consider it vapid and hollow and even arguably sexist, because... well it pretty much is. Just a grab for some cheap and dirty emotional connection.
It's also a button that works. It may as well be labeled "In case of emergency, break glass".
I'm almost shocked they didn't try to yank that coller. Because it also would have worked disturbingly well.
"Luna... oh no what a tragedy I'm so *yaaawwwnnn* emotionally connected hey what's for lunch?"
"Iris... they fucked with Iris? They fucked with...they fucked with Iris?! It is fucking GO TIME ASSHOLES!"
Sadly, it worked on me. I think she's adorable. (I also took way too many photos of that event, further adding fuel to the shipping fire.)
I find that hypothetical situation just as hollow as
Luna's murder
Because of how blatant and shallow an exploit it is. I'm honestly baffled by the idea that anyone could form any kind of emotional response to Iris at all given how cliché she is. Maybe I'm an elitist asshole and don't realize it, but characters like her simply make me roll my eyes because they're the lowest hanging fruit of characterization possible. Factory made and blindingly obvious. I'd simply be annoyed if she had to be rescued or avenged because of course she does.
I was more angry that saddened. I literally screamed 'NO!' at the TV because I couldn't believe they did her wrong like that. Noctis had been through more than enough shit already.
The thing that bothered me about all of that was how many false promises were made about women's representation in this game before release.
So they announced that the main party was 4 dudes, and there was a big hullabaloo about it because with the exception of FFI which had all genderless generics, every other mainline FF game has had female party members.
But they promised us that there were going to be well represented females in the story, even if they weren't a part of the main party. Well. Turns out that was a big fat lie. There are only 4 females of any significance in the entire game. Luna, Iris, Aranaea, and Giovanni or whatever the hell her name is. And none of those 4 are represented very well at all.
Luna was nothing but a plot device. We were promised a strong female lead in her by Nomura and they failed to deliver. Her only presence in the game was in flashbacks and dream sequences, and then the one and only time she's on-screen in the present, they kill her with a really cheap out-of-nowhere story maguffin.
Iris was the closest thing we got to a real character, but she ended up being nothing of importance at all and was just a distraction and a red herring. Also, one could make the argument that she was designed to be the perfect waifu bait. She was the cute little sister and she was designed to be exactly the kind of person that the player forms an attachment to, but not Noctis, and she was irrelevant to the story.
Aranaea was confusing. First she was a silent background character in a cutscene. Then she was a boss fight which came out of nowhere and served no purpose in the narrative. Then on your next encounter she's your best friend because all of a sudden she is a mercenary (?) even though up until that point we had no idea she was a mercenary and her general portrayal up until that point was that she was some sort of Imperial Officer. They literally change who she was in the middle of the game for the sake of convenience. And then she pals with you because you guys are besties who hate the empire together.
Giovannia was not a real character and she didn't make any sense within the lore of the game. We were told that Luna was essential to Noctis because she had to make first contact with the Espers. That was her sacred duty as the Oracle. She had to talk to them first for unexplained reasons. Because of reasons, if Noctis would have just walked over to Titan on his own and said "Yo Titan let's fight, I want your powers" it wouldn't have worked. Luna totally had to go tell Titan that Noctis was coming to fight him and take his powers. No talk, no fight. So that leads me back to Giovannianininana. She was an Esper just like Titan and Leviathan and Ramuh. But yet she was able to commune with Noctis without properly being fluffed by the Oracle. It didn't make any sense. Also she was a ghost? And could take human form? Why didn't Titan, Ramuh, or Leviathan take human form? This character provides some serious problem for their entire pantheon of god-beings in this game because her powers and involvement completely contradict everything that the story tells us is true and necessary.
The game does tell you that she's a mercenary who was hired by Nif. The dude you're shadowing right before her boss fight talks to his guards about how much he hates that she's been given power and soldiers when she's just a merc. Of course it's easy to miss that dialogue if you don't follow him closely enough or didn't fail that segment several times like I did, forcing me to hear him gripe multiple times.
If you catch the supplemental in-game dialogue about her and listen to what she's saying in the dungon when she joins you, her actions are actually pretty straightforward. I think she's the best female character in the game, but that's a pretty low bar.
Want to find me on a gaming service? I'm SwashbucklerXX everywhere.
The thing that bothered me about all of that was how many false promises were made about women's representation in this game before release.
So they announced that the main party was 4 dudes, and there was a big hullabaloo about it because with the exception of FFI which had all genderless generics, every other mainline FF game has had female party members.
But they promised us that there were going to be well represented females in the story, even if they weren't a part of the main party. Well. Turns out that was a big fat lie. There are only 4 females of any significance in the entire game. Luna, Iris, Aranaea, and Giovanni or whatever the hell her name is. And none of those 4 are represented very well at all.
Luna was nothing but a plot device. We were promised a strong female lead in her by Nomura and they failed to deliver. Her only presence in the game was in flashbacks and dream sequences, and then the one and only time she's on-screen in the present, they kill her with a really cheap out-of-nowhere story maguffin.
Iris was the closest thing we got to a real character, but she ended up being nothing of importance at all and was just a distraction and a red herring. Also, one could make the argument that she was designed to be the perfect waifu bait. She was the cute little sister and she was designed to be exactly the kind of person that the player forms an attachment to, but not Noctis, and she was irrelevant to the story.
Aranaea was confusing. First she was a silent background character in a cutscene. Then she was a boss fight which came out of nowhere and served no purpose in the narrative. Then on your next encounter she's your best friend because all of a sudden she is a mercenary (?) even though up until that point we had no idea she was a mercenary and her general portrayal up until that point was that she was some sort of Imperial Officer. They literally change who she was in the middle of the game for the sake of convenience. And then she pals with you because you guys are besties who hate the empire together.
Giovannia was not a real character and she didn't make any sense within the lore of the game. We were told that Luna was essential to Noctis because she had to make first contact with the Espers. That was her sacred duty as the Oracle. She had to talk to them first for unexplained reasons. Because of reasons, if Noctis would have just walked over to Titan on his own and said "Yo Titan let's fight, I want your powers" it wouldn't have worked. Luna totally had to go tell Titan that Noctis was coming to fight him and take his powers. No talk, no fight. So that leads me back to Giovannianininana. She was an Esper just like Titan and Leviathan and Ramuh. But yet she was able to commune with Noctis without properly being fluffed by the Oracle. It didn't make any sense. Also she was a ghost? And could take human form? Why didn't Titan, Ramuh, or Leviathan take human form? This character provides some serious problem for their entire pantheon of god-beings in this game because her powers and involvement completely contradict everything that the story tells us is true and necessary.
I'm pretty critical of this game, but I wouldn't count female under-representation as one of my critiques. There are a variety of personality types, looks, and jobs represented by the side and background characters, and women hold various roles of importance to the story. I agree with you that a lot of the characters where underutilized and confusing, but that's not limited to just ladies in FFXV.
Yeah, as critical as I am of Iris, I wouldn't say that she nor any of the other female characters are inherently "bad" in of themselves. It's just they're all given pretty much fuck-all to do, and arguably have the least amount of screen-time than any other important female characters in the franchise. There simply isn't enough to allotted to them to be "good" or rise behind their archetypes.
I understand where Nomura was coming from with his "bro-trip" story structure, but I also am critical of it because I think that the broadtrip ended half way through the game, and Luna could have been a party member without disrupting anything. I also think that she could have both been an interesting character and also been a good source for a bunch of setting information that we would have been better off with having.
Not to mention that her death would have been much more impactful if we actually knew who she was when it happened.
A few other thoughts:
The Regalia's death scene would have felt less cheap if it had been the first character that died (also if we had gotten a chance to use it in the 50% of the game preceding it's death. Not only that, but I think it would have been a good fake-out; players go into the empire segment expecting someone to die because that is the direction the narrative is going. Most people would expect Luna. When the car dies it would push people into a false sense of security regarding Luna's fate, making her sacrifice against Ifrit that much more impactful.
Yeah, I remember them trying really hard to defend and justify having an all male party and the importance of the "bro-ness" One thing that they said that really confused me was how "gamers will be able to see guys act in a way that you can only see when no woman are around". And I'm just like, what are they really referring too? I can't really think of a moment like that in the whole game. The main cast never really seemed to do or say anything that would justify having no female party members.
I mean hell, Final Fantasy IX had three female party members in it, and Zidane and Vivi still were able to step aside and freakin' piss under the stars together in an act of "male bonding". What's FFXV's excuse?
Hell, speaking of FF9 and male relationships, one thing in the game that really warmed my heart was the fact that really from the moment they meet, Steiner is automatically respectful of Vivi and acknowledges his power and abilities, even if Vivi himself doesn't have any confidence in himself. There's that moment when they're going to tackle the wind shrine together, and Vivi gets pushed back by the gales, so Steiner stands in front of him to protect him as they march forth.
Yeah, I remember them trying really hard to defend and justify having an all male party and the importance of the "bro-ness" One thing that they said that really confused me was how "gamers will be able to see guys act in a way that you can only see when no woman are around". And I'm just like, what are they really referring too? I can't really think of a moment like that in the whole game. The main cast never really seemed to do or say anything that would justify having no female party members.
I mean hell, Final Fantasy IX had three female party members in it, and Zidane and Vivi still were able to step aside and freakin' piss under the stars together in an act of "male bonding". What's FFXV's excuse?
Hell, speaking of FF9 and male relationships, one thing in the game that really warmed my heart was the fact that really from the moment they meet, Steiner is automatically respectful of Vivi and acknowledges his power and abilities, even if Vivi himself doesn't have any confidence in himself. There's that moment when they're going to tackle the wind shrine together, and Vivi gets pushed back by the gales, so Steiner stands in front of him to protect him as they march forth.
That's a real moment of "bro-ness" to me.
The bro-ness was in how the four act around each other. Throughout the game they maintain a healthy level of competitiveness, cutting banter, and stoicism that I've come to associate from male-dominated groups (like military operators). Now I'm sure that they could have included a female character in the group and kept those same dynamics, but I think it would have taken a certain kind of character for it to still come across as genuine. Like I said earlier FFXV has many faults, but the one strength it does have is in portraying a genuine and well fleshed-out relationship between four best friends.
There were a lot of ways that FFXV could have gone. A lot of different kinds of relationships they could have shown. The Steiner + Vivi one is a great example because it does show camaraderie and companionship but expressed differently.
Can someone explain to me Prompto's backstory of being a kid from Noctis' past in the brotherhood anime vs.
a soldier boy of the empire?
I haven't watched Brotherhood yet, but essentially Prompto was a test-tube baby who was supposed to be sacrificed to power a magitek soldier. But it has so little context around it that your best bet is to treat it just like the other 3 do: say "huh" and just ignore it.
Can someone explain to me Prompto's backstory of being a kid from Noctis' past in the brotherhood anime vs.
a soldier boy of the empire?
I haven't watched Brotherhood yet, but essentially Prompto was a test-tube baby who was supposed to be sacrificed to power a magitek soldier. But it has so little context around it that your best bet is to treat it just like the other 3 do: say "huh" and just ignore it.
The problem is that brotherhood covers Prompto's childhood, and in brotherhood he's in Insomnia. I mean, it's possible that he was a test tube baby from the empire before brotherhood, but honestly I have a hard time that something happening that early in Prompto's life would have such an impact on his identity as an almost adult in XV. This is especially the case since he displays no existential angst even in his private solo brotherhood scenes.
Yeah, I remember them trying really hard to defend and justify having an all male party and the importance of the "bro-ness" One thing that they said that really confused me was how "gamers will be able to see guys act in a way that you can only see when no woman are around". And I'm just like, what are they really referring too? I can't really think of a moment like that in the whole game. The main cast never really seemed to do or say anything that would justify having no female party members.
I mean hell, Final Fantasy IX had three female party members in it, and Zidane and Vivi still were able to step aside and freakin' piss under the stars together in an act of "male bonding". What's FFXV's excuse?
Hell, speaking of FF9 and male relationships, one thing in the game that really warmed my heart was the fact that really from the moment they meet, Steiner is automatically respectful of Vivi and acknowledges his power and abilities, even if Vivi himself doesn't have any confidence in himself. There's that moment when they're going to tackle the wind shrine together, and Vivi gets pushed back by the gales, so Steiner stands in front of him to protect him as they march forth.
That's a real moment of "bro-ness" to me.
The bro-ness was in how the four act around each other. Throughout the game they maintain a healthy level of competitiveness, cutting banter, and stoicism that I've come to associate from male-dominated groups (like military operators). Now I'm sure that they could have included a female character in the group and kept those same dynamics, but I think it would have taken a certain kind of character for it to still come across as genuine. Like I said earlier FFXV has many faults, but the one strength it does have is in portraying a genuine and well fleshed-out relationship between four best friends.
There were a lot of ways that FFXV could have gone. A lot of different kinds of relationships they could have shown. The Steiner + Vivi one is a great example because it does show camaraderie and companionship but expressed differently.
I get what your saying, but I feel like I've seen enough of that male-group dynamic for this lifetime. Not just in media, but in real life in general. I've actually been in the military for a decade (and being gay, also constantly worrying about my own perceived masculinity) so I've already kind of feel tired and exasperated by that kind of mentality, and Final Fantasy has more or less done a good job of staying away from that for 30 years, I really feel like it's kind of weird for them to be starting NOW. It's kind of novel in regards to FF as a series, but not that novel compared to...everything else in the world.
But...I guess that is just my personal experiences painting this, so I don't really know how fair all that is. But I also did find the characters really boring and uninspired in a way that all the snarky dialogue and asides in the world couldn't really elevate.
It kind of felt like they were trying really, REALLY hard to make the characters as down to earth and relatable as possible, in contrast to how fantastical the casts of many typical JRPGs are. But it felt like they fumbled real badly, and ended up with characters who are very underwhelming, have very uninteresting backstories , and are just "real" in a way that's really incongruous with all the other crazy elements of the games world. "This is a fantasy that's based in reality" was one of the original taglines, and it just didn't work for me.
And it kind of feels like in any other game I can forgive these kinds of issues with the main cast, but when I think about all the other problems the game's plot and setting and systems it has, it just creates this kind of cascading domino effect in my head where I feel like very little works, and any small positive just isn't enough. It's genuinely been a long time since I've felt this flustered by a video game.
Oh yeah, I can relate a little. I've got more of a beta personality and get a lot of shit for not conforming myself. I'm not saying that the bro-trip is better or worse than other relationships they've shown in the series, only pointing out that it seemed to be what Tabata intended. It didn't work for you and that's fine: I'm not a huge fan of Steiner myself because though I like the knight in shining armor archetype he's totally incompetent for the first half of the game and that left a real sour taste in my mouth.
The only reason I bring this up is because I'm trying to take a more critical approach to how I see video games. Mr. Plinkett's reviews of the Star Wars prequel trilogy were groundbreaking for me. I knew I didn't like the prequels, but until I had watched those videos I couldn't explain exactly why I didn't like them or how they were bad. With FFXV the Payout without Setup video I linked a few pages back I think is the largest factor in why FFXV isn't being received well.
Can someone explain to me Prompto's backstory of being a kid from Noctis' past in the brotherhood anime vs.
a soldier boy of the empire?
I haven't watched Brotherhood yet, but essentially Prompto was a test-tube baby who was supposed to be sacrificed to power a magitek soldier. But it has so little context around it that your best bet is to treat it just like the other 3 do: say "huh" and just ignore it.
The problem is that brotherhood covers Prompto's childhood, and in brotherhood he's in Insomnia. I mean, it's possible that he was a test tube baby from the empire before brotherhood, but honestly I have a hard time that something happening that early in Prompto's life would have such an impact on his identity as an almost adult in XV. This is especially the case since he displays no existential angst even in his private solo brotherhood scenes.
Yeah I think you've got the whole picture. It goes back to the Payoff without Setup: it really is a non-factor in every way in the game other than allowing you to open one door. It's weird and awkward and should have been cut completely because it adds nothing to the overall story or relationship other than some momentary confusion.
Oh yeah, I can relate a little. I've got more of a beta personality and get a lot of shit for not conforming myself. I'm not saying that the bro-trip is better or worse than other relationships they've shown in the series, only pointing out that it seemed to be what Tabata intended. It didn't work for you and that's fine: I'm not a huge fan of Steiner myself because though I like the knight in shining armor archetype he's totally incompetent for the first half of the game and that left a real sour taste in my mouth.
The only reason I bring this up is because I'm trying to take a more critical approach to how I see video games. Mr. Plinkett's reviews of the Star Wars prequel trilogy were groundbreaking for me. I knew I didn't like the prequels, but until I had watched those videos I couldn't explain exactly why I didn't like them or how they were bad. With FFXV the Payout without Setup video I linked a few pages back I think is the largest factor in why FFXV isn't being received well.
Can someone explain to me Prompto's backstory of being a kid from Noctis' past in the brotherhood anime vs.
a soldier boy of the empire?
I haven't watched Brotherhood yet, but essentially Prompto was a test-tube baby who was supposed to be sacrificed to power a magitek soldier. But it has so little context around it that your best bet is to treat it just like the other 3 do: say "huh" and just ignore it.
The problem is that brotherhood covers Prompto's childhood, and in brotherhood he's in Insomnia. I mean, it's possible that he was a test tube baby from the empire before brotherhood, but honestly I have a hard time that something happening that early in Prompto's life would have such an impact on his identity as an almost adult in XV. This is especially the case since he displays no existential angst even in his private solo brotherhood scenes.
Yeah I think you've got the whole picture. It goes back to the Payoff without Setup: it really is a non-factor in every way in the game other than allowing you to open one door. It's weird and awkward and should have been cut completely because it adds nothing to the overall story or relationship other than some momentary confusion.
They did it because they wanted something 'tragic' to happen to Prompto. I actually called it over a year ago except I jokingly called it 'childhood leukemia'. It's another cheap shot at eliciting an emotional response by attacking a sympathetic or weak character.
Can someone explain to me Prompto's backstory of being a kid from Noctis' past in the brotherhood anime vs.
a soldier boy of the empire?
I haven't watched Brotherhood yet, but essentially Prompto was a test-tube baby who was supposed to be sacrificed to power a magitek soldier. But it has so little context around it that your best bet is to treat it just like the other 3 do: say "huh" and just ignore it.
The problem is that brotherhood covers Prompto's childhood, and in brotherhood he's in Insomnia. I mean, it's possible that he was a test tube baby from the empire before brotherhood, but honestly I have a hard time that something happening that early in Prompto's life would have such an impact on his identity as an almost adult in XV. This is especially the case since he displays no existential angst even in his private solo brotherhood scenes.
Yeah I think you've got the whole picture. It goes back to the Payoff without Setup: it really is a non-factor in every way in the game other than allowing you to open one door. It's weird and awkward and should have been cut completely because it adds nothing to the overall story or relationship other than some momentary confusion.
I'm glad I'm vindicated in my understanding of this plot.
I've dragged myself to chapter... 5? in XV and my god this game just isn't grabbing me at all. I don't hate the characters like I do the entire cast of FFVIII, but I just don't care. And I don't know why anything is happening. People are just telling Noctis to go to places and do stuff because reasons. I don't know what the stakes are or what the goal is or anything except for 'Empire bad'.
I was going to give it another couple hours but judging from the posts in this thread it's not going to get any better, huh? Might as well just trade it in for Horizon I guess.
The thing that bothered me about all of that was how many false promises were made about women's representation in this game before release.
So they announced that the main party was 4 dudes, and there was a big hullabaloo about it because with the exception of FFI which had all genderless generics, every other mainline FF game has had female party members.
But they promised us that there were going to be well represented females in the story, even if they weren't a part of the main party. Well. Turns out that was a big fat lie. There are only 4 females of any significance in the entire game. Luna, Iris, Aranaea, and Giovanni or whatever the hell her name is. And none of those 4 are represented very well at all.
Luna was nothing but a plot device. We were promised a strong female lead in her by Nomura and they failed to deliver. Her only presence in the game was in flashbacks and dream sequences, and then the one and only time she's on-screen in the present, they kill her with a really cheap out-of-nowhere story maguffin.
Iris was the closest thing we got to a real character, but she ended up being nothing of importance at all and was just a distraction and a red herring. Also, one could make the argument that she was designed to be the perfect waifu bait. She was the cute little sister and she was designed to be exactly the kind of person that the player forms an attachment to, but not Noctis, and she was irrelevant to the story.
Aranaea was confusing. First she was a silent background character in a cutscene. Then she was a boss fight which came out of nowhere and served no purpose in the narrative. Then on your next encounter she's your best friend because all of a sudden she is a mercenary (?) even though up until that point we had no idea she was a mercenary and her general portrayal up until that point was that she was some sort of Imperial Officer. They literally change who she was in the middle of the game for the sake of convenience. And then she pals with you because you guys are besties who hate the empire together.
Giovannia was not a real character and she didn't make any sense within the lore of the game. We were told that Luna was essential to Noctis because she had to make first contact with the Espers. That was her sacred duty as the Oracle. She had to talk to them first for unexplained reasons. Because of reasons, if Noctis would have just walked over to Titan on his own and said "Yo Titan let's fight, I want your powers" it wouldn't have worked. Luna totally had to go tell Titan that Noctis was coming to fight him and take his powers. No talk, no fight. So that leads me back to Giovannianininana. She was an Esper just like Titan and Leviathan and Ramuh. But yet she was able to commune with Noctis without properly being fluffed by the Oracle. It didn't make any sense. Also she was a ghost? And could take human form? Why didn't Titan, Ramuh, or Leviathan take human form? This character provides some serious problem for their entire pantheon of god-beings in this game because her powers and involvement completely contradict everything that the story tells us is true and necessary.
I'm pretty critical of this game, but I wouldn't count female under-representation as one of my critiques. There are a variety of personality types, looks, and jobs represented by the side and background characters, and women hold various roles of importance to the story. I agree with you that a lot of the characters where underutilized and confusing, but that's not limited to just ladies in FFXV.
Honest question. Are you all leaving Cindy out of this conversation intentionally or did you just forget she existed in the game?
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Yeah the tones of each of the game's two halves and the characters are just written in such a specific way, that I don't really know how you would fix it.
The back half is full of lots of cut scenes and plot dumps, swerves, yet it's gameplay pretty much involves you just walking down narrow corridors and train cars. Adding more cutscenes will pretty much just make it feel even more of player-agency free slog.
And the first half is just so narratively empty and purposefully low stakes, and except for a couple skirmishes with the empire, the cast is pretty divorced from everything else that's going in the world, and I don't know how you can change that. I'm not sure where you would even begin to stick new cutscenes in, or how they can matter. The story sequences we that are ALREADY in the first half mostly feel lightweight as it is. Maybe you can have Noctis get a backstory vision/flashback each time he gets a new royal arm, because that's a thing that happens in RPGs? I guess Lunafreya could use more flashbacks, but I don't see cutting back to her sitting in a room and occasionally talking to summons really doing much to improve her character.
And yeah, not "doing much to improve' is something I kind of realize of how I feel about FFXV as a whole. Paradoxically, to me, it feels like there's a lot missing from the game, I at the same time feel like I've really seen all there is to see about this story, this world, and these characters, and any additions will just feel like a marginal improvement at best.
FFXV's world and people just feel kind of empty to me, which is a shame as it makes me realise how richer past games were right out of the box. In each of the Ivalice games, even if when the camera is on a small batch of characters, and you're witnessing only one plot thread of many, you still FEEL the weight of history in them. It makes me really look forward to playing XII in HD. And even when the XIII games stumble, their world is just so freaking WEIRD, and the melodrama was so high that it at least kept me intrigued as where it was all going. I really don't feel any of that with XV...
Hah that is right! The way he is portrayed you'd expect him to be like, 50s at least. Man for a nation that has generally higher than average life expectancy than the rest of the developed world they do have weird ideas about what "old" is.
Woman over 25? Spinster.
Man in his 30s? Old Man.
XV feels a lot like VIII to me in this regard. A lot of anachronistic things mushed together in the hope that it'll be interesting ("A modern luxury car and smart phones rubbing up against glowing crystal formations and old gods? Wow!"), but there's little connective tissue making it feel coherent. Nothing about XV's world feels legitimate. And, like you say, the tone is off from the start.
Moreover, 16-bit characters in a modern looking world isn't going to cut it any more (seriously, the bros are less fleshed out than the bulk of VI's crew), especially not when we're used to BioWare, and R*, and Telltale Games, and Naughty Dog, and a host of other studios pumping out better gameplay and better characters as a matter of course every few years. I'm currently playing Watch_Dogs 2, and the Dedsec crew feels a lot more real than XV's.
SE needs to raise the bar with Final Fantasy, across the board. XV sits in this weird place where it's not a very good open world game, and it's not a very good RPG. And that's just not good enough in 2017.
Ending spoilers
But except for (a rather unecessary) flash forward at the games beginning, and taking TWO summons to bring down, the game basically treats him as just another obstacle. No build up, no dialogue (besides some stuff Shiva says...in a language you can't even understand), no catharsis where it should be. Ardyn just says he doesn't like humans, and there may be some blurb if you find one of the text dump books in a random gas station. This is the origin point of all the characters suffering, and it's given not an ounce of proper importance.
FFXV is a game where you take down Satan and no one really seems to care
But the open world bit is so disconnected, and there's so very little sense of urgency that the whole thing feels like a giant wash. The bros are basically outcasts from their home city, but they don't feel like it. They're just cruising around all leisurely in their super nice royal car that stands out like a sore thumb compared to everything else. They're fishing, camping, racing chocobos, and picking flowers like they don't have a care in the world. It just doesn't make any sense.
And then let's talk about the people in the world of Lucia. You've got the Crown Prince, who after like 2 chapters is basically the un-coronated king. And yet they all treat him like he's some commoner pleb who has all the time in the world to do trivial tasks for them. Or tasks so ridiculous and dangerous that you would never send your king to do them.
Unless maybe... what if.... what if the whole world is against Noctis, and all these fetch quests, hunts, and "go steal X item from a nasty beast" quests are an elaborate plot to indirectly assassinate the king. What if the entire open world segment is a giant regicide plot and we're playing right into it by doing all this dumb shit for these people.
"Noctis, go up on that hill where the giant 4-winged raven is and get me a ruby. I sure don't hope you die while you're up there. That sure would be a shame." /hands wringing
Act 1: Would be similar to the introduction to XV (contained in the same desert area) except:
Act 2: Would be the Duscae area, and all the events that lead up to leaving it.
Act 3: Altissa. Altissa would remain the same except:
Act 4: Tenebrae and the journey to the Empire. The tenebrae section should be turned into an actual zone of the same magnitude as Duscae:
Act 5: Return to Insomnia.
This would be a way better game.
Just making....
...would go a long way.
Add about 50% more Iris and we're good.
Regarding Vincent's point, I think that it highlights one of the big problems I had with the story and how it was portrayed. The entire thing is backwards looking. Flashbacks everywhere, almost every plot twist merely being the reveal of something that happened earlier, off screen, or the revelation of information we should've known. And, for me, it's frustrating because it robs certain scenes the weight they'd otherwise have if we knew what was going on.
Keep in mind that I'm not saying flashbacks are always bad, or that twists that revolve around past incidents are always bad. It's just that the over-reliance on them is lazy, and eventually make the characters feel disconnected from the plot. The heroes need to be present for some of the "oh shit" moments, and only two qualify in XV: Luna's murder and Prompto's kidnapping. Everything else happens off screen and in the past.
But I digress....
Is there more to Iris in the supplemental media?
Ah.
Never watched it.
And you're not really missing much, even if they only take 10 minutes to watch each episode. Looking back, all it does is make you realize how boring and low stakes everyone's backstories are.
It's also a button that works. It may as well be labeled "In case of emergency, break glass".
I'm almost shocked they didn't try to yank that coller. Because it also would have worked disturbingly well.
"Luna... oh no what a tragedy I'm so *yaaawwwnnn* emotionally connected hey what's for lunch?"
"Iris... they fucked with Iris? They fucked with... they fucked with Iris?! It is fucking GO TIME ASSHOLES!"
Because of how blatant and shallow an exploit it is. I'm honestly baffled by the idea that anyone could form any kind of emotional response to Iris at all given how cliché she is. Maybe I'm an elitist asshole and don't realize it, but characters like her simply make me roll my eyes because they're the lowest hanging fruit of characterization possible. Factory made and blindingly obvious. I'd simply be annoyed if she had to be rescued or avenged because of course she does.
Sadly, it worked on me. I think she's adorable. (I also took way too many photos of that event, further adding fuel to the shipping fire.)
So they announced that the main party was 4 dudes, and there was a big hullabaloo about it because with the exception of FFI which had all genderless generics, every other mainline FF game has had female party members.
But they promised us that there were going to be well represented females in the story, even if they weren't a part of the main party. Well. Turns out that was a big fat lie. There are only 4 females of any significance in the entire game. Luna, Iris, Aranaea, and Giovanni or whatever the hell her name is. And none of those 4 are represented very well at all.
Iris was the closest thing we got to a real character, but she ended up being nothing of importance at all and was just a distraction and a red herring. Also, one could make the argument that she was designed to be the perfect waifu bait. She was the cute little sister and she was designed to be exactly the kind of person that the player forms an attachment to, but not Noctis, and she was irrelevant to the story.
Aranaea was confusing. First she was a silent background character in a cutscene. Then she was a boss fight which came out of nowhere and served no purpose in the narrative. Then on your next encounter she's your best friend because all of a sudden she is a mercenary (?) even though up until that point we had no idea she was a mercenary and her general portrayal up until that point was that she was some sort of Imperial Officer. They literally change who she was in the middle of the game for the sake of convenience. And then she pals with you because you guys are besties who hate the empire together.
Giovannia was not a real character and she didn't make any sense within the lore of the game. We were told that Luna was essential to Noctis because she had to make first contact with the Espers. That was her sacred duty as the Oracle. She had to talk to them first for unexplained reasons. Because of reasons, if Noctis would have just walked over to Titan on his own and said "Yo Titan let's fight, I want your powers" it wouldn't have worked. Luna totally had to go tell Titan that Noctis was coming to fight him and take his powers. No talk, no fight. So that leads me back to Giovannianininana. She was an Esper just like Titan and Leviathan and Ramuh. But yet she was able to commune with Noctis without properly being fluffed by the Oracle. It didn't make any sense. Also she was a ghost? And could take human form? Why didn't Titan, Ramuh, or Leviathan take human form? This character provides some serious problem for their entire pantheon of god-beings in this game because her powers and involvement completely contradict everything that the story tells us is true and necessary.
If you catch the supplemental in-game dialogue about her and listen to what she's saying in the dungon when she joins you, her actions are actually pretty straightforward. I think she's the best female character in the game, but that's a pretty low bar.
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I'm pretty critical of this game, but I wouldn't count female under-representation as one of my critiques. There are a variety of personality types, looks, and jobs represented by the side and background characters, and women hold various roles of importance to the story. I agree with you that a lot of the characters where underutilized and confusing, but that's not limited to just ladies in FFXV.
A few other thoughts:
The Regalia's death scene would have felt less cheap if it had been the first character that died (also if we had gotten a chance to use it in the 50% of the game preceding it's death. Not only that, but I think it would have been a good fake-out; players go into the empire segment expecting someone to die because that is the direction the narrative is going. Most people would expect Luna. When the car dies it would push people into a false sense of security regarding Luna's fate, making her sacrifice against Ifrit that much more impactful.
I mean hell, Final Fantasy IX had three female party members in it, and Zidane and Vivi still were able to step aside and freakin' piss under the stars together in an act of "male bonding". What's FFXV's excuse?
Hell, speaking of FF9 and male relationships, one thing in the game that really warmed my heart was the fact that really from the moment they meet, Steiner is automatically respectful of Vivi and acknowledges his power and abilities, even if Vivi himself doesn't have any confidence in himself. There's that moment when they're going to tackle the wind shrine together, and Vivi gets pushed back by the gales, so Steiner stands in front of him to protect him as they march forth.
That's a real moment of "bro-ness" to me.
The bro-ness was in how the four act around each other. Throughout the game they maintain a healthy level of competitiveness, cutting banter, and stoicism that I've come to associate from male-dominated groups (like military operators). Now I'm sure that they could have included a female character in the group and kept those same dynamics, but I think it would have taken a certain kind of character for it to still come across as genuine. Like I said earlier FFXV has many faults, but the one strength it does have is in portraying a genuine and well fleshed-out relationship between four best friends.
There were a lot of ways that FFXV could have gone. A lot of different kinds of relationships they could have shown. The Steiner + Vivi one is a great example because it does show camaraderie and companionship but expressed differently.
I get what your saying, but I feel like I've seen enough of that male-group dynamic for this lifetime. Not just in media, but in real life in general. I've actually been in the military for a decade (and being gay, also constantly worrying about my own perceived masculinity) so I've already kind of feel tired and exasperated by that kind of mentality, and Final Fantasy has more or less done a good job of staying away from that for 30 years, I really feel like it's kind of weird for them to be starting NOW. It's kind of novel in regards to FF as a series, but not that novel compared to...everything else in the world.
But...I guess that is just my personal experiences painting this, so I don't really know how fair all that is. But I also did find the characters really boring and uninspired in a way that all the snarky dialogue and asides in the world couldn't really elevate.
It kind of felt like they were trying really, REALLY hard to make the characters as down to earth and relatable as possible, in contrast to how fantastical the casts of many typical JRPGs are. But it felt like they fumbled real badly, and ended up with characters who are very underwhelming, have very uninteresting backstories , and are just "real" in a way that's really incongruous with all the other crazy elements of the games world. "This is a fantasy that's based in reality" was one of the original taglines, and it just didn't work for me.
And it kind of feels like in any other game I can forgive these kinds of issues with the main cast, but when I think about all the other problems the game's plot and setting and systems it has, it just creates this kind of cascading domino effect in my head where I feel like very little works, and any small positive just isn't enough. It's genuinely been a long time since I've felt this flustered by a video game.
The only reason I bring this up is because I'm trying to take a more critical approach to how I see video games. Mr. Plinkett's reviews of the Star Wars prequel trilogy were groundbreaking for me. I knew I didn't like the prequels, but until I had watched those videos I couldn't explain exactly why I didn't like them or how they were bad. With FFXV the Payout without Setup video I linked a few pages back I think is the largest factor in why FFXV isn't being received well.
Yeah I think you've got the whole picture. It goes back to the Payoff without Setup: it really is a non-factor in every way in the game other than allowing you to open one door. It's weird and awkward and should have been cut completely because it adds nothing to the overall story or relationship other than some momentary confusion.
I'm glad I'm vindicated in my understanding of this plot.
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I was going to give it another couple hours but judging from the posts in this thread it's not going to get any better, huh? Might as well just trade it in for Horizon I guess.
Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
Forget it...
Honest question. Are you all leaving Cindy out of this conversation intentionally or did you just forget she existed in the game?
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)