Guys, theres enough god forsaken idiocy involved in DC already, do we really need to condemn them for a hypothetical creative decision they might make regarding a film that just came out?
Guys, theres enough god forsaken idiocy involved in DC already, do we really need to condemn them for a hypothetical creative decision they might make regarding a film that just came out?
I dunno... it's hard to answer that. Hypothetically I'd agree.
But given how they have reacted thus far... yeah, hard deny that it's a very real possibility, especially given the chaos that appears to be the current status of the upcoming DC lineup.
Like, far be it for me to take the high ground on defending DC's creative direction (I'm seriously of the mind that the single smartest decision they could make would be to quarantine the IP's they've decided to use, wait a few years and start again with litterally anyone else and no mention of any of the prospective members of the justice league movie) But I'm one of those people that thinks you should get mad at people for the things they've either fucked up (IE crashed a car into my house) or are in the process of fucking up (Driving drunk) as opposed to something that could lead to fuck uppery (Driving in a car with a keg in the back seat.
I would be pleased as punch to latch onto any glimmer of hope that DC/WB is actually learning and making their movies better, but as of right now it's kind of hard to stay neutral, much less hope.
I would be pleased as punch to latch onto any glimmer of hope that DC/WB is actually learning and making their movies better, but as of right now it's kind of hard to stay neutral, much less hope.
From my point of view, WB has fucked the DC film department pretty hard by a combination of lack of proper planning, pretentiousness while plainly aping their most obvious competitor, poor vision and incompetent writers/directors/cinematographers, and it is easily in their best interest to terminate the existing DCFU rather then trudge on because it is still marginally profitable.
I have basically zero faith in them at this point.
I would be pleased as punch to latch onto any glimmer of hope that DC/WB is actually learning and making their movies better, but as of right now it's kind of hard to stay neutral, much less hope.
From my point of view, WB has fucked the DC film department pretty hard by a combination of lack of proper planning, pretentiousness while plainly aping their most obvious competitor, poor vision and incompetent writers/directors/cinematographers, and it is easily in their best interest to terminate the existing DCFU rather then trudge on because it is still marginally profitable.
I have basically zero faith in them at this point.
The problem is these movies are still making money.
The people in charge obviously have no concern about the integrity of the DC cinematic universe... so as long as they still make some money, I have no faith that they won't just pound these movies out and stomp any chance of seeing a good DC movie into the ground for a long time coming.
I would be pleased as punch to latch onto any glimmer of hope that DC/WB is actually learning and making their movies better, but as of right now it's kind of hard to stay neutral, much less hope.
From my point of view, WB has fucked the DC film department pretty hard by a combination of lack of proper planning, pretentiousness while plainly aping their most obvious competitor, poor vision and incompetent writers/directors/cinematographers, and it is easily in their best interest to terminate the existing DCFU rather then trudge on because it is still marginally profitable.
I have basically zero faith in them at this point.
The problem is these movies are still making money.
The people in charge obviously have no concern about the integrity of the DC cinematic universe... so as long as they still make some money, I have no faith that they won't just pound these movies out and stomp any chance of seeing a good DC movie into the ground for a long time coming.
Thing is, I'm wondering how much longer they can possibly be profitable; they've got three films out that could very generously be described as flawed, it stands to reason that people are going to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt sooner or later (probably sooner, given how RT shows a clear downward trajectory in the tomatometer across their three offerings).
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I would be pleased as punch to latch onto any glimmer of hope that DC/WB is actually learning and making their movies better, but as of right now it's kind of hard to stay neutral, much less hope.
From my point of view, WB has fucked the DC film department pretty hard by a combination of lack of proper planning, pretentiousness while plainly aping their most obvious competitor, poor vision and incompetent writers/directors/cinematographers, and it is easily in their best interest to terminate the existing DCFU rather then trudge on because it is still marginally profitable.
I have basically zero faith in them at this point.
The problem is these movies are still making money.
The people in charge obviously have no concern about the integrity of the DC cinematic universe... so as long as they still make some money, I have no faith that they won't just pound these movies out and stomp any chance of seeing a good DC movie into the ground for a long time coming.
Thing is, I'm wondering how much longer they can possibly be profitable; they've got three films out that could very generously be described as flawed, it stands to reason that people are going to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt sooner or later (probably sooner, given how RT shows a clear downward trajectory in the tomatometer across their three offerings).
Hard to say, a lot of people love those movies, and then there are people who seem to watch whatever is the big budget movie of the week.
Is there enough of them to continue making more? How many transformer movies do we have?
Suicide Squad wasn't flawed... it won an Oscar. Have any of the Marvel movies done that?
No seriously I'm asking if they have.
Eh, the makeup guys won an Oscar, not the film.
And if it hadn't been for the Best Picture screw up, that probably would have been the big news from the Oscars, and not in a good way. Almost everything I read was that Star Trek should have won, and Joker's make-up alone should have completely disqualified Suicide Squad.
Suicide Squad wasn't flawed... it won an Oscar. Have any of the Marvel movies done that?
No seriously I'm asking if they have.
It also got a 26%/63% critic/audience rating and 2 razzie nominations (which it likely would have won if it hadn't been competing against Batman V Superman).
Like for fucks sakes: they spend the first 20-30 minutes doing intro's, have two characters that could have easily been left on the cutting room floor for all the impact they had on the plot and the joker was completely pointless to the greater plot.
Guys, theres enough god forsaken idiocy involved in DC already, do we really need to condemn them for a hypothetical creative decision they might make regarding a film that just came out?
Yes, given their track record they haven't earned the benefit of a doubt.
If WB really did want to follow Logan, they have a pretty damn good template with Batman Beyond.
A competent DC would have a good template maybe... but Batman Beyond wasn't about old Bruce finding redemption so much as it was finding hope again. They start off in similar places but following the same beats as Logan would turn Beyond into something very, very different... and I'm not sure it would truly work.
There's also the fact that it would introduce yet another Batman into the already convoluted DC movie mess.
If they wanted to go that route, they should dig deeper to find something else. But really, they need to just not try and Parrot what works from Marvel movies. They just need to get it through their heads that the Marvel/Disney stuff has a competent head that respects the source material and has a pretty good (yet adaptable) vision for how the movies fit together.
And that all the movies that work for Marvel are made to be competent movies in general, not just a superhero movie.
DC has shown they are more than willing to go steal the cloth popular Marvel movies are made from, with no understanding of how to actually do anything with it competently.
I have to admit that I've not read all that many Marvel comics and even fewer DC ones, but my impression has been that the major characters differ in a few key ways. The Marvel material I've seen/read has focused on teams and on intercharacter dynamics (what some people might call 'superhero soap opera'), whereas the big DC characters (I'm thinking especially of Superman and Batman) strike me as more immediately iconic and mythological. If this is the case, it would render most attempts to copy what Marvel is doing futile, since you'd have to change the characters until they're closer to Marvel or the storytelling approaches wouldn't work well.
However, as I've said, I don't know the comics all that well, in particular the DC ones, so this may simply be a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of the comics and characters.
Thirith on
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I have to admit that I've not read all that many Marvel comics and even fewer DC ones, but my impression has been that the major characters differ in a few key ways. The Marvel material I've seen/read has focused on teams and on intercharacter dynamics (what some people might call 'superhero soap opera'), whereas the big DC characters (I'm thinking especially of Superman and Batman) strike me as more immediately iconic and mythological. If this is the case, it would render most attempts to copy what Marvel is doing futile, since you'd have to change the characters until they're closer to Marvel or the storytelling approaches wouldn't work well.
However, as I've said, I don't know the comics all that well, in particular the DC ones, so this may simply be a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of the comics and characters.
DC comics tend to be more about gods trying to act human, where Marvel tends to be humans trying to act like gods.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Batman Beyond only worked as well as it did because of the foundation of TAS.
Batman Beyond only worked as well as it did because of the foundation of TAS.
I'd argue this point; For me, Terry was a much more compelling character because he was growing into the role of Batman while trying to maintain some sort of life that a high schooler with middle income parents could provide as opposed to a guy with untold billions years of training and memorization of wikipedia in its entirety.
If WB really did want to follow Logan, they have a pretty damn good template with Batman Beyond.
Wouldn't it be contemporary now? I mean it's set two years in the future.
Also the template for Batman Beyond is basically Spiderman.
Eh, sorta. The mentor element is pretty huge. Peter trying to figure it all out on his own vs. the Beyond guy (who I liked but I can't remember his name) dealing with Bruce.
I now demand a Batman Beyond with Michael Keaton as Bruce with a constant internal monologue about how he could be doing things so much better than the young'un.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
batman beyond doesn't work unless the audience already has a concept of bruce wayne; maybe BvS/Justice League establish the affleck batman enough for it to work, but 1) it sounds like affleck may not want to be involved that much longer and 2) if he does, are you really gonna push him offscreen the way a Beyond film would need to?
on the other hand, dystopian future where the good guys struggle futile-ly and everything sucks would be a better fit for snyder's 'talents'
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
batman beyond doesn't work unless the audience already has a concept of bruce wayne; maybe BvS/Justice League establish the affleck batman enough for it to work, but 1) it sounds like affleck may not want to be involved that much longer and 2) if he does, are you really gonna push him offscreen the way a Beyond film would need to?
on the other hand, dystopian future where the good guys struggle futile-ly and everything sucks would be a better fit for snyder's 'talents'
I think the Batman Beyond show does work pretty well even if you've never seen Batman: TAS since they do enough within the show itself to establish what kind of person Bruce used to be and how much things have changed.
They establish a lot with that very first scene of Batman having a heart attack while fighting those thugs and then being forced to use a gun to save himself. They tell you right there that this is a Batman who hates guns and that being forced to use a gun is what caused him to quit.
Also, Logan may be depressing but it had plenty of humanity and heart. Someone like Zack Snyder would have totally ruined it and done stupid crap like having characters randomly cuss for no reason, glorify the violence, focused on how cool and badass Laura's actions scenes are with highly detailed slow mo shots of her disemboweling people, put Logan in the Christ pose every 5 minutes, and have Xavier wax philosophical about how the mutants thought they were gods but are being punished by God for their hubris.
KingofMadCows on
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
I've been re-watching the DC Animated Universe shows for the past couple of months to help remind me why I fell in love with these characters in the first place. It creates an interesting juxtaposition with the DC Cinematic Universe. Nothing underpins this better than the approach to Amanda Waller. In the DCAU they spent a decade setting up the characters shared universe. They started out as tales of adventure with Batman or Superman simply reacting to escalating criminal activity. There was no need for a Waller or her tactics. Superman was just there to help, he didn't get involved in politics. It was Superman falling to Darkseid's brainwashing at the end of Superman TAS that escalated things to the point where the government felt like it needed Wallerism. In her world there are a bunch of superpowered beings sitting in an orbital WMD, all with questionable judgement. Amanda Waller is an antagonistic character by nature and only works when there is a clear pattern of escalation requiring her presence. She feeds on this escalation and will do literally anything to maintain the upper hand.
Contrast that with Amanda Waller's current iteration. She just comes across as a murdering psychopath with no clear motivation or end game. We have only had 2 movies, 1 of which was an origin story, to establish the characters and escalate things to where Wallerism was needed. Neither MoS or BvS seemed to manufacture the sort of escalation that her character demands. Man of Steel was mostly origin and a reaction to Zod. Batman v Superman was again just more reaction to threats. First reacting to each other, than reacting to Luthor and CGI Monsterman. The end of BvS basically just left everything static quo, save for Superman being dead. Since you never really see him being much of a superhero and most of the threats he dealt with were man made, Wallerism makes no sense. Waller didn't see Bruce's visions so all she knows is that superman saved some people and killed one of his own kind. Her character doesn't match that of someone trying to create a "squad" of of super villains to make up for a dead superman. Bottom line, the main antagonist in SS should have been a superhero for her character to make ANY sense.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on for hours about how movie Superman isn't a superhero and totally fails to understand what truth, justice and the american way are. IMO everyone should read "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?" and "All Star Superman" or at least watch the animated features based upon them. They really get to the heart of Superman as a character and his role in the world. I could rant and rant about how Batman carrying around a gun and murdering mooks goes against the last 50 years of character development and how everyone should read Dark Knight Returns (or again watch the animated feature) to get at the heart of what Batman stands for as a character and a symbol. I could also find a way to bitch about Wonder Woman and how badly her character misses the mark, recommending people check out "Gods and Mortals". But I'll just leave it at that for now.
I have to admit that I've not read all that many Marvel comics and even fewer DC ones, but my impression has been that the major characters differ in a few key ways. The Marvel material I've seen/read has focused on teams and on intercharacter dynamics (what some people might call 'superhero soap opera'), whereas the big DC characters (I'm thinking especially of Superman and Batman) strike me as more immediately iconic and mythological. If this is the case, it would render most attempts to copy what Marvel is doing futile, since you'd have to change the characters until they're closer to Marvel or the storytelling approaches wouldn't work well.
However, as I've said, I don't know the comics all that well, in particular the DC ones, so this may simply be a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of the comics and characters.
DC comics tend to be more about gods trying to act human, where Marvel tends to be humans trying to act like gods.
That used to be true when they first started, and the eras that followed - over the decades the two are interchangeable and this primary is about the Big Seven (Batman, Superman, J'onn, WW, Aquaman etc), everything else is virtually inter changeable and tire's been so much copying from each other there's very little difference. Look at the shows Justice League/Unlimited/Young Justice and Avengers: EMH, the similarities are striking while are being faithful to both universes.
Yeah, the difference between Marvel and DC isn't that big. Especially considering how many comic writers have worked on both DC and Marvel. Some of the biggest names in comics have done stuff for both companies. The heads of DC and Marvel comics have worked for the other team. Joseph Quesada worked for DC before Marvel. Same with Jeph Loeb. Bob Harras was at Marvel before DC.
Animation is like that too. There are tons of people who worked for both DC and Marvel animation. Boyd Kirkland, who was main story editor for X-Men: Evolution, Wolverine and the X-Men, and Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes directed a bunch of Batman: TAS episodes. Greg Weisman, the showrunner for Young Justice, was also showrunner on Spectacular Spider-Man and Gargoyles, and he wrote for shows like The Batman and Batman: Brave and the Bold. You also have storyboard artists and directors like Lauren Montgomery, Jay Oliva, Rick Morales, Vinton Heuck, etc. who regularly work on both DC and Marvel shows.
It's really the movies that are different since there really haven't been enough comic book movies for to much overlap with the creative talents. There haven't really been MCU movies that hired DC writers or DC movies that hired MCU directors.
The first thing I said to my buddy after watching TDKR in theaters was how perfect it would've been if
"Robin" was actually revealed to be Terry McGuiness.
I've wanted a Batman Beyond movie (and continue to hope the next Arkham game is BB) for ages but I sure as shit don't want the current filmmakers to touch that property.
The first thing I said to my buddy after watching TDKR in theaters was how perfect it would've been if
"Robin" was actually revealed to be Terry McGuiness.
I've wanted a Batman Beyond movie (and continue to hope the next Arkham game is BB) for ages but I sure as shit don't want the current filmmakers to touch that property.
TKDR just didn't work for me. It felt like it was trying to tackle too many things at once - the return of the League of Shadows, the retirement of Batman, the Gotham police state, the backbreaking battle with Bane, Bruce's relationships to Talia and Selina, Robin - and in the end it didn't do justice to any one of them.
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by ninjas
I dunno... it's hard to answer that. Hypothetically I'd agree.
But given how they have reacted thus far... yeah, hard deny that it's a very real possibility, especially given the chaos that appears to be the current status of the upcoming DC lineup.
Who are all talking like Alfred.
From my point of view, WB has fucked the DC film department pretty hard by a combination of lack of proper planning, pretentiousness while plainly aping their most obvious competitor, poor vision and incompetent writers/directors/cinematographers, and it is easily in their best interest to terminate the existing DCFU rather then trudge on because it is still marginally profitable.
I have basically zero faith in them at this point.
The problem is these movies are still making money.
The people in charge obviously have no concern about the integrity of the DC cinematic universe... so as long as they still make some money, I have no faith that they won't just pound these movies out and stomp any chance of seeing a good DC movie into the ground for a long time coming.
Thing is, I'm wondering how much longer they can possibly be profitable; they've got three films out that could very generously be described as flawed, it stands to reason that people are going to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt sooner or later (probably sooner, given how RT shows a clear downward trajectory in the tomatometer across their three offerings).
Hard to say, a lot of people love those movies, and then there are people who seem to watch whatever is the big budget movie of the week.
Is there enough of them to continue making more? How many transformer movies do we have?
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
No seriously I'm asking if they have.
Eh, the makeup guys won an Oscar, not the film.
And if it hadn't been for the Best Picture screw up, that probably would have been the big news from the Oscars, and not in a good way. Almost everything I read was that Star Trek should have won, and Joker's make-up alone should have completely disqualified Suicide Squad.
It also got a 26%/63% critic/audience rating and 2 razzie nominations (which it likely would have won if it hadn't been competing against Batman V Superman).
Like for fucks sakes: they spend the first 20-30 minutes doing intro's, have two characters that could have easily been left on the cutting room floor for all the impact they had on the plot and the joker was completely pointless to the greater plot.
This is not what good movies look like.
Yes, given their track record they haven't earned the benefit of a doubt.
A competent DC would have a good template maybe... but Batman Beyond wasn't about old Bruce finding redemption so much as it was finding hope again. They start off in similar places but following the same beats as Logan would turn Beyond into something very, very different... and I'm not sure it would truly work.
There's also the fact that it would introduce yet another Batman into the already convoluted DC movie mess.
If they wanted to go that route, they should dig deeper to find something else. But really, they need to just not try and Parrot what works from Marvel movies. They just need to get it through their heads that the Marvel/Disney stuff has a competent head that respects the source material and has a pretty good (yet adaptable) vision for how the movies fit together.
And that all the movies that work for Marvel are made to be competent movies in general, not just a superhero movie.
DC has shown they are more than willing to go steal the cloth popular Marvel movies are made from, with no understanding of how to actually do anything with it competently.
Wouldn't it be contemporary now? I mean it's set two years in the future.
Also the template for Batman Beyond is basically Spiderman.
However, as I've said, I don't know the comics all that well, in particular the DC ones, so this may simply be a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of the comics and characters.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
DC comics tend to be more about gods trying to act human, where Marvel tends to be humans trying to act like gods.
I'd argue this point; For me, Terry was a much more compelling character because he was growing into the role of Batman while trying to maintain some sort of life that a high schooler with middle income parents could provide as opposed to a guy with untold billions years of training and memorization of wikipedia in its entirety.
Old Bruce is Aunt May?
Eh, sorta. The mentor element is pretty huge. Peter trying to figure it all out on his own vs. the Beyond guy (who I liked but I can't remember his name) dealing with Bruce.
I now demand a Batman Beyond with Michael Keaton as Bruce with a constant internal monologue about how he could be doing things so much better than the young'un.
well, yeah. not the first time he's dressed up as old lady.
hey, if Schwarzenegger can fit in side an old lady, so can batman.
on the other hand, dystopian future where the good guys struggle futile-ly and everything sucks would be a better fit for snyder's 'talents'
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Are we not doing "Phrasing" anymore?
C'mon his maid was only like 40 something, that's not that old.
I think the Batman Beyond show does work pretty well even if you've never seen Batman: TAS since they do enough within the show itself to establish what kind of person Bruce used to be and how much things have changed.
They establish a lot with that very first scene of Batman having a heart attack while fighting those thugs and then being forced to use a gun to save himself. They tell you right there that this is a Batman who hates guns and that being forced to use a gun is what caused him to quit.
Also, Logan may be depressing but it had plenty of humanity and heart. Someone like Zack Snyder would have totally ruined it and done stupid crap like having characters randomly cuss for no reason, glorify the violence, focused on how cool and badass Laura's actions scenes are with highly detailed slow mo shots of her disemboweling people, put Logan in the Christ pose every 5 minutes, and have Xavier wax philosophical about how the mutants thought they were gods but are being punished by God for their hubris.
Contrast that with Amanda Waller's current iteration. She just comes across as a murdering psychopath with no clear motivation or end game. We have only had 2 movies, 1 of which was an origin story, to establish the characters and escalate things to where Wallerism was needed. Neither MoS or BvS seemed to manufacture the sort of escalation that her character demands. Man of Steel was mostly origin and a reaction to Zod. Batman v Superman was again just more reaction to threats. First reacting to each other, than reacting to Luthor and CGI Monsterman. The end of BvS basically just left everything static quo, save for Superman being dead. Since you never really see him being much of a superhero and most of the threats he dealt with were man made, Wallerism makes no sense. Waller didn't see Bruce's visions so all she knows is that superman saved some people and killed one of his own kind. Her character doesn't match that of someone trying to create a "squad" of of super villains to make up for a dead superman. Bottom line, the main antagonist in SS should have been a superhero for her character to make ANY sense.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on for hours about how movie Superman isn't a superhero and totally fails to understand what truth, justice and the american way are. IMO everyone should read "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?" and "All Star Superman" or at least watch the animated features based upon them. They really get to the heart of Superman as a character and his role in the world. I could rant and rant about how Batman carrying around a gun and murdering mooks goes against the last 50 years of character development and how everyone should read Dark Knight Returns (or again watch the animated feature) to get at the heart of what Batman stands for as a character and a symbol. I could also find a way to bitch about Wonder Woman and how badly her character misses the mark, recommending people check out "Gods and Mortals". But I'll just leave it at that for now.
That used to be true when they first started, and the eras that followed - over the decades the two are interchangeable and this primary is about the Big Seven (Batman, Superman, J'onn, WW, Aquaman etc), everything else is virtually inter changeable and tire's been so much copying from each other there's very little difference. Look at the shows Justice League/Unlimited/Young Justice and Avengers: EMH, the similarities are striking while are being faithful to both universes.
Animation is like that too. There are tons of people who worked for both DC and Marvel animation. Boyd Kirkland, who was main story editor for X-Men: Evolution, Wolverine and the X-Men, and Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes directed a bunch of Batman: TAS episodes. Greg Weisman, the showrunner for Young Justice, was also showrunner on Spectacular Spider-Man and Gargoyles, and he wrote for shows like The Batman and Batman: Brave and the Bold. You also have storyboard artists and directors like Lauren Montgomery, Jay Oliva, Rick Morales, Vinton Heuck, etc. who regularly work on both DC and Marvel shows.
It's really the movies that are different since there really haven't been enough comic book movies for to much overlap with the creative talents. There haven't really been MCU movies that hired DC writers or DC movies that hired MCU directors.
I've wanted a Batman Beyond movie (and continue to hope the next Arkham game is BB) for ages but I sure as shit don't want the current filmmakers to touch that property.
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TKDR just didn't work for me. It felt like it was trying to tackle too many things at once - the return of the League of Shadows, the retirement of Batman, the Gotham police state, the backbreaking battle with Bane, Bruce's relationships to Talia and Selina, Robin - and in the end it didn't do justice to any one of them.