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Penny Arcade - Comic - As Father And Son
Dog
Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
Penny Arcade - Comic - As Father And Son
Videogaming-related online strip by Mike Krahulik and Jerry Holkins. Includes news and commentary.
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Lesson 2: No, seriously, read them, don't just skim.
(I had this epiphany many years ago, as a SW RPG game master.)
Jerry is the Sith Lord gloating in the shadows behind this interchange. Mike is turning his son to the Text Side and Jerry will rejoice.
If the ability says "may" it's optional. That was not cheating.
You neglecting to read the rules isn't the same as me cheating.
"Hey dad-remember all those cruel tricks you played on me that I never told the school therapist about?"
"...you know what? We're good."
Edit: Funny story-I ended up being adopted by my aunt and uncle after I almost died when I was a baby because mom couldn't afford to take care of both my sister and I after my dad left. My uncle was a great guy but he had a very twisted sense of humor. One day when I was around nine he came home and told me he'd gotten something for me. I was a pretty chubby kid back then and I would later realize I had an eating disorder but at the time my aunt and uncle just thought I liked to eat. Anyways he opens this bag and in it is the biggest Oreo cookie I've ever seen. It was about the size of a dinner plate and over an inch thick. My eyes went wide and I was filled with a great excitement. I loved Oreo's (still do) and immediately set upon it like the proverbial monkey on a muffin. It was only then I realized the cruel, cruel joke my uncle had played on me for as soon as I bit into the thing my mouth was filled with the bitter taste of Oreo-scented soap.
At the time I felt betrayed but I got over it quickly enough yet from that point on any time he told me he had something for me I had a hard time trusting him and would become very suspicious.
This always sounded vaguely dishonest to me.
Like yes, you were weak and I hurt you because you were weak. But that's only because I want to help you learn to not be weak.
Well no, the real reason is that I just like winning. Gabe even admits it.
Any additional justification he provides is lying. So that's to his credit.
I run into this shit with gamers all the time. No, no. You actually aren't giving the newcomer tough love. You just like having fun at his expense. If you're going to help, actually help. If you're not going to, don't lie about it.
I run into this shit in League of Legends and Path of Exile all the time.
I get that people like easy and opportunistic wins just because they're taking advantage of another person's temporary weakness.
But if they're coming to you for advice and you're just cruelly misleading them or berating them for losing you the game because they're the weak link on the team, or if you're just trying to win the competition to teach them a lesson -- well you're being a dishonest asshole by covering it up with a tough love excuse.
If your intentions are neutral, then you don't have to pretend to be helping them.
Causing people pain to 'teach a lesson' isn't teaching. It's being cruel. All it does is make young people feel terrible about themselves. It erodes their trust and if there's anyone a kid should trust it's their parents. You don't hurt kids to teach them you talk to them like intelligent human beings because that's what they are.
Depends what they're missing on. There's a difference I feel between missing things sitting right in front of them like Rey (who has basically zero cost and should be used almost always) and things where they have to choose between options. The former I think the appropriate thing is to remind them during the game. The latter is more appropriate after the game I think.
And then you get into more complicated skills that just have to be learned over time. A good example would combat math in MtG. I don't think there's any reason to hold it against someone not walking their opponent through that mid-game (or after, either...)
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In general I agree. But I play with a guy, who is in fact a teacher, that just acts like an a-hole about it. Basically doing the same thing as Gabe in the comic. He'll put on his teacher face after the fact and say "you know, you should have tapped this, did that, blah blah blah" looking down his nose at you the whole time. Acting like he's trying to help when he's actually just gloating.
It's not that I don't get that the latter is totally fun and harmless when it's just a a game with no real consequences. And I get that Gabe would tell him how to learn from defeat after he has had the satisfaction of completely dominating him. It's one of those rare situations where you can have your cake and eat it.
What I absolutely detest is pretending that this isn't what is actually happening. All well and good that you teach your offspring how to think critically and to develop skillsets that rebounds from defeat. But come on. Sometimes you just wanna win. And win big.
Out of curiosity, do you have a kid? The thing with kids is that it's often really hard to try to get through their layer of obliviousness. The other thing is that this isn't really "pain". Losing a card game is an inconvenience, or "not fun", but it's not "pain." That's another lesson they'll have to learn.
An example of the "just talking to them like a rational adult doesn't work, so sometimes you have to get creative":
My 5 year old gets along with his 1 year old sister pretty well. But he keeps doing a specific thing that's quite annoying. He'll try to get her interested in something she can't/is not suppose have. Like last night, right before bedtime, he said "You want a BATH?" She loves bath, because it's basically like going to a swimming pool for her. (Side note: She'd already had a couple of baths, one due to vomit and the other due to... applesauce? I can't even remember.)
So he's saying this with the tone in his voice that says "I know I'm being a jerk." Parents know what I'm talking about. We've both tried over and over explaining to him how this is not a nice thing to do to her. This time, I took a different approach. I said, "Do you want a slice of cake?" He said, "Yeah!" When I told him there was no cake, he immediately got quite frowny (and not just the melodramatic manufactured frown - parents know what I'm talking about). "That wasn't very nice." So I explained to him that this is how he's trying to make his sister feel. I think he actually finally got it.
This is no guarantee that it will stop that behavior but as parents you do what you can. I think it was a bit cruel, but it popped the bubble and actually penetrated his brain. That's a huge victory in my book.
If kids are more than 5-6 yo I think there is generally more benefit to not helping them too much in games. My wife likes to help too much which I think is worse as they never learn how to do stuff on their own or how to deal with losing.
The plus side for not helping them much is that it really is an accomplishment for them when they can beat you in certain games. My daughter (7yo) was so proud of herself when she managed to get me to concede in chess a couple weeks ago.
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