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Chelsea Manning's Sentence Commuted

Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister It Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered User regular
In the waning days of his administration, President Obama has commuted Chelsea Manning's prison sentence. She will be a free woman come May.

Also, this

http://time.com/4633920/wikileaks-julian-assange-extradition-chelsea-manning/

Julian Assange had agreed to extradition, as he said he would if Manning's sentence was commuted.

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    dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    I didn't see any evidence of malicious intent during the coverage of the trial. Whether it was a desire to get out of service, mental instability or she didn't feel comfortable it did take a pretty good amount of courage (even if wrongly placed) to do the things. You don't get to torture someone for 31 years for being a whistle blower.

    Issues of gender and sex aren't relevant, and I have opinions about spending money on that sort of treatment for inmates because prison does really strange things to people and it's not an inexpensive process. I know many people who got some sort of physical sensation of glee over locking her up because she was Trans, and honestly fuck those people.

    Assange is a scumbag rapist coward who won't ever hold up his end of a bargain that may see him go to an actual court instead of hide in an embassy.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    I'm always glad to see clemency extended to those who will never have the opportunity to repeat the mistake that landed them in prison in the first place.

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    This is surprising! My cynicism about Obama's unyielding stance on LAW AND ORDER was nearly impenetrable

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    dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    This is surprising! My cynicism about Obama's unyielding stance on LAW AND ORDER was nearly impenetrable

    I always sort of figured it was him playing the angle and trying to not poison the well for whomever had to run this last election. It's unfortunate, but I'm sure that he knew all it would take is a Republican in the White House and 8 years of work would get dragged out back and shot in the head. At this point, I'd like him to go out as classy as possible and this is a pretty (very late) classy move.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I didn't see any evidence of malicious intent during the coverage of the trial. Whether it was a desire to get out of service, mental instability or she didn't feel comfortable it did take a pretty good amount of courage (even if wrongly placed) to do the things. You don't get to torture someone for 31 years for being a whistle blower.

    Ugh. There's a certain level of recklessness where you no longer get to claim protection as a whistleblower. I will say that it's questionable whether she should have even had access anymore, and intent was questionable at best, so the sentence was...excessive. I'm comfortable with this outcome. But whistleblower? No.

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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    I can all but guarantee that Asange is going to find an excuse to renege on his end of this.

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    dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I didn't see any evidence of malicious intent during the coverage of the trial. Whether it was a desire to get out of service, mental instability or she didn't feel comfortable it did take a pretty good amount of courage (even if wrongly placed) to do the things. You don't get to torture someone for 31 years for being a whistle blower.

    Ugh. There's a certain level of recklessness where you no longer get to claim protection as a whistleblower. I will say that it's questionable whether she should have even had access anymore, and intent was questionable at best, so the sentence was...excessive. I'm comfortable with this outcome. But whistleblower? No.

    I will concede that she was not a good whistleblower, trying to do a thing and having it go poorly because you're awful at it or reckless doesn't in my mind necessarily mean you're acting in bad faith. I suppose since it couldn't be proven she wasn't being malicious then you're in the right on this. I do think the harm she did was in principle more in the neighborhood of hurt feelings and ego... it's not okay for the military to try to crucify someone purely because they can.

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    knitdanknitdan In ur base Killin ur guysRegistered User regular
    edited January 2017
    Maybe Assange knows his paymasters won't let Trump do anything to him, and that's why he's suddenly so open to the idea.

    knitdan on
    “I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
    -Indiana Solo, runner of blades
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    re Assange :

    as far as I know there's never been an extradition request to begin with, nor is he even charged with anything in the US. TBH his excuse for hanging out in the embassy has always been a bit thin, because it's easier for the US to extradite from the UK.

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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    knitdan wrote: »
    Maybe Assange knows his paymasters won't let Trump do anything to him, and that's why he's suddenly so open to the idea.

    Or, y'know. Maybe he's making good with his end of the deal.

    With Love and Courage
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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    knitdan wrote: »
    Maybe Assange knows his paymasters won't let Trump do anything to him, and that's why he's suddenly so open to the idea.

    Or, y'know. Maybe he's making good with his end of the deal.

    Care to make a wager on that?

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    Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    I'm more pissed off about his pardon of Oscar Rivera, an unrepentant left-wing 70s mass murderer. Offered a pardon in 1999 by Bill Clinton to win Hispanic votes for his wife's New York election he refused because it meant he had to say he was sorry for murdering people and planting dozens of bombs.

    The man's a monster and there's no fucking reason to pardon him. It's as though the President pardoned the Unabomber.

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    dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    I'm more pissed off about his pardon of Oscar Rivera, an unrepentant left-wing 70s mass murderer. Offered a pardon in 1999 by Bill Clinton to win Hispanic votes for his wife's New York election he refused because it meant he had to say he was sorry for murdering people and planting dozens of bombs.

    The man's a monster and there's no fucking reason to pardon him. It's as though the President pardoned the Unabomber.

    That seems like a pretty fair and balanced place to read about a thing that isn't at all related to Chelsea Manning or Assange.

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    tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    edited January 2017
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I didn't see any evidence of malicious intent during the coverage of the trial. Whether it was a desire to get out of service, mental instability or she didn't feel comfortable it did take a pretty good amount of courage (even if wrongly placed) to do the things. You don't get to torture someone for 31 years for being a whistle blower.

    Ugh. There's a certain level of recklessness where you no longer get to claim protection as a whistleblower. I will say that it's questionable whether she should have even had access anymore, and intent was questionable at best, so the sentence was...excessive. I'm comfortable with this outcome. But whistleblower? No.

    I will concede that she was not a good whistleblower, trying to do a thing and having it go poorly because you're awful at it or reckless doesn't in my mind necessarily mean you're acting in bad faith. I suppose since it couldn't be proven she wasn't being malicious then you're in the right on this. I do think the harm she did was in principle more in the neighborhood of hurt feelings and ego... it's not okay for the military to try to crucify someone purely because they can.

    She isn't being crucified because they can. She's imprisoned because she willfully, with forethought, on multiple occasions leaked 700,000 classified documents that she could have no possible way of knowing the contents of. Hell, she only got arrested when she did because she felt the need to brag about it while doing it to someone online. It wasn't a one time thing, or a "X talked me into copying a file or installing a program" situation. It was an ongoing series of acts she as an intelligence analyst knew were illegal at the time.

    People always bring up the vague and nonspecific act of 'whistle blowing' like it somehow applies just because her stated goals were whatever ideological mess they were, but ideologically motivated spies have been a thing forever-MICE after all- that doesn't make them not spies.

    I'd also point out what we know now that, at least publicly, wasn't known at the time of the trial; Wikileaks the organization she was a mole for has(again maybe not at the time) a working relationship of some type with the Russian FSB.

    31 years with parole possible at 8 was fine. You don't get to willfully break a bunch of laws and then scream persecution when you a punished well below the maximum threshold for those laws you so proudly flaunted. Her treatment in prison is more of an issue, but that's a much broader discussion about the US prison system than just this case.

    tinwhiskers on
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    SurikoSuriko AustraliaRegistered User regular
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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    This is surprising! My cynicism about Obama's unyielding stance on LAW AND ORDER was nearly impenetrable

    My cynisism wonders if this would have happened if Clinton won the election.

    Or if Romney won in 2012.

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    HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    I'm not sure I can accurately comment on the leaks because I cannot for the life of me keep the Manning and Snowden leaks straight

    That said I'm pretty happy Manning got pardoned because "Have fun in solitary!" isn't punishment it's fucking torture and we know it's torture and yet

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    TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Why do we want Assange in this country again? Or are we hoping Sweden snatches him up the moment he exits the embassy or something?

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    HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Trace wrote: »
    Why do we want Assange in this country again? Or are we hoping Sweden snatches him up the moment he exits the embassy or something?

    I'm hoping for the latter, because it's so painfully obvious that is what he's actually been dodging.

    PSN: Honkalot
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    @Marcus it would appear that Manning would be another example of your preference for simply hurting someone for no other reason than malice.

    Now let's make something clear, I've argued fiercely that what she did was wrong, illegal, and that her conviction was fair.

    What I don't agree with has been her years of cruel and unusual treatment. It accomplishes nothing and wastes tax dollars. And if we're honest would likely become even crueler under the next administration.

    Given she'll never be in a position to repeat her actions I'm not sure what the opposition to commuting her sentence would be beyond petty cruelty. And if that's all then it's a flagrant disregard for the principles put forth by our constitution.

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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    This is surprising! My cynicism about Obama's unyielding stance on LAW AND ORDER was nearly impenetrable

    My cynisism wonders if this would have happened if Clinton won the election.

    Or if Romney won in 2012.

    I strongly suspect probation at eight years would have happened given she'd clearly shown remorse and would never have another opportunity to commit the same crime. Right up until it turned out the next president has a hard on for maliciousness.

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    FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Trace wrote: »
    Why do we want Assange in this country again? Or are we hoping Sweden snatches him up the moment he exits the embassy or something?

    I'm hoping for the latter, because it's so painfully obvious that is what he's actually been dodging.

    The reason he has avoided Sweden is mainly because we would probably have extradited him to the US as soon as we could.

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    HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2017
    Frozenzen wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Trace wrote: »
    Why do we want Assange in this country again? Or are we hoping Sweden snatches him up the moment he exits the embassy or something?

    I'm hoping for the latter, because it's so painfully obvious that is what he's actually been dodging.

    The reason he has avoided Sweden is mainly because we would probably have extradited him to the US as soon as we could.

    Nope, that is what he claims but it is not true. The reason is more likely he is a rapist.

    The US does not currently want him. The US would not be able to formulate a warrant that Sweden would deem fit to extradite for; Assange was never in the US or under US jurisdiction for any publications that the US could leverage for charges against him. It would also have been difficult to extradite him, given US track record on humane treatment of prisoners (see Manning, GITMO, Federal Death Penalty). It is extremely unlikely that the US, should it have wanted to in the first place, would have been able to get Assange extradited from Sweden.

    Also Assange is a public figure, he would not have been snatched off the street and put on a private plane if you look back and compare for instance how those Egyptian nationals were once extradited to another country with poor track record on torture.

    The US extradition angle is a straight up lie and ruse to avoid a trial here.

    Assange is a coward and a lunatic, and probably a rapist.

    It seems obvious he is an inverse Herostratus. Though certainly an incredible narcissist. He desperately does not want rapist to end up next to his name in the history books so I think it's extremely important that he is remembered most for cowardly dodging even going to trial for it.

    Edit: This is a guy who calls it human rights abuse when he himself specifically chose to live in isolation in order to flee the law that every normal human lives under, citing imaginary persecution from another state as the reason for it.

    Honk on
    PSN: Honkalot
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    KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited January 2017
    I'm not sure I can accurately comment on the leaks because I cannot for the life of me keep the Manning and Snowden leaks straight

    That said I'm pretty happy Manning got pardoned because "Have fun in solitary!" isn't punishment it's fucking torture and we know it's torture and yet
    Manning was US gunships wantonly slaughtering people

    Snowden was NSA domestic surveillance

    I was generally cool with both leaks, but Manning has already been punished for years, whereas Snowden fled to Russia (arguably a reasonable action under the circumstances, but hardly heroic). I'm glad Obama did this.

    Kaputa on
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    WassermeloneWassermelone Registered User regular
    Snowden wasn't fleeing TO Russia, he was fleeing to Ecuador and was going through Russia.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Snowden wasn't fleeing TO Russia, he was fleeing to Ecuador and was going through Russia.

    Well, originally he was fleeing to Hong Kong, because he didn't know it was part of China.

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    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    Suriko wrote: »

    Sounds like they're trying to ensure no charges will be pursued before committing to Assange leaving the embassy.

    "I'll agree to extradition so long as you never request it"

    I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Snowden wasn't fleeing TO Russia, he was fleeing to Ecuador and was going through Russia.

    Part of my brain wants to say him getting stuck in Russia was deliberate timing, because look how conveniently it discredited him and got everyone to think he was intending to end up there. Realistically it was probably coincidence, but it seems trivial if the federal government wanted to time it that way.

    Well, not that he hasn't shown himself to be an idiot since then. With good intentions, but still an idiot.

    Steam: Polaritie
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited January 2017
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Snowden wasn't fleeing TO Russia, he was fleeing to Ecuador and was going through Russia.

    Part of my brain wants to say him getting stuck in Russia was deliberate timing, because look how conveniently it discredited him and got everyone to think he was intending to end up there. Realistically it was probably coincidence, but it seems trivial if the federal government wanted to time it that way.

    Well, not that he hasn't shown himself to be an idiot since then. With good intentions, but still an idiot.

    Basically, he got stuck in Russia because that's the only place he could've gone once China got what they wanted and had him gone.

    Fencingsax on
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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Snowden wasn't fleeing TO Russia, he was fleeing to Ecuador and was going through Russia.

    Part of my brain wants to say him getting stuck in Russia was deliberate timing, because look how conveniently it discredited him and got everyone to think he was intending to end up there. Realistically it was probably coincidence, but it seems trivial if the federal government wanted to time it that way.

    Well, not that he hasn't shown himself to be an idiot since then. With good intentions, but still an idiot.

    Basically, he got stuck in Russia because that's tbe only place he could've gone once China got what they wanted and had him gone.

    He got stuck in Russia because his passport was revoked before he got on the next plane. He was stuck in the airport for a couple weeks.

    Steam: Polaritie
    3DS: 0473-8507-2652
    Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
    PSN: AbEntropy
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    kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    re Assange :

    as far as I know there's never been an extradition request to begin with, nor is he even charged with anything in the US. TBH his excuse for hanging out in the embassy has always been a bit thin, because it's easier for the US to extradite from the UK.

    Yup the only extradition request is from the swiss for the rape accusation.

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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    kaid wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    re Assange :

    as far as I know there's never been an extradition request to begin with, nor is he even charged with anything in the US. TBH his excuse for hanging out in the embassy has always been a bit thin, because it's easier for the US to extradite from the UK.

    Yup the only extradition request is from the swiss for the rape accusation.

    Wow, he went to Switzerland too?

    :rotate:

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    Peter EbelPeter Ebel CopenhagenRegistered User regular
    kaid wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    re Assange :

    as far as I know there's never been an extradition request to begin with, nor is he even charged with anything in the US. TBH his excuse for hanging out in the embassy has always been a bit thin, because it's easier for the US to extradite from the UK.

    Yup the only extradition request is from the swiss for the rape accusation.

    Swedes, though.

    Fuck off and die.
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    SmurphSmurph Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    I'm not sure I can accurately comment on the leaks because I cannot for the life of me keep the Manning and Snowden leaks straight

    That said I'm pretty happy Manning got pardoned because "Have fun in solitary!" isn't punishment it's fucking torture and we know it's torture and yet
    Manning was US gunships wantonly slaughtering people

    Snowden was NSA domestic surveillance

    I was generally cool with both leaks, but Manning has already been punished for years, whereas Snowden fled to Russia (arguably a reasonable action under the circumstances, but hardly heroic). I'm glad Obama did this.

    My main issue is with the way the two leaks were executed. Snowden, at least according to him, meticulously gathered the data he wanted to leak, leaked it to actual journalists, and left out things that he thought could get people killed or do actual harm to important legitimate intelligence operations. Manning basically gave Wikileaks as much as she could get her hands on. I'm glad Manning's sentence was commuted, but I've always felt that pardoning Snowden is an easier argument to make. And the whole "He never stood trial" thing should not matter, lots of people have been preemptively pardoned without standing trial.

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    DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Smurph wrote: »
    Kaputa wrote: »
    I'm not sure I can accurately comment on the leaks because I cannot for the life of me keep the Manning and Snowden leaks straight

    That said I'm pretty happy Manning got pardoned because "Have fun in solitary!" isn't punishment it's fucking torture and we know it's torture and yet
    Manning was US gunships wantonly slaughtering people

    Snowden was NSA domestic surveillance

    I was generally cool with both leaks, but Manning has already been punished for years, whereas Snowden fled to Russia (arguably a reasonable action under the circumstances, but hardly heroic). I'm glad Obama did this.

    My main issue is with the way the two leaks were executed. Snowden, at least according to him, meticulously gathered the data he wanted to leak, leaked it to actual journalists, and left out things that he thought could get people killed or do actual harm to important legitimate intelligence operations. Manning basically gave Wikileaks as much as she could get her hands on. I'm glad Manning's sentence was commuted, but I've always felt that pardoning Snowden is an easier argument to make. And the whole "He never stood trial" thing should not matter, lots of people have been preemptively pardoned without standing trial.

    My problem with Snowden is didn't he go out and get the security job to leak information? That's not really whistle blowing in that context.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Marcus it would appear that Manning would be another example of your preference for simply hurting someone for no other reason than malice.

    Now let's make something clear, I've argued fiercely that what she did was wrong, illegal, and that her conviction was fair.

    What I don't agree with has been her years of cruel and unusual treatment. It accomplishes nothing and wastes tax dollars. And if we're honest would likely become even crueler under the next administration.

    Given she'll never be in a position to repeat her actions I'm not sure what the opposition to commuting her sentence would be beyond petty cruelty. And if that's all then it's a flagrant disregard for the principles put forth by our constitution.

    This is why a commutation rather than a pardon was appropriate. Its important to not send the message what was done was OK, but enough has been suffered, especially given her mental illness.

    11793-1.png
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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    This is surprising! My cynicism about Obama's unyielding stance on LAW AND ORDER was nearly impenetrable
    Today, 273 individuals learned that the President has given them a second chance. With today’s 209 grants of commutation, the President has now commuted the sentences of 1,385 individuals – the most grants of commutation issued by any President in this nation’s history. President Obama’s 1,385 commutation grants – which includes 504 life sentences – is also more than the total number of commutations issued by the past 12 presidents combined. And with today’s 64 pardons, the President has now granted a total of 212 pardons.

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    matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    So Assange has now said he won't be surrendering, because Manning wasn't released "immediately."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/julian-assange-chelsea-manning-barack-obama-hand-in-embassy-arrest-extradition-us-a7533911.html
    The commitment to accept extradition to the US was based on Ms Manning being released immediately, Mr Assange's lawyer told The Hill. Ms Manning won't actually be released until May – to allow for a standard 120-day transition period, which gives people time to prepare and find somewhere to live, an official told The New York Times for its original report about Ms Manning's clemency.

    “Mr. Assange welcomes the announcement that Ms. Manning's sentence will be reduced and she will be released in May, but this is well short of what he sought,” Barry Pollack, Assange’s US-based attorney, told the site. “Mr. Assange had called for Chelsea Manning to receive clemency and be released immediately.”

    nibXTE7.png
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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited January 2017
    So Assange has now said he won't be surrendering, because Manning wasn't released "immediately."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/julian-assange-chelsea-manning-barack-obama-hand-in-embassy-arrest-extradition-us-a7533911.html
    The commitment to accept extradition to the US was based on Ms Manning being released immediately, Mr Assange's lawyer told The Hill. Ms Manning won't actually be released until May – to allow for a standard 120-day transition period, which gives people time to prepare and find somewhere to live, an official told The New York Times for its original report about Ms Manning's clemency.

    “Mr. Assange welcomes the announcement that Ms. Manning's sentence will be reduced and she will be released in May, but this is well short of what he sought,” Barry Pollack, Assange’s US-based attorney, told the site. “Mr. Assange had called for Chelsea Manning to receive clemency and be released immediately.”

    Did anyone seriously think this twit was going to go through with this?

    Gaddez on
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    matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    Nope!

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