The Ninja Gaiden demo is pretty tasty.
Virtua Tennis isn't bad either.
Both a lot better than the last demo (Armored Core) pew what a stinkburger that game is...
I can't understand why you would put "aim" on the right analog and "fire" on a face button. Come on, stupid, if they're aiming with the right analog, they do not have their thumb over the face buttons! Use the triggers, you've got four of them!
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RankenphilePassersby were amazedby the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderatormod
The Ninja Gaiden demo is pretty tasty.
Virtua Tennis isn't bad either.
Both a lot better than the last demo (Armored Core) pew what a stinkburger that game is...
I can't understand why you would put "aim" on the right analog and "fire" on a face button. Come on, stupid, if they're aiming with the right analog, they do not have their thumb over the face buttons! Use the triggers, you've got four of them!
I hate that shit. That was probably my only complaint about Shadow of the Colossus, that the poor camera could only be corrected with the right stick, but you needed your thumb free at critical moments to jump or make attacks, each of which were virtually impossible when the camera was busy staring up some stone giant's asshole for some reason.
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JC of DII think we're fucked up.I know I am.Registered Userregular
edited April 2007
Maybe they all play fucked up like I do.
Right hand is thumb on analog stick, index finger on face buttons and right bumper/R1, middle finger for trigger/R2.
The Ninja Gaiden demo is pretty tasty.
Virtua Tennis isn't bad either.
Both a lot better than the last demo (Armored Core) pew what a stinkburger that game is...
I can't understand why you would put "aim" on the right analog and "fire" on a face button. Come on, stupid, if they're aiming with the right analog, they do not have their thumb over the face buttons! Use the triggers, you've got four of them!
I hate that shit. That was probably my only complaint about Shadow of the Colossus, that the poor camera could only be corrected with the right stick, but you needed your thumb free at critical moments to jump or make attacks, each of which were virtually impossible when the camera was busy staring up some stone giant's asshole for some reason.
"For some reason" = "Made in Japan"
I am really trying to get this stereotype that all Japanese are ass freaks going.
Right hand is thumb on analog stick, index finger on face buttons and right bumper/R1, middle finger for trigger/R2.
Only way to play doggs.
That's fucking stupid. The PS2 controller is very well-designed, ergonomically speaking, and you've found the most cramp-prone, yoga-like, unergonomic contortion of the hand possible. Why don't you just play with your face (nose) on the face buttons and your tongue pulling the right analog?
Oh and there you go, my one complaint about Ninja Gaiden - you have to quit the game and start it again to change the control layout? I spent most of the time just doing that until I got the X/Y axis shit to what I'm used to.... But, excellent otherwise. Too bad it's not 1080i. I need to get a new TV...
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JC of DII think we're fucked up.I know I am.Registered Userregular
edited April 2007
Maaan, just 'cause I can spin towards you and melee at the same time in Halo don't mean you gotta hate.
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JC of DII think we're fucked up.I know I am.Registered Userregular
The Ninja Gaiden demo is pretty tasty.
Virtua Tennis isn't bad either.
Both a lot better than the last demo (Armored Core) pew what a stinkburger that game is...
I can't understand why you would put "aim" on the right analog and "fire" on a face button. Come on, stupid, if they're aiming with the right analog, they do not have their thumb over the face buttons! Use the triggers, you've got four of them!
I hate that shit. That was probably my only complaint about Shadow of the Colossus, that the poor camera could only be corrected with the right stick, but you needed your thumb free at critical moments to jump or make attacks, each of which were virtually impossible when the camera was busy staring up some stone giant's asshole for some reason.
I blame the Dualshock 2 for giving developers too many options. They haven't got a fucking clue what to do with the thing half the time.
The Ninja Gaiden demo is pretty tasty.
Virtua Tennis isn't bad either.
Both a lot better than the last demo (Armored Core) pew what a stinkburger that game is...
I can't understand why you would put "aim" on the right analog and "fire" on a face button. Come on, stupid, if they're aiming with the right analog, they do not have their thumb over the face buttons! Use the triggers, you've got four of them!
I hate that shit. That was probably my only complaint about Shadow of the Colossus, that the poor camera could only be corrected with the right stick, but you needed your thumb free at critical moments to jump or make attacks, each of which were virtually impossible when the camera was busy staring up some stone giant's asshole for some reason.
I blame the Dualshock 2 for giving developers too many options. They haven't got a fucking clue what to do with the thing half the time.
I don't know, I kind of find that difficult.
I don't think there are too many options, and you can always just, you know, not use some of the features, or use them for things that are really unimportant.
An easy example would be the L trigger on Zelda:OoT, which I realize is not a PS2 game. Since you use the center analog and Z button to play that game, the L trigger is way out of reach. So what does it do? Turns on/off the minimap. That's a neat little function that isn't very important, is rarely ever used, and never needs to be used quickly in combat situations.
In MGS2, to use another example, the right analog did not do anything at all, unless you had the sword drawn. If you did have the sword out, it worked nicely with the face buttons. Your "block" command was on a trigger (which was also unused unless you had the sword drawn). Your regular "attack" face button was just used to flip between the blunt side and the sharp side, which took the character a second to do and wasn't something you'd ever want to do while fighting. Your "punch" button and "roll" buttons were pretty much the same as before, but since punching and rolling were mutually exclusive with slashing and stabbing, you could afford to let go of the stick to use those features. You also generally knew at least a second ahead of time when you wanted to punch or roll, so you could always move your hand early. Even if you wanted to punch or roll right after a sword slash, the recovery time on the end of the slash was long enough to cover the time it took to change from stick to face buttons.
Tenchu 3 had the stick used for the camera. You really didn't need that feature too often, because holding the "stealth," "strafe," or "first-person" buttons would automatically reset the camera angle, and running in a direction would cause the camera to drift back to the default angle gradually anyway. For exploring, sometimes you wanted it, though. But not often, because you could look around much better with FPV mode (at least, that's what I tended to do). So it was a neat function, but again, not a very important one.
Another really good example of an often-ignored feature is the analog nature of the buttons. Hell, I bet most people kind of forget that those buttons can tell the difference between a hard press and a soft press. Even the d-pad can! (I think!) MGS uses that soft-press system to let you point guns without shooting them, or to control how far you lean in FPV mode. But most games just plain don't use the feature; Namco apparently didn't feel that they had to add in "light press" attacks and "heavy press" attacks to Soul Calibur 2 or 3. You can just, you know, not use the feature if you don't need it.
I think that developers who misuse it are the ones to blame. The controller provides a lot of choices, and it's up to the designer to decide how to implement his or her vision.
RankenphilePassersby were amazedby the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderatormod
edited April 2007
I break floating bricks with my head in the hopes that a beanstalk will grow, so that I might climb it to a place in the sky where I can walk on the clouds and collect gold coins.
If I get 100 of the coins, I can come back to life when I die!
Man I wish there was another game that has sword controlls like MGS2
I agree. Those were really nice. They weren't really necessary, though...the system for guarding was, like, "either you are guarding or you are not" and the angle of sword-slashes didn't seem to matter. But it was still cool, and it would be really cool if someone made a game where the sword works like that but the directions actually matter.
Hey, look for Die By The Sword (PC). It has some really interesting inverse-kinematic sword controls. Basically you use the mouse to control the sword and you swing it around pretty dynamically.
I ruitinely smash everything in sight in hopes that money comes out
Sometimes it does!
I saw some large pots, like just big brown clay-looking urns, on a balcony as I drove through a rich neighborhood and I just thought "so does that have big coins in it, or is it orbs to power up my fighting skill?"
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RankenphilePassersby were amazedby the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderatormod
Man I wish there was another game that has sword controlls like MGS2
I agree. Those were really nice. They weren't really necessary, though...the system for guarding was, like, "either you are guarding or you are not" and the angle of sword-slashes didn't seem to matter. But it was still cool, and it would be really cool if someone made a game where the sword works like that but the directions actually matter.
Hey, look for Die By The Sword (PC). It has some really interesting inverse-kinematic sword controls. Basically you use the mouse to control the sword and you swing it around pretty dynamically.
Did you every try Mount and Blade? It did a decent job of giving you some control over the sword. Not nearly as in-depth as Die by the Sword, but I enjoyed it.
Also, man, that game is fantastic considering it is only in pre-beta.
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Tossrocktoo weird to livetoo rare to dieRegistered Userregular
Man I wish there was another game that has sword controlls like MGS2
I agree. Those were really nice. They weren't really necessary, though...the system for guarding was, like, "either you are guarding or you are not" and the angle of sword-slashes didn't seem to matter. But it was still cool, and it would be really cool if someone made a game where the sword works like that but the directions actually matter.
Hey, look for Die By The Sword (PC). It has some really interesting inverse-kinematic sword controls. Basically you use the mouse to control the sword and you swing it around pretty dynamically.
I thought inverse kinematics was a technique for animating joints
Man I wish there was another game that has sword controlls like MGS2
I agree. Those were really nice. They weren't really necessary, though...the system for guarding was, like, "either you are guarding or you are not" and the angle of sword-slashes didn't seem to matter. But it was still cool, and it would be really cool if someone made a game where the sword works like that but the directions actually matter.
Hey, look for Die By The Sword (PC). It has some really interesting inverse-kinematic sword controls. Basically you use the mouse to control the sword and you swing it around pretty dynamically.
Did you every try Mount and Blade? It did a decent job of giving you some control over the sword. Not nearly as in-depth as Die by the Sword, but I enjoyed it.
Also, man, that game is fantastic considering it is only in pre-beta.
Really? Mount and Blade? Never heard of it. So it's in pre-beta now? Is it a full game or a user mod for something else or what?
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
Man I wish there was another game that has sword controlls like MGS2
I agree. Those were really nice. They weren't really necessary, though...the system for guarding was, like, "either you are guarding or you are not" and the angle of sword-slashes didn't seem to matter. But it was still cool, and it would be really cool if someone made a game where the sword works like that but the directions actually matter.
Hey, look for Die By The Sword (PC). It has some really interesting inverse-kinematic sword controls. Basically you use the mouse to control the sword and you swing it around pretty dynamically.
Did you every try Mount and Blade? It did a decent job of giving you some control over the sword. Not nearly as in-depth as Die by the Sword, but I enjoyed it.
Also, man, that game is fantastic considering it is only in pre-beta.
Really? Mount and Blade? Never heard of it. So it's in pre-beta now? Is it a full game or a user mod for something else or what?
made by a couple dudes with a huge mod community, it is also really good for what it is and is only like $10-15
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RankenphilePassersby were amazedby the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderatormod
Man I wish there was another game that has sword controlls like MGS2
I agree. Those were really nice. They weren't really necessary, though...the system for guarding was, like, "either you are guarding or you are not" and the angle of sword-slashes didn't seem to matter. But it was still cool, and it would be really cool if someone made a game where the sword works like that but the directions actually matter.
Hey, look for Die By The Sword (PC). It has some really interesting inverse-kinematic sword controls. Basically you use the mouse to control the sword and you swing it around pretty dynamically.
Did you every try Mount and Blade? It did a decent job of giving you some control over the sword. Not nearly as in-depth as Die by the Sword, but I enjoyed it.
Also, man, that game is fantastic considering it is only in pre-beta.
Really? Mount and Blade? Never heard of it. So it's in pre-beta now? Is it a full game or a user mod for something else or what?
Kind of an interesting setup. The guys making it are keeping it completely open and free to try up to, like, level 6. You can buy the whole thing for twenty bucks or so in the state it is in and get free updates for life, and the money goes toward helping fund the development of it. It's been in progress for a couple years now, and is really, really starting to come together. There's a bunch of mods out for it already, too. Check it out, I think you'd get a kick out of it. The combat is fucking wonderful - I've never played a game where mounted combat was as well done and fun as it.
It is all medieval-based and pretty realistic - no magic at all, no healing potions, reasonable representations of armor and weapons - and there is no story implemented at all, but you recruit an army from towns, you can pledge allegience to one of two factions and basically move around on an overworld map but go to smaller maps for combat. You issue commands to your troops (archers, follow me! Cavalry, charge!), train your army, develop individual skills, enter arena battles, all kinds of fun stuff.
Man I wish there was another game that has sword controlls like MGS2
I agree. Those were really nice. They weren't really necessary, though...the system for guarding was, like, "either you are guarding or you are not" and the angle of sword-slashes didn't seem to matter. But it was still cool, and it would be really cool if someone made a game where the sword works like that but the directions actually matter.
Hey, look for Die By The Sword (PC). It has some really interesting inverse-kinematic sword controls. Basically you use the mouse to control the sword and you swing it around pretty dynamically.
I thought inverse kinematics was a technique for animating joints
What does it mean in this context?
There are two basic ways to position jointed limbs: Forward Kinematics and Inverse Kinematics.
FK means starting from the "root" and working outward. Like, I bend the shoulder, and that moves the elbow, wrist, and fingers. Then I bend the elbow, and that moves the wrist and fingers. This is a bitch to work with from an artist's perspective, but it's very easy to calculate.
IK means starting from the end and working back toward the root. So like, I say "put your palm here" and the system figures out what it needs to do to get that to happen. The IK system will automatically bend the shoulder and the elbow and the wrist as needed to get the palm of your hand to go where I told it to. This is great for artists to work with, but it's way harder to program and it cannot run as fast as FK. Also, sometimes there are "impossible" scenarios, like if I tell you to put your hand 500 feet above your head; you simply cannot do it without taking your joints out of their sockets.
In many games, you'll see a combination: IK is used to make the base animations, but then, like, if your dude is leaning forward or something, the game will apply real-time FK to the spine and hip joints to make the guy lean.
In this case, it means that your mouse indicates an imaginary point in front of you. Your character will use IK to attempt to move his sword-tip to that exact point. If you, for example, put your invisible point high up and to the right, then quickly move the point (by moving your mouse) down and to the left, your guy will follow the point with his sword-tip, resulting in a down-and-to-the-left cutting motion with the sword.
In other words, all of your sword moves are fully dynamic; no canned combat animations. Your guy's upper body moves as needed to make the exact sword moves that you make, matching your speed, angle, and height with considerable precision. The only thing you can't do well is thrust the sword in and out, because the mouse is a 2D device, not a 3D device. To fix this, one mouse button makes the sword point forward further while it's held, and the sword comes back when it's released. The other mouse button turns the sword sideways so you can use it to block or parry.
It's basically fully-dynamic sword-fighting. It's limited, but it's really innovative and really cool. It's also from like 1998, so factor that in when considering how ahead of its time it was.
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RankenphilePassersby were amazedby the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderatormod
edited April 2007
yeah, M&B doesn't have nearly that depth. Basically blocking and swinging is controlled by pre-canned strieks that are dictated as to which direction you are aiming your mouse. Point to the right and you start out with a wide slice from the right moving toward the left. Point to the left and he'll make a downward/left stroke starting above the left shoulder. Start above your head and he'll make a downward strike from above. Start below your centerpoint and he'll usually make a stab.
yeah, M&B doesn't have nearly that depth. Basically blocking and swinging is controlled by pre-canned strieks that are dictated as to which direction you are aiming your mouse. Point to the right and you start out with a wide slice from the right moving toward the left. Point to the left and he'll make a downward/left stroke starting above the left shoulder. Start above your head and he'll make a downward strike from above. Start below your centerpoint and he'll usually make a stab.
Oh that's cool, that's similar to how Thief did it except that it wasn't a big part of Thief, and also this sounds more in-depth. That's a fine system.
Posts
I can't understand why you would put "aim" on the right analog and "fire" on a face button. Come on, stupid, if they're aiming with the right analog, they do not have their thumb over the face buttons! Use the triggers, you've got four of them!
I hate that shit. That was probably my only complaint about Shadow of the Colossus, that the poor camera could only be corrected with the right stick, but you needed your thumb free at critical moments to jump or make attacks, each of which were virtually impossible when the camera was busy staring up some stone giant's asshole for some reason.
Right hand is thumb on analog stick, index finger on face buttons and right bumper/R1, middle finger for trigger/R2.
Only way to play doggs.
"For some reason" = "Made in Japan"
I am really trying to get this stereotype that all Japanese are ass freaks going.
That's fucking stupid. The PS2 controller is very well-designed, ergonomically speaking, and you've found the most cramp-prone, yoga-like, unergonomic contortion of the hand possible. Why don't you just play with your face (nose) on the face buttons and your tongue pulling the right analog?
The L/R buttons were practically made for your index/middle fingers, respectively.
That's what I do. Index on R1, Middle on R2.
But if I need a face button I'd rather not give up my ability to aim.
Thats what the Green Thumb button layout is for...
Makes pushing down the right stick do a melee attack.
What?
You hold L2 and use the right stick. Not that hard.
Heck you can just set it in the menu to make camera control go off L2+Right Stick
I blame the Dualshock 2 for giving developers too many options. They haven't got a fucking clue what to do with the thing half the time.
I knew about the latter and didn't want to do that
first I've heard of the former though
I don't know, I kind of find that difficult.
I don't think there are too many options, and you can always just, you know, not use some of the features, or use them for things that are really unimportant.
An easy example would be the L trigger on Zelda:OoT, which I realize is not a PS2 game. Since you use the center analog and Z button to play that game, the L trigger is way out of reach. So what does it do? Turns on/off the minimap. That's a neat little function that isn't very important, is rarely ever used, and never needs to be used quickly in combat situations.
In MGS2, to use another example, the right analog did not do anything at all, unless you had the sword drawn. If you did have the sword out, it worked nicely with the face buttons. Your "block" command was on a trigger (which was also unused unless you had the sword drawn). Your regular "attack" face button was just used to flip between the blunt side and the sharp side, which took the character a second to do and wasn't something you'd ever want to do while fighting. Your "punch" button and "roll" buttons were pretty much the same as before, but since punching and rolling were mutually exclusive with slashing and stabbing, you could afford to let go of the stick to use those features. You also generally knew at least a second ahead of time when you wanted to punch or roll, so you could always move your hand early. Even if you wanted to punch or roll right after a sword slash, the recovery time on the end of the slash was long enough to cover the time it took to change from stick to face buttons.
Tenchu 3 had the stick used for the camera. You really didn't need that feature too often, because holding the "stealth," "strafe," or "first-person" buttons would automatically reset the camera angle, and running in a direction would cause the camera to drift back to the default angle gradually anyway. For exploring, sometimes you wanted it, though. But not often, because you could look around much better with FPV mode (at least, that's what I tended to do). So it was a neat function, but again, not a very important one.
Another really good example of an often-ignored feature is the analog nature of the buttons. Hell, I bet most people kind of forget that those buttons can tell the difference between a hard press and a soft press. Even the d-pad can! (I think!) MGS uses that soft-press system to let you point guns without shooting them, or to control how far you lean in FPV mode. But most games just plain don't use the feature; Namco apparently didn't feel that they had to add in "light press" attacks and "heavy press" attacks to Soul Calibur 2 or 3. You can just, you know, not use the feature if you don't need it.
I think that developers who misuse it are the ones to blame. The controller provides a lot of choices, and it's up to the designer to decide how to implement his or her vision.
Long post is looooooong.
OH FUCK HE'S GOT A GUN AND HE'S TRAINED TO USE IT ON NONCOMBATANTS EVERYONE GET AWAY FROM HIM
2 l8 kekekeke *BLAM*
No no, he's ok, because he only plays the Government sanctioned Army game.
That game has also made me as effective as an EMT when it comes to dealing with any first aid situation.
Thanks to videogames I am crazy-good at being a defense lawyer, an alien or a large-breasted, female archaeologist.
I am awesome at crushing flying turtles when I'm on mushrooms.
Sometimes it does!
If I get 100 of the coins, I can come back to life when I die!
Sometimes the bullet bounces off walls a couple times.
Pretty sweet.
Signal before you change lanes assholes!
I agree. Those were really nice. They weren't really necessary, though...the system for guarding was, like, "either you are guarding or you are not" and the angle of sword-slashes didn't seem to matter. But it was still cool, and it would be really cool if someone made a game where the sword works like that but the directions actually matter.
Hey, look for Die By The Sword (PC). It has some really interesting inverse-kinematic sword controls. Basically you use the mouse to control the sword and you swing it around pretty dynamically.
I saw some large pots, like just big brown clay-looking urns, on a balcony as I drove through a rich neighborhood and I just thought "so does that have big coins in it, or is it orbs to power up my fighting skill?"
Did you every try Mount and Blade? It did a decent job of giving you some control over the sword. Not nearly as in-depth as Die by the Sword, but I enjoyed it.
Also, man, that game is fantastic considering it is only in pre-beta.
I thought inverse kinematics was a technique for animating joints
What does it mean in this context?
Really? Mount and Blade? Never heard of it. So it's in pre-beta now? Is it a full game or a user mod for something else or what?
made by a couple dudes with a huge mod community, it is also really good for what it is and is only like $10-15
Kind of an interesting setup. The guys making it are keeping it completely open and free to try up to, like, level 6. You can buy the whole thing for twenty bucks or so in the state it is in and get free updates for life, and the money goes toward helping fund the development of it. It's been in progress for a couple years now, and is really, really starting to come together. There's a bunch of mods out for it already, too. Check it out, I think you'd get a kick out of it. The combat is fucking wonderful - I've never played a game where mounted combat was as well done and fun as it.
It is all medieval-based and pretty realistic - no magic at all, no healing potions, reasonable representations of armor and weapons - and there is no story implemented at all, but you recruit an army from towns, you can pledge allegience to one of two factions and basically move around on an overworld map but go to smaller maps for combat. You issue commands to your troops (archers, follow me! Cavalry, charge!), train your army, develop individual skills, enter arena battles, all kinds of fun stuff.
There are two basic ways to position jointed limbs: Forward Kinematics and Inverse Kinematics.
FK means starting from the "root" and working outward. Like, I bend the shoulder, and that moves the elbow, wrist, and fingers. Then I bend the elbow, and that moves the wrist and fingers. This is a bitch to work with from an artist's perspective, but it's very easy to calculate.
IK means starting from the end and working back toward the root. So like, I say "put your palm here" and the system figures out what it needs to do to get that to happen. The IK system will automatically bend the shoulder and the elbow and the wrist as needed to get the palm of your hand to go where I told it to. This is great for artists to work with, but it's way harder to program and it cannot run as fast as FK. Also, sometimes there are "impossible" scenarios, like if I tell you to put your hand 500 feet above your head; you simply cannot do it without taking your joints out of their sockets.
In many games, you'll see a combination: IK is used to make the base animations, but then, like, if your dude is leaning forward or something, the game will apply real-time FK to the spine and hip joints to make the guy lean.
In this case, it means that your mouse indicates an imaginary point in front of you. Your character will use IK to attempt to move his sword-tip to that exact point. If you, for example, put your invisible point high up and to the right, then quickly move the point (by moving your mouse) down and to the left, your guy will follow the point with his sword-tip, resulting in a down-and-to-the-left cutting motion with the sword.
In other words, all of your sword moves are fully dynamic; no canned combat animations. Your guy's upper body moves as needed to make the exact sword moves that you make, matching your speed, angle, and height with considerable precision. The only thing you can't do well is thrust the sword in and out, because the mouse is a 2D device, not a 3D device. To fix this, one mouse button makes the sword point forward further while it's held, and the sword comes back when it's released. The other mouse button turns the sword sideways so you can use it to block or parry.
It's basically fully-dynamic sword-fighting. It's limited, but it's really innovative and really cool. It's also from like 1998, so factor that in when considering how ahead of its time it was.
Oh that's cool, that's similar to how Thief did it except that it wasn't a big part of Thief, and also this sounds more in-depth. That's a fine system.