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No Grenades in Team Fortress 2...

ParisInFlamesParisInFlames Registered User regular
edited September 2007 in Games and Technology
So it was mentioned on the newest GFW Radio during their TF2 discussion, they dropped the bomb(lol?) that grenades, both regular, and class specific ones have been eliminated.

As a die-hard TFC player for a good 3 years, this totally stunned me. Grenades, especially concussion grenades, rocket jumping, and incredible speed are when boiled down define T.F. for me.

I know I'm not the only TF/TFC fan out here. What comes to mind when you hear this? Dumbed down for consoles definitely pops into my mind. Which is also is brought up and examined on the podcast as well. I'm not going to bash the game before it's out. I'll definitely give it a fair shake. But this has shaken my enthusiasm for the game a bit.

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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    "I'm not going to bash the game before it comes out."

    But you are okay with calling console games dumbed down.

    Zombiemambo on
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    PancakePancake Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Definitely done because the game was dumbed down for consoles.

    There has never been a multiplayer game on consoles that had grenades in it, especially used for anything like jumping.

    Pancake on
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    XieflowXieflow Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    How the hell is taking out grenades "dumbing the game down" for consoles? Hell, grenades are a huge part of some of the biggest console FPSes.

    I'm talking to the FP, and helping re-affirm Pancake's sars chasm.

    Xieflow on
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    Kerbob97Kerbob97 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    methinks you forgot the /sarcasm tag there pancake.

    Kerbob97 on
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    FunkyWaltDoggFunkyWaltDogg Columbia, SCRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    This is fairly shocking. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.

    FunkyWaltDogg on
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    KazhiimKazhiim __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2007
    But how can I play my concjump maps now?

    Kazhiim on
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2007
    Grenades were useless for me in TFC.. so.. I guess this doesn't affect my opinion of the game.

    And it's so easy for people to play the "dumbed down for consoles!" card. What the fuck.

    FyreWulff on
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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2007
    This is the same thing that happened to Tribes 3, essentially.

    Imma go play some MegaTF now.

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    Grenades were useless for me in TFC.. so.. I guess this doesn't affect my opinion of the game.

    And it's so easy for people to play the "dumbed down for consoles!" card. What the fuck.

    I've decided to link this article to anybody who feels like being a dick.

    Zombiemambo on
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    agoajagoaj Top Tier One FearRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Very interesting move. I wonder why they made this decision and if there is going to be a replacement skill.
    I mean how are you going to take down my turrets if you don't have any grenades?

    agoaj on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    agoaj wrote: »
    Very interesting move. I wonder why they made this decision and if there is going to be a replacement skill.
    I mean how are you going to take down my turrets if you don't have any grenades?

    Well obviously there won't be turrets. And while we're at it...

    Guns!? How in the world will a console gamer be able to understand? We'd better remove them. Maybe give them a stick.

    Zombiemambo on
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    PancakePancake Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    agoaj wrote: »
    Very interesting move. I wonder why they made this decision and if there is going to be a replacement skill.
    I mean how are you going to take down my turrets if you don't have any grenades?

    Yeah, because grenades were always the only way. Regular weapons like rocket launchers or chainguns or even nailguns didn't make a single dent in the impenetrable super armor the turrets were covered with.

    Pancake on
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    ParisInFlamesParisInFlames Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    "I'm not going to bash the game before it comes out."

    But you are okay with calling console games dumbed down.

    That's not bashing the game, just pointing out the limitations of a controller.

    ParisInFlames on
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    GertBeefGertBeef Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    No grenade maps will make me something something.

    GertBeef on
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    PancakePancake Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    "I'm not going to bash the game before it comes out."

    But you are okay with calling console games dumbed down.

    That's not bashing the game, just pointing out the limitations of a controller.

    Controllers have enough buttons for a fucking grenade button or two. God...

    Pancake on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    "I'm not going to bash the game before it comes out."

    But you are okay with calling console games dumbed down.

    That's not bashing the game, just pointing out the limitations of a controller.

    Yes, controller's don't have buttons. Especially more than one button.

    Zombiemambo on
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    SurikoSuriko AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    "I'm not going to bash the game before it comes out."

    But you are okay with calling console games dumbed down.

    That's not bashing the game, just pointing out the limitations of a controller.

    I'm mainly a PC guy but I can recall Halo, Halo 2 and CoD 2 having had grenades...

    Suriko on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Suriko wrote: »
    "I'm not going to bash the game before it comes out."

    But you are okay with calling console games dumbed down.

    That's not bashing the game, just pointing out the limitations of a controller.

    I'm mainly a PC guy but I can recall Halo, Halo 2 and CoD 2 having had grenades...

    There was even a button just for using grenades. Impressive for such a primitive device, I know.

    Zombiemambo on
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    Neo RasaNeo Rasa Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Suriko wrote: »
    "I'm not going to bash the game before it comes out."

    But you are okay with calling console games dumbed down.

    That's not bashing the game, just pointing out the limitations of a controller.

    I'm mainly a PC guy but I can recall Halo, Halo 2 and CoD 2 having had grenades...

    I wouldn't bother conversing. There's too many PC gamers (and sadly developers) that think consoles stopped evolving after the Atari 2600.

    With that in mind, rather than talking about the merits and flaws of PC and console gaming, has anyone here played Team Fortress? Did you use grenades a lot?

    Given that they seem to have known for a while now that it won't have grenades, I doubt the gameplay will be directly hurt, since the maps/classes will be designed around this.

    Neo Rasa on
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    Kerbob97Kerbob97 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Actually just finished up with the Beta for Shadowrun. The devs had some competitive players from console and pc playing against each other, and neither side had a competitive advantage. They said they were really proud of how well it had come out.

    Kerbob97 on
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    scootchscootch Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I'm okay with the changes for now. long as the game plays well.
    I don't want same game with cartoon models. I really want a different experience. I do hope they're not eliminating many strategic options by getting rid of grenades.. hopefully there will be something else to make up for it.

    scootch on
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2007
    Fuck, how many keys do PC FPSers use anyway? Like, 3-4, max?


    Also, the N64 had less buttons than the current generation, yet Perfect Dark managed to have grenades. Hell, no FPS has even used that cool weapon selection system they had when you held down A.

    FyreWulff on
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    ParisInFlamesParisInFlames Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Pancake wrote: »
    agoaj wrote: »
    Very interesting move. I wonder why they made this decision and if there is going to be a replacement skill.
    I mean how are you going to take down my turrets if you don't have any grenades?

    Yeah, because grenades were always the only way. Regular weapons like rocket launchers or chainguns or even nailguns didn't make a single dent in the impenetrable super armor the turrets were covered with.
    None of those DID make a dent when an engy was crouched behind it whacking away.

    Zombiemambo stop trying to make this into PC vs console. This is a game whos roots go back to quake back in 1996. You'd be as wary of a new street fighter if they decided to release it on consoles and PC at the same time while making it WASD friendly. So don't give me this BS about consoles are as perfectly equipped to do a through and through PC shooter as the PC itself. There are limitations that are usually designed around to work in the console space, such as Halo or Goldeneye. And THAT is what i'm worried was a compromise the guys made in the design to be able to function in a console environment.

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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Pancake wrote: »
    agoaj wrote: »
    Very interesting move. I wonder why they made this decision and if there is going to be a replacement skill.
    I mean how are you going to take down my turrets if you don't have any grenades?

    Yeah, because grenades were always the only way. Regular weapons like rocket launchers or chainguns or even nailguns didn't make a single dent in the impenetrable super armor the turrets were covered with.
    None of those DID make a dent when an engy was crouched behind it whacking away.

    Zombiemambo stop trying to make this into PC vs console. This is a game whos roots go back to quake back in 1996. You'd be as wary of a new street fighter if they decided to release it on consoles and PC at the same time while making it WASD friendly. So don't give me this BS about consoles are as perfectly equipped to do a through and through PC shooter as the PC itself. There are limitations that are usually designed around to work in the console space, such as Halo or Goldeneye. And THAT is what i'm worried was a compromise the guys made in the design to be able to function in a console environment.

    I'm not trying to make this out to be a fight between them, I'm calling you a freaking snob.

    Zombiemambo on
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    ecchiecchi Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Pancake wrote: »
    Yeah, because grenades were always the only way. Regular weapons like rocket launchers or chainguns or even nailguns didn't make a single dent in the impenetrable super armor the turrets were covered with.
    Soldiers and HWGs are too slow to play offense on a CTF map, and nailguns don't really exist any more as far as I know.

    The game is being refocused into command-point maps, where soldier and demoman are viable offensive classes, so it's not a huge problem. But I always preferred CTF, and I think it will really suffer from lack of concs -- defense will simply have too much time to recover between offensive runs.

    I don't think this is happening because they're dumbing the game down for consoles. I think it's happening because Robin Walker just plain doesn't like TF/TFC very much any more and wants to make something new. Which is totally great, except for the fact that so much of what made TF great in the first place wasn't really intentional. Valve is taking a game that was accidentally near-perfect and trying to 'fix' the accidental parts with a lot of forethought. I'm not going to like TF2 nearly as much as TFC, but I'm sure it's going to be a great game. Just not what I want.

    ecchi on
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2007
    No, they got rid of it because it probably didn't lend itself well to the new gameplay Just because older FPSes let you launch yourself like a dead body over a castle wall with a grenade doesn't mean they always must do it.

    FyreWulff on
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    ParisInFlamesParisInFlames Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    There's grenades, and then there's grenades.

    ParisInFlames on
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    thorgotthorgot there is special providence in the fall of a sparrowRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I'm pretty sure they announced this months ago.

    thorgot on
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    MonoxideMonoxide Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2007
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    Fuck, how many keys do PC FPSers use anyway? Like, 3-4, max?


    Also, the N64 had less buttons than the current generation, yet Perfect Dark managed to have grenades. Hell, no FPS has even used that cool weapon selection system they had when you held down A.

    I've got an 8 button mouse and for Enemy Territory and UT2k4, I used all of them.8-)

    Monoxide on
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    Neo RasaNeo Rasa Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Pancake wrote: »
    agoaj wrote: »
    Very interesting move. I wonder why they made this decision and if there is going to be a replacement skill.
    I mean how are you going to take down my turrets if you don't have any grenades?

    Yeah, because grenades were always the only way. Regular weapons like rocket launchers or chainguns or even nailguns didn't make a single dent in the impenetrable super armor the turrets were covered with.
    None of those DID make a dent when an engy was crouched behind it whacking away.

    Zombiemambo stop trying to make this into PC vs console. This is a game whos roots go back to quake back in 1996. You'd be as wary of a new street fighter if they decided to release it on consoles and PC at the same time while making it WASD friendly. So don't give me this BS about consoles are as perfectly equipped to do a through and through PC shooter as the PC itself. There are limitations that are usually designed around to work in the console space, such as Halo or Goldeneye. And THAT is what i'm worried was a compromise the guys made in the design to be able to function in a console environment.

    I'm not trying to make this out to be a fight between them, I'm calling you a freaking snob.

    Don't feed the trolls...

    Surely though, the lack of grenades stems from the way they want to design the game in general.

    If their true reason is to simplify it for consoles then the game will be just as hamstrung and just as much wasted potential as Invisible War due to developer incompetence.

    Without grenades, I'm assuming they're going to have a larger variety of heavy weapons across the classes?

    Neo Rasa on
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    ArcticXCArcticXC Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    FUCK

    Or you know, I'll wait 'til it comes out and buy it because it's the only FPS I play so yeah. I'm sick of waiting I just want to play it. :(

    ArcticXC on
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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2007
    Neo Rasa wrote: »
    Suriko wrote: »
    "I'm not going to bash the game before it comes out."

    But you are okay with calling console games dumbed down.

    That's not bashing the game, just pointing out the limitations of a controller.

    I'm mainly a PC guy but I can recall Halo, Halo 2 and CoD 2 having had grenades...

    I wouldn't bother conversing. There's too many PC gamers (and sadly developers) that think consoles stopped evolving after the Atari 2600.

    With that in mind, rather than talking about the merits and flaws of PC and console gaming, has anyone here played Team Fortress? Did you use grenades a lot?

    Given that they seem to have known for a while now that it won't have grenades, I doubt the gameplay will be directly hurt, since the maps/classes will be designed around this.

    I played the hell out of CustomTF, MegaTF, and TFC when I was a young'un. While M- and CTF were fairly complex and deep, the future iterations were continually more slimmed down. This wasn't a bad thing, considering they held over what made CTF so much fun when they modded Half-Life for it.

    That said, this is a seriously stupid thing for them to do. Most classes had a useful, unique grenade. The soldier had the nail grenade, the engineer had the EMP, the spy had the stun, the demolition man was fucking built around a grenade-style gun (I don't think they're removing that, because that would be just plain horrible, but just the freely-tossed grenades from the sound of it), and the medic even had his own unique grenade in most iterations.

    Yes, grenades were a fairly integral aspect of the gameplay and strategy. Their removal makes no sense whatsoever, other than them trying to dumb down the game. That's not to say that they're trying to dumb it down for consoles, but they're definitely trying to dumb it down.

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    KazhiimKazhiim __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2007
    It's fun to think that perhaps TFC is being redesigned, and the redesign calls for the removal of grenades

    I mean, it's a sequel, not a remake


    Still. No concjump :(

    Kazhiim on
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    JJJJ DailyStormer Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Good, I fucking hate being killed by grenades in CSS.

    Never played TF. From what I heard there is infinite grenades at spawn so no more spamming this way.

    Like in CS it turns into an awp whore fest unless the server restricts it to 1 per team or none at all.

    JJ on
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    Neo RasaNeo Rasa Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Yes, grenades were a fairly integral aspect of the gameplay and strategy. Their removal makes no sense whatsoever, other than them trying to dumb down the game. That's not to say that they're trying to dumb it down for consoles, but they're definitely trying to dumb it down.

    That's a damn shame.

    Granted some of these abilities you described could be replaced with various firearms, but we'll see. Hopefully there'll be more to the classes than just differences in hit points, endurance and weapon damage.

    Neo Rasa on
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    SurikoSuriko AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    FyreWulff wrote:
    Fuck, how many keys do PC FPSers use anyway? Like, 3-4, max?


    Also, the N64 had less buttons than the current generation, yet Perfect Dark managed to have grenades. Hell, no FPS has even used that cool weapon selection system they had when you held down A.
    WSAD for basic movement. Left and right mouse buttons for fire/alternate fire. Scroll wheel and keyboard number buttons for weapon selection (we'll say... 5). E and W for lean, if implemented. Tab for scoreboard. z for prone and ctrl for crouch. Sometimes shift for holding breath or extending supports with sniper rifles. Tilde for console. Printscreen for screen capture. This is just taking most basic FPSs into account, and not things like tactical shooters and others. So that's 19 keys right there.

    I've tried using a console for FPSs and it just felt really wrong, no matter how much i tried to get used to it. On the other hand, I can't imagine playing Super Smash Brothers with some buds on a LAN instead of in front of a big TV talking, shouting, moving and generally making fools of ourselves.

    Suriko on
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    Kerbob97Kerbob97 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    ecchi wrote: »
    *snip*
    Soldiers and HWGs are too slow to play offense on a CTF map,*snip

    if done well hmg are the roxxor. Shit. This is making me miss Shadowrun soooo bad right now. I finally found a game that actually reminded me of TFC, and the beta is over. Now I have to wait till June. :cry:

    Kerbob97 on
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    ParisInFlamesParisInFlames Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I was a little confused listening to the podcast when they talked about the Scout and having a double jump. Because I read that the new scout will be fast and light enough to through timed jumps be able to jump across a short expanse of water by jumping on the water itself. But that sounded completely different. It may be two different abilities. But that confused me a bit.

    All I know now is the scout, pyro, medic, and to a lesser extent the spy are being reworked. Those things I fully expected. But this certainly threw me for a loop.

    ParisInFlames on
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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2007
    Kazhiim wrote: »
    It's fun to think that perhaps TFC is being redesigned, and the redesign calls for the removal of grenades

    I mean, it's a sequel, not a remake


    Still. No concjump :(

    I mean, yeah, develop the formula, flesh it out, streamline it and make it modern. But what are they doing here? It feels like they're almost trying to kill the spirit of the game. That's what I'm mostly afraid of here. If they can attain the same sort of function from things other than grenades, then I'm fine. But, to me, progression usually involves cutting things that don't work, and developing things that do work. This is neither, this is removing something that did work, and that worked very well.

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I never liked all the stupid shit you had to pull with grenades to be competitive in TFC anyways. It'll be nice to have entryways and bases that aren't trivialized by conc jumping.

    captaink on
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